Scout + Ranger = Scouter!

[shaka gl]

So, I was rather bored last night, and I decided to take a look at the Ranger 4/Scout 1 I was going to play. Then I remembered something someone said in this forum: The Ranger`s got some silly stuff in his mechanics, and the Scout kinda steps in his toes if you really look at it. So, why shouldn´t I combine the things that make most sense about both of them? And the Scouter was born:




Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 1st favored enemy, Track, Wild empathy, Trapfinding
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Skirmish (+1d6), Fast Movement
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Endurance, Bonus Feat
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC),
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 2nd favored enemy
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Skirmish (+2d6, +1 AC), Evasion
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Woodland stride, Bonus Feat
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC)
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Swift tracker
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 Skirmish (+3d6, +2 AC)
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Bonus Feat
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Skirmish (+3d6, +3 AC)
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Camouflage
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Skirmish (+4d6, +3 AC)
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 4th favored enemy, Bonus Feat
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Skirmish (+4d6, +4 AC)
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Hide in plain sight,
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Skirmish (+5d6, +4 AC )
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Bonus Feat
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 5th favored enemy, Skirmish (+5d6, +5 AC)

First, I took the Ranger and left the saves and BAB untouched. I gave him 8 sp/lvl, but nerfed his HD to d6.

Second, Class Skills. I took the ranger`s list and added some of the scout`s: Disable Device, Escape Artist, Sense Motive, Speak Language and Tumble.

Third, Class Abilities. Combat Styles and Spells go right off the board. We bring instead Skirmish (but at 1 lvl later), Fast Movement and the Bonus Feats. We give him Trapfinding, also. Lvl 9 is empty now, so we move Swift Tracker, cause nobody will care about it. Evasion is at lvl 4 for the Scout and 9 for the Ranger, so we bring it to lvl 6 and everybody is happy.

So, except from one little detail, we are set.

The Animal Companion: I like the idea, but at first I thought it would make the class overpowered. Until I compared the class at lvl 5 with a Ranger 4/Scout 1 with the Swift Hunter feat from Complete Scoundrel (which lets you stack Skirmish and Favored Enemys). Basically, a Scouter is losing the Animal Companion, the d8 Hit Dice, getting the Skirmish later and gaining some skill points, 1 feat and 1 point of BAB.

I would like to hear your opinions, especially with the Animal Companion thing.

[Rierdrex]

Personnally, I've never really liked the animal companion, so the present scouter seems quite fine according to me. I like the mix of the two classes, and the mix seems great as it is. According to your analysis, I suggest you give the scouter the d8 hit-die if you're really worried about it being underpowered, but I like it the way it is.

[Legoman]

8 Skills a level is pretty much a hallmark of the rogue. Otherwise.... I like it. Lot of cool flavor too. Maybe there should be a 20th level capstone, that, for the TWF flavor, might allow for a spring attack with both weapons (To make use of skirmish), and for the archery, something cool and impressive as well...

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

2 words: Gestalt character.

The first thing I thought of was another name: Ranout

[Proven_Paradox]

Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his power level!?

*coughs*

Legoman, the Scout class from Complete Adventurer has 8 skill points per level as well, so that's not really a rogue exclusive.

That said, I think an animal companion wouldn't be that over-powering here, especially if you're losing spells can downgrading to d6 hitdice. Perhaps not the full druid progression, but I think you should either do that or bump up the hitdice.

[shaka gl]

2 words: Gestalt character.

The first thing I thought of was another name: Ranout

My soon-to-be teammates are calling him Rangout, actually...

[FdL]

I like Scrounger best :p

So what's the word, guys? I trust you in your asessment of this class. Is this a honest, viable alternative class to play? Would you allow it in your campaign?

Because I have already ruled out another player's alternative house-ruled class, though that one was really not very well thought or balanced. I want to be fair in that respect.

[Legoman]

I like Scrounger best :p

So what's the word, guys? I trust you in your asessment of this class. Is this a honest, viable alternative class to play? Would you allow it in your campaign?

Because I have already ruled out another player's alternative house-ruled class, though that one was really not very well thought or balanced. I want to be fair in that respect.

If you would normally allow the spell compendium, I don't see why you wouldn't allow this guy. (Arrowstorm - everyone within range of your bow instantly provokes an AoO.... You can take these AoO's with your bow... ouch.)

Personally, I like this a lot better than the standard ranger. The only concern I'd have is a Greatsword-wielding 'Scouter,' with all the charge-related feats (Leap attack, shock trooper)... I don't think the extra dice are multiplied, but they're still getting that in addition to the already intense damage of that build.

Hell, a L20 Scouter with a greatsword....

Power Attack
Leap Attack - Power Attack Damage Tripled
Fav Power attack - Damage Tripled (So, x5)
Shock Trooper - Take penalty out of your AC, instead of BaB...
(Improved Bull Rush - pre-req)

So, assume we have a +3 Brilliant Energy Dragon's Bane Greatsword. Dragon as favored enemy, since level 1 (Not a bad call....)

+10 tohit from favored enemy/bane, +3 from weapon. We sac 13 tohit from our attack bonus, and another 7 from our AC... with a strength of 20, we're hitting that AC of 10 just fine.

The damage is intense... Say a strength of 28.

On our initial attack, we're doing:

2d6 (Weapon) + 3 (Weapon) + 8 (Favored) +13 (STR) + 100 (Power attack 20 x5) +2d6 (Bane) +5d6 (Skirmish)...

Meh, I guess it's not that bad. But still, if he lives through the round, and gets a full attack off... Scary...

[pestilenceawaits]

On our initial attack, we're doing:

2d6 (Weapon) + 3 (Weapon) + 8 (Favored) +13 (STR) + 100 (Power attack 20 x5) +2d6 (Bane) +5d6 (Skirmish)...

Meh, I guess it's not that bad. But still, if he lives through the round, and gets a full attack off... Scary...

If you are letting a dragon be charged and his armor class is low enough for a full power attack to hit you need to rethink the way you are playing dragons.:smallsmile:

I like the class I always wished the ranger was more like the scout.

[Legoman]

If you are letting a dragon be charged and his armor class is low enough for a full power attack to hit you need to rethink the way you are playing dragons.:smallsmile:

I like the class I always wished the ranger was more like the scout.

Brilliant energy makes his AC effectively 10, and leap attack lets you make a charge as part of a jump.

A jump like, lets say, from the back of a griffin.

[PhoeKun]

Brilliant Energy specifically mentions that natural armor still applies.

edit: oh, right. There's a class to comment on. *cough*

This seems to be a fairly intuitive combination of Ranger and Scout. There's not a lot to say, except that I don't think d6 hit dice are necessary, and may in fact be crippling (it's a primary combat class - it needs hp!).

[Legoman]

Whooops, I've been doing that wrong all this time then...

Still, that's why you have Shock Trooper... just take it out of AC, you'll still get at least a +30 to your attack.

The problem, of course, is how to live through the round...

[PhoeKun]

Well, let's take a look at this scenario, shall we?

You've got a Level 20 Scouter intensely focused in the realm of dragon slaying (a risky business, that).

Let's put an appropriate CR dragon, such as a Very Old Red in his path. The Scouter (unwisely) leaps at the dragon, charging and taking a -22 penalty to his AC. The dragon tries not to die laughing, then takes his AoO. He knows the Scouter is a sitting duck, and dumps 20 points of attack into his Power Attack (he could do more, but he's being nice). Take another -4 off for his favorite feat ever; Awesome Blow. With a +16 attack remaining to him, he smacks the Scouter with his bite, forcing (at a minimum) a DC 37 Reflex save. Now, instead of ever getting his attack off, the Scouter is just outside the dragon's threat range, and prone. Soon, he'll be eaten.

In any case, that a class can potentially do really well in a single situation that he is designed to excel in is hardly a sign of potential brokenness.

[TRM]

It looks like a fairly balanced class. D8 HD is a must! **Especially** without the animal companion.
I should try it out in a game....

[Yakk]

Use [ code ] to keep whitespace formatting and have fixed-width characters.

Clearly this class should be called a "Scooter".

[Fax Celestis]

use {table} to make a table.
in the format of:
{table=head}level | bab | save | save | save | special
1 | +1 | +2 | +2 | +0 | skirmish
2 | +2 | +3 | +3 | +0 | favored enemy
{/table}
etc. Just use [] instead of {}.

[shaka gl]

What do you think about Fort saves? they should be good (as the Ranger) or bad (as the Scout)?

[FdL]

If you would normally allow the spell compendium, I don't see why you wouldn't allow this guy. (Arrowstorm - everyone within range of your bow instantly provokes an AoO.... You can take these AoO's with your bow... ouch.)

Personally, I like this a lot better than the standard ranger. The only concern I'd have is a Greatsword-wielding 'Scouter,' with all the charge-related feats (Leap attack, shock trooper)... I don't think the extra dice are multiplied, but they're still getting that in addition to the already intense damage of that build.

Hell, a L20 Scouter with a greatsword....

Power Attack
Leap Attack - Power Attack Damage Tripled
Fav Power attack - Damage Tripled (So, x5)
Shock Trooper - Take penalty out of your AC, instead of BaB...
(Improved Bull Rush - pre-req)

*snip*


It's ok, he's not that kind of player, so no risk of overwinking.

And it's not against a regular ranger you'd have to compare it to. In any case compare it with a multiclassed Ranger/Scout.

[shaka gl]

Personally, I like this a lot better than the standard ranger.


This seems to be a fairly intuitive combination of Ranger and Scout. There's not a lot to say, except that I don't think d6 hit dice are necessary, and may in fact be crippling (it's a primary combat class - it needs hp!).

That makes me happy :smallbiggrin:

[Proven_Paradox]

I would allow this class in my campaigns, but houserule that its hitdice are d8. Seriously, for a primary combat class, d6 is just not enough. The rogue can pull it off because if s/he's in direct combat, s/he's already failed. This guy is supposed to be in the fray, so he needs the HP to stay there for a few rounds.

[Yakk]

So I can actually read the table, I formatted it:


Level BaB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 1st favored enemy, Track, Wild empathy, Trapfinding
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Skirmish (+1d6), Fast Movement
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Endurance, Bonus Feat
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC),
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 2nd favored enemy
6th +6 +5 +5 +2 Skirmish (+2d6, +1 AC), Evasion
7th +7 +5 +5 +2 Woodland stride, Bonus Feat
8th +8 +6 +6 +2 Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC)
9th +9 +6 +6 +3 Swift tracker
10th +10 +7 +7 +3 Skirmish (+3d6, +2 AC)
11th +11 +7 +7 +3 Bonus Feat
12th +12 +8 +8 +4 Skirmish (+3d6, +3 AC)
13th +13 +8 +8 +4 Camouflage
14th +14 +9 +9 +4 Skirmish (+4d6, +3 AC)
15th +15 +9 +9 +5 4th favored enemy, Bonus Feat
16th +16 +10 +10 +5 Skirmish (+4d6, +4 AC)
17th +17 +10 +10 +5 Hide in plain sight,
18th +18 +11 +11 +6 Skirmish (+5d6, +4 AC )
19th +19 +11 +11 +6 Bonus Feat
20th +20 +12 +12 +6 5th favored enemy, Skirmish (+5d6, +5 AC)

[Yakk]

Advice: Drop the Bonus Feats on levels where you gain other abilities.

Drop your fort save to poor.

Up to d8 HD.

[Kylos]

My opinion:

Drop the Fort save to bad, take away Endurance as a bonus feat. Drop Wild Empathy (Although it's mostly a flavor issue - I just think that Wild Empathy should be paired with nature-related spells, and if you're removing one, the other should go with it.)

Make the Hit Die a d8, add the Scout's Battle Fortitude class feature, make some alterations to the class skills (Balance, for example, is one that fits but was left out, whereas I don't know if Sense Motive seems like a skill well-suited to this type of character.) Add Uncanny Dodge and Freedom of Movement.

Also, add the Two-Weapon Fighting feats and Dual Strike (CAd) to the bonus feat list.

[shaka gl]

Drop the Fort save to bad, take away Endurance as a bonus feat. Drop Wild Empathy (Although it's mostly a flavor issue - I just think that Wild Empathy should be paired with nature-related spells, and if you're removing one, the other should go with it.)

Make the Hit Die a d8, add the Scout's Battle Fortitude class feature, make some alterations to the class skills (Balance, for example, is one that fits but was left out, whereas I don't know if Sense Motive seems like a skill well-suited to this type of character.) Add Uncanny Dodge and Freedom of Movement.

Also, add the Two-Weapon Fighting feats and Dual Strike (CAd) to the bonus feat list.

I agree with most of what you say, with the exception of taking Endurance away. If Its TOO MUCH, it could probably come later on, but i really think it should be there. Why do you think it should go?

[shaka gl]

So, the Souter v.2.0.:

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st| +1| +0| +2| +0| 1st favored enemy, Track, Trapfinding
2nd| +2| +0| +3| +0| Skirmish (+1d6), Fast Movement, Battle Fortitude +1
3rd| +3| +1| +3| +1| Uncanny Dodge, Bonus Feat
4th|+4| +1| +4| +1| Skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC)
5th|+5| +1| +4| +1| 2nd favored enemy
6th|+6/+1| +2| +5| +2| Skirmish (+2d6, +1 AC), Evasion
7th| +7/+2| +2| +5| +2| Woodland stride, Bonus Feat
8th| +8/+3| +2| +6| +2| Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC)
9th|+9/+4| +3| +6 | +3| Swift tracker
10th|+10/+5| +3| +7| +3| 3rd favored enemy, Skirmish (+3d6, +2 AC)
11th|+11/+6/+1| +3| +7| +3| Bonus Feat, Battle Fortitude +2
12th| +12/+7/+2| +4| +8| +4| Skirmish (+3d6, +3 AC)
13th| +13/+8/+3| +4| +8| +4| Camouflage
14th| +14/+9/+4| +4|+9| +4| Skirmish (+4d6, +3 AC)
15th| +15/+10/+5| +5|+9| +5| 4th favored enemy, Bonus Feat
16th| +16/+11/+6/+1|+5| +10| +5| Skirmish (+4d6, +4 AC)
17th| +17/+12/+7/+2| +5|+10| +5| Hide in plain sight, Freedom Of Movement
18th| +18/+13/+8/+3| +6| +11| +6| Skirmish (+5d6, +4 AC )
19th| +19/+14/+9/+4| +6| +11| +6| Bonus Feat, Battle Fortitude +3
20th| +20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6| 5th favored enemy, Skirmish (+5d6, +5 AC)[/table]

[Vhaidara]

This is way overpowered. I do admit that I think the Ranger needs some work, but the Scout is pretty powerful. And you barely removed anything! You basicly took the ability tables and fused them. This has way to many good abilities. I mean, full BAB, favored enemy, skirmish, Battle Fortitude, and all those Bonus Feats! Also, this is basicly a scout with full BAB, FE, and a few miscelanious Ranger abilities! To put it simply, congratulations, you have made a munchkined scout.

I have never heard of Warblades except when people on the forums call them the uber-class.

[Legoman]

This is way overpowered. I do admit that I think the Ranger needs some work, but the Scout is pretty powerful. And you barely removed anything! You basicly took the ability tables and fused them. This has way to many good abilities. I mean, full BAB, favored enemy, skirmish, Battle Fortitude, and all those Bonus Feats! Also, this is basicly a scout with full BAB, FE, and a few miscelanious Ranger abilities! To put it simply, congratulations, you have made a munchkined scout.

I see your argument, and raise you a Warblade.