Oddest Prestige Entry Flaws

[winter92]

I was looking through pale master recently, and noticed that it doesn't seem to require entrants to be living. That's all well and good, but it makes things like "gives in to necromantic urges and grafts an undead arm in place of their own" absurd. Similarly, there's no reason a coatl PC can't end up a rainbow servant.

I know it's not really worth writing up special rules to restrict these things, but I'm still pretty amused. This got me wondering - what are the most absurd fluff/logic breakdowns between characters and the classes they can take?

[Abithrios]

I am not sure if this is an example of what you are talking about, but there are several prestige classes which require you to not be something they turn you into. For example, Dragon Disciple from The Dungeon Master's Guide requires you to not be a half dragon, but then after ten levels, you get the template. If you lose things you are no longer qualified for, then you would lose the benefits of the PrC, which would then make you qualified for those benefits, regaining them and losing the requirement that allows you to get them, in some sort of weird loop of contradiction.

[Swaoeaeieu]

awakend/antropomorphic bear bear warrior.

the raging makes you a stronger bear.

[nedz]

I am not sure if this is an example of what you are talking about, but there are several prestige classes which require you to not be something they turn you into. For example, Dragon Disciple from The Dungeon Master's Guide requires you to not be a half dragon, but then after ten levels, you get the template. If you lose things you are no longer qualified for, then you would lose the benefits of the PrC, which would then make you qualified for those benefits, regaining them and losing the requirement that allows you to get them, in some sort of weird loop of contradiction.

There are lots of PrCs like this. Ur Priest for example. We have stopped even documenting them in the dysfunctional rues threads. Schroedinger PrCs are quite common.

[MirddinEmris]

awakend/antropomorphic bear bear warrior.

the raging makes you a stronger bear.

Which actually make sense, since humans also get stronger while raging. Though in this case it also can change your fur color.

[geekintheground]

Which actually make sense, since humans also get stronger while raging. Though in this case it also can change your fur color.

so what youre saying is: its a super saiyan?

[bekeleven]

There are lots of PrCs like this. Ur Priest for example. We have stopped even documenting them in the dysfunctional rues threads. Schroedinger PrCs are quite common.

This isn't a dysfunction, losing PrC levels hasn't been a thing in 3.5 except for in a few splats (which contain none of those PrCs). Slightly more contentious is that losing PrC prerequisites prevents you from taking further levels in the class - meaning it's not an issue for class capstones like Dragon Disciple, but Ur Priest is still in trouble.

[nedz]

This isn't a dysfunction, losing PrC levels hasn't been a thing in 3.5 except for in a few splats (which contain none of those PrCs). Slightly more contentious is that losing PrC prerequisites prevents you from taking further levels in the class - meaning it's not an issue for class capstones like Dragon Disciple, but Ur Priest is still in trouble.

See Complete Arcane p17 (though there is an argument that this only applies to PrC in this book). Basically this states that if you cease to qualify for a PrC then you lose all class features from that PrC, though not HD. Schroedinger PrCs are ones which trip themselves up over this rule.

[KillianHawkeye]

See Complete Arcane p17 (though there is an argument that this only applies to PrC in this book). Basically this states that if you cease to qualify for a PrC then you lose all class features from that PrC, though not HD. Schroedinger PrCs are ones which trip themselves up over this rule.

The problem with this is that Complete Warrior has a rule that is similar but definitely not exactly the same. And also the Primary Sources rule says that the DMG is the final authority on prestige classes. Finally, just use common sense and don't allow any class to disqualify itself.

[Rubik]

If disqualifying for a PrC means you lose the benefits thereof, racial PrCs would seriously screw you over whenever you cast Polymorph, or even Alter Self.

[animewatcha]

awakend/antropomorphic bear bear warrior.

the raging makes you a stronger bear.

How can you be awakened when anthros are monstrous humanoids?

[Swaoeaeieu]

How can you be awakened when anthros are monstrous humanoids?

the slash indicates 'or' as in: an awakend bear or an antropomorphic bear. i didnt mean it was an awakend antro. that is quite redundant an not even rules legal as you point out.

[georgie_leech]

Schrödinger's PrC's tend to be common because of PrC's, like the Dragon Disciple, that are basically "you're not X, but you really want to be, and this class will help you be X." Naturally, the capstone would be becoming some variation of X.

While it at least gets a BaB/Save boost and progresses one Divine Spellcasting Class, I can't figure out why anyone would take the 10th level of Shining Blade of Heironeous instead of whatever class (iconic entry is Paladin, after all) used to qualify and get actual class features along with those. Aside from the usual confusion as to why someone would take SBoH levels.

[Chronos]

Do you mean to imply that you understand why someone would take the first through ninth levels of SBoH?

[georgie_leech]

Do you mean to imply that you understand why someone would take the first through ninth levels of SBoH?


Schrödinger's PrC's tend to be common because of PrC's, like the Dragon Disciple, that are basically "you're not X, but you really want to be, and this class will help you be X." Naturally, the capstone would be becoming some variation of X.

While it at least gets a BaB/Save boost and progresses one Divine Spellcasting Class, I can't figure out why anyone would take the 10th level of Shining Blade of Heironeous instead of whatever class (iconic entry is Paladin, after all) used to qualify and get actual class features along with those. ->Aside from the usual confusion as to why someone would take SBoH levels.<-


Nah. :smalltongue:

[Petrocorus]

The problem with this is that Complete Warrior has a rule that is similar but definitely not exactly the same. And also the Primary Sources rule says that the DMG is the final authority on prestige classes. Finally, just use common sense and don't allow any class to disqualify itself.


See Complete Arcane p17 (though there is an argument that this only applies to PrC in this book). Basically this states that if you cease to qualify for a PrC then you lose all class features from that PrC, though not HD. Schroedinger PrCs are ones which trip themselves up over this rule.

I was wondering, do you lose the BAB and the CL from a PrC too if you don't qualify any more for a PrC? Like you dip one lvl in Dragonslayer, and you dark chaos shuffle the Iron Will feat later, do you lose one CL?


Aside from the usual confusion as to why someone would take SBoH levels.

I still don't understand why so many people write in white and expect other people to see it?

[nedz]

I was wondering, do you lose the BAB and the CL from a PrC too if you don't qualify any more for a PrC? Like you dip one lvl in Dragonslayer, and you dark chaos shuffle the Iron Will feat later, do you lose one CL?

BAB, HP and saves come from the HD — so you keep those.

[georgie_leech]

I still don't understand why so many people write in white and expect other people to see it?

Usually there's a blob of white space at the bottom of the post, but mine worked out into exactly filling the remaining space of the last line.

I'm not entirely sure why we do it, but personally I find it slightly more "jokey" than putting it in tiny text at the bottom.

[Vedhin]

While it at least gets a BaB/Save boost and progresses one Divine Spellcasting Class, I can't figure out why anyone would take the 10th level of Shining Blade of Heironeous instead of whatever class (iconic entry is Paladin, after all) used to qualify and get actual class features along with those.

They entered via Warrior 5/Pious Templar 5. Warrior has no class features, Pious Templar has iffy class features after 5th, and SBoH maxes out your Pious Templar casting.



On topic, fiends going into Acolyte of the Skin, elementals into Elemental Savant, and constructs (Warforged) into Green Star Adept. Undead/constructs becoming Blood Magi.

[Chronos]

On the other side of the coin, there are also prestige classes that a character should be able to take, but can't. For instance, Anarchic Initiate from Complete Psionic is supposed to be good for wilders, except that it requires 10 ranks in Knowledge (the planes), which wilders don't have as a class skill. And it's a 10-level prestige class, so a wilder can't possibly finish it pre-epic, without using a feat or something to get K:tP as a class skill.

Similarly, there's a fleshgrafter class somewhere that's designed for arcane casters, but it requires the Graft Flesh feat, which in turn requires a large number of ranks in Heal, which most arcane casters don't get as a class skill. It similarly can't be finished pre-epic by its intended base class entry.

[Jeff the Green]

On the other side of the coin, there are also prestige classes that a character should be able to take, but can't. For instance, Anarchic Initiate from Complete Psionic is supposed to be good for wilders, except that it requires 10 ranks in Knowledge (the planes), which wilders don't have as a class skill. And it's a 10-level prestige class, so a wilder can't possibly finish it pre-epic, without using a feat or something to get K:tP as a class skill.

Similarly, there's a fleshgrafter class somewhere that's designed for arcane casters, but it requires the Graft Flesh feat, which in turn requires a large number of ranks in Heal, which most arcane casters don't get as a class skill. It similarly can't be finished pre-epic by its intended base class entry.

Or the sorcerer prestige classes that require K:tP.

Another curious thing about the fleshwarper is that it requires 4 ranks in Heal. Along with Graft Flesh, which requires 10 ranks in Heal. I think the designer forgot that Graft Flesh has that prereq, because otherwise it's perfectly reasonable for a wizard or sorcerer to enter at level 6.

[nedz]

They entered via Warrior 5/Pious Templar 5. Warrior has no class features, Pious Templar has iffy class features after 5th, and SBoH maxes out your Pious Templar casting.

Wasn't that build from the thread where we all tried very hard to find builds which SBoH wouldn't make worse ?

[Sith_Happens]

Wasn't that build from the thread where we all tried very hard to find builds which SBoH wouldn't make worse ?

Yes, it was.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think the only class that could reasonable gain something from SBoH was... Adept I think. And even then it was a stretch IIRC

[Vedhin]

Wasn't that build from the thread where we all tried very hard to find builds which SBoH wouldn't make worse ?

The thread was about horrible PrCs, actually.


I think the only class that could reasonable gain something from SBoH was... Adept I think. And even then it was a stretch IIRC

That was my suggestion. I skipped PC classes altogether and went straight for the dregs. Though one of the benefits I listed was "better BAB for Scorching Ray", so it was a real stretch.