Dwarven Culinary Tastes

[Dumbestupidiot]

With Dwarven racial bonus of immunity to many poisons, what would their food culture be like? Will anyone who isn't a dwarf or otherwise immune have to watch out what meals they will eat? Is it a dwarven custom for everyone to sit down (with a good dozen pints of ale each) and eat so it would be offensive for non-dwarves not to eat said food?

I wonder if dwarfs like three decker sauerkraut and toadstool sandwiches with arsenic sauce.

[Gnoman]

Dwarves are NOT immune to poison. They have a racial bonus to saves against poisons, and a racial bonus to COnstitution (which boosts Fortitude saves, and thus provides even more protection), but a blown save and they're just as bad off as any other race.

[Keltest]

Keep in mind a resistance to poison doesn't

A: render it undetectable. Anything toxic would still taste horrible, gallon-o'-poison-in-sandwich joke aside, and

B: render them completely immune. They CAN still die from the poison, even if theyd have a higher chance than a human or elf would of survival.

[Dumbestupidiot]

Keep in mind a resistance to poison doesn't

A: render it undetectable. Anything toxic would still taste horrible, gallon-o'-poison-in-sandwich joke aside, and

B: render them completely immune. They CAN still die from the poison, even if theyd have a higher chance than a human or elf would of survival.

Some poisonous mushrooms taste quite delicious, but still kill you. This is without mentioning some cultures loving awful sounding/smelling/tasting things regardless of how they sound/smell/taste (such as durian or lutefisk for examples)

Maybe it's somewhat like fugu fish in japanese cuisine, more risk of poisoning but more chance of surviving. Or as they have heightened resistance more things can double as drugs in proper doses (furthering Dwarf liver's fight against disease and further chance of not going to Hel)

We also know that Malack's poison spell tastes like Durkon's Mom's crabapple cobbler, so I'm not sure if that is an indictment of Durkon's mom's cooking or if it's how dwarven crabapple cobbler is supposed to taste.

(note, I'm going by non-D&D rules, because it's more fun to think of that way and we aren't slavish to the rules (and i have no idea what the rules are and, minus the drug part, this is something Rich might actually entertain)

[Ron Miel]

What's good for one race may be poisonous to another. Humans can eat chocolate safely, but catfolk should avoid it. There could be something similar in Dwarven cooking.

[Mike Havran]

With two livers and strong ...eh... popularity of alcohol, I don't think most of the dwarves care that much about what they eat. The drink is more important. The poison resistance will also come handy if the food gets slightly old.

[factotum]

We also know that Malack's poison spell tastes like Durkon's Mom's crabapple cobbler, so I'm not sure if that is an indictment of Durkon's mom's cooking or if it's how dwarven crabapple cobbler is supposed to taste.


I think Durkon may have been exaggerating for the sake of braggadocio when he said that...I doubt Malack's poison tasted anything close to his Ma's cooking.

[DaggerPen]

With Dwarven racial bonus of immunity to many poisons, what would their food culture be like? Will anyone who isn't a dwarf or otherwise immune have to watch out what meals they will eat? Is it a dwarven custom for everyone to sit down (with a good dozen pints of ale each) and eat so it would be offensive for non-dwarves not to eat said food?

I wonder if dwarfs like three decker sauerkraut and toadstool sandwiches with arsenic sauce.

In one of the bonus strips in Dungeon Crawling Fools, when Durkon shared his "good dwarven rations," an exchange similar to the following (I don't have my book with me) ensued:

Durkon: Hey, those be good dwarven rations!
Elan: Has anyone introduced the concept of 'flavor' to them?
Durkon: The concept o' wha now?

I imagine that dwarven cuisine is generally fairly bland and is focused basically on nutrition over anything else. Given how the dwarven resistance to poison is treated as near immunity in this comic, mildly poisonous fare is probably not uncommon, either. Either way, I imagine that it's not particularly appetizing to non-dwarves.

[Dumbestupidiot]

I imagine that dwarven cuisine is generally fairly bland and is focused basically on nutrition over anything else. Given how the dwarven resistance to poison is treated as near immunity in this comic, mildly poisonous fare is probably not uncommon, either. Either way, I imagine that it's not particularly appetizing to non-dwarves.

It's probably just as well the order of the stick has Belkar, the gourmet chef, around then.
Darn, now i feel like eating some vulture stew
Well, they'll have him for a while anyway...

[Trillium]

I guess their cuisine consists mainly of appetizers to be served with beer.
Their gourmets would be devising beer and whiskey cocktails, while regular (munchy) cuisine would be akin to our tea culture - most people wouldn't be able to tell dried fish from roast bread, but some could name a thousand different sorts of food to go with beer and how they differ.

[xroads]

I can imagine there being some dwarven drinking games that may involve some risky culinary. For example, two contestants chug beer brewed from a mildly toxic mushroom til one fails a saving throw.

[Turgon9357]

Their poison resistance might be related to the general disdain for surface brews. Their booze, possibly brewed from subterranean mushrooms that would terrify anyone else, probably kicks like an angry bull (do bulls kick?), so something as tame as what humans claim is beer is basically iced tea to them.

[xroads]

Their poison resistance might be related to the general disdain for surface brews. Their booze, possibly brewed from subterranean mushrooms that would terrify anyone else, probably kicks like an angry bull (do bulls kick?), so something as tame as what humans claim is beer is basically iced tea to them.

Heh. Sounds like a fantasy game I played in a few weeks ago. We joked that the ale being brewed by one of our dwarven comrades also doubled as an effective turpentine. :smallamused:

[Everyl]

If dwarves' metabolism is sufficiently different from that of humans, they might not even derive as much nutrition from solid food as we do. Beer (and even straight-up alcohol) is metabolized for calories; perhaps beer *is* the staple "food" for dwarves. Everything else is just there to fill in vitamin and mineral gaps, or in the case of traveling rations, to be something lighter than beer for portability purposes.

Probably not, but who knows?

[Rift_Wolf]

This topic has made me think of something for my next campaign:
Duergar Chilli: many dare, few succeed. Honestly, the poisons not the worst part; it's the paralysis and the phantasms that REALLY pack a punch...

[King of Nowhere]

Everyone is speaking of "dwarven cuisine", but it's actually an oversimplification. In the real world there are roughly 200 countries, and every country has a tipical cuisine. No, even more. From abroad it is perceived as the tipical food from that country, but within the country there are regional differences. So there are hundreds of kinds of human food.
I don' see why in a fantasy world things should be different, except for the sake of simplicity. there are probably dozens of dwarvish culinary tradition, some very different from each other. and just because durkon never focused on flavor, it don't mean that there aren't dwarves who do.

About the poison, in D&D posion is treated one saving throw at the time, so by strict rules dwarves have a higher probability of avoiding ill effects, but are still at risk.
However, in the real world poison goes by amount. it starts to take effect beyond a certain dose, and poison resistance increases that dose. so dwarves can eat with no consequence things that could be mildly intoxicating to human. However, that +2 do not translates in such a higher resistance that they would go around eating arsenic or stuff.
Plus, I think it only applies to biological poisons; those are metabolized by the liver, or fought with anticorps. basically, the body can develop resistances. instead, there is no resistance to most chemical poisoning: there is no mechanism for the body to get rid of it, except by dilution.
But cooking would likely use only poisons of biological origin, so forget about that, it shouldn't matter.

[IW Judicator]

In one of the bonus strips in Dungeon Crawling Fools, when Durkon shared his "good dwarven rations," an exchange similar to the following (I don't have my book with me) ensued:

Durkon: Hey, those be good dwarven rations!
Elan: Has anyone introduced the concept of 'flavor' to them?
Durkon: The concept o' wha now?

I imagine that dwarven cuisine is generally fairly bland and is focused basically on nutrition over anything else. Given how the dwarven resistance to poison is treated as near immunity in this comic, mildly poisonous fare is probably not uncommon, either. Either way, I imagine that it's not particularly appetizing to non-dwarves.

If dwarven cooking is typically bland, is it a good or a bad thing that Durkon's mother's cooking tasted like a Poison spell? On the one hand, if it tasted terrible...well...at least it tasted like something. On the other hand, it could trigger a pleasant nostalgic feeling, making Durkon think of it as a...more pleasant flavor that it originally was?

(Admittedly the Poison spell probably didn't taste like anyone's cooking, but it is an amusing thought).

[factotum]

I don' see why in a fantasy world things should be different, except for the sake of simplicity. there are probably dozens of dwarvish culinary tradition, some very different from each other. and just because durkon never focused on flavor, it don't mean that there aren't dwarves who do.


I get the impression that the dwarven homelands consist of a single cave system in the northern mountains, but I may be wrong on that. If so, there probably wouldn't be a lot of culinary variation, or a lot of culinary anything considering they probably eat nothing but mushrooms and other cave-dwelling things; this might be why they're so good at beer brewing, because it's the only way to produce anything that's pleasant to the tongue!

[DaggerPen]

If dwarven cooking is typically bland, is it a good or a bad thing that Durkon's mother's cooking tasted like a Poison spell? On the one hand, if it tasted terrible...well...at least it tasted like something. On the other hand, it could trigger a pleasant nostalgic feeling, making Durkon think of it as a...more pleasant flavor that it originally was?

(Admittedly the Poison spell probably didn't taste like anyone's cooking, but it is an amusing thought).

Well, apple seeds do contain trace amounts of arsenic. Maybe there are just a LOT of seeds in dwarven crabapple pie? :smalltongue:

[mikeejimbo]

Even in real life, humans will consume poisonous things. As it has been mentioned, the difference is in the dosage. Dwarves may well have some foods that contain higher doses of poisons than human foods would. However, I suspect they mostly use their poison resistance to drink more beer.

[Chronos]

Apple seeds contain cyanide (or, strictly speaking, a chemical precursor to it), not arsenic. No living thing will contain arsenic unless it was grown in contaminated soil, as arsenic is an element and thus cannot be synthesized from other things in chemical reactions.

[factotum]

No living thing will contain arsenic unless it was grown in contaminated soil, as arsenic is an element and thus cannot be synthesized from other things in chemical reactions.

Eh? Does not follow--it's entirely possible to react two compounds together and get an element as one of the results, because the compounds are made up of elements!

(As an example, one of the ways to produce hydrogen on an industrial scale is to react methane and steam (e.g. water) together at high temperature--the result is mainly carbon dioxide and hydrogen, with a little carbon monoxide in there as well).

[DaggerPen]

Apple seeds contain cyanide (or, strictly speaking, a chemical precursor to it), not arsenic. No living thing will contain arsenic unless it was grown in contaminated soil, as arsenic is an element and thus cannot be synthesized from other things in chemical reactions.

Ach! Yeah, I totally mixed those two up, sorry.

That having been said, I thought almonds sometimes had small amounts of arsenic (http://www.ask.com/question/do-almonds-contain-arsenic)?

[King of Nowhere]

Ach! Yeah, I totally mixed those two up, sorry.

That having been said, I thought almonds sometimes had small amounts of arsenic (http://www.ask.com/question/do-almonds-contain-arsenic)?

Arsenic is similar to phosphorous and so can react with organic molecules and be inccorporated in them instead of phosphorous. But it is not part of the normal biological reactions going on, it is a contaminant. While the cyanide precursors are part of the apple biology and have a role into the cell.
Not that the distinction matters much if you get poisoned by one of them.

[Knaight]

Eh? Does not follow--it's entirely possible to react two compounds together and get an element as one of the results, because the compounds are made up of elements!

(As an example, one of the ways to produce hydrogen on an industrial scale is to react methane and steam (e.g. water) together at high temperature--the result is mainly carbon dioxide and hydrogen, with a little carbon monoxide in there as well).

What's being said is more that organic poisons (mostly carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, sulfur, nitrogen, and the halogens) can be synthesized from the elements already in organic compounds, whereas arsenic can't be - barring nuclear fusion, which is not exactly routine within plants.

Or, putting it really simply: CHNOPS poisons get synthesized by plants all the time, poisonous metals tend not to be.

[Keltest]

What's being said is more that organic poisons (mostly carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, sulfur, nitrogen, and the halogens) can be synthesized from the elements already in organic compounds, whereas arsenic can't be - barring nuclear fusion, which is not exactly routine within plants.

Or, putting it really simply: CHNOPS poisons get synthesized by plants all the time, poisonous metals tend not to be.

I think he got that part, he was confused as to the "it is an element and therefore cannot be synthesized" part. Which, even after your explanation, seems factually incorrect.

[Joe the Rat]

You're overthinking this.
The foundation of Dwarven cuisine is beer. From that, all else flows.

Beer cheddar soup, beer batter pretzels, beer battered fried cheese, beer battered beer-fed beer bear on a beer batter pretzel bun, oatmeal cookies (which is just a really thick stout), and beer brined bacon bundles, crabapple pie (with beer), and chips.

[malloyd]

I think he got that part, he was confused as to the "it is an element and therefore cannot be synthesized" part. Which, even after your explanation, seems factually incorrect.

No. Elements can't be synthesized (literally "putting together") chemically, because they aren't combinations. If they are already present in one of the reactants they can be products, but this won't be a synthesis, but a reduction.

As an aside, the traditional poison "arsenic" isn't the metal, which isn't all that biologically active - it's not good for you, but it's fairly hard to kill somebody with - it's the sesquioxide As2O3, which can be lethal in gram or so quantities.

[mikeejimbo]

Pfft, a gram is huge. It could kill you by falling on you.

I mean, not my gram. Her doctor is pleased with her weight.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Apple seeds contain cyanide (or, strictly speaking, a chemical precursor to it), not arsenic. No living thing will contain arsenic unless it was grown in contaminated soil, as arsenic is an element and thus cannot be synthesized from other things in chemical reactions.

That isn't entirely true. Scientists found arsenic-containing compounds in one species of seaweed and giant (inedible) clams (Tridacna gigas) decades ago, but it's extraordinarily uncommon.

[Ring_of_Gyges]

Bonuses to constitution and poison saves will mean a wider range of things are safe for dwarves to eat than for humans.

Some people get violently ill when they eat shellfish, some people don't, in the same way it stands to reason that some organic stuff would make humans sick but not dwarves.

If food scarcity is an issue (and with medieval technology it will be), then cultures will eat whatever they can. If dwarves can keep down mushrooms that humans would vomit up, they'll eat them when nicer food gets scarce.

Alcohol is basically poison, a poison resistant dwarf would need stronger drinks than a human to get the same buzz. Either they'd have to find ways to brew stronger beer, drink more of it, or abandon it for hard alcohol if they want the same effect. The most common fantasy trope is for dwarves to brew stronger beer and make fun of humans for not being able to hold their liquor.

So yeah, I'd say a human at a dwarven feast would need to be careful about what he ate. Sensible dwarves shouldn't take that as an insult. Crazy and unreasonable dwarves might, but they're crazy and unreasonable.

There could be cultural issues as well. IRL humans all have the same biology, but if you encounter a foreign cuisine with ingredients your body isn't used to it can take a while before you can digest it comfortably.

[Keltest]

Alcohol is basically poison, a poison resistant dwarf would need stronger drinks than a human to get the same buzz. Either they'd have to find ways to brew stronger beer, drink more of it, or abandon it for hard alcohol if they want the same effect. The most common fantasy trope is for dwarves to brew stronger beer and make fun of humans for not being able to hold their liquor.

Its my understanding that the poison and the buzz are two separate effects of alcohol. so a dwarf would get drunk at the same rate as an equally tough human, but their higher natural constitutions typically allow them to take more of the depressant, while the poison resist keeps them alive from the alcohol poisoning itself. (Plus clerics, and apparently 2 livers in OOTS).

[Ring_of_Gyges]

Its my understanding that the poison and the buzz are two separate effects of alcohol. so a dwarf would get drunk at the same rate as an equally tough human, but their higher natural constitutions typically allow them to take more of the depressant, while the poison resist keeps them alive from the alcohol poisoning itself. (Plus clerics, and apparently 2 livers in OOTS).
I say this as a person with no medical training whatsoever so take with a grain of salt...

Alcohol does a range of things, one is relaxing your muscles. That's nice, it's a pleasant sensation, but if you relax your muscles enough important muscles like the heart and lungs stop working. That's what kills people who drink too much. That and having your gag reflex muscles so relaxed that they don't stop you choking on your own vomit.

Likewise alcohol messes up your brain, making it harder to focus or even move too well. That can be quite nice, relaxing your mind just like you'd relax your body. It can also kill you though by making you so dumb you try to drive home and so clumsy you drive into a brick wall. Alcohol interferes with your ability to control your emotions. Lowering inhibitions can be quite pleasant, do it too much and you'll end up getting in idiotic fights for no good reason or breaking down bawling over nothing.

The only thing that I don't think fits this pattern is the nausea. The feeling nausea doesn't go from nice to too much, it goes from unnoticeable to uncomfortable to really uncomfortable to "oh God, when will the vomiting stop!". Your body knows it's poison and once you get enough of it vomiting it up is it's way of defending you.

People boast about their ability to drink lots as macho posturing to show how tough they are and how much damage they can endure and still function. I'll happily defer to anyone with any actual medical knowledge but in my personal experience the things that make being drunk pleasant in small amounts are the very same things that make being drunk horrible in large amounts. I'd give dwarves the poison save bonus if my PC's ever got into a drinking contest.

[Keltest]

I say this as a person with no medical training whatsoever so take with a grain of salt...

Alcohol does a range of things, one is relaxing your muscles. That's nice, it's a pleasant sensation, but if you relax your muscles enough important muscles like the heart and lungs stop working. That's what kills people who drink too much. That and having your gag reflex muscles so relaxed that they don't stop you choking on your own vomit.

Likewise alcohol messes up your brain, making it harder to focus or even move too well. That can be quite nice, relaxing your mind just like you'd relax your body. It can also kill you though by making you so dumb you try to drive home and so clumsy you drive into a brick wall. Alcohol interferes with your ability to control your emotions. Lowering inhibitions can be quite pleasant, do it too much and you'll end up getting in idiotic fights for no good reason or breaking down bawling over nothing.

The only thing that I don't think fits this pattern is the nausea. The feeling nausea doesn't go from nice to too much, it goes from unnoticeable to uncomfortable to really uncomfortable to "oh God, when will the vomiting stop!". Your body knows it's poison and once you get enough of it vomiting it up is it's way of defending you.

People boast about their ability to drink lots as macho posturing to show how tough they are and how much damage they can endure and still function. I'll happily defer to anyone with any actual medical knowledge but in my personal experience the things that make being drunk pleasant in small amounts are the very same things that make being drunk horrible in large amounts. I'd give dwarves the poison save bonus if my PC's ever got into a drinking contest.

Clearly you have never seen an elf in a drinking contest. Legolas aside, a lot of settings I know have elves who brew drinks strong enough to strip paint.

[MartianInvader]

Plump helmet roasts.
And cats.

[Dammann]

You know, a thing about medieval fantasy worlds is the lack of refrigeration. Maybe dwarven cuisine is more tolerant of spoiling? Maybe they eat a lot of cheese, aged meat, and so on, so the flavor is more gamey than we're used to. Or the flavor of rot might be just as unpleasant to them as to us, even though the risk of food poisoning is less, so they just spice the heck out of all their dishes. Or possibly, to avoid the whole spoilage issue and leverage their resistance to alcohol, they store everything perishable in spirits. When they cook it, some of the alcohol gets cooked off, but since everything is just pickled in booze, other people may get drunk eating dwarf food.

I am thinking, too, that the low lighting in a dwarf hold might mean that the food is bland in color, since you can't see it well anyway. Alternately, they might use food dyes or herbs to brighten their foods to unnaturally vivid colors that are easier to distinguish in dim light.

If dwarves grow food underground, the plant part of their diet is probably minimized. They might eat bugs, or eyeless fish. They might have more mushrooms in their diet, which seems to be suggested by others as sort of a given. Alternately, they might do some farming on the surface, since their urban space could all be right undernearth the farms. Maybe they've got herds that are well sheltered from other surface animals, but easy to get at from an underground passage.

[Domino Quartz]

Plump helmet roasts.
And cats.

Or roasts made almost entirely out of booze. This is an actual thing that used to be able to happen.

[Gnoman]

Or roasts made almost entirely out of booze. This is an actual thing that used to be able to happen.

Don't forget the tallow.