Is it possible to balance the game by buffing mundanes/post OP wizard builds.

[RPGaddict28]

So, a little bit of a backstory. A player of mine was complaining about how DnD Next shouldn't have nerded wizards for balance, and that every non T1 should have been buffed. I brought up that the only way to equalize mundanes via buffing is to make the mundanes into casters.

I want to know your opinions on is it even possible to balance the game, wihtout making it so that every class isn't another caster.

THEN, said player brought up how wizards really aren't all that broken, so I need all your game breaking wizard builds. Builds that any non T1 class can't even hope to achieve.

[OldTrees1]

Tier 1-2 is defined by having game breaking abilities.
Ex: Cast Lesser Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) on an Efreet.
Use Bestow Curse & Eagle's Spendor to gain a significant negotiating advantage
Have fun with your 3 wishes per day for loads of days.
Repeat as necessary for infinite wishes.

If the Tier 1-2 classes were altered down to Tier 3 then the game would be possible to balance without giving everyone access to spells. Otherwise the game is only balanced for the classes that have access to the game breaking abilities.

[rmnimoc]

Meet Cindy.
http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/...r.php?cid=5890
Also, this whole thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319651

[The Trickster]

So, a little bit of a backstory. A player of mine was complaining about how DnD Next shouldn't have nerded wizards for balance, and that every non T1 should have been buffed. I brought up that the only way to equalize mundanes via buffing is to make the mundanes into casters.

I want to know your opinions on is it even possible to balance the game, wihtout making it so that every class isn't another caster.

THEN, said player brought up how wizards really aren't all that broken, so I need all your game breaking wizard builds. Builds that any non T1 class can't even hope to achieve.

Go to Google. Look up anything to do with Tainted Scholar, Pun-pun, Ice Assassin, Simulacrum, or planer bindings, to name a few. Or just look up Tippy. That'll give you all sorts of stupid broken stuff.

I agree with your basic premise. The closest "mundane" characters get to T1 are the ToB classes. While they don't cast spells, they do use manuevers, which to some people are still very spell-like.

Technically, you can balance the game without making everyone spellcasters. You would just need to only use spellcastera that have very limited versatility. A fighter can get along with a warmage just fine on the balance scale, despite the latter being a full caster.

[Popertop]

So basically the Tier 3 casters that have thematic spell lists are the way to go if you want a balanced game?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Your friend is wrong and you've pretty much hit the nail on the head.

While they don't have to be terribly similar mechanically, there's simply no way that 3e's casters can exist alongside mundane characters of any stripe and there be any kind of balance between them. They're just far too powerful and have too broad an array of abilities.

If you want a game that's fairly balanced using the 3e rules set, the quick and dirty fix is to simply ban all but the T3 and T4 base classes and any means of going around the limitations that this creates on available spells. It's not a solution I particularly like but it -does- work.

[Hurnn]

So, a little bit of a backstory. A player of mine was complaining about how DnD Next shouldn't have nerded wizards for balance, and that every non T1 should have been buffed. I brought up that the only way to equalize mundanes via buffing is to make the mundanes into casters.

I want to know your opinions on is it even possible to balance the game, wihtout making it so that every class isn't another caster.

THEN, said player brought up how wizards really aren't all that broken, so I need all your game breaking wizard builds. Builds that any non T1 class can't even hope to achieve.

Well they did that it was called 4th ed and it sucked.

Every t1 build breaks the game. I'm not sure you can even build badly enough on purpose unless you then choose only useless spells and make your caster stat a 10 and never raise it, but even then your druid still may kick ass.

the only way to even get close to balance is nerf the t 1 and t2 down to the t 3 level, and that would take some drastic measures. I sugested something like this in another post.


Classes:

First up is Saves: everyone has a +2, +1 +0 save progression.

Second BaB: stays the same except fighter and barb start at +3 giving them their multi attacks sooner.

Third Skills: skill monkeys: rogue are all 12+ int, mundanes :fighter barb 8+int, caster/fighters: bard pally ranger monk 6+ int, magic guys:wizard, cleric, sorc 4+ int

HD fighters move to a d12, rangers to a 10 everyone else stays the same

Fighters get bonus feats every even level, and the bonus at first still, would add in the fighter pathfinder bonus stuff.

Pallies use the pathfinder one.

Monk, help with the mad issues by letting them use Dex instead of Str on skills and to hit and damage bonuses.

Magic: big nerfs everywhere.

Clerics: Lose heavy armor prof, all gods have 4 domains all divine spells are spilt into domains and general. Those are the only ones you can cast, you get all the domain bonuses still, can spontainiously cast from 1 of your domains. Can swap healing for 1 domain,but can never spontainiously cast from it. If healing was one of your gods domains you also get to double your bonus healing number ei: 5th lvl cure light wounds is 1-8 + 5 with the healing domain you would do 1d8+ 10.

Wizards: can cast form all schools through 3rd, after third you have to give up 1 school each time you gain a new spell level. So 8+ general at 1-3 level spells, 4th 7, 5th 6, 6th, 5 7th, 4, 8th 3, 9th 2 specialists only give up 1 school, divination is still not eleigible, and obviously have 1 school less avalible per level.

Sorcerer: more spells known per level (50%), but for every spell known you roll twice randomly and get to pick 1. Every even level you can give up a spell to roll again.

Druid: split into 3 flavors; Animal, plant, elemental.

Animal: gets the companion and wildshape before the others can only ever wildshape into an animal. Companion at 3rd, wild shape at 5th. can only cast heals, general spells and heals. Summon NA animals only.

Plant: no companion, Wild Shape at 7th Plant only. casts: general, plant, heals and weather. Summon NA plants only.

Elemental: no companion Wild shape at 9th, elementals only. Cast: general, heals,Elemental, plane related. Summon NA elementals only

MetaMagic, No meta magic items, posibly the worst idea WotC ever had. Meta magic now requires a spell craft check and the old level increae would act as a multiplier. formula would be (10+spell level)metamagic level. So maximised fireball would be 39 on your spell craft check, Quickened time stop, 76.

[OldTrees1]

So basically the Tier 3 casters that have thematic spell lists are the way to go if you want a balanced game?

What would it take to make a Tier 3 generalist caster class: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327453