Ranger with sneak attack

[maddog7217]

*I am new to 4e so please include book references*

I am playing a campaign with all WoTC publishing available. I want to build a Ranger with sneak attack available, but multi classing is confusing to me. I would like to be able to sneak attack more than once an encounter. My plan is to be high on initiative, use a crossbow with a split shot and get sneak on more than one foe. Ideas on multi classing and feats would be greatly appreciated!

[Kurald Galain]

Rangers cannot SA more than once per encounter, so the straightforward answer is to play a rogue, take nature skill, and just pretend you're a ranger in character.

[Mando Knight]

You can also only use Sneak Attack on one target, once per turn.

[NecroRebel]

Since you can, as Mando says, use Sneak Attack only once per turn regardless of other abilities, your primary goal is just outright impossible.

It is sort of possible to get a Ranger with limitless sneak attack by being a hybrid Ranger|Rogue, but you won't be able to use Sneak Attack with your Ranger powers (or Hunter's Quarry with Rogue powers). If there's some Rogue power that counts as a melee basic attack (I know of none) you could take Throw and Stab as your Ranger at-will and combo the two - after errata Throw and Stab doesn't allow a charge, only movement and a MBA. If you don't really know what you're doing, though, I'd strongly advise against hybridizing, and even if you did, you'd probably be stronger as a straight-up Ranger.

[Gavran]

I'll second not knowing of a Rogue MBA. I've looked pretty hard, too.

What do you want out of "Ranger"? What do you want out of "Sneak Attack"?

With the exception of multiple Sneak Attacks, both of those things are more or less mechanically possible as a Range or a Rogue.

[Yakk]

Is your goal to build a mechanically 3e designed character in 4e?

[maddog7217]

I know little about 4e. I was just trying to get some dps. My hope was to split shot and get sneak on multiple creatures. Ultimately I'm looking for a ranged dps if you have any better suggestions.

[Urpriest]

I know little about 4e. I was just trying to get some dps. My hope was to split shot and get sneak on multiple creatures. Ultimately I'm looking for a ranged dps if you have any better suggestions.

That's just not possible, yeah.

Rangers already do a lot of damage. In general, you want to stack static bonuses on to your attacks. Dig up a 4e ranger handbook and they'll explain how to get very nice DPR on a ranger.

[NecroRebel]

Yeah, the Ranger has one of the highest damages per round pretty much straight out of the box. Well over half of the damage from most attacks comes in the form of static damage bonuses, which get applied to every attack, so the key to high damage in 4e is just getting as many attacks per round as possible. Most classes have to work quite a bit to get multiple attacks every round. Rangers get it practically automatically with Twin Strike, and with enough work can get a third and sometimes fourth attack per round.

Basically, take Twin Strike as one of your at-wills, any and all minor-action, immediate-action, or other non-standard-action attack powers that you can, and get all the pluses you can manage, and you'll be a better striker than most. For the most part, from a DPR standpoint the only time it's better to use something other than Twin Strike + a non-standard-action power is when you have powers that are Twin Strike but better.

This playstyle is often found to be extremely boring, however, as it's constantly just variations on the same thing. Archery-based Rangers can be even worse in this regard, as a lot of the time you don't even actually care about positioning very much.

[maddog7217]

I am still failing to understand the purpose of dual wielding, at least compared to 3.5. Twin strike is a standard, so I would not be able to make an off hand attack afterward, would I?

[Mando Knight]

I am still failing to understand the purpose of dual wielding, at least compared to 3.5. Twin strike is a standard, so I would not be able to make an off hand attack afterward, would I?

Twin Strike IS how you make the off-hand attack.

[GPuzzle]

Twin Strike deals two attacks with your main and off-hand weapon, one for each. You can use up to two minors in the same round as a standard if you don't move, one minor if you move, but not two standards in the same round. So, with Off-Hand Strike that's 3 attacks in the same round.

[NecroRebel]

So we're clear: unless you use a power that specifically says that you attack with your off-hand weapon, you do not attack with your off-hand weapon. So, for a Warlord, for instance, dual wielding is pointless, since they don't have any powers that let them attack with their off-hand weapon.

[Tegu8788]

I am still failing to understand the purpose of dual wielding, at least compared to 3.5. Twin strike is a standard, so I would not be able to make an off hand attack afterward, would I?

If you used a power like Off-Hand Strike, which is a minor action and specifically says you use your off-hand weapon to attack, then yes.


If not, no, no you don't.



You can always attack with your off-hand weapon as a standard action. But then you don't get to attack with your primary weapon by default.



If you can tell us what you want, we can help you build it. If you want extra damage, say damage, not sneak. If you want to be sneaky, that's something else entirely. The crossbow and desire for sneak attack makes me think a Rogue would actually work here, the damage isn't bad either. Not the best, but solid.

[maddog7217]

Okay. So I could for example dual wield small repeating crossbows and get 3 shots. That could work. I had given up on sneak attack really being viable, aka getting more than 1 sneak attack per encounter while dishing out 3 attacks per round. My second idea was to go beast master and supplement my damage with a companion. Since twin strike and off hand are my real only concerns, that opens up room to multiclass... Maybe a second class that also allows a summon or companion. I looked into the druid, but it doesn't seem he had the ability to summon. I just started looking into the invoker as a possibility.

[Kurald Galain]

Okay. So I could for example dual wield small repeating crossbows and get 3 shots.
No, because the power Off-Hand Strike works only with melee weapons (and is once per encounter to boot).


My second idea was to go beast master and supplement my damage with a companion.
That doesn't work, because your companion shares the same action pool as you do.

Look, you should probably drop the assumption that 4E works the way 3E does, because it doesn't.

[maddog7217]

Eternal disappointment

[maddog7217]

Well I am getting a little off topic, but how do the monk and druid synergies as a hybrid? Before I pour in a few hours of research, does the AC stack well?

[MrUberGr]

Well, I haven't read thoroughly through this thread but I think I know what you want, because I wanted the same thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325898) a week ago.

Let me explain a couple of things.

Mutliclass in 4e: it's as simple as getting a feat, cause that's what it is. You can make a ranger and get the sneak of shadows feat, which is the rogue mc feat. From that, you gain thievery as a trained skill, and once per encounter you get a sneak attack.

Now there are a few problems with this. An archer ranger starts of with a longbow and moves onto a greatbow as soon as possible. Sneak attack only works with a shortbow.

Damage: The Ranger is one of, if not "the", best dps out there. The two-weapon fighting being just a little bit over archer. You get something equivalent to sneak attack.

Let me make an example:
Drow ranger lvl 5
Dex 21
Wis 16
Feats: weapon proficiency (greatbow), bow expertise, darkfire targeting

With a basic attack you deal:
1d12 +5 (dex) + 1d6 hunter's quarry + 3 (darkfire t.) + 1 (bow exp)
That's an average of 18-19 on a basic attack, with a +11 to hit. Using your at will power Twin strike, you deal 2d12+1d6+3+1


You might want to look at this (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2833266). Has a lot of guides for rangers. I'm using the second one, (battlefield archer), only instead of an elf I'm playing a drow

[Kurald Galain]

Well I am getting a little off topic, but how do the monk and druid synergies as a hybrid? Before I pour in a few hours of research, does the AC stack well?

When you're new to 4E, I strongly recommend against making a hybrid of any kind. Most hybrids are weaker than either base class would be on its own, and finding (and successfully building) one that isn't requires a certain amount of system mastery.

[maddog7217]

Well, I haven't read thoroughly through this thread but I think I know what you want, because I wanted the same thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325898)

You might want to look at this (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2833266). Has a lot of guides for rangers. I'm using the second one, (battlefield archer), only instead of an elf I'm playing a drow


Thanks! This is great!

[Tegu8788]

Well I am getting a little off topic, but how do the monk and druid synergies as a hybrid? Before I pour in a few hours of research, does the AC stack well?

They can be combined, but it is not intuitive. Being able to use a Ki Focus for all attacks does help, and you can combine druid melee control with monk AoEs, as long as you spend the minor to shift back and forth between forms. You would also be very, very agile, with better AC than the normal druid. Dex and Wis are also both pretty solid stats to have.

Which is to say that it can be done, and if you want to do it, talk to me. Given the difficulty you are currently having with understanding core mechanics of 4E, you are not ready for a hybrid, especially not one like this.

[Kiero]

When you're new to 4E, I strongly recommend against making a hybrid of any kind. Most hybrids are weaker than either base class would be on its own, and finding (and successfully building) one that isn't requires a certain amount of system mastery.

Furthermore, I'd recommend going to talk to the other players first. 4E is a team game, it works best when everyone chooses different Roles to fulfil (Role comes first, then you find a class to fit, not the other way around) and works to get a collection of characters who mesh smoothly.

It doesn't work well at all if everyone goes off and makes their characters in isolation, then turns up with them fully-formed to play.

[windgate]

Reverse the order of your thread title and its workable.

Feat: Treetop Sniper
Pre-requisite: Elf
Benefit: You can use any bow with sneak attack or rogue attack that requires a crossbow.
(source: Martial Power 3)

Make an Elf Rogue with a Ranger MC feat. Feel free to use Novice/Adept/Acolyte power feats to swap some of your rogue powers for ranger ones.



Addiitional:

Theme: Fey Beast tamer (source: Heroes of the Feywild)
Benefit: You gain an animal companion that can be used in combat.

[GPuzzle]

Technically it's Martial Power 2.

[Tegu8788]

While the Fey Beast is the best way to get a combat companion, the multiclassing advice is pretty bad. Assuming you get to Paragon, you can do it far simply using a Half-Elf, grabbing Twin Strike, then Versatile Master to make Twin Strike an at-will, and using the Treetop Sniper feat. Two feats, and you get an actual Paragon Path.


But again, a straight Rogue has plenty of non-standard attacks to pick from, and with some CA you can still do very respectable damage. The Drow has some good support for crossbows. Getting Sneak Attack multiple times during your turn is pretty near impossible, but if you use an immediate attack, it's no longer your turn, so you can use Sneak Attack again. Slaying Action let's you get it again when you spend an Action Point, but I don't think there is any other way.

[windgate]

While the Fey Beast is the best way to get a combat companion, the multiclassing advice is pretty bad. Assuming you get to Paragon, you can do it far simply using a Half-Elf, grabbing Twin Strike, then Versatile Master to make Twin Strike an at-will, and using the Treetop Sniper feat. Two feats, and you get an actual Paragon Path.


But again, a straight Rogue has plenty of non-standard attacks to pick from, and with some CA you can still do very respectable damage. The Drow has some good support for crossbows. Getting Sneak Attack multiple times during your turn is pretty near impossible, but if you use an immediate attack, it's no longer your turn, so you can use Sneak Attack again. Slaying Action let's you get it again when you spend an Action Point, but I don't think there is any other way.


The Advice I gave was tailored for a brand new player with limited to no system mastery. The Paragon multiclass path is almost always a bad choice from an optimization standpoint (I cannot actually think of an exception).

However, when combined with the ____ Power feat lines (and the theme) you end up with almost all the core elements of a ranger combined with sneak attack. The OP didn't really describe why he wanted Ranger in the first place. I was aiming for a catch all solution (with an assumption he intended to use a bow)


The Reality is that a Half-Elf twin striker and a Hybrid Ranger/Rogue will achieve much better results damage wise then I proposed. They are however far more complex and (in the case of the Half-elf) require the system mastery awareness of knowing when Sneak Attack/Quarry can be applied. The half elf also lacks the racial bonus to either of the ranger attacks stats or the classic ranger skills (nature and perception). Those might be a turnoff to the OP.

Why does the OP want to be a ranger ( I still don't know this)?
1) If its the powers: Take ___ Power feats (or ebe a half-elf for Twin Strike)
2) If Its the companion: Take the Theme
3) If its a Bow user with hyper awareness and some minor spells: Consider the Seeker class instead....
4) If the goal is a sneaky archer, take a background for stealth training (or look at the hunter class who specializes in crossbows)
5) Also take a look at assassins and executioners if you want a constantly hidden melee DPS character.


If This Ranger is (1) intended to be melee and (2) you want Sneak attack because of the "surprise = more damage" Take a look at the Scout Class (ranger subtype)

They are simple to play and have an always on stance that gives extra damage anytime you have combat advantage (ie. flanking) It can go further with the feats like "Light Blade Expertise" and "nimble blade" (You can also take the Rogue MC feat for a 1/encounter sneak attack as well to stack on top)