Another 4e beginer

[archon_huskie]

Like the thread below, I am going to be playing my first DnD 4ed.
I am more of a roleplayer than a rollplayer, so I don't care about the mechanical differences between systems. I just need to know how my character works.

Now I problem that I do have is that I don't own the 4ed books and don't really have the spare cash to spend $35 on it. Plus I've only seen one store in my area that carries it.

I also don't know what books the DM has, so I'd like to keep it simple and stay with the player's handbook as that's easy to assume he'll have.

So I'd like to be able to create a character quickly and based off an old character idea.

Dwarven Ranger - likes to work with leather, not stone. Is a skilled hunter/tracker. Motivated by opportunity to hunt and tan different creatures so he likes to travel. And When I'm allowed to play him evil, when he defeats an enemy, he'll make something out his foe's remains. Like a REAL pair of Boots of Elvenkind!

What are feats/things I'd want to look at when I get my hands on the book?

[MunkeeGamer]

The top response you'll hear about this situation is to shell out for a DDI subscription which is totally worth it. It will give you access to a searchable rules compendium with every feat, class, power, rule you'll need.

It also has a character creator which takes into account every core rulebook, splat book, Dragon Magazine, etc. It basically says, "What race?" and then lists every single race you could choose. Then "What class?" with every single class listed and so on.

It can seem overwhelming when you aren't familiar with how 4e is different from 3.x but if numbers optimization isn't too important to you, then you don't have to worry. Just go through step by step, choosing the things you want and you should be fine.

If you have a particular build in mind, you can post your thoughts here and we can provide optimization suggestions. Otherwise, if your preference is ROLEplay, then you just roleplay whatever you want. 4e lets you do the small stuff without requiring a table or a chart. You just proclaim that you do it and your character does it. 4e's rules are there primarily as a guide for tabletop, tactical, grid-based combat.

[GPuzzle]

4e has a combat system that is somewhat reminescent of the bastard child between an RPG without Vancian Casting, a card game and a wargame.

So, while feats are important, there is a lot of stuff about attacks that you should care about. Pick up Twin Strike ASAP, because you are going to spam it. Boring, but it's the best At-Will in the game.

]Jaws of the Wolf is an awesome daily. If he doesn't have Martial Power 2, then you decide what Encounter power do you want, but otherwise, take Off-Hand Strike because your can use it as a minor which means you can use a move action and a minor and a normal action in the same round.

Feats? You get Toughness right out of the gate, so that's +5 health when you start, +5 when you go from Heroic to Paragon and another +5 when you go from Paragon to Epic.

Two-Weapon Attack series of feats is awesome, but requires quite the investiment in Dexteritry, which also buffs your Initiative and your AC if you're using light armor. If you don't want to use Light Armor, ask if anyone on the table is a member of D&D Insider, and go for Edition 400 - there you'll find Battle Cleric's Lore which can be picked up with the Multiclass feat for Cleric (short explanation - you can only take levels in a certain class, but you can take a Multiclass feat and be considered a determined class for just about everything - Paragon Paths, feats, Epic Destinies - or you can be a Hybrid, but it's just too complicated for your own sake) and it allows for Scale Armor Proficiency and +2 bonus to AC. Which is 19 AC right from the start. Sounds good to me.

Taking Expertise (needs the Heroes of the Fallen Lands/Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, forgot which it was) weaponry feats is awesome, and if he has Adventurer's Vault, take the Waraxe proficiency feat for 1-handed d12, which you can use for 2d12 every round with Twin Strike for an average of 13 damage if both attacks from Twin Strike hits.

[allonym]

If you don't want to use Light Armor, ask if anyone on the table is a member of D&D Insider, and go for Edition 400 - there you'll find Battle Cleric's Lore which can be picked up with the Multiclass feat for Cleric (short explanation - you can only take levels in a certain class, but you can take a Multiclass feat and be considered a determined class for just about everything - Paragon Paths, feats, Epic Destinies - or you can be a Hybrid, but it's just too complicated for your own sake) and it allows for Scale Armor Proficiency and +2 bonus to AC. Which is 19 AC right from the start. Sounds good to me.

Taking Expertise (needs the Heroes of the Fallen Lands/Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, forgot which it was) weaponry feats is awesome, and if he has Adventurer's Vault, take the Waraxe proficiency feat for 1-handed d12, which you can use for 2d12 every round with Twin Strike for an average of 13 damage if both attacks from Twin Strike hits.

I have to say that this section is a: overcomplicating things for a starting player with limited sources and b: inaccurate.

Firstly, while it is arguable either way, there is a broad agreement that you cannot take Battle Cleric's Lore with the Divine Healer multiclass feat, and even if you disagree with the interpretation, DMs should (quite rightly) ban doing so (because it's far too strong). Either way the OP already stated he wants to stay in leather as part of his character.

Secondly, don't take Waraxe proficiency, because you have a much better feat available.

OP: Dwarven Weapon Training is an incredible feat. It gives you access to all axes and hammers, including the superior ones, and gives you +2 damage on top of that. Take this, and go for dual waraxes (though dual craghammers is fine too if that fits better). As stated, these are in the Adventurer's Vault, which almost everyone uses, but if you are using PhB only, you're stuck with Battleaxes and Warhammers.

Then, depending on the sources available to you, consider an Expertise feat. If you have access to everything, you'll want the Axe Expertise feat (assuming using waraxes) from the Essentials books, but if not, and you have access to PhB2, you're stuck with Weapon Expertise: Axe. This gives you +1 to hit with all your attacks, which is a great boon to have.

Beyond that, there's a load of things you can take, but it really depends what sources you can use. If you only have PHB1, your best bet is the Two-weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Defence, and Lethal Hunter feats to start with. If you have access to more sources than that, there's lots of other possibilities, but that's the main ones I can think of for heroic tier in PHB1. If you are stuck with just PHB1 you should consider Durable as well - even with Toughness and being a Dwarf, you will take a lot of shots as a melee ranger, so if you start running out of surges, pick up the Durable feat. Anything which boosts Second Wind is immediately more useful on a Dwarf, since you can Second Wind as a minor action. And finally, you should consider multiclassing at some point, though what class you should multiclass into depends on what sources you have.

[GPuzzle]

Sorry and I indeed have a lot of trouble when it comes down to that. Never thought of using Dwarven Weapon Training, as I thought it only applied to Military weapons and not Superior weapons. Then again, I misread Channel Sorcerer Dagger as that it could apply to ALL arcane rolls.
I need to stop writing stuff without double checking, even if I know quite a lot of them.
And Battle Cleric's Lore is used in my table quite a lot but I never actually used it because I am more of a Defender guy or a Leader guy that is more focused on Warlords, Shamans and Bards than Clerics.

[Yakk]

Dwarves where updated to being (+2 Con +2 Wis) *or* (+2 Str +2 Con), your choice. (This was in the Essentials handbooks).

Go with +2 str +2 con.

Pick up Dwarven Weapon's Training as your first feat. This gives you proficiency with all axes, including superior ones.

Use a Waraxe in both hands.

For ability scores, I would go 18 strength 16 dex 12 Wisdom 14 Con, and 10/8 in int or cha (your choice).

For Powers, pick up Twin strike. For your second at-will, pick up anything. Don't use the other at-will, it will be worse than twin strike. Focus fire when fighting.

For your encounter powers, pick up anything that is a minor action or an interrupt, or has more than 1 attack roll on the same target, or is a close burst 1 attack. Make sure it works with melee attacks.

Your daily power should follow the same general rule of encounter powers, or possibly a stance power, which are fun.

Own handaxes or throwing hammers if you can afford it just in case you need to make ranged attacks -- your dex is 2 less, and they are poor thrown weapons, but better than nothing. Note that you only need 1 drawn to use twin strike with them (the second draw and throw is free during the attack).

---

If you have essentials books, you could build a scout instead of a PHB1 ranger. They have some sort of neat out of combat abilities.

---

As an aside, here are the "standard" 4e stat arrays before modifiers from my perspective:
18,12,12,12,10,8
18,13,13,10,10,8
18,14,11,10,10,8
16,16,12,12,10,8
16,16,13,11,10,8
16,14,14,13,10,8

I am recommending "16,16,12,12,10,8", with a +2 str and con, with str/dex being your high stats.

16,16,13,11,10,8 with 13 wis and 11+2 con is another decent option (gives you access to multiclass fighter battle awareness feat).

A dangerous option would be 16+2 str, 13+2 con, 11 dex, 10 int, 16 wis, 8 cha. Burn feats to get chain/scale/plate (ouch!)

Or, go Hybrid Paladin|Ranger, burn your first feat on Waraxe and the second on Paladin Armor (same array).

Basically if you aren't going metal clad, you need to invest in Dex or Int heavily, or you will fall apart in melee.

[Kurald Galain]

As an aside, here are the "standard" 4e stat arrays before modifiers from my perspective:

Don't forget 17/15/13/10/10/8. While you're slightly behind at levels 1-3, you'll be ahead at levels 4-7. It depends on how long your campaign is expected to last, of course.

I pretty much always start a character with at least 19 (17+racial) in his primary stat, because the primary stat is simply that much better than anything else in 4E. So that's also what I would recommend, for most builds at least, and certainly for a straightforward class as the Ranger.

[Yakk]

Here is a level 1 essentials scout dwarf. Playable, but not strong


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 1
Dwarf, Scout
Two-Weapon Style: Spinning Axe Mastery
Ranger Wilderness Knacks: Wilderness Tracker
Ranger Wilderness Knacks: Ambush Expertise
Fey Beast Tamer Starting Feature: Fey Beast Tamer Companion (Young Owlbear)
Dwarf Subrace: Standard Dwarf Racial Traits
Background: Dwarf - Ancestral Home Lost (+2 to Perception)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 12, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 10, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 17 Fort: 12 Reflex: 15 Will: 12
HP: 24 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +7, Stealth +8, Dungeoneering +9, Perception +9, Acrobatics +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana, Bluff -1, Diplomacy -1, Endurance +2, Heal +2, History, Insight +2, Intimidate -1, Religion, Streetwise -1, Thievery +3, Athletics

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training

POWERS
Scout aspect of the wild (scout) 1: Aspect of the Charging Ram
Scout aspect of the wild (scout) 1: Aspect of the Regal Lion

ITEMS
Hide Armor, Waraxe, Handaxe
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

uses "Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms". Has mechanical bonuses for tracking and sneaking the party around. Surprisingly nimble, for a dwarf.

Here is a PHB1 ranger:


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 2
Dwarf, Ranger
Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style
Ranger: Prime Shot
Fey Beast Tamer Starting Feature: Fey Beast Tamer Companion (Young Owlbear)
Dwarf Subrace: Standard Dwarf Racial Traits
Background: Dwarf - Ancestral Home Lost (+2 to Perception)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10.


AC: 17 Fort: 16 Reflex: 13 Will: 14
HP: 36 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 9

TRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +11, Nature +9, Endurance +9, Athletics +9, Perception +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Arcana, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Heal +4, History, Insight +4, Intimidate +1, Religion, Stealth +1, Streetwise +1, Thievery +1

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Armor Proficiency: Chainmail

POWERS
Ranger at-will 1: Marauder's Rush
Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Ranger encounter 1: Off-Hand Strike
Ranger daily 1: Skirmishing Stance

ITEMS
Waraxe (2), Chainmail
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

shown at level 2. It is a strength/wisdom based ranger, so wears chainmail. At level 1, the build has abysmal AC (until it can afford chainmail proficiency).

Another option is a Str/Dex PHB1 ranger (more traditional for a melee ranger) who does not have to pick up chainmail or better. Such a ranger won't be as good a tracker (as tracking is based off of Wisdom).

Yet another approach is a dex/wisdom dwarf ranger who uses a crossbow. That build is much harder to get working. I chose animal companion (never take an animal companion attack power) because it just costs you your prime shot feature (and while prime shot is useful, it isn't great until paragon):

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 1
Dwarf, Ranger
Fighting Style: Beast Mastery
Fey Beast Tamer Starting Feature: Fey Beast Tamer Companion (Young Owlbear)
Dwarf Subrace: Standard Dwarf Racial Traits
Beast Companion Type: Raptor
Background: Dwarf - Ancestral Home Lost (+2 to Perception)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 15, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 17 Fort: 13 Reflex: 15 Will: 12
HP: 27 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +9, Acrobatics +8, Nature +7, Perception +9, Stealth +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana, Bluff -1, Diplomacy -1, Endurance +3, Heal +2, History, Insight +2, Intimidate -1, Religion, Streetwise -1, Thievery +3, Athletics -1

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Superior crossbow)

POWERS
Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Fading Strike
Ranger encounter 1: Fox's Cunning
Ranger daily 1: Skirmishing Stance

ITEMS
Superior crossbow, Greataxe, Hide Armor
RITUALS
Raise Beast Companion
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

In every case I took "ancestral home lost" for +2 perception, and "fey beast tamer" for a young owl bear companion (which grants +2 power bonus to damage on foes adjacent to it).

The crossbow/snowy owl dwarf with the owlbear is a small army. Note that they won't grant you extra attacks (you have to spend your actions to get them to act), but they can give you lots of battlefield presence (they can make OAs -- your action, but with 2 of them you can threaten 18 squares between them), and the owl makes it easy to get HQ on whatever target you want (just have the owl fly over them).

A crossbow ranger(hunter) might also work, as might a hybrid paladin|ranger dwarf who wears plate and (at level 2) dual-wields waraxes.

[Kiero]

Since no one seems to have mentioned it yet, 4e is a team game, you don't just make a character in isolation and turn up to play. You should be co-ordinating with the other players to ensure you at least cover the Defender, Striker and Leader roles.

As a Ranger, you'd be coveting the Striker role, which means ideally the other players should be making sure they've got the Defender and Leader covered, and maybe then Controller before anyone else thinks about another Striker.

I'll echo that sharing a DDI subscription in the group is a worthwhile expenditure.

I'll also echo that a Scout might be a better option if you're less concerned with the mechanical side of things, and especially if you want to be useful out of combat as well as in it.

[neonchameleon]

Like the thread below, I am going to be playing my first DnD 4ed.
I am more of a roleplayer than a rollplayer, so I don't care about the mechanical differences between systems. I just need to know how my character works.

I'd advise dropping those terms. What they were was White Wolf making excuses for not designing their games properly. You might well find you don't like 4e - it goes in for a lot of detailed cinematic combat.


I also don't know what books the DM has, so I'd like to keep it simple and stay with the player's handbook as that's easy to assume he'll have.

So I'd like to be able to create a character quickly and based off an old character idea.

Dwarven Ranger - likes to work with leather, not stone. Is a skilled hunter/tracker. Motivated by opportunity to hunt and tan different creatures so he likes to travel. And When I'm allowed to play him evil, when he defeats an enemy, he'll make something out his foe's remains. Like a REAL pair of Boots of Elvenkind!

What are feats/things I'd want to look at when I get my hands on the book?

First, you probably don't want the Ranger in the PHB. It's the blandest class in 4e - a killer who happens to be trained in either Nature or Dungeoneering and who just kills very effectively. It's also the favoured class of min/maxers.

What I think you're looking for is the Hunter or Scout out of the "Alternate PHB" Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms (http://www.amazon.com/Heroes-Forgotten-Kingdoms-Essential-Supplement/dp/0786956194) (it's a lot cheaper than the PHB because it's a pocket sized paperback with half the number of classes - but all the rules you'll actually need up to date with errata).

For a dwarf I'm not sure whether I'd recommend a crossbow-hunter or a twin axe wielding scout. Either are much simpler to play than a PHB ranger, and are very fluffy with wilderness knacks that let them either do things in the wilderness no one else can, guide through parts of the wilderness, or sleep with one eye open. You'll want an Int of 13 and to somehow grab the Ritual Caster feat to make your wondrous items (this can be done through a multiclass feat into Wizard, Invoker, or Bard - and that will also get you an extra trained skill). There's no crafting skill per se in 4e so just say you craft and if it's not gamebreaking no one will argue. (This is in part a response to all the little traps crafting rules often produce, like the impossibility of creating a pit trap in a practical amount of time). The scout (who can have a backup bow or crossbow) is probably the simpler to play; in combat a whirling ball of twin-axed death who gets an attack with their main hand, then one with their off hand if they hit with the main axe.

[Leewei]

I'd advise dropping those terms. What they were was White Wolf making excuses for not designing their games properly.

Hah!

character limits are stinky

[archon_huskie]

so I have been given new information on the game
THe DM now has 4 players so we'll be able to start soon.

The game will be played in the Eberron world.
These are the books allowed:
player's handbook 1, 2, & 3
Acrane, Martial 1 & 2, Primal, and Psionic Power
And Eberron Player's Guide.

Now when I have played this character concept in the past in 3.5 games, he was a hunter who used a crossbow and traps for hunting, but when he fought, he used an axe and shield to fight melee. He had the shield bash feat combined with the two weapon fighting feat for that. From what I've read so far, that is not going to be an easy conversion. So I am willing to let that go for an easier character build.

I see him as a former soldier from the great war who now travels the land hunting the occassional roaving monster and taking a trophy. or fighting a band of brigands terrorizing a village.

[Rakaydos]

It might be easier to build him as a Fighter who takes a Backround (PHB3) that grants Nature as a class skill, for a more durable, in you face, dont blink or I'll punish you charcter in combat, who by fluff is still a leatherworking nature-dwarf.

Alternatively, the Warden is kind of a warrior-druid type, also works well with sword and board combat, who has several nature-magic auras to protect his friends.

[Tegu8788]

Actually, a shield and axe ranger is possible. Not optimal, but it can be done without a ton of work. Spiked Shield is the easiest option, using the Fighter style that attacks with two melee weapons.

What would be a better combo Fighting Shield and Khopesh. You get your Axe and Shield, but both also count as Heavy Blades, so a single expertise feat boosts both. You'll be a solid frontline combatant, tough enough to have survived a number of skirmishes in your past, with good enough Dex to be decent with a bow on occasion. Feel free to pick shield based Fighter powers and double tap ones.


Not easy, and unless the power specifically says make two attacks, you gotta pick one hand or the other each turn. There are some great Fighter feats based around using shields, which won't hurt.

[Epinephrine]

I'll second the Dwarven axe Scout option; makes for an easy introduction to the game, Dwarven Weapon Training gets a superior weapons, has lots of nature tricks that feel very ranger-like, and a solid character through heroic. Dex as a primary stat on a dwarf might feel odd, but the wisdom isn't a bad secondary to boost.

A dwarf can start with 18 Dexterity, 16 Wisdom and 13 Constitution, and the damage output isn't shabby. There are a few weapon options; Waraxe/Gauntlet Axe provides a defense bonus and some decent damage
Waraxe/light blade (shortsword?) would work if you wanted a bit more accuracy on your main attack (Scouts get a bonus to accuracy with an off-hand light blade, and a bonus to damage with an off-hand axe).
Double Axe is an economical option as it's easy to keep up in terms of the enchantments, and gets you a pair of 1d10 axes (best off-hand damage you can get as a scout) and the ability to call your weapon a two-handed weapon (the Stout descriptor).

[windgate]

so I have been given new information on the game
THe DM now has 4 players so we'll be able to start soon.

The game will be played in the Eberron world.
These are the books allowed:
player's handbook 1, 2, & 3
Acrane, Martial 1 & 2, Primal, and Psionic Power
And Eberron Player's Guide.

Now when I have played this character concept in the past in 3.5 games, he was a hunter who used a crossbow and traps for hunting, but when he fought, he used an axe and shield to fight melee. He had the shield bash feat combined with the two weapon fighting feat for that. From what I've read so far, that is not going to be an easy conversion. So I am willing to let that go for an easier character build.

I see him as a former soldier from the great war who now travels the land hunting the occassional roaving monster and taking a trophy. or fighting a band of brigands terrorizing a village.

Lets see if I am summing up your desires accurately:
Dwarf
Likes axes (or crossbows)
Sword + Shield (or two blades)
non-caster (outside of traps)

at this point, I think you need to determine your role more than the class as the above preferences leave open ALOT of class choices (especially if axe + shield)

Roles:


Leader - Warlord class. Provides both healing (without sacrificing damage dealing) and grants bonus attacks and damage to allies when he hits his target. Certain daily attacks are essentially yelling "chaaaaaarge!" PHB1 class and arguable one of the best leaders in the game due to "Offense > defense" mindset.

Leonidas from the movie 300 sums up the class concept here rather nicely. Requires a primary stat of Strength with a secondary of Wisdom or Int. Can be built for a crossbow, 2 handed weapon or 1 hand + shield.


Defender - Fighter. Strength primary, wisdom secondary. Any time he attacks an enemy, it is marked. if a marked enemy attacks an ally instead of him, he gets an opportunity attack against it. (he also gets to attack if that enemy moves away, even with a "five foot step")

You can build this character with any combination of weapon or shields. A crossbow is possible but not really practical (you would need a strong dexterity score to hit anything and the class favors melee) Despite being defenders, fighters can hit hard. select a multiclass feat for ranger for nature training and to take better advantage of dual wielding.


Striker (kill something really fast) -Ranger. about what you would expect. Choose ranged (dexterity) or melee (strength), The pet is optional. Multiple attacks per round.


Critical feat for you (regardless of class)
Master of Arms: +1/+2/+3 (depending on level) to attack rolls. Once per turn may swap your weapons as a minor (3e "swift") action.

[neonchameleon]

Leader - Warlord class. Provides both healing (without sacrificing damage dealing) and grants bonus attacks and damage to allies when he hits his target. Certain daily attacks are essentially yelling "chaaaaaarge!" PHB1 class and arguable one of the best leaders in the game due to "Offense > defense" mindset.

Leonidas from the movie 300 sums up the class concept here rather nicely. Requires a primary stat of Strength with a secondary of Wisdom or Int. Can be built for a crossbow, 2 handed weapon or 1 hand + shield.

Just to clarify, this isn't healing as in "Zap. Your wounds are cured." It's "healing" as in the Regimental Sergeant Major yelling a stream of invective about no lying down on the job and how his old granny could do better, and the targets finding they had more in reserve than they thought they did. Or healing in the way the roar of the crowd can get behind an athlete causing them to bring out their best. The damager isn't actually cured until the healing surges are replaced.


Defender - Fighter. Strength primary, wisdom secondary. Any time he attacks an enemy, it is marked. if a marked enemy attacks an ally instead of him, he gets an opportunity attack against it. (he also gets to attack if that enemy moves away, even with a "five foot step")

You can build this character with any combination of weapon or shields. A crossbow is possible but not really practical (you would need a strong dexterity score to hit anything and the class favors melee)

The crossbow would be something you carried rather than something you expected to use. Charge in with axe and shield, and pull out the crossbow when people are too far away.

[windgate]

The crossbow would be something you carried rather than something you expected to use. Charge in with axe and shield, and pull out the crossbow when people are too far away.

And even if you miss. the target is still marked :)