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Truwar
2007-01-25, 05:00 PM
I have heard a lot recently about the power of spellcasters lying in their “Save or Die” type spells. Wouldn’t a simple solution fro this be to require that a spellcaster hit the target of their “Save or Die (or be paralyzed, poisoned, dominated, etc.)” with a ranged touch attack? For “Save or Die” spells that have an area affect, you could simply have the caster roll a touch attack for each target.

This would make the direct damage spells a bit more attractive for casters, give non-spellcasters a bit more parity with their enchantment slinging compatriots and be fairly easy to implement.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-25, 05:06 PM
Not really. Touch attacks are remarkably easy to land.

oriong
2007-01-25, 05:09 PM
Yeah, touch attacks are way too simple.

And really, most save or 'something' spells just aren't that great unless you can tailor them to your opponents, otherwise they can easily become a massive waste of energy.

Truwar
2007-01-25, 05:13 PM
Yes they are but even if you only need a 6 to hit with a ranged touch attack, that gives your target a 25% chance of being missed.

That might not be a big deal to a fighter who gets several attacks a round and a functionally unlimited number of attacks a day but if you have a 25% chance of losing your spell and not even getting an effect out of it, you might try a different option.

You wouldn't HAVE to chose a different option but that fireball might not look to bad if you had to roll to hit with your Hold Person spell.

Golthur
2007-01-25, 05:17 PM
The biggest problems I see with save-or-lose/die are these:
With two bad saves, and one good, most classes are very, very susceptible to at least one type of them.
Spellcasters can figure out which one pretty easily.
There are no partial results - i.e. you make the roll, you're fine; you fail the roll, you're done.
Spellcasters can boost their save DCs pretty easily with no real sacrifice to any other aspect of their characters making the "you're done" outcome much more likely.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-25, 05:25 PM
Yeah, touch attacks are way too simple.

And really, most save or 'something' spells just aren't that great unless you can tailor them to your opponents, otherwise they can easily become a massive waste of energy.

Untrue. A lot of Save or X spells are applicable to the vast majority of opponents--and some, like Slow, to essentailly all.

oriong
2007-01-25, 05:28 PM
The biggest problems I see with save-or-lose/die are these:
With two bad saves, and one good, most classes are very, very susceptible to at least one type of them.
Spellcasters can figure out which one pretty easily.
There are no partial results - e.g. you make the roll, you're fine; you fail the roll, you're done.
Spellcasters can boost their save DCs pretty easily with no real sacrifice to any other aspect of their characters.

I think this is part of the problem here actually.

You're looking at it from a class perspective of a wizard hitting a fighter, a rogue, or another wizard with his save or die spell.

D+D is more commonly designed with the monster perspective in mind.

Most monsters have more than one good save, some types have all three. What's more monsters tend to have exceptional ability scores compared to PCs, and much more HD relative to the PCs their fighting. While a 10th level wizard is very likely to take on a 10th level fighter (base fort save of 7), the monster 'equivalent' would be something like the 15 HD fire giant with a base save of 9 and a +5 con bonus (something few fighters can match). Or a young dragon with 16 HD and all good saves at +10 base.

Golthur
2007-01-25, 05:31 PM
I think this is part of the problem here actually.

You're looking at it from a class perspective of a wizard hitting a fighter, a rogue, or another wizard with his save or die spell.

D+D is more commonly designed with the monster perspective in mind.
Somewhat true, but I'm also hitting it with the perspective of "fighter bad guy".


Most monsters have more than one good save, some types have all three. What's more monsters tend to have exceptional ability scores compared to PCs, and much more HD relative to the PCs their fighting. While a 10th level wizard is very likely to take on a 10th level fighter (base fort save of 7), the monster 'equivalent' would be something like the 15 HD fire giant with a base save of 9 and a +5 con bonus (something few fighters can match). Or a young dragon with 16 HD and all good saves at +10 base.

And I'd suggest that all of those attributes of monsters were specifically crafted to counteract the weaknesses in the system w.r.t. characters. It's basically the same reason why, past a certain point, all monsters have ridiculous natural armour bonuses (flesh golem, anyone?)

Is it a terrible thing if a save-or-lose becomes a save-or-suck against a very powerful monster? It still gives the fighters something to do, in that case.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-25, 05:46 PM
CR 5 monsters:
-Large Air elemental: Fort +5 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +13 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will +2 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)
-Young black dragon: Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +7. Weakness in low dex.
-Dire Lion: Fort +9 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +8 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will +7 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)
-Six-headed Hydra: Fort +10 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +6 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will +4 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)
-Manticore: Fort +9 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +7 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will +3 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)
-Spider Eater: Fort +9 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +5 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will +2 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)
-Troll: Fort +11 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +4 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will +3 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)

CR 10 monsters:
-Couatl: Fort +8 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +9 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will +10 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)
-Bebilith: Fort +16 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +9 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will +9 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)
-Rakshasa: Fort +8 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +7 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will +6 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) - but significant SR (Assay Resistance helps a lot)
-Fire Giant: Fort +14 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +4 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will +9 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)
-Juvenile Red Dragon: Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +12 (Dex still weakness)
-Noble Salamander: Fort +12 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +10 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will +11 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)

CR 15 monsters:
-Mummy Lord: Fort +13 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +8 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will +20 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) (Disintegrate, whee!)
-Adult Red Dragon: Fort +18, Ref +13, Will +17 (Dex still weakness)
-Marut inevitable: Fort +7 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +6 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will +8 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) (construct traits limit types of effective spells, but there's plenty)

CR 20:
-It doesn't matter. The wizard wins.



Wizard DCs:
Level 5: 20 INT (18 base, +1 level, +2 item) -> DC 16-18
Level 10: 24 INT (18 base, +2 level, +4 item) -> DC 18-23
Level 15: 28 INT (18 base, +3 level, +6 item, +1 tome) -> DC 20-28

Compare that with the saves. In even the "all-good-save" monster cases, they have a save that's lower than the rest (due to stats) and even with their best save they've got, what, a 40-60% of making it (i.e. Red Dragon's Fort +18 vs. DC 28 level 8 spell)? So you need to cast two spells to be sure. That's always a risk.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-25, 05:55 PM
CR 20:
-It doesn't matter. The wizard wins.


Words to live by, I'm afraid.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-25, 05:56 PM
Words to gate in an infinite army of Titans by.

Kantolin
2007-01-25, 06:19 PM
CR 20:
-It doesn't matter. The wizard wins.

Now now... he might be fighting the evil cultist cleric, druid, or artificer. ^_^

Edit: Then, he can win... but if anyone can give the Wizard a run for his money, it's the full spellcaster wrath of CoDzilla.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-25, 11:46 PM
Wizard DCs:
Level 5: 20 INT (18 base, +1 level, +2 item) -> DC 16-18
Level 10: 24 INT (18 base, +2 level, +4 item) -> DC 18-23
Level 15: 28 INT (18 base, +3 level, +6 item, +1 tome) -> DC 20-28
I just feel the need to point out that, if the elite array is any indication, monsters were balanced assuming a character's highest stat would have, on average, a base of 15. Assuming a perfect 18 seems to be pushing it.

Seatbelt
2007-01-26, 12:06 AM
I use point buy. and even with dice rolls by level 12 my character has at least a natural 18 int. with 28 point buy it's by level 4

Shazzbaa
2007-01-26, 01:08 AM
So it seems the biggest things are to make it not one or the other, and to make save-or-die/suck spells less attractive. Possible fixes include longer casting time for save-or____ spells (giving an option besides simply "You fail an impossibly difficult save), and/or, graduated effects ("It'll kill you if you fail by a lot, it'll stun you if you fail by a little" kind of a thing).

Both of these would require significant going through of existing spells, though.


Has anyone actually played something (homebrew/houserule/similar system) that gave more powerful spells a longer casting time? I see that suggested a lot, and it appeals to me, but I'm wondering how much it actually helps.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-26, 01:25 AM
I just feel the need to point out that, if the elite array is any indication, monsters were balanced assuming a character's highest stat would have, on average, a base of 15. Assuming a perfect 18 seems to be pushing it.

So, you're assuming that said Wizard can't even cast a sixth-level spell? Yeah, that'll certainly put a damper on his effectiveness.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-01-26, 01:33 AM
So, you're assuming that said Wizard can't even cast a sixth-level spell? Yeah, that'll certainly put a damper on his effectiveness.I don't think it's so absurd to presume that a 1st level caster would be unable to cast a sixth-level spell.


Spellcasters can figure out which one pretty easily.See, this is why all of your bards should be morbidly obese, your Rangers and Fighters should wear robes and spell component pouches.... Does that count as meta-meta-gaming?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-26, 01:48 AM
I just feel the need to point out that, if the elite array is any indication, monsters were balanced assuming a character's highest stat would have, on average, a base of 15. Assuming a perfect 18 seems to be pushing it.

4d6, drop lowest, seems standard; that about equals 28 point buy. It is possible to afford an 18--or especially to afford a 16 and be a Grey Elf.

Nevertheless, even if you bump those DCs down by a couple of points, my point still stands.

Bosh
2007-01-26, 03:40 AM
What I'd like to see with save or lose spells is:
-Against critters that are lower level than the caster they should be good one hit killers.
-Against critters that are about the same level as the caster it should be very very very hard to get a one-hit kill. Instead spells should debuff or there should be spells that make the critter vulnerable enough for the one-hit kill spell to go through (i.e. up EVERYONE'S saving throws across the board by a significant amount but include spells that debuff people's saves or something like that which are very hard to avoid and include fun spells that have a small but annoying partial effect if saved against).
-Against critters that are significantly higher level than the caster one hit kill spells should be almost completely impossible to land. Instead casers should debuffs, which should be harder to save against than insta-death spells (including debuffing saves.

I'm not sure I'd like seeing casters be primarily artillery like in 2nd edition, I'd like casters to primary cast:
-debuffs
-save or die spells that only work well at all on low-level critters or critters that have already had their saves debuffed.
-buffs
-utility
-crowd control
-summoning

Since that better matches the kind of magic that casters have in myths and stories.

Darkshade
2007-01-26, 03:53 AM
proper feat allocation for monsters can help with saves, also if you are concerned with the dragon or the fighter, they get treasure and items, ring of spell turning at 20th level can result in that wizard wishing he had never thought about using his save or die spell since he definitely cant make his own save, cloaks of resistance +5 = 25% better chance of making all 3 kinds of saves, then there's the whole part where the wizard needs somatic or verbal components, silence, antimagic zones, grappling/pinning, sneaking up on, there are a lot of ways to deal with save or die casters, a really good one is to act before them, a 20th level fighter properly built should not only have a better initiative (cuz by 20th level you better have improved initiative) but should be able to do enough damage to either kill the wizard outright, or delay and make his spell fail. I don't know why my group never seems to have these problems but i hear other people talking about them so often you dont always need a game mechanics fix if you can simply adjust play style, intelligent monsters dont just stand 200 feet away and ask the wizard to please blast there socks off.

Rigeld2
2007-01-26, 07:09 AM
*sigh*
Foresight. Wizard isnt flatfooted.
Greater Celerity. Wizard gets an action now, even if he loses init.
Timestop. Wizard gets 2-5 rounds to play with the area around you, and theres nothing you can do to stop it.
<insert a jumble of spells off of staves or scrolls or brain to defeat the encounter before the level 20 fighter posited above has a chance to close and stop the wizard from casting any of them>

Saph
2007-01-26, 07:59 AM
-Juvenile Red Dragon: Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +12 (Dex still weakness)
-Adult Red Dragon: Fort +18, Ref +13, Will +17 (Dex still weakness)

Please tell me you don't actually use Shivering Touch in game. Everyone's got SOME standards.

Anyway, if you're worried about save-or-die spells, a better solution would be to increase monster saves and SR (or lower spell DCs, which is pretty much the same thing.)

- Saph

Thomas
2007-01-26, 08:28 AM
Please tell me you don't actually use Shivering Touch in game. Everyone's got SOME standards.

Shivering touch isn't even "save-or-lose." It's just "you lose." No save. You just have to hit, and have to overcome SR (plenty of easy ways to do that; assay resistance is a favorite).

Orzel
2007-01-26, 09:04 AM
1) Hide and MS > Wizards


2) Creatures are smart too. If they are high Int, they are owned by or know a smart person. They should easily get the feats an item to prevent save or die spells just as a wizards prepares a spell to stop each kind on attack.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-26, 09:54 AM
So, you're assuming that said Wizard can't even cast a sixth-level spell? Yeah, that'll certainly put a damper on his effectiveness.
Uh, 15 base. Before modifiers. Since he's 11th level before he even gets sixth-level slots, that gives us two level-up ability increases and, in all probability, a headband of intellect. More than enough to get those sixth level spells. Heck, if he's got the headband, he's already smart enough for 9th level spells!


4d6, drop lowest, seems standard; that about equals 28 point buy. It is possible to afford an 18--or especially to afford a 16 and be a Grey Elf.
Whatever math Wizards used to calculate things appears to say 25 point buy best approximates 4d6, drop lowest, as they recommend 25 points as the "Standard" level.

And those 3 points do mean a lot. At 25 points, if you want a Wizard with 18 Int and still want priority on Dex and Con for survivability, you'd probably wind up keeping Wisdom, Strength, and Charisma at 8. Of course, for a fully min-maxed character, that would be standard.

And then, of course, as you said, there is the Grey Elf.

So, yeah, 18s aren't out of the question. Heck, they happen naturally almost 2% of the time with a 4d6-drop lowest roll. It's just that the game appears to be balanced more against 15s where the average case is concerned.


Nevertheless, even if you bump those DCs down by a couple of points, my point still stands.
Yeah. My comment was more on methodology than conclusion. Two points doesn't matter much except at low levels.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-01-26, 09:56 AM
Whatever math Wizards used to calculate things appears to say 25 point buy best approximates 4d6, drop lowest, as they recommend 25 points as the "Standard" level.For the record, Wizards appears to be wrong on this one. Someone over at the WotC boards wrote a program a while back and ran a million or two trials, and 4d6 drop lowest came out closest to a 28-29 point buy.

Caelestion
2007-01-26, 10:02 AM
I suppose it is at least something that you can't use the Celerity spells whilst flatfooted. Either that or banning them outright.

Golthur
2007-01-26, 10:31 AM
See, this is why all of your bards should be morbidly obese, your Rangers and Fighters should wear robes and spell component pouches.... Does that count as meta-meta-gaming?

I can't say I've never had a character use disguise self to make them look like a big beefy barbarian type to avoid people who target spellcasters. I guess if you're not a spellcaster, you'd have to use more natural means of disguise. :smile:

Mike_Lemmer
2007-01-26, 11:09 AM
If you want to nerf Save or Lose spells, I'd suggest making them a 2-step effect. Fail the first save, you get hindered; fail the second save a round later, you lose. It gives the victim another chance at making the save but, more importantly, it gives his allies a chance to react before it hits the fan.

Truwar
2007-01-26, 11:24 AM
If you want to nerf Save or Lose spells, I'd suggest making them a 2-step effect. Fail the first save, you get hindered; fail the second save a round later, you lose. It gives the victim another chance at making the save but, more importantly, it gives his allies a chance to react before it hits the fan.

Actually, that is why I proposed the ranged touch attack. It accomplishes the same thing you are shooting for (giving a higher chance for the Save or Lose spells to fail) but it is MUCH easier to implement and keep track of. It would be a pain to have to modify EVERY save or lose spell out there.

It also forces spellcasters to think about something besides their spellcasting stat.

Lial Swiftlight
2007-01-26, 11:39 AM
Most save-or-die spells only hit one target, or only take out a certain number of hit dice, or something.

I find groups of monsters works best. If the party's level 10, don't hit them with one CR 10 monster, hit them with two CR 8's, or four CR 6's. Sure, mr. wizard may be able to one-hit the first demon, but he can only fire off one spell at a time, so what's he gonna do about the other 3? Even if he can take them all, he's gonna run out of save-or-die spells eventually.

silvermesh
2007-01-26, 11:40 AM
Trueseeing = Dead Sneak

True seeing doesn't grant a bonus to spot or listen checks, it reveals magical disguises and invisibility. mundane hiding is unaffected.


True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-26, 11:43 AM
Trueseening is only effective against magical concealment. Ordinary camoulflage can still beat it, as can total concealment (hiding behind something).

Simued. Darn it.

clericwithnogod
2007-01-26, 11:46 AM
The game mechanics are balanced off of a 25-point point buy using the wealth-by-level guidelines and a balanced party. The further you get from this, the less balanced the game will be. In general, not having a low score is considered to be more beneficial than having a high one (this is mentioned in regard to HP in the average HP option). So, this may be why 25 point-buy is considered to in effect be equal to 4d6 drop one. If you're supposed to survive encounters and kill the mobs, not dying is better than killing the mobs faster. On average you win, on better than average you win faster, but on below average you die - losing XP and time in-game.

When it's save or die, one or two points most certainly matters...just as it does when overcoming Spell Resistance, which is all or nothing. One point is the difference between life and death.

Over the long haul, consistency favors the players and randomness the mobs, which are supposed to die anyway. If your DM is going to pull back when the mobs have a streak of luck and save against your save or dies several times in a row, and all the mobs are continuing to do nasty things back at your party, leaving you to try to whittle them down from nearly full strength (with the party weakened from absorbing damage and effects themselves), this is great.

If your DM lets the dice fall as they may, you can be just as well off or better off dealing consistent direct damage, say a Holy Storm or Haboob, supplemented by more consistent direct damage (damage spell or spells of chioice) and in combination with your meleers churning away, which means a string of bad luck leaves you facing a significantly weakened force rather than one that is more or less at full strength.

It's like any other optimized tactic. There's a downside to it and players that consistently use it, without having to face the consequences of that downside, will abuse it.

Truwar
2007-01-26, 11:51 AM
Yes, I just noticed that change to the spell. I suppose I would have to say "Iron Ody + Horrid Wilting = Dead Sneak. Unless of course the spellcaster simply summoned something that could find or turned into a dragon.



The game mechanics are balanced off of a 25-point point buy using the wealth-by-level guidelines and a balanced party. The further you get from this, the less balanced the game will be. In general, not having a low score is considered to be more beneficial than having a high one (this is mentioned in regard to HP in the average HP option). So, this may be why 25 point-buy is considered to in effect be equal to 4d6 drop one. If you're supposed to survive encounters and kill the mobs, not dying is better than killing the mobs faster. On average you win, on better than average you win faster, but on below average you die - losing XP and time in-game.



I have to disagree with this. Ending the encounter as swiftly as possible is the best way to survive them. The quicker your opponents go down, the less time they have to damage or kill your characters.

Divides
2007-01-26, 12:03 PM
So, you're assuming that said Wizard can't even cast a sixth-level spell? Yeah, that'll certainly put a damper on his effectiveness.

Base 15. By the time a wizard gets access to 6th level spells, they've already had two level based stat boosts.

(Or just see Shhalahr Windrider :P.)



See, this is why all of your bards should be morbidly obese, your Rangers and Fighters should wear robes and spell component pouches.... Does that count as meta-meta-gaming?

I don't know... but that MAY explane the strategy behind clerics of Levistus :-p.



For the record, Wizards appears to be wrong on this one. Someone over at the WotC boards wrote a program a while back and ran a million or two trials, and 4d6 drop lowest came out closest to a 28-29 point buy.

The point is you don't have the same level of control over 4d6, drop the lowest.

It's about overall power levels of the character, not actual stat average. A fully min-maxed character with a slightly lower average is generally equal to or even better than an "average" character with higher stats.



I suppose it is at least something that you can't use the Celerity spells whilst flatfooted. Either that or banning them outright.

If you want any semblance of balance, then it's probably best to ban about 2/3rds of the stuff in PHBII, IMHO. (Or, you know, all of it, depending on your taste :-p.)

Caelestion
2007-01-26, 12:11 PM
The Shapeshifting Druid variant is a brilliant idea. I like it a lot :)

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-26, 12:40 PM
Please tell me you don't actually use Shivering Touch in game. Everyone's got SOME standards.

No, I don't. There are other ways to hit a monster's dex score, such as the less-cheesy Ray of Clumsiness/Ray of Exhaustion combo.


Edit: cleric, one or two points matter, sure, but they don't matter much for my calculations. Monsters will still fail their saves regularly; two spells are, on average, enough to get a CR-appropriate monster to fail its non-highest save.

As for monsters hurting you--that's part of why battlefield control is so superior to direct damage. Direct damage doesn't stop them from hurting you now, it just kills them a round faster. Battlefield control--walls, solid fog, et cetera--keep them from hurting you now *and* later, and debuffs can keep them from doing it entirely or almost entirely.

Caelestion
2007-01-26, 12:58 PM
Well, without meaning to, a Sun Elf Wiz 3 of mine has all but ended two combats with two spells. The first was webbing a small blue dragon and thus giving everytime to breathe while we considered what to do next. The second was using burning hands on a barricade made of kindling and brambles, which promptly ignited and filled the area with choking grey smoke.

Thrawn183
2007-01-26, 01:15 PM
Wizard DCs:
Level 5: 20 INT (18 base, +1 level, +2 item) -> DC 16-18
Level 10: 24 INT (18 base, +2 level, +4 item) -> DC 18-23
Level 15: 28 INT (18 base, +3 level, +6 item, +1 tome) -> DC 20-28

Compare that with the saves. In even the "all-good-save" monster cases, they have a save that's lower than the rest (due to stats) and even with their best save they've got, what, a 40-60% of making it (i.e. Red Dragon's Fort +18 vs. DC 28 level 8 spell)? So you need to cast two spells to be sure. That's always a risk.

Yeah, I'm running a party of 13th level characters and the wilder puts out two death urge powers at DC 27 to save per round... I have yet to have a monster a)make its save or b) survive critting itself for 3 full rounds. He and his cohort would have a decent chance at taking out the entire rest of the party.

Rigeld2
2007-01-26, 02:29 PM
DC27-10(base)-4(level)-4(augmented)=+9 from Charisma... and hes spending 30pp per round doing that. Kinda expensive. (But yes, effective)

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-26, 04:11 PM
For the record, Wizards appears to be wrong on this one. Someone over at the WotC boards wrote a program a while back and ran a million or two trials, and 4d6 drop lowest came out closest to a 28-29 point buy.
I'd like to know more about the methodology this "someone" used. There are all sorts of questions regarding 4d6b3 rolls that one cannot obtain with point buy and how one handles stat sets that allow for rerolls. That all matters. I also know of someone from rec.games.frp.dnd that did a similar experiment that favored the elite array.

It sounds like the key difference that one—the person from the WotC boards—is just looking at the average point buy value for all these sets. Meanwhile, I know the person from the rec.games newsgroup actually looked at the average spread of abilities. And it sounds like WotC felt the latter was more important in balancing against 4d6b3.


I have to disagree with this. Ending the encounter as swiftly as possible is the best way to survive them. The quicker your opponents go down, the less time they have to damage or kill your characters.
The point being, you're still concerned with survival. Even if it takes an extra five rounds, survival is survival.

It's like this:
Below Average: Dead
Average: Survive
Above Average: Survive and end fight sooner
All that really matters is you don't wind up in the first category. Sure, being able to end the fight faster aids in your survival, but it is not required for said survival.


DC27-10(base)-4(level)-4(augmented)=+9 from Charisma... and hes spending 30pp per round doing that. Kinda expensive. (But yes, effective)
It's more expensive than that.

A 13th level, the wilder can't normally spend 15 points on a given power. I'm going to assume the wilder gets around this by using its Wild Surge class ability. That will carry with it a 10% chance of Psychic Enervation, a small, but notable risk, especially if the two targets of these powers have more friends ready to take advantage of said enervation.

If unwilling to risk the enervation, the wilder could use the feat Overchannel instead. Since death urge is a 4th level power, one cannot use Talented to negate the damage. That gives us an average cost of 13.5 damage per manifestation, or 27 damage per round. The Wild Surge is actually less risky.

In addition to the above, the wilder requires a way to actually manifest death urge twice per round. The wilder does not have enough manifester levels to manage Quickened or Twinned versions of the power, nor do Wild Surge or Overchannel grant a large enough bonus to cover the cost. The next option would be use of the power schism (gained through the Expanded Knowledge feat). Though that doesn't work, either, as one of the death urges has a base manifester level of 7, and even while using a wild surge would be unable to augment it to a three round duration.

I may be overlooking something, but I don't see how this wilder gets two death urges per round.

Caelestion
2007-01-26, 07:03 PM
I think someone is pulling the "it's psionics - of course it works that way" trick again (and possibly even the "PPs regenerate over time, without needing 8 hours' rest" gimmick).

Darkshade
2007-01-26, 09:29 PM
*sigh*
Foresight. Wizard isnt flatfooted.
Greater Celerity. Wizard gets an action now, even if he loses init.
Timestop. Wizard gets 2-5 rounds to play with the area around you, and theres nothing you can do to stop it.
<insert a jumble of spells off of staves or scrolls or brain to defeat the encounter before the level 20 fighter posited above has a chance to close and stop the wizard from casting any of them>
I will admit the PHB II spells make it a little trickier but many of them are batsh*t nuts and shouldn't be in the game anyway...

no reason whatsoever a prepared fighter at 20th level wont have a ring of celerity, greater, or perhaps a ring of spell storing with greater celerity in it, the wizard casts his celerity and the fighter follows suit, just like in good old magic the gathering with immediate spells the fighter then gets to resolve his, at which point he can chop the wizard down to size. not to mention that that foresight is only 10/minutes per level, say 3 1/2 hours, it'll take at least 5 of them to cover your entire waking day, doesnt leave you much space to have a timestop, and not all enemies attack you only when you are ready

oh yeah there's also that 1 hour period every morning when you are "occupied" great tiem to ambush a spellcaster.

btw if every spellcaster reacts to any kind of threat that way then have a 20th level fighter with leadership send 5 fifth level weenies, one at a time, to scare the wizard into using all his resources.

Darkshade
2007-01-26, 09:32 PM
you can also have your fighter walk around with a constant antimagic field.
thats right, the wizard proofer
in which case the best he could ever do with timestop is run away since he cant do anything to the spell effect that is in normal time, nor can he enter the are of the antimagic field

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-26, 09:39 PM
No, the wizard can just fly up and be safe from you. And then either pelt you with instantaneous conjurations like Orb of Force, or Gate in a Titan to smoosh you for him.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-26, 09:42 PM
Hmm... if save or die attacks become touch attacks and you create a new kind of magic armor enhancement that lets you keep your armor in a touch attack (requires anti-magic field to create, costs +3 enhancement because that's damn good) then it might even itself out a teeny bit. Maybe likewise create a high-level (possibly epic) feat with high req's that allows characters to keep their natural armor against touch attacks as well. The casters could STILL overcome this with stuff like True Strike, but it starts becoming trickier at least for the low-BAB mage.

Arbitrarity
2007-01-26, 09:44 PM
Gate solar cheese! Yay!

Darkshade
2007-01-26, 10:28 PM
No, the wizard can just fly up and be safe from you. And then either pelt you with instantaneous conjurations like Orb of Force, or Gate in a Titan to smoosh you for him.

your right no legitimate fighter ever has a bow or is smart enough to ready actions to disrupt spells.

Caewil
2007-01-26, 10:39 PM
Wind wall. 3rd level spell.

Jade_Tarem
2007-01-26, 10:40 PM
No, but a legitimate fighter is still gonna have a hard time putting arrows through an Otiluke's resilient sphere. It's notoriously hard to hit a wizard when one of those springs up after contingency goes off. And anti-magic field doesn't protect you from, as mentioned, big bad summons spells. Heck, all you really need is a wall of iron and telekineses. Summon. EeeeeeeeeBAM!

And claiming that the fighter is going to ambush the wizard while he's meditating assumes at least one of several things:

1) The fighter somehow deserves an advantage.
2) The wizard can't do the same thing (better, actually, due to magical wards and divinations)
3) The fighter is equipped solely for wizard killing.

The fighter is limited by money to only a single-digit number of good wizard killing gimicks. A level 20 wizard is virtually uninhibited in the number of ways he has to fend off an attack.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-26, 10:40 PM
your right no legitimate fighter ever has a bow or is smart enough to ready actions to disrupt spells.

OH NO! 1d8+a few! You can't possibly make that concentration check! Or cast Wind Wall!

Darkshade
2007-01-26, 11:19 PM
firstly you are assuming we are outside where you can fly above and away, putting you in a dungeon room with said fighter with antimagic field kinda trumps that, but anyway lets go back to that whole foresight bit...
unless i missed something complete adventurer dictates that casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action provokes no attacks of opportunity, but nowhere under the immediate action spells does it say it does not provoke an attack of opportunity, so if the DM rules that it does provoke then its a lot easier to bone the wizard, just use any dimension door or teleport effect to show up next to the wizard, prefferably with Sun School, as the action that begins the combat, the foresight ability does not warn of any spells that do not target the wizard, so you could easily antimagic field at this point as he is still flat-footed and unable to cast immediate action spells, even if he can cast the spell if it provokes, he may well try to cast defensively there is an easy feat chain to make that still provoke at which point you slice him in half. or if you get the antimagic field up you can simply grapple him and pound him into the dirt. Silence 10' radius also works well to stop the celerity spells as it does not target the caster so it doesnt warn him with foresight and it then prevents the verbal component.
is a 20th level wizard hard to surprise and or kill? yes
but he should be.

Darkshade
2007-01-26, 11:20 PM
OH NO! 1d8+a few! You can't possibly make that concentration check! Or cast Wind Wall!

there is some kind of weapon ability or class ability that ignores windwalls for archers but i dont have the book on hand, also a mighty bow + specialization + magic arrows, can end up with more damage... also manyshot is a standard action and can be readied in case you wanna turn that concentration check up a notch

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-26, 11:20 PM
Be an intel rogue instead. Being a sneaky b*****d is a prerequisite :D

Rigeld2
2007-01-26, 11:41 PM
no reason whatsoever a prepared fighter at 20th level wont have a ring of celerity, greater, or perhaps a ring of spell storing with greater celerity in it,
None of those work. They all take standard actions to activate while the spell takes an immediate action to cast. Sorry Fighter.


the wizard casts his celerity and the fighter follows suit, just like in good old magic the gathering with immediate spells the fighter then gets to resolve his, at which point he can chop the wizard down to size. not to mention that that foresight is only 10/minutes per level, say 3 1/2 hours, it'll take at least 5 of them to cover your entire waking day, doesnt leave you much space to have a timestop, and not all enemies attack you only when you are ready
Sorry, if youre arguing with custom items, then you can assume that either a Craft Contingency Greater Celerity is set to go off if I lose init or I have a persisted Foresight using metamagic rods.


oh yeah there's also that 1 hour period every morning when you are "occupied" great tiem to ambush a spellcaster.
I'm in my Mage's Magnificent Mansion, or on my own custom plane. Good luck finding me to ambush me tho!


btw if every spellcaster reacts to any kind of threat that way then have a 20th level fighter with leadership send 5 fifth level weenies, one at a time, to scare the wizard into using all his resources.
a single 5th level weenie isnt a threat, so a level 20 wizard will spend almost no resources on it.

As for the Anti-Magic Fighter, I can still toss all kinds of spells at you. Instantaneous Conjuration spells will hit a target inside of an Anti-Magic field.

Darkshade
2007-01-27, 01:20 AM
None of those work. They all take standard actions to activate while the spell takes an immediate action to cast. Sorry Fighter.


Sorry, if youre arguing with custom items, then you can assume that either a Craft Contingency Greater Celerity is set to go off if I lose init or I have a persisted Foresight using metamagic rods.


I'm in my Mage's Magnificent Mansion, or on my own custom plane. Good luck finding me to ambush me tho!


a single 5th level weenie isnt a threat, so a level 20 wizard will spend almost no resources on it.

As for the Anti-Magic Fighter, I can still toss all kinds of spells at you. Instantaneous Conjuration spells will hit a target inside of an Anti-Magic field.

but he instantly knows which fighter is 20th level and which is fifth?
also foresight which keeps you from being flat-footed only triggers for things that target you which allows someone to get close enough to be standing next to you when they surprise you, not usually a good situation for a caster

Rigeld2
2007-01-27, 01:23 AM
but he instantly knows which fighter is 20th level and which is fifth?
Permanent Arcane Sight. Most level 20 fighters will have an abundance of magical auras.

also foresight which keeps you from being flat-footed only triggers for things that target you which allows someone to get close enough to be standing next to you when they surprise you, not usually a good situation for a caster
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm
Cant surprise me. And I'm never flat footed.

Darkshade
2007-01-27, 01:39 AM
potions of nystuls magical aura, or potions of nystul undetectable aura

that foresight is different then in the book, did i miss an erratta?
however it only warns you of impending danger or harm, someone activating an antimagic field would not trigger that warning and though you might not be flatfooted, you cannot intterupt an action with your immediate spell if you do not know that that action is occuring.

Caewil
2007-01-27, 01:45 AM
Please, let's not have this discussion again.

What it comes down to is that to just be able to have a chance at beating a Wizard, a fighter has to have custom items, feats based on wizard killing, leadership and all sorts of other things. At the same time even a non min-maxed Wizard will probably own him.

Darkshade
2007-01-27, 01:47 AM
Arachnid, you do make a good point, but i still think that only really applies to a straight class fighter.

PinkysBrain
2007-01-27, 07:51 AM
Monte Cook also wrote a bit about this :

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_144

clericwithnogod
2007-01-27, 08:34 AM
I have to disagree with this. Ending the encounter as swiftly as possible is the best way to survive them. The quicker your opponents go down, the less time they have to damage or kill your characters.

As a tactic it is almost always better to deal damage than to take and heal damage and drag combat out. But, you need a certain base amount of survivability to account for poor roles of the dice because sooner or later, something bad is going to happen early on and you don't want to be vulnerable to one-hit kills yourself. You need a certain number of hit points to keep you up long enough to deal significant damage after the mobs have taken both a surprise round and won initiative, you need a decent enough armor class that some attacks miss, you need to make an occasional saving throw. The problem you run into with glass cannons in DND, is that there are usually serious consequences to dying (significant out of game time and/or loss of an amount of experience and power that you may have taken a month or more to gain), as opposed to MMOs where the consequences are significantly less (no out of game time and experience you can usually make up in an hour or two).

If the game devolves into a series of one-hit kills either way, that's no fun for anyone.

Rigeld2
2007-01-27, 10:03 AM
Arachnid, you do make a good point, but i still think that only really applies to a straight class fighter.
As opposed to...?

Rigeld2
2007-01-27, 10:16 AM
potions of nystuls magical aura, or potions of nystul undetectable aura
The first cant be made into a potion since it targets an object not a creature. Oh, and Magic Aura hides an aura - it doesnt create one. And once its exposed to identify or a similar magic, its real aura is exposed. Arcane sight, being higher level than identify, should count, but thats a DM call. The second, I have no idea what spell youre talking about since its not in the SRD and im too lazy to look it up.


that foresight is different then in the book, did i miss an erratta?
My book that is well over a year old has all that text and more - it implies that since I would know about someone about to leap out of hiding and draw a sword being hostile to me, I would know that youre hostile to me and about to activate a magic item that is dangerous to me.

however it only warns you of impending danger or harm, someone activating an antimagic field would not trigger that warning and though you might not be flatfooted, you cannot intterupt an action with your immediate spell if you do not know that that action is occuring.
Anti-Magic field is dangerous to me. Hence, it would be triggered. Hence, I would be able to Greater Celerity.

No more on this subject from me, bring it to PMs if you want. Honoring the wishes of the others in the thread.

Draz74
2007-01-27, 05:48 PM
The biggest problems I see with save-or-lose/die are these:
...

Spellcasters can boost their save DCs pretty easily with no real sacrifice to any other aspect of their characters making the "you're done" outcome much more likely.

That's why I say one of the easiest and most effective partial solutions to spellcaster power is just to base their spell DCs on another ability, like the Favored Soul has to deal with. I don't think it ruins Wizard flavor to require a good Wisdom of them if they want good spell DCs. (Sure, there are lots of stories of foolish, reckless wizards, but they aren't usually the ones with really effective hard-to-resist spells.)

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-27, 05:49 PM
Indeed. Actually might turn the "Good Will Save" into an "Excellent Will Save," too.

Darkshade
2007-01-27, 09:02 PM
The first cant be made into a potion since it targets an object not a creature. Oh, and Magic Aura hides an aura - it doesnt create one. And once its exposed to identify or a similar magic, its real aura is exposed. Arcane sight, being higher level than identify, should count, but thats a DM call. The second, I have no idea what spell youre talking about since its not in the SRD and im too lazy to look it up.

in 3.5 it folded them both into one spell, nystuls magical aura targets an object not a person, it can be made into an OIL just like magic weapon, it fools any detect spells or similar effects, Arcane sight is an instant DETECT magic, not an instant identify.



My book that is well over a year old has all that text and more - it implies that since I would know about someone about to leap out of hiding and draw a sword being hostile to me, I would know that youre hostile to me and about to activate a magic item that is dangerous to me.

Anti-Magic field is dangerous to me. Hence, it would be triggered. Hence, I would be able to Greater Celerity.

No more on this subject from me, bring it to PMs if you want. Honoring the wishes of the others in the thread.

no in the more text that is in my book and i am sure yours it is very specific that it warns you of something targeting you or that will harm you, that is a very specific term, it does not mean something that will make your powers not work as that is not harm, it is certainly inconvenient and it is certainly bad for you, but it does not harm or damage you or target you. Foresight targets you not other people it does not read minds, it only warns you when sometyhing is about to happen TO YOU

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-28, 04:55 AM
Foresight is a very powerful divination. It looks into the future. Target or not, it warns you of things.

tarbrush
2007-01-28, 02:15 PM
My personal preference would be to make DCs less absolute. By that i mean that passing by 5 or more should significantly reduce the effect of a spell and failing by 5 or more should result in being screwed.

Unfortunately, that would involve rewriting pretty much every save-or-X spell going and then trying to balance 4 potential results rather than 2. So not really practical.

Rigeld2
2007-01-28, 05:35 PM
in 3.5 it folded them both into one spell, nystuls magical aura targets an object not a person, it can be made into an OIL just like magic weapon, it fools any detect spells or similar effects, Arcane sight is an instant DETECT magic, not an instant identify.
Youre right - my apologies. The wording in the SRD isnt that great (it says oils are similar to potions, except oils are applied externally. Nothing about changing the fact that potions can only be made for spells that target creatures.)


no in the more text that is in my book and i am sure yours it is very specific that it warns you of something targeting you or that will harm you, that is a very specific term, it does not mean something that will make your powers not work as that is not harm, it is certainly inconvenient and it is certainly bad for you, but it does not harm or damage you or target you. Foresight targets you not other people it does not read minds, it only warns you when sometyhing is about to happen TO YOUFrom the SRD:

Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. (my emphasis)
As specific as you said it was, you are wrong. Impending danger is pretty specific, and someone walking up to me, covered in magic auras, going to activate an Anti-Magic Field (yay custom items again) is pretty dangerous.

None of this adresses the fact that I have a Contingent Teleport set to go off when I lose more than half of my HPs back to a safe house.


Again, please use the PM system this board has to continue this discussion. I only posted in the thread because you did. I'd rather not clutter it up.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-01-28, 05:38 PM
There was something similar to that with the 3.0 version of heal. Except it didn't have a save at all. Basically all you had to do was make the touch attack and the monster suddently had 1d4 HP left. I don't think there are many (if any) save or die type spells left from the conversion once WoTC found out how over powered they were.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-28, 05:44 PM
There was something similar to that with the 3.0 version of heal. Except it didn't have a save at all. Basically all you had to do was make the touch attack and the monster suddently had 1d4 HP left. I don't think there are many (if any) save or die type spells left from the conversion once WoTC found out how over powered they were.

You mean spells like Slay Living and Finger of Death?