Seeking A S̶o̶l̶d̶i̶e̶r̶'̶s̶ ̶S̶o̶l̶d̶i̶e̶r̶ Paladin's Paladin!

[Palanan]

WANTED: Strong second-in-command for roving warlord. Must have superior combat skills, experience with field logistics, demonstrated bravery under duress. Strength and stamina preferred to flashy maneuvers. Results-oriented with unbroken record of conquest.

Must be competent at small-unit command, able to manage large-scale formations as required. Must adapt to fluid tactical environment. Considerations of honor subordinate to mission success.

Must be professional military, personally loyal to commander, not concerned with righteous causes. Pragmatism valued over piety. Absence of family commitments a strong positive.

The magically inclined need not apply.



I could use ideas for a seventh-level battlefield commander, a natural with soldiers who leads them thundering into the fray. He should be a straight-up fighting man, a natural second-in-command who takes orders and gets results.

I'd like to do this without spellcasting or ToB, and I'd be especially interested in slightly offbeat base classes. I see him as a stand-your-ground combatant, armored and two-handed, but I'm open to suggestions.



This offer void where prohibited by king's law or tribal custom. Please exercise safety and common sense when meeting prospective applicants.

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[DR27]

Marshal/Knight? Very, very few printed options since you are disallowing both magic and ToB for your concept. Bards and White Raven are basically the main published methods for melee fighters to do what you want.

The only other viable option would be T.G. Oskar's Marshal Retool (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186681), but I get the impression that if you aren't into magic or ToB, you probably won't be looking for home-brew either.

[Nihilarian]

With your stipulations, Marshal is really your best bet. I'd take a look at Heroes of Battle though, particularly Legendary Leader.

There's also Dragon Lord from Dragon Magic.

Finally, there are ways to snag Bardic Music without taking levels in Bard. After that, standard IC optimization.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by DR27
Marshal/Knight?

In fact, the knight would be very close to what I had in mind, if it weren't for the Knight's Code and the challenges, which don't really fit here.


Originally Posted by Nihilarian
I'd take a look at Heroes of Battle though, particularly Legendary Leader.

There's also Dragon Lord from Dragon Magic.

Thanks for the suggestions; those are both interesting, especially the Dragon Lord, although a seventh-level character wouldn't be able to take more than a level or two at most.

Looking for something more...centurion-y? There's gotta be something out there.



And if there's homebrew that's appropriate, I'll gladly take a look. I respect the local brew.

:smalltongue:

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[Gwendol]

Paladin, seriously. Do away with the Code, and take the Smite to Song feat in order to get the Bard Inspire Courage. Pump it as high as it can be, but stay away from DFI. Take the Purple Dragon Knight PrC asap (there are several versions, with different entry requirements. I suggest picking one that allows paladin advancement so that the mount isn't left behind).

The knight is a good class, but not very leader oriented. This one will be.

[Diovid]

Paladin is a decent choice, especially since it (like other core classes) has had quite a bit of support.

First, you'll want to use this version (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a). It might be minor but you gain something without losing anything. You can also look at using skilled city-dweller (Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) to trade Handle Animal for Gather Information

Furthermore, the paladin is quite customizable, see here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=3rgh77oals03dmbfbrjt2qrhj1&topic=7908) for all variants and acfs. For example if you want to be spell-less, you can use the Holy Warrior variant (from Complete Champion) to gain fighter feats instead of casting. Or if you want to trade away your mount you could use the Charging Smite acf (PHB II) or the Divine Spirit acf (Dungeonscape) or the Stand Fast acf (Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)). Or if you want to be chaotic good instead of lawful good you can use the Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures) (Unearthed Arcana). Many of these variants and acfs can be combined.

[JaronK]

Sadly Warblade and Crusader are the best at this, but without them Marshal/Paladin is probably your best bet. If you want no casting at all, there's a non casting variant for Paladins. Or just do something simple like Marshal 2/Paladin 3/Fighter 2. That lets you be very charismatic and also good at just smacking stuff. You also boost your nearby allies in a useful way.

JaronK

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Gwendol
Paladin, seriously.

*paladin advice*

You know, this nudged me to take another look at the paladin, and I appreciate the suggestion. I'm now convinced paladin is the way to go.


Originally Posted by Diovid
Paladin is a decent choice, especially since it (like other core classes) has had quite a bit of support.

*more paladin advice*

I've gone through the list of paladin ACFs, as well as the substitution levels from Champions of Valor, and Holy Warrior will be a definite. I'm also thinking about the Golden Cup substitution levels, since they mesh fairly well with the idea of a tactical leader who looks out for his men. Stand Fast is another option, although I'm not sure if I'll go for a fifth level of paladin.


Originally Posted by JaronK
Or just do something simple like Marshal 2/Paladin 3/Fighter 2. That lets you be very charismatic and also good at just smacking stuff.

Definitely thinking about a couple of fighter levels in there, purely for the bonus feats.

I'm really not sure where to go with feats: I like Song to Smite, and Combat Brute looks great for what I have in mind, so Improved Bull Rush should probably be in there too.



...I've actually never built a paladin before. Where should I go with this?

:smallconfused:

.

[Gwendol]

Ok, so here's a suggested build:

Human Paladin 7, Holy Warrior variant (CC p49). Dump Wis, STR>CON=CHA>DEX

Level 1: Dreadful Wrath (Human), Smite to Song
Level 3: Power Attack
Level 4: Divine Might
Level 5: Charging Smite or Divine spirit (Spirit of healing: 2x lay on hands)
Level 6: Extra smite (or Leadership?), Curse Breaker (replaces remove disease)

This will be a charismatic leader of men who can seriously put a dent in the opposition. Give him a Badge of Valor for an extra +1 to IC, and have him take Perform(Poetry) to recite heroic poems of old while fighting.

[Fax Celestis]

You could try my d20r warlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165950). Backconverting to 3.5 for it would be really easy. Give it 4+Int skills off of a decent list, fighter proficiencies, and get rid of the Prowess line.

[Gwendol]

You could consider making the last level a level of Marshal. It will grant you a minor aura.

[kardar233]

The A-Game Paladin (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376) is an excellent support/leadership build.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Fax Celestis
You could try my d20r warlord.

Interesting, thanks, but I'm not a big fan of auras--that's why I didn't go for the marshal.


Originally Posted by kardar233
The A-Game Paladin is an excellent support/leadership build.

Very interesting, that's good to know about. It favors spellcasting, though, and includes SotAO, which would be great except this guy won't be casting spells.


Originally Posted by Gwendol
Ok, so here's a suggested build:

Human Paladin 7, Holy Warrior variant (CC p49). Dump Wis, STR>CON=CHA>DEX

Thanks very much for working this up, I appreciate it.

I should've mentioned that I'm allowing one flaw, so I might shift Power Attack to first level, and try something like this:


1st - standard: ..From Smite to Song
........human: ....Power Attack
........flaw: ........Dreadful Wrath
2nd -
3rd - standard: ..Improved Sunder
4th - Holy Wr.: .Cleave [?]
5th - Sp. Mnt.: ..Charging Smite [?]
6th - standard: ..Combat Brute
7th -

One question is how many levels of paladin I actually need here, and whether a level or two of a good PrC would be helpful at all. The fifth level of paladin looks useful--a special mount to trade out, an extra smite per day--but the next couple levels really don't have anything I'm looking for.

Also, I'm happy to trade that special mount for something else, but I'm not that thrilled with either Stand Fast or Charging Smite. The former is 1/day and seems a poor trade, while the latter is 1/ or 2/day and fairly meh. Apart from Underdark Knight, is there anything else I could trade the special mount for?

[Kaje]

Dragon Magazine has variant paladins of other alignments, including ones not covered by Unearthed Arcana. A couple of them even get Leadership at level 5 instead of a horsey.

[Irk]

Try and find the sublime way variant marshal (homebrew), that ought to do it. Also, draconic auras in dragon magic.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kaje
Dragon Magazine has variant paladins of other alignments, including ones not covered by Unearthed Arcana. A couple of them even get Leadership at level 5 instead of a horsey.

Most of these are in Dragon #310, and I have a well-thumbed copy right here on my desk. :smalltongue:

It's a good suggestion, and I really wanted to use one of them, but they're all much more thematic than I'd like. The Anarch has issues with structured life and goes around smiting law; the Sentinel turns outsiders and gets a celestial mount; the Incarnate communes with nature and has an elemental thing going on. Each of them has its merits, but none is really what I'm looking for.

If I had to put a name to the concept, I'd call this guy the Paladin of Conquest. He's not interested in dedicating himself to good, but he's not motivated to terrorize people either; he's there to accomplish military objectives and bring his people home.



Speaking of which, the more I think about it, the more the last couple levels of paladin seem dispensable. Question is, what should I replace them with? Two levels of fighter, to pick up Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper? Or a PrC to improve his talents at frontline command?

[Kaje]

What about the Lawful Neutral Enforcer? He sounds pretty perfect for what you're describing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275093#5), scaled down.

Make it Cloistered Cleric 1/ Half-Orc Paragon 1/ Paladin 5, still a Frostblood Desert Half-Orc with the Half-Humans variant.

Substitution levels and ACFs remain unchanged except trade the special mount for Charging Smite in PH2.

Bonus feats (race, class features, magic locations in CS, story): Endurance, Knowledge Devotion, Law Devotion, Menacing Demeanor, Skill Focus: Intimidate, Iron Will, Nymph's Kiss
Flaws and traits unchanged from the linked build.
Feats: Dreadful Wrath (F), Practiced Spellcaster: Paladin (1), Ancestral Relic (3), Melodic Casting (F), Divine Defiance (6)

Get max ranks in Intimidate and Perform, at least one rank in each Knowledge skill that's necessary for Knowledge Devotion, Kn: Arcana at least 5, and prerequisites. Never Outnumbered skill trick from CS. Give him Ride and Handle Animal if it would be fitting, you can give him a special companion/mount for story reasons (a Megaloceros from Frostburn would be cool).

7th level NPC WBL is only 7,200 gp. His Ancestral Relic's magical properties should only cost him half price at most. He could have bought any junk loot that would have been sold for half value for that price, gotten back a portion of that when cash was split, and sacrificed the full value of that junk loot to upgrade his relic.
Ancestral Relic: Masterwork Breastplate (450 gp), +1 (500 gp), Fearsome (DotU, 2,500 gp), total cost 3,450 gp
+1 Greatsword, Wand Chamber (DS), 2,450 gp
Masterwork Tool: Intimidate, Perform (+2 to each, something he wears on his head) 100 gp
Healing Belt (MIC), 750 gp
Wand of Rhino's Rush (SC), 30 charges, 450 gp

He can counterspell like a boss, he'll be able to hit like a truck by casting Rhino's Rush and using Charging Smite, and his multiple fear effects will make him a force to be reckoned with. Keep in mind that fear effects stack (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0), and he has Dradful Wrath (triggers on Rhino's Rush), Inspire Awe, and move-action Intimidate checks.

[Gwendol]

The PrC I would suggest is the previously mentioned Purple Dragon Knight. The pre-reqs are awkward, and I suggest just pick it up once you hit the right BAB.

[CyberThread]

The build the others have suggested with the race bring lumi

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kaje
What about the Lawful Neutral Enforcer? He sounds pretty perfect for what you're describing.

To a degree, yes, and I did look at this one longer than the rest. But the Enforcer has issues with chaos, which my Paladin of Conquest is pretty comfortable with; and the Enforcer also goes around commanding undead, which my guy is not.

Also, strictly speaking the Enforcer "will never knowingly associate with chaotic characters," which pretty much rules out most of my guy's squad.

:smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
Make it Cloistered Cleric 1/ Half-Orc Paragon 1/ Paladin 5, still a Frostblood Desert Half-Orc with the Half-Humans variant.

*lotsa supporting stuff*

Whew! Very interesting and information-rich, as always. Thanks for working that up; it's not quite where I want to go with this guy, especially as far as spellcasting, but some great ideas in there. The Fearsome armor will definitely find a home, and I like the idea of a ferocious raptor-wing helmet as a masterwork tool for intimidation.

:smalltongue:




Originally Posted by Gwendol
The PrC I would suggest is the previously mentioned Purple Dragon Knight. The pre-reqs are awkward, and I suggest just pick it up once you hit the right BAB.

Yup, I was keeping that in mind. It shows up in three different books (!), and the prerequisites are definitely awkward, better suited for a traditional mounted paladin.

I might try to grab it, except that the IC ability doesn't stack with the bardic version--none of the three descriptions mention the possibility. As it stands it would give me more uses, but wouldn't do anything to improve the IC bonus.

So I've been shopping around for other options; looked at Tactical Soldier, Legendary Leader, Knight of the Chalice, Holy Liberator, etc. etc.

--And then I found the War Chanter, which is great for what I had in mind. Inspire Toughness in particular is perfect for a squad of elite soldiers, and the War Chanter Music gives extra uses of IC, so it should work out pretty well.

[CyberThread]

is ignored :(