(pathfinder, dnd) Casters - all spells and no class

[Naoki00_]

My horrid attempts at a witty title aside, I've had a thought for a while now and would like to ask if anyone here shares or even slightly understands my thoughts lol.

Alright so to begin I'm one of 'those' people, in that when I see someone playing a full caster I think "well, there goes my hope of actually mattering" in the worst sense and "Please don't be a optimizer" at the best. I admit this is a very biased opinion and that arguing that point is something that can't be won or lost so it's not the issue, but this mentality made me wonder WHY I don't like them so much, and I came to a conclusion. I've never liked full casters not because they literally do anything, but because the WAY they do anything.

In my humble and albeit likely flawed opinion, the reason that a casters power and their sheer prevalence bothers me because they don't have any 'class' powers at all, and only get spells, making them both unappealing to play to me and unappealing to see succeed so well. Spells alone to me feel very 'meh' in that they are a limited resource thats all from the same list per class, instead of being something unique and (to me) meaningful, like how a barbarian gets Rage and only things like him get it, or the rogue gets sneak attack. Now the argument of course is that Casters therefore cast, but ANY person should technically be able to use magic through scrolls, wands, etc.

My thoughts are that while I think pathfinder with Sorcerer bloodlines and such are a nice step I'd love to actually see caster classes have unique and definable abilities beyond generic spells, like shouldn't someone who is a pyromancer just plain out cast fire spells, and better than a general caster would? shouldn't evocation mages be able to mitigate the flaws of monster hit point advancements by specializing to the exclusion of other schools?. One idea (which might help the whole 'spells are too strong' mentality for some) I thought of would be to reduce full casters to only 6th level spells max (which are more then strong enough often enough), and instead give them more defined class ability paths and combat options.

This obviously doesn't entiely apply to casters like Summoner or Druid, though being able to sacrifice spells for being a better eidolon controller or wildshaper might be nice for some. Of course all this is only opinion and I'm not saying 'nerf casters' or such, just wondering if others find them as boring in concept and to play as I do and if the idea is something people here might agree with and possibly enjoy lol

[Quiddle]

I see what you mean. Personally when I want to play a full caster I go the route of dread necromancer, beguiler, or one of those other tier 3 casters. Unfortunately this option doesn't exist explicitly in pf but hey pf is backwards compatible right? :smallsmile:

[Naoki00_]

I see what you mean. Personally when I want to play a full caster I go the route of dread necromancer, beguiler, or one of those other tier 3 casters. Unfortunately this option doesn't exist explicitly in pf but hey pf is backwards compatible right? :smallsmile:

Indeed it is lol. though some converting is needed with the skills and such. I personally like the Dread necromancer too, though I wish it had a bit more to offer in some categories (maybe stealing life force instead of skeleton making), but thats just nitpicking lol. I always loves bards as my 'caster' of choice XD, utility and class.

[Naoki00_]

bumps for fun

[xroads]

Spells alone to me feel very 'meh' in that they are a limited resource thats all from the same list per class...

Yeah, but not even wizards have all the spells for their class in their spell books. So caster spell selection will vary. If anything, it's the non-caster classes and their selections that seem limiting at times.

[Psyren]

In Pathfinder, all the casters have "class powers" so I'm at a loss as to what you're looking for here. And while there may not be a "pyromancer" per se, you can very easily build one (with the proper incentives/disincentives) as you see fit.

[watchwood]

What a wizard does depends entirely on the player. If he wants to take the spotlight, he can.

On the other hand, if he wants to be a buffer/support type then he can definitely do that as well.

If you've got a problem with the character, talk to the player.

[goose1009]

Personally i think making each of the wizard subtypes (Transmuter, conj, diviner, etc..) its own class would probably go a long way to helping.

Give them something similar to the sorc bloodline for each school of magic. It would give them multiple thematic abilities as they level up.

As for spells, they would get all spells in their school and then maybe to add a little variety, give them the ability when they level to add one spell from any school into their spellbook.

Could maybe even make the classes focus on different key stats. Diviners need a decent wisdom, Enchanters a solid charisma, transmuters a high con.


I think its a great idea and would probably really help bring wizards in line. But then more work would have to be done to some of the other casters as well.

[NotScaryBats]

I think there are a ton of neat feats and things in books like Complete Mage that get totally looked over because they aren't really optimal. Still, they're neat and I think do kind of what you're talking about.

Stuff like Toughening Transmutation:
"Whenever you cast a transmutation spell, you can choose to grant yourself or any one creature targeted by the spell damage reduction 5/magic. If the creature already has damage reduction (of any type) from another source, you increase that damage reduction by 5 instead. This effect lasts for 1 round."

Now, compared to Metamagic Feats, Item Crafting, even Improved Initiative, is granting 1 round of DR a good choice of a feat? Hell no. But, it is kinda cool, and would make a great Transmuter Class Feature. If you crop the lists down, give people more spells a day, or maybe some minor SLAs that let them stay relevant past 3-5 spells in early game, this could be neat.

An Evoker could have something like Eldrich Blast or Fiery Burst to fall back upon -- still able to do some consistent damage, all day long. If you want to play a Blaster Mage, only able to blast like 5 times is probably not what you're hoping for.

[watchwood]

Personally i think making each of the wizard subtypes (Transmuter, conj, diviner, etc..) its own class would probably go a long way to helping.

Give them something similar to the sorc bloodline for each school of magic. It would give them multiple thematic abilities as they level up.

As for spells, they would get all spells in their school and then maybe to add a little variety, give them the ability when they level to add one spell from any school into their spellbook.

Could maybe even make the classes focus on different key stats. Diviners need a decent wisdom, Enchanters a solid charisma, transmuters a high con.


I think its a great idea and would probably really help bring wizards in line. But then more work would have to be done to some of the other casters as well.

Only if you massively revamp the spell lists. Diviners would have almost 0 combat options, enchanters would be useless against constructs, undead, and similar foes, and Conjuration would be the best class since it's got options for nearly everything anyways. The rest of the classes would all fall somewhere in between.

[Naoki00_]

In Pathfinder, all the casters have "class powers" so I'm at a loss as to what you're looking for here. And while there may not be a "pyromancer" per se, you can very easily build one (with the proper incentives/disincentives) as you see fit.

well I did say they go the right direction to me lol. But the abilities are just really lacking in scope it feels like. for example in the Sorcerers case if I'm an undead bloodline I'd think that they would have more stuff then 1st level do something, 3rd level do something" then needing to wait all the way to 9th level (which in my honest opinion alone is too long to wait for something moderately cool) to do something 1/day.

I'd like to have bloodline matter beyond a few little things that are weaker to compensate for the overwealth of spells. I just think it would be more fun lol, and yes you CAN make a pyromancer type person, but it's really not something you SHOULD do, because theres no way to make pure blasting actually work without home ruling and or only 2 encounters at a time

[Naoki00_]

I think there are a ton of neat feats and things in books like Complete Mage that get totally looked over because they aren't really optimal. Still, they're neat and I think do kind of what you're talking about.

Stuff like Toughening Transmutation:
"Whenever you cast a transmutation spell, you can choose to grant yourself or any one creature targeted by the spell damage reduction 5/magic. If the creature already has damage reduction (of any type) from another source, you increase that damage reduction by 5 instead. This effect lasts for 1 round."

Now, compared to Metamagic Feats, Item Crafting, even Improved Initiative, is granting 1 round of DR a good choice of a feat? Hell no. But, it is kinda cool, and would make a great Transmuter Class Feature. If you crop the lists down, give people more spells a day, or maybe some minor SLAs that let them stay relevant past 3-5 spells in early game, this could be neat.

An Evoker could have something like Eldrich Blast or Fiery Burst to fall back upon -- still able to do some consistent damage, all day long. If you want to play a Blaster Mage, only able to blast like 5 times is probably not what you're hoping for.

That IS pretty neat lol, and yeah if things like that were part of the class features themselves would be really nice and I think feel more rewarding for actually choosing different spells then the same ones I see taken all the time (you know the all purpose win buttons, glitterdust, black tentacles, etc)

[Naoki00_]

Only if you massively revamp the spell lists. Diviners would have almost 0 combat options, enchanters would be useless against constructs, undead, and similar foes, and Conjuration would be the best class since it's got options for nearly everything anyways. The rest of the classes would all fall somewhere in between.

Hmmm, I could see diviners getting all kinds of initiative bonuses and maybe things like if they have someone under a divination effect or what have you, they can predict and 'counter' their moves with an AOO?, Enchanters I could see actually being a boon against constructs, like maybe since they you know, enchant, they are better at disrupting those enchantments and can slow them down or do 1 round AMF on an enchanted thing, or could enchant inanimate objects with unstable magic and use them like bombs. Conjuration is a tricky one to think of though lol

[Psyren]

Note that the mods tend to frown on double- and triple-posting here.


well I did say they go the right direction to me lol. But the abilities are just really lacking in scope it feels like. for example in the Sorcerers case if I'm an undead bloodline I'd think that they would have more stuff then 1st level do something, 3rd level do something" then needing to wait all the way to 9th level (which in my honest opinion alone is too long to wait for something moderately cool) to do something 1/day.

I'd like to have bloodline matter beyond a few little things that are weaker to compensate for the overwealth of spells. I just think it would be more fun lol, and yes you CAN make a pyromancer type person, but it's really not something you SHOULD do, because theres no way to make pure blasting actually work without home ruling and or only 2 encounters at a time

Pure blasting works just fine without houserules; against some monsters it is even your best option.

Bloodlines/School powers/Hexes etc. are balanced around that character also having a full list of spells it can cast. If you're going to buff the class abilities, you should scale down the spellcasting to compensate, or at the very list restrict/incentivize them to a list of spells that fits the bloodline/theme.

[goose1009]

Hmmm, I could see diviners getting all kinds of initiative bonuses and maybe things like if they have someone under a divination effect or what have you, they can predict and 'counter' their moves with an AOO?, Enchanters I could see actually being a boon against constructs, like maybe since they you know, enchant, they are better at disrupting those enchantments and can slow them down or do 1 round AMF on an enchanted thing, or could enchant inanimate objects with unstable magic and use them like bombs. Conjuration is a tricky one to think of though lol

This would be better for a new edition or a complete overhaul of magic. I do think it would help bring things in line, it would cause a few more spells to be made for a few of the schools. But then that would be what the "One spell per level outside of your chosen school" is designed to help do.

[Naoki00_]

Note that the mods tend to frown on double- and triple-posting here.



Pure blasting works just fine without houserules; against some monsters it is even your best option.

Bloodlines/School powers/Hexes etc. are balanced around that character also having a full list of spells it can cast. If you're going to buff the class abilities, you should scale down the spellcasting to compensate, or at the very list restrict/incentivize them to a list of spells that fits the bloodline/theme.

well I said in the openning post I thought it would be more fun to have them scaled down to 6th level spells and get more actual class abilities lol. I know their balanced around having the games "I win" button at their disposal and all, and I've never found blasting to legitimately work like it SHOULD, but every game is different after all lol. In my experience monster just have too much health and you get too few spells a day for blasting to be too great, since you'll rapidly burn through your reserves instead of going "mass save or die/suck" and similar

[Psyren]

In theory/when playing alone, blasting is ineffective, because a monster at 1HP hits as hard as one at full health. You basically have to optimize it to the point that it is one-shotting monsters, in order for it to be as useful a tactic as casting a control spell, otherwise you will waste actions and slots on it.

In practice however, you're usually playing the game with friends (it was designed that way after all) - and direct damage, while still less effective than control, is still capable of taking monsters out of a fight before they can get an action once you factor in your allies' attacks as well. More importantly, it does so without making the other party members feel irrelevant.

As for your suggestion - I agree, if you plan on buffing their class features then dropping them to Bardic progression is reasonable.