Toughness, more than just extra HP (Feat Redux)

[Popertop]

Okay, so I started this thread in the 3.5 forum, and I think I came up with a workable idea.

My goal for the initial Toughness feat is to be viable as an option to shore up the defenses of a fighter-type for low-mid op in the early levels while still having relevance late-game.

For the Improved Toughness feat (which has Toughness as a pre-req of course) I was thinking of giving some magical protections that would make the feat more attractive than just moar HP. Tell me what you think about these.

Toughness
Prerequisite: 13 Con

This character is preternaturally tough. When you take this feat, you gain twice your Con modifier in HP per level, and again when you gain a level.

This feat also grants you a +2 bonus to your Fortitude save, and +2 Natural armor, which stacks with any existing Natural armor bonus.


Improved Toughness
Prerequisite: Toughness

This character has learned to apply the concepts of durability even at a metaphysical level, toughening his mind and spirit to magical and supernatural attack.

This feat grants you a +2 bonus to Will saves, and whenever you make a Fortitude or Will save, you roll twice and take the better result.

In addition, you can choose two of the following benefits when you take this feat, and for every additional time you take this feat:

DR/-, Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, or Sonic resistance equal to twice your Con modifier.

SR or Miss Chance % equal to 10 plus your Con modifier.

All of the benefits provided by this feat are Extraordinary.

Both of these feats are on the Fighter Bonus list.

I'm still wondering if I should make the requirements more strict, maybe have Improved Toughness only available by around level 8.

[Amnoriath]

Okay, so I started this thread in the 3.5 forum, and I think I came up with a workable idea.

My goal for the initial Toughness feat is to be viable as an option to shore up the defenses of a fighter-type for low-mid op in the early levels while still having relevance late-game.

For the Improved Toughness feat (which has Toughness as a pre-req of course) I was thinking of giving some magical protections that would make the feat more attractive than just moar HP. Tell me what you think about these.

Toughness
Prerequisite: 13 Con

This character is preternaturally tough. When you take this feat, you gain twice your Con modifier in HP per level, and again when you gain a level.

This feat also grants you a +2 bonus to your Fortitude save, and +2 Natural armor, which stacks with any existing Natural armor bonus.


Improved Toughness
Prerequisite: Toughness

This character has learned to apply the concepts of durability even at a metaphysical level, toughening his mind and spirit to magical and supernatural attack.

This feat grants you a +2 bonus to Will saves, and whenever you make a Fortitude or Will save, you roll twice and take the better result.

In addition, you can choose two of the following benefits when you take this feat, and for every additional time you take this feat:

DR/-, Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, or Sonic resistance equal to twice your Con modifier.

SR or Miss Chance % equal to 10 plus your Con modifier.

All of the benefits provided by this feat are Extraordinary.

Both of these feats are on the Fighter Bonus list.

I'm still wondering if I should make the requirements more strict, maybe have Improved Toughness only available by around level 8.

Well, you just made Toughness the feat that any melee character would be stupid not to take(80 to 100, 140-160 for Incarnum or ragers at level 10, finally don't ask about Bearfist Fistbear). Honestly, much better than your improved version. While the DR-(L1 Human with 8-10 DR) is quite massive the SR and Miss Chance are paultry(are you really going to be calling 16 numbers on a d100 or is 16 SR going to matter?). The resistances are really small. Toughness should be cut down to 2 hit points a level which is equivalent to Bear's Endurance with slight AC bonus.

[Popertop]

I was worried it wouldn't be good enough lol. I could restrict some of the benefits according to level.

I'm striving to make the Improved version desirable for somewhat high-op games, so how do we improve that feat?

I'm not entirely liking the idea of SR, its never really impressed me to begin with. What are some other protections (primarily against magic/casters) that would be feasible for a feat like this?

[Debihuman]

The toughness feat you wrote is far too overpowered. Compare this to Alertness for example where you a a +2 bonus to two skills. As a DM, I would never allow it.

Debby

[Popertop]

If its too strong, then we can restrict it with more requirements, but I want beefy types (Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin etc) to be able to take this at lower levels where the HP will still be relevant as well as the AC buff.


Also I don't think anyone is clamoring to take the +skills feats, so that doesn't strike me as a great comparison. As a DM I wouldn't let my players take those because of how weak they are lol. I enjoy more high-powered games.

Maybe compare it to something that melee characters actually use in their builds, such as Power Attack, or Pounce. I want this feat to provide a similar benefit, although defensively.

[Amechra]

I'd say Toughness should let you treat your Constitution as 2 higher for the purposes of how much HP you have and your bonus to Fortitude saves.

Improved Toughness would increase this to 4 higher, and give (some other benefit here).

[anacalgion]

Just to throw in my two cents, my favorite version of Toughness (which I shamelessly stole from someone else) gives a pool of temporary hit points equal to 2 x (Con Mod + level) that refreshes with a short rest. That way it not only helps at low levels a fair bit and remains relevant later, it stays good the whole day without being too crazy.

[Kamai]

I echo the statement that basic Toughness might be too much (I'm not sure if a feat slot should be worth 50hp at 10th, let alone what else you could pull off). I'm not sure how you might word this, but maybe a minimum move speed (even if the character would otherwise be immobilized).

The other worry about the feat is what happens if a Cleric/Druid get a hold of it? Imagine a Druid using Bear's Endurance, then Wild Shaping into say, a bear (Polar, Con 19). He gets nearly as much out of it as your raging barbarian, and still has a full assortment of spells.

[Popertop]

I like that idea about the temporary HP pool, that does seem like a nice alternative to what I'm trying to do.


The main purpose of this feat is to help the non-casters with resources they normally wouldn't have access to, so a Cleric or Druid have much better feats to take other than this. (For instance, Divine Metamagic, or Natural Spell)


I feel like I have enough information to come up with a few different workable versions of the initial toughness feat, but I need some more ideas for Improved Toughness.

I want the focus to be on protection from attacks these melee types would appreciate that is missing from the Fighter chassis and other low-tier combatants.

[Just to Browse]

HP does not scale linearly or quadratically, because it's based on a non-scaling function (level 1 HP) added to a linear function (HP from levels after 1) added to a non-linear scaling value with large variance multiplied by a linear function (Con Mod x Level).

There will be no satisfactorily simple formula that provides a noticeable amount of HP or temp HP. 2 x (Con Mod + Level) can vary by over 400% at level one and it's only barely pulling its weight as a good feat choice at level 20.

[Seerow]

The toughness feat you wrote is far too overpowered. Compare this to Alertness for example where you a a +2 bonus to two skills. As a DM, I would never allow it.

Debby

This feat may be going too far, but Alertness should not be the standard any feat ever is held to for balance.

[Kamai]

For the second feat, how would you feel about downgrading conditions?

Paralyzed->Immobilized->Half movement speed
Panicked->Frightened->Shaken
Nausated->Sickened
Stun->Slowed
Ability Drain->Ability Damage->Ability Penalty for 1 hour

There are probably others that fit in here, but again the worry would be that a caster gets a hold of this feat. I also wouldn't necessarily let them go off the track completely, given this is still a feat that can be taken at level 1.

[Amechra]

Part of me thinks that Improved Toughness should be a 1/round No Sell.

I.e., once per round it negates all damage they would take from a single attack or effect as an Immediate action.

Give it a Con prereq and a BAB prereq, and we should be good.

[Tanuki Tales]

This feat may be going too far, but Alertness should not be the standard any feat ever is held to for balance.

Seconding this.

[Popertop]

I'm having trouble coming up with restrictions to place on the feat to prevent casters from taking it, but I also don't want to hurt Paladins or Rangers.

Maybe if you have CL equal to your HD you don't qualify?


I think reducing the duration/downgrading conditions is another fabulous idea. I think the Helix Warrior from D20 Modern gets a similar ability, can't believe I didn't think of that before.

[Kamai]

I'm having trouble coming up with restrictions to place on the feat to prevent casters from taking it, but I also don't want to hurt Paladins or Rangers.

I'm not sure how you would word it, but if you could cap the highest level spell that you could cast if you take these feats, it might do the trick. Suddenly, if you're capped at 6th level spells for taking these 2 feats, full casters probably won't do it. It'd be like the mage slayer feats, but even less biased against the 1/2 class level casters.

[Pyromancer999]

I'm having trouble coming up with restrictions to place on the feat to prevent casters from taking it, but I also don't want to hurt Paladins or Rangers.

Maybe if you have CL equal to your HD you don't qualify?


I think reducing the duration/downgrading conditions is another fabulous idea. I think the Helix Warrior from D20 Modern gets a similar ability, can't believe I didn't think of that before.

The CL restriction doesn't necessarily make sense, though. If a caster wants tot take these feats and be tough, they should not be penalized for doing so, especially since it would be enough of a penalty taking away feat slots from going towards enhancing their magical ability, although as they are now, they would be a worthy trade.


I'm not sure how you would word it, but if you could cap the highest level spell that you could cast if you take these feats, it might do the trick. Suddenly, if you're capped at 6th level spells for taking these 2 feats, full casters probably won't do it. It'd be like the mage slayer feats, but even less biased against the 1/2 class level casters.

The downgrading of conditions is a good idea, but no feat should impose a spell cap on a caster. It's way too severe.

What would most likely be for the best would be to make it so that while it grants a benefit to all classes, it grants more of a benefit to Melee-oriented classes, by either scaling it with BAB, Fighter levels, or something similar.

[HammeredWharf]

I'm having trouble coming up with restrictions to place on the feat to prevent casters from taking it, but I also don't want to hurt Paladins or Rangers.

Scale it with BAB and/or HD size. For example, whenever you get a point of BAB, you get double HP from the HD of the class that gave you that point of BAB. So a Barbarian would get d12 HP every level, while a Wizard would only get d4 every two levels.

[fafnir300]

I would make your toughness feat have slightly more requirements and only allow probably 2-6 hit points per HD along with the other bonuses. Improved Toughness seems to be on the cusp of being considered epic. I would lower the bonuses abit and increase the requirements. hopes this helps.