Druid Archer, flavor not power

[Shadowdagger213]

I am trying to create an Archer that's not a Ranger, or a Druid kind of an Archer.

What I am mostly concerned with here is CRAFTING. This is a 10th level build and I only have 49,000gp to work with, and traveling alone. The low level Druid spells up to level 3 are better than the Ranger gets his whole career.

Best I was able to (almost) make work was a Human Paragon 3/Druid 1/Fighter 6.

This build gave me (with Practiced Spellcaster) the ability to Brew Potions of healing, longstrider, Shilelagh oil, and Cure light wounds to level 5. Also Craft wonderous items. I fleshed out a "Figurine of Animal Training" for less than 3000gp that worked 10 times a day.

Also allowed me to make up to +2 weapons/bows/armor with Wildwood, Darkwood, or Dragonskin if I switched a few feats around.

Damage came from the Ranged Weapon Specialist line. Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and RWS all on the Longbow. With a 16 STR that netted me a damage of 1d8+10@30ft or less.

NO Tome of Battle, NO Factotums or Swordsages, NO books to support most of the dips and gestalts I see so much of (and bummer, I'd love to try them but not allowed)

Is this an ok build? I was thinking of trying to work some Order of the Bow into this. Remember this is not about the power gaming, it's a lot of roleplay and mostly for the flavor of an Archer, connected with Nature, eventually going to get much better with the magic, but this is where he is now.


Thoughts? (Not "You're Screwed", or "Just play a Wizard" or anything like that) Just looking for ways to get more of the feel for "more than a Ranger, more than a Fighter, less of a Druid but gonna get there soon.

.....And, go!

[Piggy Knowles]

Druids get access to Snowsight and Obscuring Snow, which I've been messing around with for archers over on my archer build thread. I'm on my phone now, but I have a druid build stub for an archer kicking around on a google doc somewhere. I'll try to post it this afternoon.

[eggynack]

I think I have a way to make this reasonably feasible. Instead of going the obvious zen archery (CW, 106) route, what if you were to use wild shape to take the form of a desmodu hunting bat (MM II, 65), and then use fangshields druid substitution levels (CV, 40) or gloves of man (SS, 57) to allow bow use while in bat form? That'd get you 24 dexterity, which is a solid amount for bow use, as well as 60 foot (good) flight speed, and if you use enhance wild shape (SpC, 82) you get 120 foot blindsight. All of those things are good for archery. You'd have to take a monstrous race to get fangshields druid substitution levels, so I'd advise anthropomorphic bat (SS, 215) preferably with dragonborn (RotD, 8).

Basically, the plan is to take a full ten levels of druid and fly around as a bat all the time, which is standard druid operating procedure, except you use substitution levels such that you can sometimes use a bow. Should work out reasonably well. I don't know what the exact buff setup is for archery, but you can probably do some fun stuff with spells up to 5th level.

[JaronK]

I'm definitely going to second Snowsight + Obscuring Snow. Being impossible to see (and thus target) while being able to attack just fine is devastating.

Also, you said Druid not Ranger, but would you consider the Prestige Ranger from Unearthed Arcana? You can be a Druid/PrC Ranger, and a two level dip gives you access to Ranger only spells and a bonus feat at the cost of one level of casting.. There are a lot of great archery spells that are Ranger only. It might be worth your while, and it's found in the SRD so it might be accessible in your game.

JaronK

[bekeleven]

Take druid at level 1 so you can use Human Paragon to advance its spellcasting +2 levels.

[Psyren]

You should throw out the 6 fighter levels. At absolute maximum you should take 2, and I wouldn't even do that many personally.

I'm going to second JaronK's suggestion of Prestige Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeRanger) - if you're going to set caster levels on fire this will give you the same benefits for cheaper.

I'd also suggest trading out your wild shape since you're unlikely to be able to use it with a bow. This druid variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) gives up your wild shape in exchange for Wis to AC and a bunch of ranger-like bonuses. The fast movement will come in handy on an archer.

[Eldariel]

If you want to be a Druid Archer, is there any reason you aren't just going full Druid? You can be a perfectly viable Archer while still getting all Druid stuff (animal companion, wild shape, spells, A Thousand Faces) that way. Hell, some of the spells help with Archery; Wind Tunnel for instance is flat +5 to hit and doubled range increment for 1 encounter for a 5th level slot. That's nothing amazing but a nice plus. And yeah, there's a lot of vision game in Druid's arsenal; Spot buffs, stealth buffs, hard-to-detection, etc.

You can also Wild Shape into a strong, dexterous primate for extra stats to draw your bow with higher strength and more accuracy. Hell, you can even use A Thousand Faces to appear yourself while at it; anyone with True Seeing sees you as yourself anyways while anyone without it also sees you as yourself so the background shape is just invisibly helping. And you can certainly just use Zen Archer [Complete Divine] to shoot and cast off the same stat.

[WhamBamSam]

I remember seeing something not too long ago (might've been in Piggy's archer build thread, actually) about Wildshaping into an Arrow Demon as a relatively innocuous use of Planar Shepherd that would probably be acceptable at the average table and make for a fun archer.

Or just do what eggynack says, because Druids. Except for the part where you use Dragonborn on your Anthropomorphic Bat, since that'll turn it into a Humanoid (Dragonblood). The only thing that actually stays non-humanoid after the Ritual of Rebirth is a Dragonwrought Kobold, since they still qualify for feats as members of their original race, and hence still qualify for their feat which has the effect "your type is dragon, rather than humanoid." A Lightkeeper or Wyrm of War Dragonwrought Dragonborn Earth Kobold is probably comparable to Anthropomorphic Bat as a high power Druid race, and seeing as archery is feat intensive Wyrm of War might help the concept a little more if your DM will allow it.

If your DM doesn't allow Anthro Bats or Dragonwrought Kobolds, the best non-humanoid race options are Neraph (also gets you proficiency in all martial weapons courtesy of the outsider type), Aasimar with the LA bought off (outsider type goodies as with Neraph, with an extra +2 Wis), Synad, Elan, or Warforged if you can stomach the Wis penalty.

JaronK's suggestion of a 2 level dip into Prestige Ranger also isn't bad for a 10th level build.


...


Just saw the bit about books being banned. Could you specify which ones are banned, or what specifically is not allowed?

[hymer]

You can also Wild Shape into a strong, dexterous primate for extra stats to draw your bow with higher strength and more accuracy. Hell, you can even use A Thousand Faces to appear yourself while at it;

Thousand Faces doesn't work while you're not in your normal form, unfortunately.
I think the main reason not to go straight druid, is simply the temptation not to use your bow when there's so much else you could be doing. At least, that would be a problem for me.

[Eldariel]

Thousand Faces doesn't work while you're not in your normal form, unfortunately.
I think the main reason not to go straight druid, is simply the temptation not to use your bow when there's so much else you could be doing. At least, that would be a problem for me.

Ah, right, I forgot that little detail. Well, Hat of Disguise or some such does the same thing; I don't remember if there's a Druidic spell for that. Also, all the Strength-buffs (Bite-line & al.) are nice and with Zen Archery, Owl's Insight (@OP: Level 5 spell in Spell Compendium) actually becomes a brilliant spell for Archer Druid (not that it wasn't already). So there's plenty of good magic to help along with shooting your bow.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'd probably recommend going straight druid 20, using the swift and deadly hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) druid variant. That trades your wild shape and armor/shield proficiency for a monk's bonus to AC, fast movement, Track and favored enemies as a ranger.

Take Zen Archery so that you can focus on Wisdom (which will power your attack rolls, AC and spellcasting), with a secondary focus on Strength for damage.

Snowsight + Obscuring Snow is, as I mentioned earlier, pretty boss. Without line of sight, enemies will be heavily restricted as far as counter-attacking goes. Remember, without line of sight, enemies can't go after you with charges or ranged attacks, which are two of the most common ways of dealing with archers. You'll have enough spell slots to keep your party buffed up with Snowsight too, so they won't have anything to complain about.

My druid archer build stub includes some ToB material, which seems to be a no-no with your group based on the OP, but really if you do the above, you'll be a strong archer with powerful spells to boot.

[eggynack]

I Except for the part where you use Dragonborn on your Anthropomorphic Bat, since that'll turn it into a Humanoid (Dragonblood).
I'm not sure if you're correct about that. It says that you become a humanoid (dragonblood) under the type line, certainly, but under the mechanics of rebirth, it says, " You retain your original type and subtypes." I don't think you can have more than one type, at least unless the game explicitly says that you can, so you must logically remain a monstrous humanoid. It's all rather ambiguous and contradictory, to the point where it might be worth staying away from the interaction anyway, at least as it applies to fangshields. Jermalaine (MM II, 131) also make for a reasonable non-humanoid druid race, though it's somewhat worse than anthro bat.

[WhamBamSam]

I'm not sure if you're correct about that. It says that you become a humanoid (dragonblood) under the type line, certainly, but under the mechanics of rebirth, it says, " You retain your original type and subtypes." I don't think you can have more than one type, at least unless the game explicitly says that you can, so you must logically remain a monstrous humanoid. It's all rather ambiguous and contradictory, to the point where it might be worth staying away from the interaction anyway, at least as it applies to fangshields. Jermalaine (MM II, 131) also make for a reasonable non-humanoid druid race, though it's much worse than anthro bat.Huh, you're right. Yeah... RotD is a pretty silly book in general, but it's to the point where I find it sort of endearing. Mostly because I actually really like most Dragon/Dragonwrought Kobold cheese.

Can you point to where Jermalaines get a LA of 0? They are listed as a monster after all, not a race or template, which would probably mean LA --, but MMII level adjusments are a pain, and a lot of them have to be dug out of other places beyond the book itself, so it wouldn't surprise me if there were something making them a LA+0 race somewhere.

[eggynack]

Can you point to where Jermalaines get a LA of 0? They are listed as a monster after all, not a race or template, which would probably mean LA --, but MMII level adjusments are a pain, and a lot of them have to be dug out of other places beyond the book itself, so it wouldn't surprise me if there were something making them a LA+0 race somewhere.
They gave them an LA of +0 in the MM II update booklet, which is hereabouts (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a).

[WhamBamSam]

Neat, thanks. That's handy indeed.

But it seems I'm about to repay a good turn with a bad one. Along with the various LAs and things, the document says that Desmodu Hunting Bats get blindsight replaced by blindsense.

[eggynack]

But it seems I'm about to repay a good turn with a bad one. Along with the various LAs and things, the document says that Desmodu Hunting Bats get blindsight replaced by blindsense.
Indeed so. Still pretty good, and one of the better vision modes a druid can access in the long term, but it is a sad thing.

Edit: Realistically, it might actually mean about the same thing. Sure, druids have a few really good targeted spells, but most of the list is AoE. Might be problematic for this archery thing though.

[Shadowdagger213]

And, as the only thing in all of these suggestions that I actually have access to is Zen Archery.... Here is a list of the Books I have access to...

PHB
PHB2
DMG1
MM1
All "Completes" (except "Champion)
Paragon levels are allowed, but very very little else from UA

This is all I have permission to work with...

So while I have read every single response posted since I went to bed this morning @ 9am (work), I don't have access to most of them.


So far what I'm toying with is HP3/D1/Fighter 6.

F4 gives me Weapon Specialization, which opens up Ranged Weapon Mastery which would give me no less than 1d8+10+1d6(+1d10 on crit). for a druid that's pretty respectable, considering I also crafted the bow that shot that arrow.

More Druid would be... well, more DRUID, but take away from the archer FLAVOR that I want. Remember this isn't power gaming, but unless there's a way to keep that archery damage within that level and still be able to "be a Druid"...

<----- is open to suggestions.

[nedz]

One of the troubles with Fighter is that he gets no skills and precious few skill points, which is bad for RP as well as power. If you want to be some guy who travels alone then it is hard to model that with this class. Ranger or Scout is better than this.

You could consider using Rogue instead ?
Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) gets you more outdoors type skills.
If it's feats you want, then take the Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) ACF too; this gives you Fighter feats instead of Sneak dice.
Doing this will trade a couple of points of BAB for many more skills, which may help.

I would say take more Druid levels too, but that is up to you.

Also OBI is a trap.

[Shadowdagger213]

F4/Druid 6 with Practiced Spellcaster....

Elegant in it's simplicity, all 10 HD of spellcasting, somewhere along the way I can pick up the rest of my Casting Levels (Ruathar or something) and I get all my spellcasting for crafting my stuff. I can fit Able Learner in there somewhere for my cross class skills if needed and BOOM, we're all good.

Good thing I remembered that Druids are only restricted to their ARMOR, not the weapons, so Fighter is a good dip here. Archery is going to be primary here, so, at level 10, Wild Shape isn't very important at this time, but it does give me access to the ability for any crafting project that requires it for the enchantment (i.e. Beastskin Armor).

Don't know why it took me so long to see this.

Practiced Spellcaster, Weapon Specialization, Dragoncrafter, (Forgot to mention I have access to the Dragonomicon too), and most of the craft feats, CMA&A, CWI and especially Brew Potion. Make a Composite bow @ +5 STR (or Better) and just drink a Bull's STR potion. Should be ok......

???

[eggynack]

More Druid would be... well, more DRUID, but take away from the archer FLAVOR that I want. Remember this isn't power gaming, but unless there's a way to keep that archery damage within that level and still be able to "be a Druid"...
I actually don't understand this at all. You're trying to wield some mighty archer flavor powers, but you're palling about with a pile of generic fighter levels, and only marginally less generic human paragon levels (and those aren't not-generic in a pro-archery way). Seems counterproductive compared to just going ranger. Anyway, with those restrictions, maybe go some variety of elf for free longbow proficiency, and pick up a free incidental dip into seeker of the misty isle (CD, 61) for travel domain purposes. Could be neat.

[Shadowdagger213]

One of the troubles with Fighter is that he gets no skills and precious few skill points, which is bad for RP as well as power. If you want to be some guy who travels alone then it is hard to model that with this class. Ranger or Scout is better than this.

You could consider using Rogue instead ?
Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) gets you more outdoors type skills.
If it's feats you want, then take the Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) ACF too; this gives you Fighter feats instead of Sneak dice.
Doing this will trade a couple of points of BAB for many more skills, which may help.

I would say take more Druid levels too, but that is up to you.

Also OBI is a trap.




But I like OBI.... again, flavor not power.... just set up the battle field first and then 1 shot per round doesn't sound that bad, especially if the bad guys can't get to you .... :smallbiggrin:

[Shadowdagger213]

BTW, how do you create those "Spoilers" buttons? I want to upload a pic, to try and give a visual of what I'm trying to achieve.

[Shadowdagger213]

I actually don't understand this at all. You're trying to wield some mighty archer flavor powers, but you're palling about with a pile of generic fighter levels, and only marginally less generic human paragon levels (and those aren't not-generic in a pro-archery way). Seems counterproductive compared to just going ranger. Anyway, with those restrictions, maybe go some variety of elf for free longbow proficiency, and pick up a free incidental dip into seeker of the misty isle (CD, 61) for travel domain purposes. Could be neat.

This build is for CRAFTING mostly, the Archery seems to fit the nature of the build, and since Rangers have no spellcasting to speak of when in comes to enchanting weapons and the like, Druid has more options. And if he survives these first few encounters..... more Druid!

[eggynack]

BTW, how do you create those "Spoilers" buttons? I want to upload a pic, to try and give a visual of what I'm trying to achieve.
There's a button for it on the right of the toolbar with the word "spoil" on it, and a second one to the left of that with question marks. The former gets youstandard spoilers while the latter gets you spoilers with a fancy message Alternatively, you could quote someone's post, and that'll reveal all the code that person is using, and you can copy it.

Edit:
This build is for CRAFTING mostly, the Archery seems to fit the nature of the build, and since Rangers have no spellcasting to speak of when in comes to enchanting weapons and the like, Druid has more options. And if he survives these first few encounters..... more Druid!
But if you're doing mostly crafting, then that makes fighter fit your build even less. It feels like you're going out of your way to make a druid crafter fit into this odd archery box for some reason, when you could possibly achieve both goals with greater efficiency by being more of a druid, without sacrificing any archery flavor, because fighters didn't have all that much flavor to begin with.

[thethird]

using [*spoiler] [*/spoiler] no asterisks (*).

If you want ranged weapon mastery consider pious templar, which is far better than fighter. Fighter is terrible, really.

[Shadowdagger213]

Hope this works, but this is what I'm building this character around...

http://diablo.incgamers.com/gallery/showfull.php?photo=5307

[thethird]

Mh?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KMoR37NyxPU/T_PeCMu_w0I/AAAAAAAABVE/iIGElDColMI/s1600/Ranger_LIT_small.jpg

So you just want to dress in green and carry a bow? :smallconfused:

[Shadowdagger213]

I wan't you to NOT see a Druid when he steps up to fight...

Fire an arrow, cleave you with a great sword, summon an Elemental and walk away.... ominously.... LOL

[infomatic]

I honestly don't get the crafting bit at all either. Drink a potion of bull's strength? That's for normals.

You're a Druid10. You can cast Bull's Strength, except you stopped doing that five levels ago because you started casting "Bite of the …" spells. (I know Spell Comp. isn't on your list, but the fact is that casters don't have to worry about that stuff.)

Craft weapons if you like, but the SwiftHunter Druid 10 gets you want you want (or, if you really can't stand the simplicity, Druid7/PiousTemplar3, or Druid8/PrestigeRanger2).

[thethird]

That's a rather unclear character concept... what exactly do you want your character to be:
-Fighting in the wilderness, primarily using a bow.
-Have druid levels, but not too many.

You are also exclusively limited to the sources listed, and prestige ranger/druid acfs are not an option?

If druid ACFs - prestige ranger where an option I would suggest Scout 3 / Swift Hunter Druid 3 / Prestige Ranger X (where X is as much as you can, taking the swift hunter feat)

Also why not ranger? Ranger spells are rather good for archery and rangery-stuff which seems what you want in the first place.

Alternatively why not cleric? Cleric 1 is a better dip than druid 1 (even without complete champion).

Seriously a Ranger 4 / Scout 6 or a Scout 6 / Ranger 4 is better than what you have at the moment.

[Shadowdagger213]

I honestly don't get the crafting bit at all either. Drink a potion of bull's strength? That's for normals.

You're a Druid10. You can cast Bull's Strength, except you stopped doing that five levels ago because you started casting "Bite of the …" spells. (I know Spell Comp. isn't on your list, but the fact is that casters don't have to worry about that stuff.)

Craft weapons if you like, but the SwiftHunter Druid 10 gets you want you want (or, if you really can't stand the simplicity, Druid7/PiousTemplar3, or Druid8/PrestigeRanger2).

Ok....PRESTIGE RANGER... never read it, may be able to work with that....

[infomatic]

The aversion to ranger seems to be because of the lack of casting ability, but …

a) He doesn't want that much casting, either, and
b) Ranger spells for archery aren't that bad

What about a Wisdom-focused Monk1/Ranger/Scout? (Monk's Belt and Ranger/Scout would be better, but I'm thinking limited budget). Druid's still better, I think.

[Shadowdagger213]

ok, I do have a "copy" of Unearthed arcana and the SRD was just approved so I'm actually liking the prestige ranger a little bit.... because mainly I get to keep and progress my druid spells (Mostly)....

Going to work, but gonna work on this a bit

[eggynack]

Alternatively why not cleric? Cleric 1 is a better dip than druid 1 (even without complete champion).
I agree with that. Clerics work better with archery than druids do, at least when you lack broad book access. I'd just go full cleric though. I don't see what it is about a full caster that won't work perfectly here, even in flavor terms. It's not like a cleric can't fire an arrow, cleave you with a sword, summon an elemental, and walk away. You might need to make some specific build choices, like elf as race, or war domain, to get the proficiencies efficiently, but that's not the biggest issue. Seriously, flavor is mutable.

[Ziegander]

Is there a way to get Turn Undead on a Druid base without dipping? Because if we could do Swift Hunter Druid + Turn Undead + Prestige Ranger we'd have a pretty sweet archer there, I'd say.

[eggynack]

Is there a way to get Turn Undead on a Druid base without dipping? Because if we could do Swift Hunter Druid + Turn Undead + Prestige Ranger we'd have a pretty sweet archer there, I'd say.
I think the only non-dip way is through a bone talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a). I like the dip way though, which is something like holt warden for knowledge (religon), contemplative for the balance or elysium domain, and sacred exorcist for turn undead. Lotta work for not that much gain though, especially compared to just stopping at contemplative for the spell domain or something, and there needs to be a different source for the knowledge here, cause holt warden is complete champion.

Edit: Also, I don't think persisting is quite as good on a druid as it is on a cleric, even if you can mitigate. Lots of your best buffs are long term enough already.

[Ziegander]

I think the only non-dip way is through a bone talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a). I like the dip way though, which is something like holt warden for knowledge (religon), contemplative for the balance or elysium domain, and sacred exorcist for turn undead. Lotta work for not that much gain though, especially compared to just stopping at contemplative for the spell domain or something, and there needs to be a different source for the knowledge here, cause holt warden is complete champion.

Edit: Also, I don't think persisting is quite as good on a druid as it is on a cleric, even if you can mitigate. Lots of your best buffs are long term enough already.

Oh, well, a PrC dip is fine. And, yes, a Cleric is possibly better, but Druids/Rangers have plenty of persistable spells to combo together to make a unique and effective archer (still far more effective than a Fighter Archer would be).

[Shadowdagger213]

So I'm here at work, working on a Druid 6/Prestige Ranger.

Minimally qualified for it with room for just CMA&A...I really wanted Brew Potion as well....

So far this is looking kind promising....8/10 caster levels, my last try was like 4/10. This is closer to the balance I was looking for...

+2 bonuses to my bow and armor, going with Leafweave, Ranger ha to stay with light armor, and Leafweave requires....


ALCHEMY! (Be back in the morning!)

[Shadowdagger213]

I love crafting.... :smallbiggrin:

+2 Mighty (+4) Elvencraft Shockburst, Flameburst, Icy Burst Composite Longbow.... 16,550gp LEGIT! :smallcool:

1d8 + 5 + 3d6 Ice, Shock and Fire (up to 30ft, -1 point further than that)

Critical hit: 3d8 + 15 (or 12) + 3d6 + 6d10

...and 4th Level Prestige Ranger gives me Manyshot.....:haley:

The Complete Adventurer awaits for the Alchemical goodies.....

I love crafting.... :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

+2 Mighty (+4) Elvencraft Shockburst, Flameburst, Icy Burst Composite Longbow.... 16,550gp LEGIT! :smallcool:
How did you arrive at this pricing? I'm not sure what mighty is, but a +2 shocking burst, flaming burst, icy burst weapon alone is priced as a +8 weapon, which means a base price of 128,000 GP, and a crafting price of 64,000 GP. If you're indicating that mighty is a +4 enhancement, then that pushes you into +12, which might mean epic rules, and a price of 2,880,000 GP. I think you may be taking the cost of enhancements individually, where in actual fact you add the enhancements together and check the market value of that total.

[infomatic]

I love crafting.... :smallbiggrin:

+2 Mighty (+4) Elvencraft Shockburst, Flameburst, Icy Burst Composite Longbow.... 16,550gp LEGIT! :smallcool:


First, that's a +8 weapon (mighty and elvencraft are mundane enhancements) so I think your crafting math is WAY off.

But regardless, don't do that. There are much better enhancements available than stacking all those elemental ones, which are going to be resisted frequently. Read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0) and this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0).

From your sources, +1 Seeking Holy (+4 total, 32K or 16K crafting) would be a better start for magical enhancements.

[infomatic]

...and 4th Level Prestige Ranger gives me Manyshot.....:haley:


Prestige Ranger gives manyshot at 2nd, not 4th. That's why Druid8/P.Ranger2 is better, b/c you get 5th level spells.

[Shadowdagger213]

Okay,

Pricing for that bow is correct, because the charts they give for the pricing is for market value not crafting. It's for calculating treasure, the reason they give you the individual pricing for each enchantment is for crafting.

If you look at the chart, each elemental adds the +2 bonus as you add it, so it's 8000 for the +2, another 8000 for the shockburst, another for the ice and another for the flame. Then 100 for the bow, 300 for the masterwork part, another 300 for the elvencraft (melee or ranged in same round, no AoO for those that don't know) then another 400 for the Mighty (Adds up to +4 of your Strength, each +1 costing 100gp, not enchanted, just "tension power"). This adds up to 33,100gp. Divide this by 2 because the "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" feat says that you "spend half this amount in raw materials" so half of that is 16,550gp.

[infomatic]

Okay,

Pricing for that bow is correct, because the charts they give for the pricing is for market value not crafting. It's for calculating treasure, the reason they give you the individual pricing for each enchantment is for crafting.
.

No, you need to read up on crafting more. Those three +2 abilities are additive to the existing +2 enhancement, meaning you've got a +8 weapon that costs half as much to craft as to buy. You're way underpricing your weapon. (And then picking bad enhancements.)

[nedz]

F4/Druid 6 with Practised Spellcaster....

Elegant in it's simplicity, all 10 HD of spellcasting, somewhere along the way
Practised Spellcaster only increases your caster level, it doesn't give you spellcasting. You would have level 3 spells only, though your caster level would be 10.

But I like OBI.... again, flavor not power.... just set up the battle field first and then 1 shot per round doesn't sound that bad, especially if the bad guys can't get to you .... :smallbiggrin:
I had a Ranger / OBI Cohort once. I gave up using the Precise shot because Rapid Shot is so much better. It didn't help that the guy we kept meeting had Snatch Arrows. OBI doesn't even give you the right skills for your character. Can you explain why it needs Rapid shot as a Pre-Req ? Straight Ranger is a better Archer, has better skills and hasn't wasted feat slots on things it doesn't use.

[Shadowdagger213]

Don't know why Prestige Ranger Requires Rapid shot for the class, it just does... but it gives you manyshot as the 1st combat style upgrade....

And yes I will read the crafting part again, geez....


(I thought this was a game.... you know, fun?)

[infomatic]

And yes I will read the crafting part again, geez....


(I thought this was a game.... you know, fun?)

It is a game. There are rules to games. You can ignore them if you want to, but don't get upset if people point them out.

[zindane2000]

(I thought this was a game.... you know, fun?)

I'm having fun:smallcool:

[Shadowdagger213]

I was looking for advice, not a brow beating for making a mistake.....

[Ramza00]

It may be not what you are looking for but the duergar race from the srd is a nice dwarf race. It is a 1 la race but the get invisibility and enlarge person both once a day. The nice thing about them is the are strong crafters since they can use their spell like ability caster level for crafting, and the caster level is equal to double their class levels, thus an ecl 10 duergar has 9 class levels and a cl of 18 for crafting.

[eggynack]

I was looking for advice, not a brow beating for making a mistake.....
It wasn't that much brow beating. It was mostly just, "You are doing this thing incorrectly, and also suboptimally." Y'know, standard build optimization stuff. It's just about impossible to do D&D optimization stuff without making at least some mistakes, even when you get good at it. The trick is keeping your mind dynamic enough that you can recognize it when someone else is correct and you are not, and then possibly tossing out a comment to that effect.

Edit: The second trick is being able to recognize when you are right and the other person is wrong, and providing quotes from the text that prove it, preferably with a fancy in-text citation to make things easier on your reader. There's rarely a time when, "I would not say such things if I were you," is the appropriate response.

[geekintheground]

i think youre making too big a distinction between flavor and power. why cant you have both? and im not really sure why youre going with druid, when it sounds like you wont really be using the spells or wildshape all that much, in which case ranger is a PERFECT fit.
remember, classes are a metagame construct, people in game dont identify you as your class, but rather by what you do. eg people would look at a ranged fighter, a ranger and an archery cleric and say "oh look, 3 archers" not "oh look, a fighter, ranger and cleric". so basically your character is whatever you want it to be (note: you may play differently, this just seems to be what the game assumes and is how *I'VE* played. YMMV)

[Shadowdagger213]

...What I am mostly concerned with here is CRAFTING. This is a 10th level build and I only have 49,000gp to work with, and traveling alone. The low level Druid spells up to level 3 are better than the Ranger gets his whole career....

...Remember this is not about the power gaming, it's a lot of roleplay and mostly for the flavor of an Archer, connected with Nature, eventually going to get much better with the magic, but this is where he is now.

Thoughts? (Not "You're Screwed", or "Just play a Wizard" or anything like that)



Quoting from myself....this thread went the exact way I didn't want it to. I'm over the whole "I did the bow wrong" thing.(Admitting this part...) But you can't berate someone for not doing it the way you would, (if you are one of those "optimisers") I'm looking to have fun. The ones that are tearing apart my build are the ones that didn't even read the opening post.


If you don't feel that you did anything wrong, you probably didn't and this part isn't directed towards you.

If you are already typing and trying to come up with a snappy comeback because YOU didn't even read to look at what I was trying to achieve here.... maybe I'm not the only one that needs to learn how to read...*(Rant done.... :smallyuk:)

[eggynack]

Optimization and flavor stuff often look a lot alike. The best way to create a character that's good at crafting magic items and shooting stuff with a bow is to optimize your character to craft magic items and shoot stuff with a bow. Trying to avoid optimization in favor of these rather odd flavor goals is counterproductive.

[Shadowdagger213]

Now that that's over with, have switched to a Druid 6/ Prestige ranger 4....

Took 4 levels of the ranger to improve my BAB a bit, but mostly for the second boost to my caster level.

I do have to re-approach my Bow, but other than that, the Ranger restricts the druid from Medium Armor so can only use light. The Druid can't use metal, so the ranger can't use Mithril Chain (Spelling for "mithral" is interchangable). Going with Leafweave Studded Leather, which requires Craft Alchemy, which requires me going nuts on Complete Adventurer Alchemical stuff. Green Arrow here I come.... LOL

[Shadowdagger213]

Optimization and flavor stuff often look a lot alike. The best way to create a character that's good at crafting magic items and shooting stuff with a bow is to optimize your character to craft magic items and shoot stuff with a bow. Trying to avoid optimization in favor of these rather odd flavor goals is counterproductive.

Really...???

You've never made a character that was just there to have fun with the game? Not just to kill everything but to actually have fun?


...next....

[Gnome Alone]

Really...???

You've never made a character that was just there to have fun with the game? Not just to kill everything but to actually have fun?


...next....

How are you getting that from what he said?

Also, just FYI, not the world's biggest deal but it's considered somewhat gauche to post multiple times in a row, I think it uses less server space if you just edit the post you just made.

[thethird]

:smallconfused:

Your objective is to have fun. Fun is personal and subjective. But reducing fun to have fun in D&D games limits the definition of fun. In fact D&D is a game that rewards accomplishing objectives, and that in itself is fun. Alternatively not being able to accomplish what you intend to do is not fun. You can link competence with fun. If you understand competence as something gradual you can believe that there are some things that are barely competent "a sorcerer using a bow" relatively competent "a ranger using a bow" and similarly with the use of optimization you can have greatly competent builds. Summing up, there is a connection between fun, competence and optimization in D&D.

Suggestions that you receive to improve your character are never intending to reduce your fun.

[TuggyNE]

Really...???

You've never made a character that was just there to have fun with the game? Not just to kill everything but to actually have fun?


...next....

I recommend reading Eight Types of Fun (http://angrydm.com/2014/01/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/) before asserting that someone made a character for some other reason than to have fun with the game.

[infomatic]

Took 4 levels of the ranger to improve my BAB a bit, but mostly for the second boost to my caster level.

Druid8/PrestigeRanger2 and Druid6/PrestigeRanger4 have identical BAB: 8

But Druid8/PrestigeRanger2 gets 5th level spells (Druid6/PRgr4 gets 4th level). Fifth-level Druid spells have some doozies, including several that fit well with the Nature-Ninja concept you seem to be after.

Druid8 is the better choice, and doesn't detract at all from the concept. You want an archer? Take archery feats, carry a bow and shoot stuff with it. That's all you need.



I do have to re-approach my Bow, but other than that, the Ranger restricts the druid from Medium Armor so can only use light.


Not so. Prestige Ranger lacks the "light armor" requirement for the base class's Combat Style. Prestige Ranger doesn't get Combat Styles; it gets the bonus feat, period. (This doesn't give you a ton of new options, but I'm not sure what the advantage of Leafweave is, anyway. Only difference seems to be a higher max Dex, and regular Leather is pretty high already).

[Shadowdagger213]

And infomatic for the win!

Best post in 2 days! Thank you, that was actually "help!"

Gonna read the Prestige Ranger one more time, then swap to D8/PrR 2

Time fir workl those awake @ 3am PST might see me


Now about that bow....

[eggynack]

Really...???

You've never made a character that was just there to have fun with the game? Not just to kill everything but to actually have fun?


...next....
I don't think the words you've written here are the same as the words I wrote, though it is worthy of note that I'm fully capable of having fun with high powered characters, and perhaps even have more fun in that manner. Particularly druids, cause druids are cool. I don't always have to be the most powerful character possible, but if I write, "Is really good at hitting things with a sword, but is rather erudite when in social situations," you can be damn sure he's going to be very good at both of those things, because saying that you're able to destroy enemies with your blade and then being unable to back that up is lame.

Basically, don't start with some arbitrary picture of your character and pick classes that kinda look like that character. Instead, decide what it is you want your character to be capable of, and then make him capable of those things. Your character isn't a "ranger", or a "druid", or a "fighter", because those things are just titles, and making your whole character into a single word is pretty much the opposite of role playing. Your character is an archer/crafter, or perhaps some other thing if you want, and it doesn't much matter how you get there.

[Shadowdagger213]

I always find the pic first, cause I can't draw....

Eggynack, if you had posted your last post before any other post I read I would not have lashed out, and for that I apologize.

I love crafting because I hate spending...

I'm looking for a concept that would rarely have to visit "civilization" for anything, so he lives in the woods, makes his own stuff, defends his forests and holds his own. The bow was gravy, he's probably gonna be more summoner than caster but he's not done yet.

I just get tired of the optimizers blasting people because a concept doesn't look like something that they would do, then rip it apart 10 different ways.

[Shadowdagger213]

Prestige Ranger weapon and armor proficiency - "As the standard Ranger..." so I am stuck with light armor too...

Oh well

[Nihilarian]

The druid is proficient in medium armor. That doesn't go away when you take prestige ranger.

Edit: This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) is the best bow you can grab.

[Shadowdagger213]

But the Ranger abilities DO go away if I wear anything heavier than light armor...as the standard Ranger.

[eggynack]

Honestly, apart from a heavy bow focus, I can't see anything in that character that's represented by not-druid. That's doubly true if the bow is just an incidental part of the character. Druids can do pretty much anything in existence, and that's true even when you don't get a perfect flavor match. prestige ranger won't destroy such a build, but you're adding very little at a very high cost. In the absence of fancy bat druid based archery, I'd probably run it as an elf archer with seeker of the misty isle, though you don't get to do that fancy thing where you take a level of holt warden beforehand if you lack complete champion. Still good though.


But the Ranger abilities DO go away if I wear anything heavier than light armor...as the standard Ranger.
I don't see that restriction on the prestige ranger's abilities. The fact that the prestige ranger's proficiencies are set the same as the standard ranger doesn't mean that the other restrictions based on armor carry over.

[infomatic]

Yeah, "armor proficiency" isn't the same thing as "armor limitations".

It's possible they meant to include that rule, but they didn't. Or maybe Prestige Ranger isn't necessarily the same animal as base ranger -- the text says that many entrants are druids, so they know that medium armor is a possibility.

You might want light anyway, though, just for the low ACP.

Note: It's not on your list, but you really want to get the Precise enhancement from MIC. +1 equivalent, gives you Precise Shot feat (and spares you from having to take PBS — I don't see a way of getting both Zen Archery and Craft Amor/weapons if you have to take PBS and Precise).

Swift Hunter variant Druid
Druid Bonus: Track
Human: Rapid Shot (required)
1. Endurance (required)
3. PBS
6. Precise Shot
9. Zen Archery or Craft Arms/Armor

Ranger Bonus: Manyshot

Picking up Precise Shot with an item opens TWO feats, meaning you can take something else like Extend Spell for your buffs.

[Bovine Colonel]

I just get tired of the optimizers blasting people because a concept doesn't look like something that they would do, then rip it apart 10 different ways.

I don't see anyone here doing that. What I do see is them asking for clarification regarding your concept, then offering advice to improve your character within the bounds of that concept.

[TuggyNE]

I love crafting because I hate spending...

Or, in other words, you wish to get the most bang for your buck — "optimizing" your equipment budget, if you will. A perfectly sensible thing to desire.


I don't see anyone here doing that. What I do see is them asking for clarification regarding your concept, then offering advice to improve your character within the bounds of that concept.

You are being far too sensible, and I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave. :smallwink:

[Shadowdagger213]

I have to apologize to everyone for my attitude earlier, I was in a really bad mood earlier, and everyone here made good points.

I've settled on Druid 8/Prestige Ranger 2. My DM is going to rule that a Ranger wearing medium or heavier armor loses his combat style ability, even in the Prestige description doesn't mention it. I'm ok with that.

Going with the Leafweave armor crafting because it calls for Alchemy. Making all elven arrows, because the descriptions for them don't say you have to be an elf to make them. Lots of thundering arrows. Then gonna look at Complete Adventurer at the whole section of alchemical items.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to craft my main Bow (Yes, and I am following the rules saying that a +3 Exploding Shockburst Magebane Bow is in fact a +9 weapon) But man, that sounds cool....

Since the enchantments have to be from spells that I can cast, I'm torn between a !1 Exploding bow, a +2 Shockburst bow, or a +3 magebane bow.

All I know about the campaign so far is that it takes place in a mine, I didn't take Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and there is a Burning Plague of some sort, so I'm guessing undead. Druids and Rangers don't get Knowledge (Religion).

What's a good, versatile combo that a CL9 Druid could enchant with decent damage?

+3 max on the enhancement side, and we play the rule that no one item in your starting budget can be more than 50% of your total starting gold.

THERE is the challenge...

Again, apologies, all the way back to the beginning of the thread..

[Eldariel]

+1 Collision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision) Seeking bow is a +4 total enhancement (+3 worth of abilities) bow with a good damage output and great utility. It would be at 16000gp materials, when crafted. That would be my choice lacking Force enhancement [Magic Item Compendium], and Splitting [Champions of Ruin]. Only enhancement I'd consider over Collision is Holy, for purposes of overcoming DR and being quite broadly applicable vs. most common enemy types. This is primarily important if you expect to deal with Evil Outsiders. Eventually you'll want your bow enhanced with both in any case.


I also recommend you craft some X Bane Arrows (for creature types you expect to encounter; Undead, Aberration, Dragon, Monstrous Humanoid and maybe Humanoid (Human) are good generic categories; Evil Outsiders is not a bad one either). One Arrow is only 1/50th the price of a weapon and +1 Bane arrows (minimum enhancement) are thus 8000/50 = 160gp a pop, or 80gp crafted. You can also add materials and enhancements to arrows, e.g. Silver and Cold Iron Arrows for Devils and Demons respectively (enhanced Cold Iron arrows are a fairly bad idea tho, due to Cold Iron increasing the cost of enhancement). This makes it easier for you to deal with damage reduction, which is quite the bane of archers.

Bane is an extremely efficient enhancement (+2 to hit, +2 + 2d6 to damage vs. what it's built for) and Archer doesn't have to use a Bane Weapon - it's enough to use Bane Arrows, which are much cheaper and thus you can keep a wide collection for enemies you expect to encounter. As such, whenever you run into some particularly tough opponent, just take your choice of black arrows and cram them in its guts. This seems like the perfect option to put your crafting skills to good use.

[Shadowdagger213]

:smallamused:I have never used psionics, so I wouldn't even know how to bluff them into a game, and considering the fact that I taught the game to the DM (My Stepson), probably wouldn't fly.

I'd love to be able to play to his (current) strengths, which at present, with Knowledge Nature being maxed, is going to be animals, giants, fey, vermin and the like (do giant vermin count? I will be in a mine....)

I'm liking the idea of the +3 magebane bow, but without knowledge arcana, my character won't know that he's about to do extra damage until it hits. I could re-fudge the skill points to cross class about 6 points into that skill, but I'd lose out on at least one of my most "woodland" skills. I'm hoping this character survives to continue into more woddsy encounters to fully utilize (optimize LOL) his skillset.

+2 shockburst just hits everything, and +1 exploding would, well, explode, but that one requires "shatter" which is not a Druid spell.

So, I'm looking at Magebane (Dispel Magic), or elemental burst for the most bang, or just a +3 weapon.

[Shadowdagger213]

Man I hate wasting people's time on these threads....

Thank you to everyone who has helped on this busted idea of mine.

Gonna stick with Druid 10 (to 20), and "Optimize" :smallbiggrin: on the Shillelagh spell. Good god this spell looks cool! And Spikes stacks on it??

I can still craft armor, brew potions (because magic can run out in a day...) and craft wondrous items.

Probably gonna open a new thread to chat on this one, but the dilema is what wildshaping core animals can fight with a quarterstaff or a club?

If you see me in the forums, please give your thoughts

[nedz]

It is possible to make a Ray Druid.

Something like :-

Halfling Wilderness Rogue 1 / Halfling Deadly Hunter Druid 5 / Spellwarp Sniper 5
PBS [1], Track {2}, Extend Spell [3], PS [6], Split Ray [9], Deadeye Shot {9}, Dimensional Jaunt[12]

There are other option, e.g. using Ninja instead of Rogue.

Incidentally: the otherwise useless spell Sandblast becomes somewhat broken in this guys hands.

[Shadowdagger213]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328569

New link for new build is here...

Shilelagh Druid - Beastly Beatstick of Nature!

[infomatic]

Probably gonna open a new thread to chat on this one, but the dilema is what wildshaping core animals can fight with a quarterstaff or a club?.

Anything with hands. Baboon's a low-level one, for example.

This concept's way closer to traditional Druid optimizing, so you can just read any of the Druid Handbooks (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=k6dqmgoum3csf6qk52hl7oi6q4&topic=940.0). Note that even for biped shapes you've got your gear to think of (you'll need wilding clasps [MIC] and armor enhancement, or just take off the gear before wildshaping and then put it on again).

[Fitz10019]

I also recommend you craft some X Bane Arrows

Crafting Bane requires Summon Monster I. Is there a way to get this build Summon Monster I besides dipping Cleric/Wiz/Sorc?

[eggynack]

Crafting Bane requires Summon Monster I. Is there a way to get this build Summon Monster I besides dipping Cleric/Wiz/Sorc?
It apparently shows up on the portal and summoner domains, so a dip in contemplative could do it. Alternatively, you could just find any low level cleric or wizard and have them supply the spell.