Roy's armor

[jakon]

Given how detailed the armor has been getting in the comic recently, and how the team is headed towards what appears to be "The Final Battle" and since it's common practice to gear up a ton before heading into said final battle. Could it not be possible that we could see Roy getting new armor? Thoughts anyone?

[Keltest]

Roy's armor appears to be a breast plate of some sort, and based on his fighting style, its likely magical. I wouldn't say its impossible for him to get an upgrade, especially in the dwarven lands, but anything good enough for him to be using at his level is going to be difficult to replace without sacrificing in some area (like dex bonus)

[DeliaP]

Roy's armor appears to be a breast plate of some sort, and based on his fighting style, its likely magical. I wouldn't say its impossible for him to get an upgrade, especially in the dwarven lands, but anything good enough for him to be using at his level is going to be difficult to replace without sacrificing in some area (like dex bonus)

Do we know Roy gets a DEX bonus? Surely he must have at least one non-good stat? He has good STR and CON (because he's a front line fighter and not completely ineffective), INT (enough to put cross-class skill ranks in Knowledge Architecture and Engineering!), WIS (Durkon thinks he has a reasonable will save) and CHA (effective party leader?). If he wears heavy armour maybe he just doesn't need a DEX bonus, so actually has a dump stat?

[Keltest]

Do we know Roy gets a DEX bonus? Surely he must have at least one non-good stat? He has good STR and CON (because he's a front line fighter and not completely ineffective), INT (enough to put cross-class skill ranks in Knowledge Architecture and Engineering!), WIS (Durkon thinks he has a reasonable will save) and CHA (effective party leader?). If he wears heavy armour maybe he just doesn't need a DEX bonus, so actually has a dump stat?

I personally would not call Roy particularly charismatic. Hes certainly not repulsive, but it has not been my impression that the order follows him because hes inspiring or anything like that. Otherwise Elan would be the leader (*shudder*)! And while he may or may not have a dex bonus, he certainly would try to avoid a dex penalty, because that can directly hurt him in combat.

I think he simply just has all around good stat rolls. Without knowing how the Giant would determine that (flat total to distribute, roll for each stat in order or what), we cant really say for sure.

[Blisstake]

Heavy armor doesn't give a dex penalty. It only caps the dex bonus you can get, and gives an armor check penalty which affects a few skills. If you don't have a dex bonus, then heavy armor doesn't give a penalty (well, except reduced speed, but that's not usually a huge deal).

[TroubleBrewing]

I think he simply just has all around good stat rolls. Without knowing how the Giant would determine that (flat total to distribute, roll for each stat in order or what), we cant really say for sure.

I actually have a theory that this is why in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) the Mind Flayer chooses Roy over V. Though V's 18 Int is attractive, Roy's likely overall better mental stats form the basis of any cephalophagic critter's well-balanced breakfast!

[Keltest]

Heavy armor doesn't give a dex penalty. It only caps the dex bonus you can get, and gives an armor check penalty which affects a few skills. If you don't have a dex bonus, then heavy armor doesn't give a penalty (well, except reduced speed, but that's not usually a huge deal).

I was talking about if Dex was his dump stat. That would be something he would try to avoid if possible.


I actually have a theory that this is why in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) the Mind Flayer chooses Roy over V. Though V's 18 Int is attractive, Roy's likely overall better mental stats form the basis of any cephalophagic critter's well-balanced breakfast!

I want to say that the Giant has confirmed that, but even if he hasn't that's the popular opinion

[veti]

I personally would not call Roy particularly charismatic. Hes certainly not repulsive, but it has not been my impression that the order follows him because hes inspiring or anything like that.

He's forceful and persuasive enough to keep the team together all this time. And he's plenty assertive in the face of people like Miko and, of course, Elan, who we know have high(ish) CHA. He even manages to be the party 'face' most of the time, despite having both Elan and Haley on the team.

I think the evidence suggests he's got a decent CHA - enough for at least a +1 modifier.

[zql]

He seems to have Improved Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedGrapple) (at least acording to the Class and Level thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16322216&postcount=3)), so he must have Dex 13 or greater.

[zimmerwald1915]

He's forceful and persuasive enough to keep the team together all this time. And he's plenty assertive in the face of people like Miko and, of course, Elan, who we know have high(ish) CHA. He even manages to be the party 'face' most of the time, despite having both Elan and Haley on the team.

I think the evidence suggests he's got a decent CHA - enough for at least a +1 modifier.
Said evidence includes word of Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211493#post211493). Old word of Giant, to be sure, but word nonetheless. The Giant also puts the same judgment, word for word, in the mouth of the bureaucratic deva (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html).

As for Roy's armor, it lit up under arcane sight just like Girard's booby trap did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html). It's magical.

[CletusMusashi]

The moment that convinced me he had good dexterity was when he was able to hit multiple small targets with one throw of a broken greatsword.
Not that this precludes getting a change of armor. Probably something green.
ETA: Hey, it just hit me! Roy will end up getting an upgrade to very powerful armor that just happens to be female. Xykon and Redcloak will be defeated because they are unable to cast spells effectively while pointing, laughing, and yelling "Roy has boobies!" This will also be the moment that Belkar dies, of laughter.

[factotum]

Where would he get said armour from? The only opportunity to visit a shop would have been just now while Haley was talking to Ian--the Mechane is on its way to the North Pole now.

[Tass]

Where would he get said armour from? The only opportunity to visit a shop would have been just now while Haley was talking to Ian--the Mechane is on its way to the North Pole now.

Dwarven lands.

[DaggerPen]

I actually have a theory that this is why in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) the Mind Flayer chooses Roy over V. Though V's 18 Int is attractive, Roy's likely overall better mental stats form the basis of any cephalophagic critter's well-balanced breakfast!

Sorry, I just realized that mind flayers are cephalophagic cephalapods.

Anyway, given that basically the entire Order but Belkar has gotten an appearance change since the comic's beginning, it's reasonable that Roy may not be far behind. I just hope that he'll keep the blue theme.

[DeliaP]

As for Roy's armor, it lit up under arcane sight just like Girard's booby trap did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html). It's magical.

Nice spot! (Mind you, it would strain credibility that a single class fighter wouldn't have decent magic armour by Roy's level....)

[Kish]

Why would Roy replace his armor?

("It's common practice to gear up a ton before heading into the final battle"...What? Roy said to head for the North Pole, not for the nearest magic item store.)

[CletusMusashi]

Maybe Santa will suddenly pop up and start giving people stuff?
I mean, it'll still make more sense than it did in Narnia...

[Tiiba]

Sorry, I just realized that mind flayers are cephalophagic cephalapods.

No, that would mean they walk on their face tentacles. They walk on legs.

[LBarimen]

Maybe Santa will suddenly pop up and start giving people stuff?
I mean, it'll still make more sense than it did in Narnia...

Not to derail the thread on the comic, but Father Christmas showing when he did made perfect sense. The White Witch's spell was causing Narnia to experience "always winter, but never Christmas." The arrival of Father Christmas is a sign that Aslan is moving again in Narnia and that the Witch's spell over Narnia is being broken.

[King of Nowhere]

roy has likely improved his armor a number of times. he may have started the campaign in the dungeon of dorukan with a +1 armor, and maybe now he has a +3 one. Same with most other items. I assume they do many things while they are offpanel, like shopping for gear. And I also assume that after fights, when they get the chance to loot a defeated oppoenent, they find some items.
So, while all the team is getting small upgrades, they aren't mentioned, except for the major ones like roy's sword or haley's bow.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Where would he get said armour from? The only opportunity to visit a shop would have been just now while Haley was talking to Ian--the Mechane is on its way to the North Pole now.
What about taking Tarquins? After the Order finally beat down him and the rest of the puppet rulers group, in their inevitable reappearance of course?

With the glamer that Tarquin activated to appear to be Thog, Roy wouldn't even have to change colours.

[veti]

Not to derail the thread on the comic, but Father Christmas showing when he did made perfect sense. The White Witch's spell was causing Narnia to experience "always winter, but never Christmas." The arrival of Father Christmas is a sign that Aslan is moving again in Narnia and that the Witch's spell over Narnia is being broken.

Huh. Imperialist borealocentric authors, assuming "Christmas" must come in winter in an alien world with its own climate and, for that matter, calendar...

[zimmerwald1915]

Huh. Imperialist borealocentric authors, assuming "Christmas" must come in winter in an alien world with its own climate and, for that matter, calendar...
And its own Christ-figure...

[Blisstake]

He seems to have Improved Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedGrapple) (at least acording to the Class and Level thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16322216&postcount=3)), so he must have Dex 13 or greater.

Meh. The Giant takes liberties with how combat works in the comic strip. Just because he grabbed someone doesn't mean he consciously gave Roy Improved Grapple (which is why I think that thread is incredibly pointless).

Then again, the Giant probably doesn't even care what Roy's dex is, since it's not really at all relevant.

[Keltest]

Meh. The Giant takes liberties with how combat works in the comic strip. Just because he grabbed someone doesn't mean he consciously gave Roy Improved Grapple (which is why I think that thread is incredibly pointless).

Then again, the Giant probably doesn't even care what Roy's dex is, since it's not really at all relevant.

I believe the Giant has said that he does NOT have character sheets sitting around that he bases their abilities off of. So yeah, I doubt he cares that specifically.

[Hytheter]

Is it really so unbelievable that Roy may have just gotten really lucky with his char-gen rolls? Or maybe he got well rounded but un-spectacular stats, say 13-14 in everything (as opposed to a couple of high stats, like 15-18, and a few dump stats). That could include STR by the way - sure he'd have invested his 4-level ability boosts and magic items into it by now, but for all we know it was only sort of decent to begin with.

[Dr. Gamera]

Huh. Imperialist borealocentric authors, assuming "Christmas" must come in winter in an alien world with its own climate and, for that matter, calendar...

In the live-action movie version, the scriptwriters carefully avoid having anyone refer to Father Christmas by name, so that children from the USA who haven't read the book can remain under the illusion that he is Santa Claus. In the animated movie version, he does not appear.

[DeliaP]

And its own Christ-figure...

Actually it really is meant to be one and the same figure. (Apart from the obvious analogies, Aslan states at the end of The Voyage of the Dawn Treader that the Pevensey children know him in their own world, but by a different name).

[Seward]

I was talking about if Dex was his dump stat. That would be something he would try to avoid if possible.

Roy has improved grapple, which has minimum dex of 13.

That said, fullplate and dex 13 is a perfectly good combination. A breastplate doesn't really provide any advantages for mobility over fullplate unless it is mithril (which it may well be, given that Roy always grabs Durkon when they need to run, implying light armor movement speeds).

If Roy has a mithril breastplate, he's not using most of its dex bonus. While Roy almost certainly has a positive dex bonus, dex higher than 14 is unlikely, given how many other high attributes he has.

Roy strikes me as somebody who used die rolling rather than point buy and got a lot of middling attributes and no weaknesses.

[Kish]

Roy has improved grapple
Citation needed.

(And not the Class and Level Geekery thread.)

[Rakoa]

Citation needed.

(And not the Class and Level Geekery thread.)

Oh, come on now, the thread is basically canon. :smallwink:

[Kish]

In the sense that cheese is made by forging it, basically, perhaps.

Regardless, more support for Roy having Improved Grapple is needed than "the Class and Level Geekery thread sez so."

[Vinyadan]

I always thought that Roy's armour reacted to V's spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html) because it's magical.

[zimmerwald1915]

I always thought that Roy's armour reacted to V's spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html) because it's magical.
It wouldn't react if it wasn't magical.

[Imgran]

I'm not convinced that's more than a visual effect. The ray from v's spell encompasses nothing but the armor and girard's spell, so we have no real basis to answer that question definitively (like a non-magical item not similarly affected)

[Vinyadan]

I'm not convinced that's more than a visual effect. The ray from v's spell encompasses nothing but the armor and girard's spell, so we have no real basis to answer that question definitively (like a non-magical item not similarly affected)

It also encompasses the sword, which reacts (does starmetal make things magical?).

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm not convinced that's more than a visual effect. The ray from v's spell encompasses nothing but the armor and girard's spell, so we have no real basis to answer that question definitively (like a non-magical item not similarly affected)
How about Roy's head in the second panel? Or Roy's boot in the fourth panel? Meanwhile, Roy's sword in in the fourth panel and belt in the third panel, which we know are both magical, do light up. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html) Well, the belt's internal coloration, unlike the armor's and the sword's, doesn't change other than being affected by the overlay, but its outline changes from black to pink in the same way the outline of Roy's armor does. Meanwhile, again, the outlines of Roy's head and boot don't change color under arcane sight.

[Kish]

It also encompasses the sword, which reacts (does starmetal make things magical?).
While the precise effects of starmetal in Rich's setting are not completely defined, I feel confident in saying Roy's +5 greatsword is not a nonmagical greatsword.

[Keltest]

In the sense that cheese is made by forging it, basically, perhaps.

Regardless, more support for Roy having Improved Grapple is needed than "the Class and Level Geekery thread sez so."

No offense Kish, but it seems like youre being intentionally stubborn on this matter for no other reason than to make people do more work. Its not like that thread arbitrarily assigns things to characters for no other reason than 'it feels right". Asking people to basically copy-paste the logic and fact gathering process of other people simply because its not in front of you is quite rude, especially without any sort of argument supporting that they might be wrong.

its not that asking for validation of a statement is wrong, but youre dismissing it out of hand for no given reason. If you don't trust their methods to be accurate, at least say so.

[zimmerwald1915]

No offense Kish, but it seems like youre being intentionally stubborn on this matter for no other reason than to make people do more work. Its not like that thread arbitrarily assigns things to characters for no other reason than 'it feels right". Asking people to basically copy-paste the logic and fact gathering process of other people simply because its not in front of you is quite rude, especially without any sort of argument supporting that they might be wrong.
While I agree with the general point, on the specific question of the "Improved <combat maneuver>" feats that thread has flip-flopped in an arbitrary manner about whether lack of attacks of opportunity against a character making the combat maneuver are good evidence for that character having the feat. The reversal turned, if I remember correctly, on a reinterpretation of a preexisting (i.e., not newly posted at the time) Giant quote.

[Keltest]

While I agree with the general point, on the specific question of the "Improved <combat maneuver>" feats that thread has flip-flopped in an arbitrary manner about whether lack of attacks of opportunity against a character making the combat maneuver are good evidence for that character having the feat. The reversal turned, if I remember correctly, on a reinterpretation of a preexisting Giant quote.

Yeah, it occurred to me that my point kind of got away from me a little. I edited my post to be a bit more clear about what I was thinking. It doesn't bug me that hes discounting it as a valid source, it bugs me that he gives no reason why.

[JustWantedToSay]

its not that asking for validation of a statement is wrong, but youre dismissing it out of hand for no given reason. If you don't trust their methods to be accurate, at least say so.

The class and level geekery thread makes the assumption that Attacks of Opportunity are Mandatory. (Probably based on this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html) ) See the thread's FAQ.

Improved grappled for some instances (don't know if Roy is one) was included only because of that assumption.

Attack of Opportunities are optional in D&D. So therefore the thread is not a suitable cite.

[Kish]

its not that asking for validation of a statement is wrong, but youre dismissing it out of hand for no given reason.

Yes, I am dismissing "someone else on the board said so" out of hand. For a reason that should not have to be given.

If you don't trust their methods to be accurate, at least say so.
Why don't you try asking me "Do you trust the Class and Level Geekery thread's methods to be accurate?" before assuming I do and lecturing me on manners on the assumption that I'm being randomly perverse?

Looking at the thread, I see...the thread-curator apparently assumed Roy couldn't throw Enor without Improved Grapple. (Edited: Or that one or more of the not-holding-a-weapon people in the scene should have gotten an attack of opportunity against Roy when he did. :smallconfused:) I do not in the least understand why anyone would defend that as a logic chain. There is no good reason I am aware of to presume Roy has a Dexterity of 13 or better. Could this pointless go-around have been avoided had I just treated the Class and Level Geekery thread as "basically canon"? Sure, if you don't care about accuracy. Could it have been avoided more easily if no one had repeated a claim from it as though it was authoritative? Yes. Whether or not "Roy threw Gannji" is evidence for Improved Grapple or not, "The Class and Level Geekery thread says so" is definitely not.

[zimmerwald1915]

Looking at the thread, I see...the thread-curator apparently assumed Roy couldn't throw Gannji without Improved Grapple. I do not in the least understand why anyone would defend that as a logic chain.
Come now, you can fill in the gaps well enough. The logic chain goes:

1. Assume [for whatever reason] that characters take all the attacks of opportunity to which they are entitled.

2. Assume that actions not shown on panel are not taken.

3. In order to throw a character, a character must first grapple them.

4. If Roy did not have Improved Grapple, Gannji would have been entitled - either by virtue of being armed or by virtue of having natural attacks - to make an attack of opportunity against Roy when Roy tried to grapple him.

5. Gannji was not shown to make an attack against Roy in between Roy starting to try to grab Gannji and successfully grabbing Gannji.

6. Given the above, Roy must have Improved Grapple and its various prerequisites.

Raise all the objections to the assumptions you like. They're probably good and valid given how the assumptions developed. But the steps from the initial assumptions and the initial evidence to the conclusion are clear.

[Keltest]

Yes, I am dismissing "someone else on the board said so" out of hand. For a reason that should not have to be given.

Why don't you try asking me "Do you trust the Class and Level Geekery thread's methods to be accurate?" before assuming I do and lecturing me on manners on the assumption that I'm being randomly perverse?

Looking at the thread, I see...the thread-curator apparently assumed Roy couldn't throw Enor without Improved Grapple. (Edited: Or that one or more of the not-holding-a-weapon people in the scene should have gotten an attack of opportunity against Roy when he did. :smallconfused:) I do not in the least understand why anyone would defend that as a logic chain. There is no good reason I am aware of to presume Roy has a Dexterity of 13 or better. Could this pointless go-around have been avoided had I just treated the Class and Level Geekery thread as "basically canon"? Sure, if you don't care about accuracy. Could it have been avoided more easily if no one had repeated a claim from it as though it was authoritative here? Yes.

I don't need to ask you given that you have made it quite clear you do not, and not just in this post. What frustrated me is that you did not attempt to support that at all.

And yes, I would like an explanation for dismissing other's reasoning out of hand. Its one thing if the logic behind that conclusion isn't available, in which case no explanation is needed. I would understand that. But their logic IS. And even if their logic is terrible, saying "Its wrong" with no explanation is no better than saying 'Its right because they said so" with no other explanation.

[Kish]

Come now, you can fill in the gaps well enough. The logic chain goes:

1. Assume [for whatever reason] that characters take all the attacks of opportunity to which they are entitled.

2. Assume that actions not shown on panel are not taken.

2. In order to throw a character, a character must first grapple them.

3. If Roy did not have Improved Grapple, Gannji would have been entitled to make an attack of opportunity against Roy when Roy tried to grapple him.

4. Gannji was not shown to make an attack against Roy in between Roy starting to try to grab Gannji and successfully grabbing Gannji.

5. Given the above, Roy must have Improved Grapple.

Raise all the objections to the assumptions you like. They're probably good and valid given how the assumptions developed. But the steps are clear enough.
I see. All the Class and Level Geekery thread does is link to the strip, which had me scratching my head.

If Seward (or Keltest) had said "Roy must have Improved Grapple because Enor doesn't claw him when he grabs Enor from behind" I would likely have still found it poor evidence, considering Enor was looking away from him and focusing entirely on someone else. But whether I argued with it or not, at least there would have been something to argue with; the burden of evidence would have remained where it belongs--with the person making the positive assertion first.

[Keltest]

I see. All the Class and Level Geekery thread does is link to the strip, which had me scratching my head.

If Seward (or Keltest) had said "Roy must have Improved Grapple because Enor doesn't claw him when he grabs Enor from behind" I would likely have still found it poor evidence, considering Enor was looking away from him and focusing entirely on someone else. But whether I argued with it or not, at least there would have been something to argue with; the burden of evidence would have remained where it belongs--with the person making the positive assertion first.

I want to make something clear. I do not consider it valid evidence either. I am objecting purely to your methods of argument and communication skills, both of which are important in constructive discussion.

[SiuiS]

Do we know Roy gets a DEX bonus? Surely he must have at least one non-good stat? He has good STR and CON (because he's a front line fighter and not completely ineffective), INT (enough to put cross-class skill ranks in Knowledge Architecture and Engineering!), WIS (Durkon thinks he has a reasonable will save) and CHA (effective party leader?). If he wears heavy armour maybe he just doesn't need a DEX bonus, so actually has a dump stat?

Roy's charisma is terrible, he's just smart and often right, despite being an ass.

[zimmerwald1915]

I see. All the Class and Level Geekery thread does is link to the strip, which had me scratching my head.
Given the length and number of the initial posts, and the ease with which the gaps can be filled, I have no real objection to the shorthand of linking to the comic-as-evidence.


Roy's charisma is terrible, he's just smart and often right, despite being an ass.
The Giant and the bureaucratic deva say otherwise.

[archon_huskie]

There's too many assumptions to say he definitively has improved grapple.
Especially since the Giant has stated that the characters do not have actual character sheets

So the assumption that Roy and Gannji are taking all the AoO that they can would require the Giant to be keeping track of how many AoO they have. But that would require the Giant to have character sheets on all the characters to determine how many AoO they have.

Logic fail.

[Sir_Leorik]

Maybe Santa will suddenly pop up and start giving people stuff?
I mean, it'll still make more sense than it did in Narnia...


Not to derail the thread on the comic, but Father Christmas showing when he did made perfect sense. The White Witch's spell was causing Narnia to experience "always winter, but never Christmas." The arrival of Father Christmas is a sign that Aslan is moving again in Narnia and that the Witch's spell over Narnia is being broken.


Huh. Imperialist borealocentric authors, assuming "Christmas" must come in winter in an alien world with its own climate and, for that matter, calendar...

I can't speak for "Narnia", since I've never read it, but Santa Claus also makes an appearance in The Road to Oz, the fifth book in L. Frank Baum's "Oz" series, in order to pay respects to Princess Ozma on the occaisson of her birthday. Considering that Baum had previously written a book about Santa Claus, and that other characters from Baum's non-Oz books (like Trot and Cap'n Bill from "The Sea Faeries" and "Sky Island") later became fixtures of the "Oz" series, that really shouldn't be surprising. Basically in the "Oz" series, Santa Claus is just one of many fictional characters who can and do show up (in Santa Claus' case to give Ozma a birthday present).

Santa Claus' appearance in Road to Oz is little more than a cameo, compared to Trot and Cap'n Bill, who take up almost a third of The Scarecrow of Oz before the Scarecrow meets them, or Rinkitink, who was given the equivalent of a backdoor pilot (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoorlyDisguisedPilot) in Rinkitink in Oz. :smallsigh:

[Living Oxymoron]

While it's certainly doubtful to prove that Roy has Improved Grapple just because Ganjji didn't make an AoO, there is another instance of a grapple attempt that is followed by an attack of opportunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html). It's important to mention that Malack reveals, in that same strip, that Tarquin had taught him "a variety of exotic holding techniques". I would rather support that Malack had Improved Grapple, if it wasn't that AoO that Durkon makes, possibly because of that grapple attempt. Therefore, I must say that this subject concerning Attacks of Opportunity as evidence is still very controversial.

[Rakoa]

There's too many assumptions to say he definitively has improved grapple.
Especially since the Giant has stated that the characters do not have actual character sheets

So the assumption that Roy and Gannji are taking all the AoO that they can would require the Giant to be keeping track of how many AoO they have. But that would require the Giant to have character sheets on all the characters to determine how many AoO they have.

Logic fail.

No it isn't. The point of the thread isn't to determine the stats on the character sheets that Rich has written up but to provide a set of stats that would allow one to replicate everything that character is capable of. If they decide Roy has Improved Grapple it isn't because Rich has it on a sheet, it's because Roy can initiate grapples without provoking AoO's, and so it's included to those who are interested.

[Kish]

"Roy can initiate grapples (plural) without (ever) provoking attacks of opportunity" is taking a great deal more from that scene than I believe it is justified to take from that scene, as I already outlined.

And sticking with the specific topic under discussion, it is entirely inappropriate to look at that scene and take away, "In all parts of the Order of the Stick, Roy can be assumed to have a Dexterity of 13 or higher and any speculation that hinges on it being lower should be squashed and dismissed out of hand." It would be nothing to me if the Class and Level Geekery thread declared Roy was actually a half-orc, if it didn't then show up in other parts of the forum, being treated as at most a half-step removed from "Rich Burlew said this."

[Sir_Leorik]

It would be nothing to me if the Class and Level Geekery thread declared Roy was actually a half-orc, if it didn't then show up in other parts of the forum, being treated as at most a half-step removed from "Rich Burlew said this."

Do they actually do that? Aren't they bound by rules or something? Are they going to declare Yikyik to have been using Pun-Pun's build? :smalltongue:

[DeliaP]

Ummm.... have I got this right?

We started talking about whether Roy was going to upgrade his armour....

...I believe I wondered if he even had a Dex bonus, so speculation started about what Roy's stats might be...

... but this has then turned into a debate about whether the CLG thread, where they propose D&D stats for characters who are acknowledged to not actually have D&D stats, is a reliable source for D&D stats for characters who are acknowledged to not actually have D&D stats? :smallconfused:

Ummm... OK....

So, if Roy has Improved Grapple, then he must have Dex 13+, so he would have a Dex bonus to AC, which he might lose if he had too heavy armour. So he might not want to swap his current magic armour for heavier armour.

And if doesn't have Improved Grapple, then we don't know anything about his Dex bonus (or penalty!) to AC. And so can't tell whether he has a Dex bonus to lose if he were to trade up for heavier armour.

Although he probably has quite good magic armour already and if he were to trade up it would most likely be increasing the magic of the armour, rather than going for a heavier armour type right now, as he probably already has as heavy an armour type as he can without losing a Dex bonus (that's the way I usually do it when I'm playing melee types, anyway...)

(And the only evidence for Improved Grapple is Enor not taking a swipe at him in the tavern brawl)

Does that about cover it? Great! :smalltongue:

Now, the important question: has he upgraded his armour at all during the entire strip? Because otherwise he either had pretty good magic armour for his level at the start, or now he doesn't have that good magic armour for his level.

But if he has upgraded, then he must be going to an effort to repaint each new set of armour to look like the last, which normally you'd only do if it was a family coat of arms, or something like that....

[tyckspoon]

Does that about cover it? Great! :smalltongue:

Now, the important question: has he upgraded his armour at all during the entire strip? Because otherwise he either had pretty good magic armour for his level at the start, or now he doesn't have that good magic armour for his level.


Never been called out as specifically being upgraded, but if it's not having some interesting special function added or resulting in an art change The Giant probably isn't going to waste panel space on Roy having his armor upgraded from +2 to +3. It's not really relevant to anything except the curiosity of the Class & Level folks.

(Since he has a friendly high-level cleric as part of his party, Roy could also be doing the 'just hit it with a Magic Vestments every day' dodge to cover his armor bonuses too. They don't run into Dispelling casters often enough to make that very risky.)

[zimmerwald1915]

resulting in an art change
Actually, after the end of Don't Split the Party, the Giant started drawing Roy's armor with a neck notch that hadn't been there before. Compare his last appearance in that book (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) with his first appearance in this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html).

[Sir_Leorik]

Actually, after the end of Don't Split the Party, the Giant started drawing Roy's armor with a neck notch that hadn't been there before. Compare his last appearance in that book (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) with his first appearance in this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html).

Maybe Roy removed his gorget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorget#As_part_of_armour) because it was really hot in the desert?

[hamishspence]

Actually, after the end of Don't Split the Party, the Giant started drawing Roy's armor with a neck notch that hadn't been there before. Compare his last appearance in that book (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) with his first appearance in this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html).

I think you quoted 671 twice- 673 is the one with the notch first appearing:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html

[zimmerwald1915]

I think you quoted 671 twice- 673 is the one with the notch first appearing:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html
So I did. Thanks. Should be fixed now :smallredface:

[DeliaP]

(Since he has a friendly high-level cleric as part of his party, Roy could also be doing the 'just hit it with a Magic Vestments every day' dodge to cover his armor bonuses too. They don't run into Dispelling casters often enough to make that very risky.)

Well now, if that's been the approach then it may well be time for an upgrade because they're heading for an epic showdown with an epic sorcerer lich, and dispelling buffs is just the kind of "hey, guess how you suck" thing Xykon would pull?

[Benthesquid]

And its own Christ-figure...

Nope! Aslan is not a Christ-figure. Aslan is Jesus.

[Keltest]

Nope! Aslan is not a Christ-figure. Aslan is Jesus.

Im fairly certain that he counts as a Christ-figure.

[DeliaP]

Im fairly certain that he counts as a Christ-figure.

I think the point is that CSLewis wasn't presenting Aslan as a stand in, or allegory, for Jesus. Aslan quite literally (in the literal sense of literally) is Jesus.

[gorocz]

Why even bother with figuring if he has more than +1 DEX bonus? No matter how high a DEX bonus you have, a Full Plate of the same bonus enhancement value is always at least 1 AC better than a Breastplate, isn't it? (+5AC, Max. Dex +3 for Breastplate; +8AC, Max. Dex +1 for a Full Plate). I get that it comes with additional -2 armor check penalty and heavy armour makes you run 25% slower (base speed is the same, right?), but both of these are really not that important, when you have Durkon next to you... And I think that even generally, if it has "more magics" and you have the proficiency, take the Full Plate...

Nevertheless, I predict that if he does get a new armor, it's gonna be for sure in the Dwarven Lands (where they'll be possibly stopping to resurrect Durkon) and it could be even mithral, which would make this whole debate moot (of course, unless his current armor is also mithral, but then the debate is somewhere else completely).

[Skorj]

In the sense that cheese is made by forging it, basically, perhaps.


Dwarven Battle Cheese is forged with adamantium hammer and anvil in a volcanic blast furnace, and tempered by being thrust still glowing into the sapwood of a sausage tree. Oh, woe be unto he who bites into a ham and Battle Cheese sandwich unawares!

[JCAll]

While the precise effects of starmetal in Rich's setting are not completely defined, I feel confident in saying Roy's +5 greatsword is not a nonmagical greatsword.

Once anything starts spitting Green Fire, I just start assuming it's magical.

[Hytheter]

Once anything starts spitting Green Fire, I just start assuming it's magical.

Have you ever burnt copper? :smallbiggrin:

[archon_huskie]

You mean the magic flame of the penny?

[DeliaP]

Why even bother with figuring if he has more than +1 DEX bonus? No matter how high a DEX bonus you have, a Full Plate of the same bonus enhancement value is always at least 1 AC better than a Breastplate, isn't it? (+5AC, Max. Dex +3 for Breastplate; +8AC, Max. Dex +1 for a Full Plate). I get that it comes with additional -2 armor check penalty and heavy armour makes you run 25% slower (base speed is the same, right?), but both of these are really not that important, when you have Durkon next to you... And I think that even generally, if it has "more magics" and you have the proficiency, take the Full Plate...

Nevertheless, I predict that if he does get a new armor, it's gonna be for sure in the Dwarven Lands (where they'll be possibly stopping to resurrect Durkon) and it could be even mithral, which would make this whole debate moot (of course, unless his current armor is also mithral, but then the debate is somewhere else completely).

Thing is, and I admit this is pure interpretation of a stick figure, the Giant has depicted characters in much heavier looking armour.... which is at least suggestive that Roy isn't wearing full plate....

[Sir_Leorik]

You mean the magic flame of the penny?

No, they're not using copper in pennies these days. It's all brass and zinc. :smallsigh:

[Domino Quartz]

No, they're not using copper in pennies these days. It's all brass and zinc. :smallsigh:

Actually, they're still coated with copper.

[Vinyadan]

Actually, they're still coated with copper.

Slurp slurp.

[Oko and Qailee]

I personally would not call Roy particularly charismatic. Hes certainly not repulsive, but it has not been my impression that the order follows him because hes inspiring or anything like that. Otherwise Elan would be the leader (*shudder*)! And while he may or may not have a dex bonus, he certainly would try to avoid a dex penalty, because that can directly hurt him in combat.

I think he simply just has all around good stat rolls. Without knowing how the Giant would determine that (flat total to distribute, roll for each stat in order or what), we cant really say for sure.

We know that Roy's Wis and Charisma are at least above average. Basically other than Dex, all the comic evidence says ROy has above average in all stats. I wouldn't be surprised if he has lower Dex though.

[Amphiox]

Actually, they're still coated with copper.

And it doesn't take very much to get the green flame effect...

Of course, any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic, and any sufficiently described magic is science.

Copper, incidentally, has anti-microbial properties, which is as close as anything in the real world gets to "special bonus against undead"....


We know that Roy's Wis and Charisma are at least above average. Basically other than Dex, all the comic evidence says ROy has above average in all stats. I wouldn't be surprised if he has lower Dex though.

In comic evidence:

1. He gets impaled an awful lot.

2. He looked rather ungainly while being thrown into a pillar.

3. He landed from a fall with a very undextrous splat.

[Seward]

Roy moves faster than Durkon. (whenever they flee, he carries durkon. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0004.html)

Roy also has a much better move silent than Durkon.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0024.html

Roy either has some kind of unspecified feat that lets him move in heavy armor faster than normal, or he's using a mithril breastplate. A mithril bp would also only have an armor check penalty of -1, with a 13+ dex he'd have either a zero or positive stealth mod, which is fairly respectable for a heavy infantry.

Use of a mithril BP doesn't imply a high dex, but does allow for it, and barring mithril fullplate, if Roy had a very high dex he could get more out of it than normal fullplate. But it is pretty unlikely Roy's dex is that high (a mithril BP is good up to 20 dex).

Roy's a 2h fighter. Durkon probably has better AC...Roy's AC is only good compared to the chain-shirt-brigade that's the rest of his party (plus a robed squishie). It's not at all uncommon for people who weild 2h weapons to try to keep mobility high and not go crazy trying to keep up with AC the way the sword+board guys do.

So anyway...on topic. I vote for a mithril BP, and at level 15, it'd be dirt cheap to be +5...a tiny fraction of his wealth by level, half the cost of that sword even just assuming it's as pricy as adamantine+5 and nothing for that weird disrupting effect.

His dex is open to debate, but most really low dex melee fighters either give up on AC entirely or go with the heavy armor to make up for it. Breastplate wearing single-classed fighters tend toward a positive dex mod.

[Snails]

The "problem" with mitral BP is that Roy claimed that his armor impeded his swimming too much to dare plunge into water. Mithral BP has an ACP of -1, which gives a -2 to Roy's swim check.

Roy is sufficiently strong that he probably swims better than most of his party in merely standard MW BP. With mithral BP, Roy would be a strong swimmer (net Swim skill of +5 or better) even with no skills points invested.

As for Roy's movement, we do not know that his Move is better than Durkon's. It is possible that only Roy's Run is better than Durkon's. That could be a difference in armor (breatplate, or mithril platearmor) or the Run feat.

[veti]

Dwarven Battle Cheese is forged with adamantium hammer and anvil in a volcanic blast furnace, and tempered by being thrust still glowing into the sapwood of a sausage tree. Oh, woe be unto he who bites into a ham and Battle Cheese sandwich unawares!

Actually, if you can bite as far as the cheese through the dwarf bread, (http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/index.php/Dwarf_Bread) you'll probably be fine.

[Keltest]

The "problem" with mitral BP is that Roy claimed that his armor impeded his swimming too much to dare plunge into water. Mithral BP has an ACP of -1, which gives a -2 to Roy's swim check.

Roy is sufficiently strong that he probably swims better than most of his party in merely standard MW BP. With mithral BP, Roy would be a strong swimmer (net Swim skill of +5 or better) even with no skills points invested.

As for Roy's movement, we do not know that his Move is better than Durkon's. It is possible that only Roy's Run is better than Durkon's. That could be a difference in armor (breatplate, or mithril platearmor) or the Run feat.

I don't think he meant it that literally. The ONLY thing they could see in that other world was water, which means land is almost certainly outside of his (and Durkon's) max swimming distance.

[DeliaP]

Dwarven Battle Cheese is forged with adamantium hammer and anvil in a volcanic blast furnace, and tempered by being thrust still glowing into the sapwood of a sausage tree. Oh, woe be unto he who bites into a ham and Battle Cheese sandwich unawares!

When I first read this post, I jumped to the conclusion you were talking about the new armour Roy was going to get made in the Dwarven homelands :smallsmile:

[Storm_Of_Snow]

No, they're not using copper in pennies these days. It's all brass and zinc. :smallsigh:
Brass is a mixture of copper and zinc. :smallamused:

US pennies are zinc with a copper coating, UK 1 and 2p coins are copper over steel.



Copper, incidentally, has anti-microbial properties, which is as close as anything in the real world gets to "special bonus against undead"....

As does Silver, and they recently discovered some insect wings (moths IIRC) have a nanoscale structure such that any bacteria landing on them are effectively pulled apart and destroyed.


As for Roy's movement, we do not know that his Move is better than Durkon's. It is possible that only Roy's Run is better than Durkon's. That could be a difference in armor (breatplate, or mithril platearmor) or the Run feat.
From the SRD - human base land speed is 30 feet, dwarves is 20 feet.

So yes, at a base level, Roy moves quicker than Durkon, although carrying him, to maintain his higher speed, he'd have to be strong enough and both of them carrying low amounts of equipment, so that he'd stay in the light load category.

[Vinyadan]

From the SRD - human base land speed is 30 feet, dwarves is 20 feet.

So yes, at a base level, Roy moves quicker than Durkon, although carrying him, to maintain his higher speed, he'd have to be strong enough and both of them carrying low amounts of equipment, so that he'd stay in the light load category.

Something I find interesting in Origins of the PC

As it's the prequel, they still have the 3.0 rules. Durkon cannot charge from the same distance as Roy (30feet vs 40feet), because he still is hindered by armour movement reduction, which will be taken away in 3.5.

[Sir_Leorik]

Brass is a mixture of copper and zinc. :smallamused:

Right, I did learn that, but not all of us got passing grades in Chem, thank you very much. :smallannoyed:


US pennies are zinc with a copper coating, UK 1 and 2p coins are copper over steel.

So basically US pennies are mostly zinc, with a bit of copper tossed in. Kind of like the "goldish" pieces used in Ankh-Morpork before they switched over to the Golem Standard. As for the UK, based on what you said they seem to have decided to follow Ansalon's example and issue Steel Pieces. I never really understood why they did that in "Dragonlance". If iron and steel are in short supply, wouldn't it make sense to use them for useful things, like plows, pitchforks, swords, armor, and arrowheads, rather than using them as coins?

On Athas, which had an equally bad, if not worse shortage of iron during the Red Age as Ansalon had following the Cataclysm, the Sorcerer Kings instituted a currency that used ceramic disks glazed gold, silver, copper or left unglazed, as their currency. Each city-state's currency was backed by the full faith and credit of the Sorcerer King in question (as in if you refused to accept the currency in the city state the Templars would have you kicked out of the city, and if you tried to counterfeit the currency the Templars would enslave you and toss you in the gladiator pits), but the currency from one city state couldn't be used in another city state (or even removed from some city states), so Elven moneychangers and heads of great merchant houses make a brisk profit converting the ceramic coins into trade goods or actual gold, silver or copper coins. I realize that "Dragonlance" specifically wanted gold and silver to be worthless compared to iron and steel, but steel pieces? On Athas anyone with iron (or better yet steel) forges it into a weapon, preferrably with an enchantment. (They wouldn't make steel armor, or wear any if they found it, because it's hot on Athas. Wearing metal armor is a good way to get dehydrated very quickly and wind up as a monster's lunch.)

Speaking of wearing metal armor in a desert, Roy and Durkon have been avoiding heat stroke thanks to Durkon casting Endure Elements spells on the party.

(Wow, I actually said something about Roy's armor in this thread. As Elan would say, "I contributed!")

[Snails]

From the SRD - human base land speed is 30 feet, dwarves is 20 feet.

So yes, at a base level, Roy moves quicker than Durkon, although carrying him, to maintain his higher speed, he'd have to be strong enough and both of them carrying low amounts of equipment, so that he'd stay in the light load category.

Roy "invisible" (naked :smallwink: ) --> MV 30, run 120
Roy w/mithral breastplate --> MV 30, run 120
Roy w/breastplate --> MV 20, run 80
Roy w/mithral full plate --> MV 20, run 80
Roy w/full plate --> MV 20, run 60

Durkon w/full plate --> MV 20, run 60

There are only a few choices about why Roy would Move faster than Durkon. There are several choices where Roy could Run faster than Durkon.

[Vinyadan]

If iron and steel are in short supply, wouldn't it make sense to use them for useful things, like plows, pitchforks, swords, armor, and arrowheads, rather than using them as coins?

Sparta used iron coins - a little souvenir of when iron was worth as much as gold, because it was hard to work with, which limited the quantity of available objects and raised its value.

[Sir_Leorik]

Sparta used iron coins - a little souvenir of when iron was worth as much as gold, because it was hard to work with, which limited the quantity of available objects and raised its value.

But that still begs the question: wouldn't the Spartans have preferred to have those iron coins worked into spear tips, shields and helmets?

It makes sense that gold was used for coinage, because gold is a) rare, and b) melts at a low temperature (and can even be worked easily without melting it down). If an object is both rarer than gold and harder to work than gold, it really doesn't make sense to use it for coins.

[JustWantedToSay]

But that still begs the question: wouldn't the Spartans have preferred to have those iron coins worked into spear tips, shields and helmets?

It makes sense that gold was used for coinage, because gold is a) rare, and b) melts at a low temperature (and can even be worked easily without melting it down). If an object is both rarer than gold and harder to work than gold, it really doesn't make sense to use it for coins.

Bronze came first. And bronze was superior to Iron in weapons and armor.

The advantage of the Iron Age was mass-production, when iron became common, it became much more plentiful than bronze, and could equip much larger armies.

When Iron was rare there would be no reason to waste it in a armory.

[brionl]

But that still begs the question: wouldn't the Spartans have preferred to have those iron coins worked into spear tips, shields and helmets?

It makes sense that gold was used for coinage, because gold is a) rare, and b) melts at a low temperature (and can even be worked easily without melting it down). If an object is both rarer than gold and harder to work than gold, it really doesn't make sense to use it for coins.

Yeah, that never happened. Iron or steel were never more valuable than gold. They were more valuable than bronze.


Bronze came first. And bronze was superior to Iron in weapons and armor.


No it isn't. Bronze is heavier, softer, and doesn't take an edge very well.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

I never really understood why they did that in "Dragonlance". If iron and steel are in short supply, wouldn't it make sense to use them for useful things, like plows, pitchforks, swords, armor, and arrowheads, rather than using them as coins?
Not necessarily.

Firstly, how much do you have? Is there simply not enough of the raw material around? Is it of good enough quality to make useful items, or is it poor quality and prone to defects? Can you afford to import enough?

Secondly, how much can you make? Does it require processing methods that you have difficulty with, or a lot of training to be able to produce? Are they sufficient people that can manufacture all your requirements, or is it effectively a new technology known to only a very few, and everyone else can just make the previous technology? Or are there political pressures - are only a few people allowed to manufacture it, and then only for specific clients (for instance, are only royalty allowed steel armour and weapons, and everyone else is limited to bronze)? Are the Guild of Flint-knappers upset because your iron arrowheads threaten to make their stone ones obsolete, and they've got the ears of the local dignitaries?

Thirdly, how much do you need to make? Iron and steel coins you can make in bulk with moulds, quickly and easily - pour it in, let it cool, open the mould, cut the sprue off and throw it back in the scrap pile to be reused. A sword blade or a plow you can start with a mould, but then you need to spend time forging and treating it to give it the properties that it needs so that it holds an edge and doesn't bend or shatter when you hit something.

Fourthly, are there other factors at play? Maybe you can make steel armour, but you're in a climate or environment that makes it disadvantegous to wear (say you're an island nation and most of your military are on board ships). Maybe you or your enemies prefer a style of fighting that precludes against you having steel armour.

And finally, do you even know that it can be used for such things? To an extent, until you try it, you don't know whether the material is suitable. Or maybe you establish that it is theoretically suitable, but it fails in practise because you don't realise that you need something complimentary to it that will make it both usable and better than what already exists.

[Vinyadan]

But that still begs the question: wouldn't the Spartans have preferred to have those iron coins worked into spear tips, shields and helmets?

It makes sense that gold was used for coinage, because gold is a) rare, and b) melts at a low temperature (and can even be worked easily without melting it down). If an object is both rarer than gold and harder to work than gold, it really doesn't make sense to use it for coins.

Because you think of money as of something having nominal value; but in the dawn of times (not exactly a scientific expression, but it gives you an idea) they used cattle, because cattle had a high intrinsic value, and this value came from its utility.

For the same reason, they later used gold (Persia) or silver. The important factor is that a high value can be made portable (and cattle can walk). That's how it works with banknotes, and made extreme with credit cards, which give you access to an incredible quantity of value and weight only a few grams. Be the value intrinsic or not, it makes no difference.

By the way, I made a mistake: the Spartan currency weren't actual coins, but iron spits, just to be more archaic. And the Romans paid their men during the siege of Veii (406-396 BC) with bronze (or copper, I am not sure right now) ingots.


Bronze came first. And bronze was superior to Iron in weapons and armor. [...]
When Iron was rare there would be no reason to waste it in a armory.

Unless you mean that iron working technology had then not yet been brought to the same level of bronze, about which I don't know much, this is wrong.


Yeah, that never happened. Iron or steel were never more valuable than gold. They were more valuable than bronze.

They weren't more valuable than gold, but, in the times of the siege of Troy, they were on the same level.

You can also find iron among the prizes described in Iliad XXIII.


There's also to say that Greek armour and weapon production was much more complex than we usually think, and that it involved a good lot of different materials. Under the metal armor there was, for example, a thick layer of wood.

And, finally, ancient Greece was chronically poor of natural resources, when compared to other civilizations. This could have tipped the scales when choosing what to produce and which technology to develop.

[Keltest]

No it isn't. Bronze is heavier, softer, and doesn't take an edge very well.

It is from the perspective of an army, at least when ironworking was still fairly experimental. Its much easier/cheaper to equip large numbers people with something that people know how to work with, and is easier to acquire in a good enough quality for equipment.

[tyckspoon]

No it isn't. Bronze is heavier, softer, and doesn't take an edge very well.

A bit heavier, definitely not softer, takes an edge well enough for most purposes (you don't *need* a razor's edge on a weapon or a cutting tool for most things, and for those applications where you did want it [which would be.. I don't know, surgeries, certain kitchen tools?] you could use a stone blade, which while not especially good for the stresses of combat could be chipped into excessively sharp edges.) It *was* better for combat uses. It was also more difficult to make than iron and harder to acquire; typical bronze was made from copper and tin, and you generally don't find copper and tin in the same places. Iron was the worse material, but it was good enough, and more importantly you could find it dang near everywhere. You didn't have to pay for large quantities of imported tin in order to make use of iron items.

[Knaight]

Yeah, that never happened. Iron or steel were never more valuable than gold. They were more valuable than bronze.

It's worth noting that this is somewhat local. As far as I know you're correct regarding Hellenic society - but in Egypt this gets overturned.

[YossarianLives]

Why would Roy replace his armor?

("It's common practice to gear up a ton before heading into the final battle"...What? Roy said to head for the North Pole, not for the nearest magic item store.)

Yes but we know that Durkon will return home "Posthumously" And well he is dead now. And we know that the dwarven lands are in the north. AND we know that Kragors gate is near some sort of dwarven settlement. As all the gates were nearest to they're guardians homeland.

So logic dictates that oots will at some point go to the dwarven lands.

[Kish]

Yes but we know that Durkon will return home "Posthumously" And well he is dead now. And we know that the dwarven lands are in the north. AND we know that Kragors gate is near some sort of dwarven settlement. As all the gates were nearest to they're guardians homeland.

So logic dictates that oots will at some point go to the dwarven lands.
Yes, yes, yes, no (check Serini's proposed compromise again; her terms would put the gate she took to guard closest to her homeland, whether she chose to name it Kraagor's Gate and set it up as a tomb to Kraagor or not), yes, and why is this being presented as a contradiction to what I said? The dwarven lands aren't a giant magic item store.

[Keltest]

Yes, yes, yes, no (check Serini's proposed compromise again; her terms would put the gate she took to guard closest to her homeland, whether she chose to name it Kraagor's Gate and set it up as a tomb to Kraagor or not), yes, and why is this being presented as a contradiction to what I said? The dwarven lands aren't a giant magic item store.

Didn't they say that the last gate was at the north pole?

[Vinyadan]

Didn't they say that the last gate was at the north pole?

Beyond the range of wild forest fires (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html)? That's unsafe! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html)

[JustWantedToSay]

No it isn't. Bronze is heavier, softer, and doesn't take an edge very well.

Please read: http://www.mse.berkeley.edu/groups/morris/MSE200/I-structure.pdf chapters 1.1 and 1.4

A) Heavier is generally makes better. The heavier a weapon is the more force it imparts. The heavier a shield is the better it can stand it's ground. Sure there's a limit, but the slight increase of weight of bronze, is not enough to cross that limit.

B) Bronze age bronze was not softer than early iron age iron.
" bronze is generally harder than wrought iron, with Vickers hardness of 60–258[7] vs. 30–80,[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze#History)

[Sir_Leorik]

Bronze came first. And bronze was superior to Iron in weapons and armor.

The advantage of the Iron Age was mass-production, when iron became common, it became much more plentiful than bronze, and could equip much larger armies.

When Iron was rare there would be no reason to waste it in a armory.

But different societies had different access to iron. The Hyksos and the Phoenicians had more access to iron than other societies did. Also some societies (like Egypt) continued to use copper (not even advancing to bronze) because copper was more plentiful, and they'd always used copper, so why upgrade. (That attitude bit them real hard whent he Hyksos invaded Egypt using chariots and iron weapons.) But if a society has both access to iron and the means to work it, why not use it for weapons and armor, even if it's only for the king or the generals?


Yeah, that never happened. Iron or steel were never more valuable than gold. They were more valuable than bronze.

... Bronze is heavier, softer, and doesn't take an edge very well.

Which is why upgrading to iron would be beneficial. But because it's a harder material, iron is harder to work. The benefit of bronze is that it's an alloy of two softer base metals, worked into a slightly harder metal.


Firstly, how much do you have? Is there simply not enough of the raw material around? Is it of good enough quality to make useful items, or is it poor quality and prone to defects? Can you afford to import enough?

In "Dark Sun" the answer to these questions is "Very little", "Yes", "The iron that's available is of good quality, and there is plenty of knowledge of iron working, but there's only one working iron mine in the world, so everyone makes do with wooden weapons (usually adorned with stone, obsidian or the bones or chitin of monsters) and leather, hide or chitin armor", and "There's only one mine, and Kalak forbade exporting it to other city-states (I'm not sure if Tithian, the king following Kalak's overthrow, kept this rule or allowed exports").

In "Dragonlance" the answers to all of those questions are "The Cataclysm, okay?"


Secondly, how much can you make? Does it require processing methods that you have difficulty with, or a lot of training to be able to produce? Are they sufficient people that can manufacture all your requirements, or is it effectively a new technology known to only a very few, and everyone else can just make the previous technology? Or are there political pressures - are only a few people allowed to manufacture it, and then only for specific clients (for instance, are only royalty allowed steel armour and weapons, and everyone else is limited to bronze)? Are the Guild of Flint-knappers upset because your iron arrowheads threaten to make their stone ones obsolete, and they've got the ears of the local dignitaries?

In "Dark Sun" the answer really does have to do with scarcity. The world of Athas is essentially a post-apocalyptic society. The knowledge of iron working is still maintained, and Kalak's personal guard were always decked out in iron armor, despite the heat, and used iron weapons. Most iron weapons were used by noblemen, the Templars (servants of the Sorcerer-Kings) or are found by adventurers in old tombs, the sites of ancient battlefields, or temples dedicated to dead gods. There are probably gladiators who use iron weapons, and in 2E there were magical spells to make wooden, bone, obsidian or stone weapons the equal of iron ones; in 4E magic weapons made of those materials are already the equal of iron weapons.

In "Dragonlance" there is allegedly a shortage of iron and steel, yet the Knights of Solamnia, the Dwarves, the Elves, the Dragon Armies, even Kender, Gully Dwarves and Tinker Gnomes, all use steel weapons and armor. The Dragonlances are forged of magical steel, and while Tanis and Sturm Brightblade both use weapons and armor forged long before the Cataclysm, there is no real shortage. The only thing that seems to have happened is that no one values gold anymore, but there was never an explanation given of why that should be so.


Thirdly, how much do you need to make? Iron and steel coins you can make in bulk with moulds, quickly and easily - pour it in, let it cool, open the mould, cut the sprue off and throw it back in the scrap pile to be reused. A sword blade or a plow you can start with a mould, but then you need to spend time forging and treating it to give it the properties that it needs so that it holds an edge and doesn't bend or shatter when you hit something.

We're talking about a campaign setting ("Dragonlance") where wars between Good and Evil (often involving Dragons) break out frequently. They need weapons, armor, stirrups to ride horses and dragons, and other items made of steel. Unless they're melting down the coins frequently to make into items that are desperately needed, it seems like they would be better off adopting a different form of currency (like the ceramic pieces used in "Dark Sun"). Elves could use wooden pieces, painted different colors, Dwarves could use rocks or gems, Tinker Gnomes could print paper money or use Giant Space Hamsters, and Kender could take what they want. ("Oh, I'm sorry, you seem to have lost your purse of gems and greenbacks! It's a good thing I found it before someone stole it!")


Fourthly, are there other factors at play? Maybe you can make steel armour, but you're in a climate or environment that makes it disadvantegous to wear (say you're an island nation and most of your military are on board ships). Maybe you or your enemies prefer a style of fighting that precludes against you having steel armour.

That is an issue in the "Dark Sun" campaign setting; wearing armor will cause heatstroke in the desert (and even in a city). Armor made from leather, beast hides, or the chitin and shells of monsters, are much preferred to metal armor. But in "Dragonlance" the Knights of Solamnia are famous for one thing: wearing distinctive plate armor. No, wait, they are famous for two things: wearing plate armor and growing distinctive mustaches. And being a bunch of stick-in-the-muds. Gah! They are famous for three things: wearing plate armor, growing distinctive mustaches and being a bunch of stick-in-the-muds. Moving on...


And finally, do you even know that it can be used for such things? To an extent, until you try it, you don't know whether the material is suitable. Or maybe you establish that it is theoretically suitable, but it fails in practise because you don't realise that you need something complimentary to it that will make it both usable and better than what already exists.

Yes, yes they do. Steel was used extensively before the Cataclysm for weapons and armor. Many steel weapons and armor that predate the Cataclysm still exist, some of them even magical. The same goes for Athas: iron weapons and armor can be found from the Green Age, before the Champions of Rajaat caused the ruin of the world with Defiling Magic.

Despite the similarities, no one in "Dark Sun" makes coins out of iron, unless their goal is to smuggle the iron into a city-state and forge a weapon there to murder someone. (Oh, that is a brilliant idea for an adventure! The PCs are hired to stop a Minstrel from murdering their client's relative, a wealthy merchant, but they don't know how the Minstrel is going to acquire the weapon to kill her! The Minstrel has been smuggling bags of iron coins into Nibenay via a group of shady Elves, and has hired a Dray to forge the coins into crossbow bolts!) It's only in "Dragonlance" that steel coins are used.


Because you think of money as of something having nominal value; but in the dawn of times (not exactly a scientific expression, but it gives you an idea) they used cattle, because cattle had a high intrinsic value, and this value came from its utility.

For the same reason, they later used gold (Persia) or silver. The important factor is that a high value can be made portable (and cattle can walk). That's how it works with banknotes, and made extreme with credit cards, which give you access to an incredible quantity of value and weight only a few grams. Be the value intrinsic or not, it makes no difference.

By the way, I made a mistake: the Spartan currency weren't actual coins, but iron spits, just to be more archaic. And the Romans paid their men during the siege of Veii (406-396 BC) with bronze (or copper, I am not sure right now) ingots.

Using ingots as measures of value makes sense, because ingots are usually used to make other objects. But coins are usually intended to pass hands through many people. When you barter a cow for iron ingots, you don't intend to use the cow to pay for groceries. You intend to either milk the cow or slaughter it for meat (possibly as a sacrifice in some societies, which you then eat after ritually pouring blood on an altar). The reason for the development of currency was related to the development of cities and the concept of taxation. If a farmer is taxed a percentage of his crop, and is expected to bring the crop to the ruler, he has two choices: transform the crop into a less perishable state (grain alcohol, or pickling vegetables for example) or trading part of the crop for currency or for animals that can be transported on the hoof to the capital. As societies advance, trading through barter was relegated more and more to the lowest classes, who still might need currency from time to time for some purposes.

Paying troops in iron doesn't make sense, unless the troops were expected to forge their own weapons (which makes me see the powergamers abusing the "Weaponsmith" Non-Weapon Proficiency back in 2E in a whole new light :smalltongue:) It might make sense if they are taking loot and booty and selling it to get coin.


It is from the perspective of an army, at least when ironworking was still fairly experimental. Its much easier/cheaper to equip large numbers people with something that people know how to work with, and is easier to acquire in a good enough quality for equipment.

But we're not really discussing Sparta during the Bronze ages. We're discussing Palanthas, Qualinost, Solace and Pax Tharkas during the years following the Cataclysm! A typical Knight of Solmnia is decked out in Plate Armor and carries a steel longsword and shield or a steel greatsword. Qualinesti Elves wore the equivalent of Elven Chain (made out of the local Mithril knock-off) and wielded steel longswords and wooden shields. Knights of Takhisis were equipped roughly the same as Knights of Solamnia. Dwarves usually wore steel chainmail or banded mail, and wielded steel greataxes or warhammers. Caramon Majere wore steel chainmail and wielded a greatsword. Tika also wore steel chainmail, and wielded a longsword. And then there are the Tinker Gnomes of Mt. Nevermind. Do realize how much iron is used to construct the hamster wheel of a Giant Space Hamster? :smalltongue:

They knew how to forge steel weapons and armor, yet they're using steel to make coins?!? I still don't understand this.

[Kish]

Didn't they say that the last gate was at the north pole?
Barring unlikely jokes about Santa Claus, the North Pole is not a giant magic item store either.

[Sir_Leorik]

Barring unlikely jokes about Santa Claus, the North Pole is not a giant magic item store either.

True, but Kraagor's tomb is a dungeon. One stocked with lots monsters. There should be plenty of loot in there. Assuming Xykon and Redcloak haven't hogged all the good stuff already. :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

But we're not really discussing Sparta during the Bronze ages. We're discussing Palanthas, Qualinost, Solace and Pax Tharkas during the years following the Cataclysm! A typical Knight of Solmnia is decked out in Plate Armor and carries a steel longsword and shield or a steel greatsword. Qualinesti Elves wore the equivalent of Elven Chain (made out of the local Mithril knock-off) and wielded steel longswords and wooden shields. Knights of Takhisis were equipped roughly the same as Knights of Solamnia. Dwarves usually wore steel chainmail or banded mail, and wielded steel greataxes or warhammers. Caramon Majere wore steel chainmail and wielded a greatsword. Tika also wore steel chainmail, and wielded a longsword. And then there are the Tinker Gnomes of Mt. Nevermind. Do realize how much iron is used to construct the hamster wheel of a Giant Space Hamster? :smalltongue:

They knew how to forge steel weapons and armor, yet they're using steel to make coins?!? I still don't understand this.

Its my understanding that it wasn't a literal "theres so little steel now" anymore, as it was "weve been using steel coins forever, why go back to gold?" With the Cataclysm, gold WOULD become near useless, while trading in steel or other practical supplies would be much better for all involved. They probably wouldn't have used actual coins, instead using ingots or other chunks of steel by weight. As time moved on and steel became more readily available, it remained the currency so people molded it into coins.

Gold on the other hand, for all it's worth to us, is pretty, and that's about it, at least as far as a quasi-feudal society like Dragonlance would be concerned. Someone with an existing currency would not likely think to use gold unless the current methods of coinage were seriously resource prohibitive. It makes a handy backup currency for commerce at the city or nation scale, but theres like... 3 or 4 actual nations, counting the demihumans.

[Sir_Leorik]

Its my understanding that it wasn't a literal "theres so little steel now" anymore, as it was "weve been using steel coins forever, why go back to gold?" With the Cataclysm, gold WOULD become near useless, while trading in steel or other practical supplies would be much better for all involved. They probably wouldn't have used actual coins, instead using ingots or other chunks of steel by weight. As time moved on and steel became more readily available, it remained the currency so people molded it into coins.

Nope. There are rules for steel pieces, rules for converting gold piece prices in other AD&D materiel into steel pieces, and when Caramon and Tasslehoff traveled back in time to the period before the Cataclysm, they were arrested for vagrancy and sold into slavery, because they had no gold or silver on them, only worthless steel. Caramon and Tas even seem confused that gold is valuable, at least at first. (Raistlin, on the other hand, came prepared and packed gold for when he traveled back in time.)

The second book in the "Legends" trilogy takes place over a century after the Cataclysm, when Ansalon is in much worse shape than it is in the period of the War of the Lance. The real scarcity in that book is food, healing, remedies for diseases and leadership. Not weapons or armor, not steel, not gold. Food. Clothing. Magical healing. Lady Crysania tries to fill the void, but she only has so many spell slots, and Paladine isn't scheduled for a come back until the Disks of Mishakal are recovered in the "Chronicles" trilogy.


Gold on the other hand, for all it's worth to us, is pretty, and that's about it, at least as far as a quasi-feudal society like Dragonlance would be concerned. Someone with an existing currency would not likely think to use gold unless the current methods of coinage were seriously resource prohibitive. It makes a handy backup currency for commerce at the city or nation scale, but theres like... 3 or 4 actual nations, counting the demihumans.

I agree with this. Gold becomes worthless after the Cataclysm strikes. When food and clothing are scarce, people are dropping dead from disease, brigands roam freely and Fistandantilus has risen from the grave to lead an army against the Dwarves, the last thing on your mind is "Have I got enough gold to make my wife a necklace for our anniversary?"

On the other hand, gold and silver is still valuable in "Dark Sun". Each city-state basically has a strong central government ruled by a tyrant. There are nobles and wealthy merchants who have slaves to do their bidding. In such a society, gold and silver, which have became scarce due to the ecological ruin of Athas, are highly sought after. Of course there is one treasure as valuable as, or more valuable than gold: water. Having a well or a cistern which you can use to draw drinking water and irrigate crops is very valuable, and many such locations are sought out by Clerics/Shamans* of Water, who try to guard them from Templars and bandits.

*In 2E Templars and Elemental Priests were considered Clerics and used the reals for 2E Specialty Priests. In 4E, Templar is a Theme using the Arcane Piower Source, with most Templars being Wizards or Warlocks with the Sorcerer King Pact, while 4E Elemental Priests are a Theme using the Primal Power Source, with Shamans, Wardens and Druids being likely Classes for Elemental Priests.

[Keltest]

Nope. There are rules for steel pieces, rules for converting gold piece prices in other AD&D materiel into steel pieces, and when Caramon and Tasslehoff traveled back in time to the period before the Cataclysm, they were arrested for vagrancy and sold into slavery, because they had no gold or silver on them, only worthless steel. Caramon and Tas even seem confused that gold is valuable, at least at first. (Raistlin, on the other hand, came prepared and packed gold for when he traveled back in time.)

The second book in the "Legends" trilogy takes place over a century after the Cataclysm, when Ansalon is in much worse shape than it is in the period of the War of the Lance. The real scarcity in that book is food, healing, remedies for diseases and leadership. Not weapons or armor, not steel, not gold. Food. Clothing. Magical healing. Lady Crysania tries to fill the void, but she only has so many spell slots, and Paladine isn't scheduled for a come back until the Disks of Mishakal are recovered in the "Chronicles" trilogy.

Something to consider though is that there was not a unified law-enforcement force anywhere. A steel sword to defend your farm or wagon or well would be nearly as important as the farm itself. And as we saw in the second Legends book, bandits and marauders were very common, precisely for the reason that its easier to kill a person and take ALL his food than give him some of your medicine for SOME of his food.

Plus, its not like everything immediately jumped from "post-apocalyptic" to "moderately functional and ordered feudal society" over night. Even if the most immediate concerns were logistical, weapons would become important before gold.

[Sir_Leorik]

Something to consider though is that there was not a unified law-enforcement force anywhere. A steel sword to defend your farm or wagon or well would be nearly as important as the farm itself. And as we saw in the second Legends book, bandits and marauders were very common, precisely for the reason that its easier to kill a person and take ALL his food than give him some of your medicine for SOME of his food.

Plus, its not like everything immediately jumped from "post-apocalyptic" to "moderately functional and ordered feudal society" over night. Even if the most immediate concerns were logistical, weapons would become important before gold.

That's a good point. For all that Athas is described as a "post-apocalyptic society", and as Evil as they are, the Sorcerer Kings do provide a large degree of stability within their city-states, which was very much absent from most of Ansalon following the Cataclysm. The main exceptions were Palanthas and Silvanost, which basically shut themselves away from the rest of the continent.

But that still doesn't explain how "steel weapons and armor are more valuable than a useless metal like gold" becomes "steel is so valuable that we should mint coins out the stuff!". Who was minting these coins? Could any blacksmith melt down a broken sword and pour the metal into a mold with his face on it? And what did the Gnomes of Mt. Nevermind do when they traveled to other Crystal Spheres, where gold and silver were the coin of the realm?

[Snails]

B) Bronze age bronze was not softer than early iron age iron.
" bronze is generally harder than wrought iron, with Vickers hardness of 60–258[7] vs. 30–80,[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze#History)

As the JustWantedToSay's nice linky points out, iron is much more widely available than the tin required to make good quality bronze. So even a mediocre and cheap iron weapon is better than the bronze sword you do not get to own.

[Vinyadan]

Using ingots as measures of value makes sense, because ingots are usually used to make other objects. But coins are usually intended to pass hands through many people. When you barter a cow for iron ingots, you don't intend to use the cow to pay for groceries. You intend to either milk the cow or slaughter it for meat (possibly as a sacrifice in some societies, which you then eat after ritually pouring blood on an altar). The reason for the development of currency was related to the development of cities and the concept of taxation. If a farmer is taxed a percentage of his crop, and is expected to bring the crop to the ruler, he has two choices: transform the crop into a less perishable state (grain alcohol, or pickling vegetables for example) or trading part of the crop for currency or for animals that can be transported on the hoof to the capital. As societies advance, trading through barter was relegated more and more to the lowest classes, who still might need currency from time to time for some purposes.

I agree on what you say, but the concept of cattle as sign for richness kept living in the words it generated. The Latin pecunia is a good example, and Gothic Faihu too: both words literally mean cattle, but also are used to refer to wealth. And then you get English fee, from the same root.
Cattle likely also had an important function in the development of a capitalist system. A contract would be made, where the owner gave his beasts for a certain time to another, who was to take care of them. After this time, the caretaker would get a part of what had been born during this time (or would just live off the products he got from the animals and give back all of the young cattle; I don't remember exactly, and my books are far away now.) It is a rather modern way of thinking. There's also the fact that some of the first gold ingots were shaped as bovines. It could have been merely decorative, but it likely had some other meanings.


Paying troops in iron doesn't make sense, unless the troops were expected to forge their own weapons (which makes me see the powergamers abusing the "Weaponsmith" Non-Weapon Proficiency back in 2E in a whole new light :smalltongue:) It might make sense if they are taking loot and booty and selling it to get coin.

I forgot: money in Sparta (the iron spits) were the State's property. I am not even sure the typical spartan warrior could legally use money, if not on exceptional situations and on the State's behalf. Which gives the money on the body of the evil spartan in 300 a much more radical meaning than what one would otherwise think. Sparta issued silver coins to pay for mercenaries during its last years of independence, and later issued bronze coins (but it wasn't the good old Sparta anymore).

A form of payment the State could always use was land. With a condition: in many cities, only citizens could possess land. And there is an inscription in Cyprus where a physician is stated to have been granted possession of land because he had cured the city's soldiers after a battle.


But we're not really discussing Sparta during the Bronze ages. We're discussing Palanthas, Qualinost, Solace and Pax Tharkas during the years following the Cataclysm!

That's absolutely right, but I don't know anything about them :smalltongue: And I really enjoy talking about ancient economies, because it's a field of which I only have a very superficial knowledge.

Anyway, to return no topic: I think Roy's armour will be burnt when they will be risking death by cold. It will make a very bright, warm and long-lasting flame, but it will emit poisonous gas, which will intoxicate the party and lead them out of the illusion they always were in since the goblin cleric hit them with a spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html) dun Dun DUN DUNNNN And we'll be back to Dungeon 1!

[Link]

As the JustWantedToSay's nice linky points out, iron is much more widely available than the tin required to make good quality bronze. So even a mediocre and cheap iron weapon is better than the bronze sword you do not get to own.

How did a thread about Roy's armor become a discussion about a metal that hasn't been used to make weapons in 2000 years?

[Keltest]

That's a good point. For all that Athas is described as a "post-apocalyptic society", and as Evil as they are, the Sorcerer Kings do provide a large degree of stability within their city-states, which was very much absent from most of Ansalon following the Cataclysm. The main exceptions were Palanthas and Silvanost, which basically shut themselves away from the rest of the continent.

But that still doesn't explain how "steel weapons and armor are more valuable than a useless metal like gold" becomes "steel is so valuable that we should mint coins out the stuff!". Who was minting these coins? Could any blacksmith melt down a broken sword and pour the metal into a mold with his face on it? And what did the Gnomes of Mt. Nevermind do when they traveled to other Crystal Spheres, where gold and silver were the coin of the realm?

Given that ive just about hit the limit for my knowledge on cultural evolution, I can only say that maybe something along the lines of "we've always done this, why change" and "people can be marvelously impractical."


and id imagine the gnomes did the same thing everyone else did: sigh that their currency is invalid (assuming that any two culture's gold coins will be compatible is stretching disbelief) then go home and get some gold.

[Sir_Leorik]

Cattle likely also had an important function in the development of a capitalist system. A contract would be made, where the owner gave his beasts for a certain time to another, who was to take care of them. After this time, the caretaker would get a part of what had been born during this time (or would just live off the products he got from the animals and give back all of the young cattle; I don't remember exactly, and my books are far away now.) It is a rather modern way of thinking. There's also the fact that some of the first gold ingots were shaped as bovines. It could have been merely decorative, but it likely had some other meanings.

Out of curiosity, which society was this? Europe in general? England?


I forgot: money in Sparta (the iron spits) were the State's property. I am not even sure the typical spartan warrior could legally use money, if not on exceptional situations and on the State's behalf. Which gives the money on the body of the evil spartan in 300 a much more radical meaning than what one would otherwise think. Sparta issued silver coins to pay for mercenaries during its last years of independence, and later issued bronze coins (but it wasn't the good old Sparta anymore).

A form of payment the State could always use was land. With a condition: in many cities, only citizens could possess land. And there is an inscription in Cyprus where a physician is stated to have been granted possession of land because he had cured the city's soldiers after a battle.

Okay, the Spartans just fell out of the running as a yardstick to compare to "Dragonlance". (Although maybe we can compare them to the Soviets? :smalltongue:)


That's absolutely right, but I don't know anything about them :smalltongue: And I really enjoy talking about ancient economies, because it's a field of which I only have a very superficial knowledge.

That's what Google's for! Looking up minutia about Dungeons & Dragons!

[Sir_Leorik]

Given that ive just about hit the limit for my knowledge on cultural evolution, I can only say that maybe something along the lines of "we've always done this, why change" and "people can be marvelously impractical."

The War of the Lance, described in the "Chronicles Trilogy", occurs roughly 350 years after the Cataclysm, where Paladine, Takhisis and the rest of the gods of Good, Evil and Neutrality, punished the King-Priest of Istar for his hubris by tossing a flaming asteroid onto Istar. The Cataclysm not only gouged a hole in the continent of Ansalon and killed millions, but it essentially ended any form of centralized government on Ansalon. Prior to the Cataclysm, the King-Priest and his Clerics, together with the Knights of Solamnia, were the central government of the continent, backed by the divine mandate of Paladine. Paladine chose to revoke said mandate in a rather spectacular way, and all of the gods withheld divine magic from Krynn for the next one hundred and fifty years. Basically life changed overnight, and not for the better.

Fast forward three hundred and fifty odd years. Takhisis is getting ready to break free of the Abyss and conquer Krynn with her army of Dragons, Draconians and Human soldiers. The Companions find the Disks of Mishakal, and restore Divine magic from the gods of Good and Neutrality. The forces of Good win the War of the Lance, and two years later Lord Soth is prevented from capturing Palanthas. Things are looking up for Milhouse Ansalon. So why are they still using steel coins? During the post-Cataclysm period it makes no sense because they need that steel to defend themselves. During the post-War of the Lance period it makes no sense because things are no longer dire.


and id imagine the gnomes did the same thing everyone else did: sigh that their currency is invalid (assuming that any two culture's gold coins will be compatible is stretching disbelief) then go home and get some gold.

You don't know them very well, do you? No, the Tinker Gnomes would try to invent an alchemcial process to turn steel into lead, so they could turn the lead into gold. In the process they would blow up three planets. :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

The War of the Lance, described in the "Chronicles Trilogy", occurs roughly 350 years after the Cataclysm, where Paladine, Takhisis and the rest of the gods of Good, Evil and Neutrality, punished the King-Priest of Istar for his hubris by tossing a flaming asteroid onto Istar. The Cataclysm not only gouged a hole in the continent of Ansalon and killed millions, but it essentially ended any form of centralized government on Ansalon. Prior to the Cataclysm, the King-Priest and his Clerics, together with the Knights of Solamnia, were the central government of the continent, backed by the divine mandate of Paladine. Paladine chose to revoke said mandate in a rather spectacular way, and all of the gods withheld divine magic from Krynn for the next one hundred and fifty years. Basically life changed overnight, and not for the better.

Fast forward three hundred and fifty odd years. Takhisis is getting ready to break free of the Abyss and conquer Krynn with her army of Dragons, Draconians and Human soldiers. The Companions find the Disks of Mishakal, and restore Divine magic from the gods of Good and Neutrality. The forces of Good win the War of the Lance, and two years later Lord Soth is prevented from capturing Palanthas. Things are looking up for Milhouse Ansalon. So why are they still using steel coins? During the post-Cataclysm period it makes no sense because they need that steel to defend themselves. During the post-War of the Lance period it makes no sense because things are no longer dire.

Because why not? I dunno, its not like people have ever exactly made perfect sense. Maybe changing it across the entire continent was just too much effort.

[Vinyadan]

Out of curiosity, which society was this? Europe in general? England?

Early Middle-East, but I don't know exactly which one. If you want more information, there is Heichelheim's Ancient Economic History, but it's quite old and I can't warrant on its accuracy by today's standards.

For example, I now have the doubt that the bovine ingots he referred to were the ox-hide ingots, which now are supposed to have had that shape because they were easier to carry. Yet, I think I remember chunks of precious metal with a nice bull's head on them, but Google isn't helping me now :smallfrown:

Anyway, here (http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/aes-signatum-ingot-with-bull-162570)is a significantly younger roman example.


Okay, the Spartans just fell out of the running as a yardstick to compare to "Dragonlance". (Although maybe we can compare them to the Soviets? :smalltongue:)

Well, they were really weird. I suppose permanent war economy will do that to people :smalltongue: it's impressive they lasted that long.

[brionl]

A bit heavier, definitely not softer, takes an edge well enough for most purposes (you don't *need* a razor's edge on a weapon or a cutting tool for most things, and for those applications where you did want it [which would be.. I don't know, surgeries, certain kitchen tools?] you could use a stone blade, which while not especially good for the stresses of combat could be chipped into excessively sharp edges.) It *was* better for combat uses. It was also more difficult to make than iron and harder to acquire; typical bronze was made from copper and tin, and you generally don't find copper and tin in the same places. Iron was the worse material, but it was good enough, and more importantly you could find it dang near everywhere. You didn't have to pay for large quantities of imported tin in order to make use of iron items.

There is a big difference between "better" and "more affordable". A Hyundai is more affordable than a BMW or Lexus. I think you'll find very few people who will argue that a Hyundai is a better car because of that.

The only reason the ancients used bronze weapons is that they were cheaper. You'll notice once we got iron working technology to the point where it was cheaper than bronze, it was only used in niche applications.

[DeliaP]

How did a thread about Roy's armor become a discussion about a metal that hasn't been used to make weapons in 2000 years?

Hi! Welcome to the Giant in the Playground forums!

To paraphrase the signature's of two forum veterans:

On a saner forum, you wouldn't need to ask such a question.

And sometimes the discussion gets so off topic it actually ends up back on topic.

[Link]

Hi! Welcome to the Giant in the Playground forums!

To paraphrase the signature's of two forum veterans:

On a saner forum, you wouldn't need to ask such a question.

And sometimes the discussion gets so off topic it actually ends up back on topic.

why, thank you! i have been lurking for a long time, though, and already knew that.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

In "Dark Sun" the answer to these questions is "Very little", "Yes", "The iron that's available is of good quality, and there is plenty of knowledge of iron working, but there's only one working iron mine in the world, so everyone makes do with wooden weapons (usually adorned with stone, obsidian or the bones or chitin of monsters) and leather, hide or chitin armor", and "There's only one mine, and Kalak forbade exporting it to other city-states (I'm not sure if Tithian, the king following Kalak's overthrow, kept this rule or allowed exports").

In "Dragonlance" the answers to all of those questions are "The Cataclysm, okay?"

...


In other words, Dark Sun is "we've put some thought into this", and Dragonlance is "because we say so, and we couldn't be bothered to come up with anything better." :smallwink:



Despite the similarities, no one in "Dark Sun" makes coins out of iron, unless their goal is to smuggle the iron into a city-state and forge a weapon there to murder someone. (Oh, that is a brilliant idea for an adventure! The PCs are hired to stop a Minstrel from murdering their client's relative, a wealthy merchant, but they don't know how the Minstrel is going to acquire the weapon to kill her! The Minstrel has been smuggling bags of iron coins into Nibenay via a group of shady Elves, and has hired a Dray to forge the coins into crossbow bolts!) It's only in "Dragonlance" that steel coins are used.

Like the idea for the scenario, mind if I borrow it? :smallwink:



Using ingots as measures of value makes sense, because ingots are usually used to make other objects. But coins are usually intended to pass hands through many people. When you barter a cow for iron ingots, you don't intend to use the cow to pay for groceries. You intend to either milk the cow or slaughter it for meat (possibly as a sacrifice in some societies, which you then eat after ritually pouring blood on an altar). The reason for the development of currency was related to the development of cities and the concept of taxation. If a farmer is taxed a percentage of his crop, and is expected to bring the crop to the ruler, he has two choices: transform the crop into a less perishable state (grain alcohol, or pickling vegetables for example) or trading part of the crop for currency or for animals that can be transported on the hoof to the capital. As societies advance, trading through barter was relegated more and more to the lowest classes, who still might need currency from time to time for some purposes.

Paying troops in iron doesn't make sense, unless the troops were expected to forge their own weapons (which makes me see the powergamers abusing the "Weaponsmith" Non-Weapon Proficiency back in 2E in a whole new light :smalltongue:) It might make sense if they are taking loot and booty and selling it to get coin.

Hmm, what if the rulers are worried that battlefield scavenging will give their troops a source of arms and armour that the rulers don't control, and they think that once the war is over, they'll rise up and overthrow them? Or the country's effectively bankrupt, but if the troops find out they're not getting paid, they'll revolt. In that case, wouldn't it make sense for the officers to order any captured war materiel broken up or melted down, stamped with some emblem, and used to pay the troops?

If it gets used as coin, then traders have a choice - accept it, or risk their neighbouring trader accepting it and putting them out of business, the rulers can eventually take it out of circulation via taxes (pay x in gold, or x-10% in steel), and to an extent, people's natural greed also comes in to play - how many people would choose to melt down their life's savings to make a sword to try and kill the king?



But we're not really discussing Sparta during the Bronze ages. We're discussing Palanthas, Qualinost, Solace and Pax Tharkas during the years following the Cataclysm! A typical Knight of Solmnia is decked out in Plate Armor and carries a steel longsword and shield or a steel greatsword. Qualinesti Elves wore the equivalent of Elven Chain (made out of the local Mithril knock-off) and wielded steel longswords and wooden shields. Knights of Takhisis were equipped roughly the same as Knights of Solamnia. Dwarves usually wore steel chainmail or banded mail, and wielded steel greataxes or warhammers. Caramon Majere wore steel chainmail and wielded a greatsword. Tika also wore steel chainmail, and wielded a longsword. And then there are the Tinker Gnomes of Mt. Nevermind. Do realize how much iron is used to construct the hamster wheel of a Giant Space Hamster? :smalltongue:

They knew how to forge steel weapons and armor, yet they're using steel to make coins?!? I still don't understand this.
As I said before, making coins is a very different process to making armour and weapons - you don't have to forge coins, all you really have to do is pour the metal into a mould, let it cool and open the mould up. Whilst making armour means you have to be able to forge it, and if that knowledge has been lost or is only available to a very few, then you'd only have access to any artefacts that survive, and the few bits you can make.

What makes a currency is what people decide will be their currency - be it gold, bitcoins, soft drink bottlecaps (Fallout 1, 3 and New Vegas), teeth (40k Orks), cups of water, a cheese sandwich or whatever. What makes a good currency is rarity and difficulty in obtaining (otherwise you get the same situation as at the end of Restaurant at the end of the Universe, with the Golgafrincham's deciding on the leaf as currency, and instantly suffering from insane hyper-inflation).



Gold on the other hand, for all it's worth to us, is pretty, and that's about it, at least as far as a quasi-feudal society like Dragonlance would be concerned. Someone with an existing currency would not likely think to use gold unless the current methods of coinage were seriously resource prohibitive. It makes a handy backup currency for commerce at the city or nation scale, but theres like... 3 or 4 actual nations, counting the demihumans.
Well, in the modern day, Gold is a very good conductor of electricity and heat, and it's biologically inert, which gives it some medical uses.

For coins, depending on the exact grades of metal used, iron and steel coins might even be preferable because it oxidises relatively quickly, and thus could potentially have laws that make passing rusted coins a criminal offence (preventing hoarding and potential economic warfare - hoard the coins to increase their value, then dump the lot into the economy to generate inflation, or keeping the currency in circulation, or simply ensuring that only a certain amount stays out there, or, if you use that to change the design every so often, minimising the time forgers have to copy the coinage and so on), whilst Gold doesn't tarnish appreciably, and could be valid currency for centuries.

Or maybe they value the basic hardness of iron and steel, and softer coins become worthless very quickly because the coinage is very harshly treated. Or precious metals are used in other places - maybe the local religion is based around gold as a devotional object, so no one dares to use it as coinage, and anyone who does is deemed a blasphemer or heretic.

[Sir_Leorik]

In other words, Dark Sun is "we've put some thought into this", and Dragonlance is "because we say so, and we couldn't be bothered to come up with anything better." :smallwink:

Pretty much. In "Dark Sun", the planet Athas was subject to an ecological apocalypse caused by the misuse of Arcane magic. Essentially 2-5% of the planet is currently inhabitable, with the rest being desert. Water and iron are both in short supply, with large scale battles fought over oases, and the sole iron mine that isn't tapped out being controlled by a single city-state. Most of the population are slaves, either to noblemen, or to the rulers, the Sorcerer-Kings. A lot of thought was put into figuring out how such a society could be feasible, while making sure that magic wasn't a go to solution for problems like dehydration, starvation or heat stroke.

"Dragonlance" came about because Tracy Hickman had an idea for a campaign were the PCs rode dragons into battle, and he pitched it to TSR at a time when management realized that they didn't have a product line that focused on dragons. The Cataclysm was an excuse to explain why there weren't any Clerics until the PCs find the Disks of Mishakal, and there's no real explanation about why gold was abandoned as a currency. Even the geographic changes brought about by the Cataclysm (such as the creation of the "Blood Sea of Istar" in the middle of the continent) don't seem to have been thought through as much as the distinctions between Dargonesti and Dimernesti Elves. (Dargonest and Dimernesti are two different types of Aquatic Elves.)


Like the idea for the scenario, mind if I borrow it? :smallwink:

Be my guest, but I like the idea of using it in "Dark Sun" because metal weapons are something that would draw attention to an assassin, given how rare iron is.


Hmm, what if the rulers are worried that battlefield scavenging will give their troops a source of arms and armour that the rulers don't control, and they think that once the war is over, they'll rise up and overthrow them? Or the country's effectively bankrupt, but if the troops find out they're not getting paid, they'll revolt. In that case, wouldn't it make sense for the officers to order any captured war materiel broken up or melted down, stamped with some emblem, and used to pay the troops?

The rulers could always order their smiths to beat the swords into plowshares and the spears into pruning hooks. :smallwink:


What makes a currency is what people decide will be their currency - be it gold, bitcoins, soft drink bottlecaps (Fallout 1, 3 and New Vegas), teeth (40k Orks), cups of water, a cheese sandwich or whatever. What makes a good currency is rarity and difficulty in obtaining (otherwise you get the same situation as at the end of Restaurant at the end of the Universe, with the Golgafrincham's deciding on the leaf as currency, and instantly suffering from insane hyper-inflation).

In most D&D games there seems to be a single gold standard, with silver tossed in for fun. All gold pieces are accepted everywhere. Part of that is meant for a DM's convenience, since no one wants to calculate money changer's fees if they don't have to. But it would be best if PCs coming back from an adventure with lots of gold would need to spend their money carefully, to avoid creating hyper-inflation (and devaluing their own treasure!). If a DM does introduce inflation to his campaign, he should either provide the PCs with treasure hoards that contain gems, objects d'art, electrum coins (which aren't acceptable as currency, but are valued by coin collectors) and even mundane trade goods, or allow the PCs to run into a Mercane, who is willing to sell the PCs magical items, and who will be spending the gold in the City of Brass, Sigil or the Rock of Bral, and thus won't cause the local economy to crash. Or the PCs could decide to go into the moneylending business, lending money to the local baron, or even the king himself. And as powerful adventurers they can make sure the king doesn't decide to "forget" to repay the loan. :smallbiggrin:

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Pretty much. In "Dark Sun", the planet Athas was subject to an ecological apocalypse caused by the misuse of Arcane magic. Essentially 2-5% of the planet is currently inhabitable, with the rest being desert. Water and iron are both in short supply, with large scale battles fought over oases, and the sole iron mine that isn't tapped out being controlled by a single city-state. Most of the population are slaves, either to noblemen, or to the rulers, the Sorcerer-Kings. A lot of thought was put into figuring out how such a society could be feasible, while making sure that magic wasn't a go to solution for problems like dehydration, starvation or heat stroke.

"Dragonlance" came about because Tracy Hickman had an idea for a campaign were the PCs rode dragons into battle, and he pitched it to TSR at a time when management realized that they didn't have a product line that focused on dragons. The Cataclysm was an excuse to explain why there weren't any Clerics until the PCs find the Disks of Mishakal, and there's no real explanation about why gold was abandoned as a currency. Even the geographic changes brought about by the Cataclysm (such as the creation of the "Blood Sea of Istar" in the middle of the continent) don't seem to have been thought through as much as the distinctions between Dargonesti and Dimernesti Elves. (Dargonest and Dimernesti are two different types of Aquatic Elves.)

Oh yes, Dark Sun, a carefully worked out sociological, political and economic example of a post-apocalyptic society.

Dragonlance, well, erm, hey look, Dragons. Dragons that you can ride. Come on everyone, let's all look at the Dragons.



The rulers could always order their smiths to beat the swords into plowshares and the spears into pruning hooks. :smallwink:

And, even then, they could still be used as weapons - nunchaku supposedly originated as rice flails for example, plus there's the old gothic horror mob standbys of scythes and pitchforks.

And given some of the fantasy races and magic that's potentially available, a plough might be considered an offensive weapon.

Short of being fired from a sling, a roll of coins in the fist, or really, really sharpening the edges and turning it into a shuriken, a coin's not that dangerous a weapon.



In most D&D games there seems to be a single gold standard, with silver tossed in for fun. All gold pieces are accepted everywhere. Part of that is meant for a DM's convenience, since no one wants to calculate money changer's fees if they don't have to. But it would be best if PCs coming back from an adventure with lots of gold would need to spend their money carefully, to avoid creating hyper-inflation (and devaluing their own treasure!). If a DM does introduce inflation to his campaign, he should either provide the PCs with treasure hoards that contain gems, objects d'art, electrum coins (which aren't acceptable as currency, but are valued by coin collectors) and even mundane trade goods, or allow the PCs to run into a Mercane, who is willing to sell the PCs magical items, and who will be spending the gold in the City of Brass, Sigil or the Rock of Bral, and thus won't cause the local economy to crash. Or the PCs could decide to go into the moneylending business, lending money to the local baron, or even the king himself. And as powerful adventurers they can make sure the king doesn't decide to "forget" to repay the loan. :smallbiggrin:
Well, most D&D games take place in a single country on a standard, medieval-ish, pseudo-european world where the player character races are civilised, Orcs, Goblins etc are nothing more than the barbarians at the gates with most of the psychology of the Terminator (can't be bargained with, can't be reasoned with...), and any other lands visited are likely unclaimed island chains covered in primitives living in the ruins of an ancient civilisation, and/or dinosaurs (or that's the campaign world, a Cortez vs Aztecs in Jurassic Park type affair), and other campaign worlds, whether it's Oriental (which had money exchange rules), Arabian flavoured (a few modules but nothing more IIRC), Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Spelljammer or whatever are a lot, lot rarer, maybe even to the point where a lot of gamers might have played at most one, once. Personally, I was in a group that did get set up to play Dark Sun back when I was at University, however the guy that was going to run it never actually got around to even starting the first adventure, and sadly, that's the closest I've ever come to a non-traditional campaign world.

Kind of makes me want to do a Coruscant/Ravnica-esque, renaissance era world-city, with all the different intelligent races, PC and "monster", filling niches in the city and trying to push their agendas to advance themselves over everyone else, with Druids as both the farmers, growing the cities crops on the rooftops, in underground caverns via light spells, and in the few open spaces around, and the antagonists, with the more militant ones deliberately destroying buildings in their attempt to return the world to nature (and who knows, maybe they're right).

I do agree on the economic aspects - I've been looking through the 1st edition PHB recently (we're going old-school in a couple of weeks time :smallbiggrin:), and it does reference the Alaskan gold-rush and the inflation. But at the end of the day, it comes down to how much work the DM's willing to do, and to an extent, how much the players are willing to do to help him - if one says to the DM something like "ok, I've got my share of the dragon hoard, so I'm going to look for a money lender who'll give me a decent interest rate on most of it - maybe that guy we helped a couple of adventures back, he seemed trustworthy, then use the rest to buy a small property in the capital city, say something with a couple of floors, enough bedrooms that the party can use it as a short term base ahead of an adventure, a cellar where I can store wine and have a hidden room I can use as a secure vault and a small amount of grounds with a wall, do you want to design it, or can I and just get you to approve it? - and use the interest to pay a steward to look after the house for me, especially while I'm off adventuring, and anything left over will be donated to the local orphanage, and the spare healing potions will go to the local hospital...", or ask what, if anything, the local mark-up will be at the village store and blacksmiths, and work out the cost themselves rather than sitting there like stuffed toys waiting for the DM to say what their brand new 10' pole costs and then complaining that it doesn't say that in the PHB, it makes the DM's job a lot easier IMO.

[The Smallest]

Roy's armor appears to be a breast plate of some sort, and based on his fighting style, its likely magical. I wouldn't say its impossible for him to get an upgrade, especially in the dwarven lands, but anything good enough for him to be using at his level is going to be difficult to replace without sacrificing in some area (like dex bonus)

Also. Roy will likely not be giving up his current look before the story arc is over.

[Sir_Leorik]

And, even then, they could still be used as weapons - nunchaku supposedly originated as rice flails for example, plus there's the old gothic horror mob standbys of scythes and pitchforks.

And the torches! You can't leave out the torches! What would the standard peasant mob storming the Mad Scientist/Vampire Lord/Cursed Monastery be without some good old torches! Ral Partha even made a set of minis for TSR's "Ravenloft" setting of a peasant mob, with one mini toting a pitchfork, two toting torches, and a third with a constable's hat!


Well, most D&D games take place in a single country on a standard, medieval-ish, pseudo-european world where the player character races are civilised, Orcs, Goblins etc are nothing more than the barbarians at the gates with most of the psychology of the Terminator (can't be bargained with, can't be reasoned with...), and any other lands visited are likely unclaimed island chains covered in primitives living in the ruins of an ancient civilisation, and/or dinosaurs (or that's the campaign world, a Cortez vs Aztecs in Jurassic Park type affair), and other campaign worlds, whether it's Oriental (which had money exchange rules), Arabian flavoured (a few modules but nothing more IIRC), Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Spelljammer or whatever are a lot, lot rarer, maybe even to the point where a lot of gamers might have played at most one, once. Personally, I was in a group that did get set up to play Dark Sun back when I was at University, however the guy that was going to run it never actually got around to even starting the first adventure, and sadly, that's the closest I've ever come to a non-traditional campaign world.

Strangely enough, of the published campaign settings from TSR and WotC, the "Blackmoor", "World of Greyhawk" and "Forgotten Realms" settings were much more diverse than many gamers realize. It's really the "Known World/Mystara" campaign setting that conforms to that stereotype, with "Ravenloft", "Dark Sun", "Planescape", "Eberron" and "Spelljammer" taking a sledgehammer to the stereotype. :smallbiggrin:


I do agree on the economic aspects - I've been looking through the 1st edition PHB recently (we're going old-school in a couple of weeks time :smallbiggrin:), and it does reference the Alaskan gold-rush and the inflation. But at the end of the day, it comes down to how much work the DM's willing to do, and to an extent, how much the players are willing to do to help him - if one says to the DM something like "ok, I've got my share of the dragon hoard, so I'm going to look for a money lender who'll give me a decent interest rate on most of it - maybe that guy we helped a couple of adventures back, he seemed trustworthy, then use the rest to buy a small property in the capital city, say something with a couple of floors, enough bedrooms that the party can use it as a short term base ahead of an adventure, a cellar where I can store wine and have a hidden room I can use as a secure vault and a small amount of grounds with a wall, do you want to design it, or can I and just get you to approve it? - and use the interest to pay a steward to look after the house for me, especially while I'm off adventuring, and anything left over will be donated to the local orphanage, and the spare healing potions will go to the local hospital...", or ask what, if anything, the local mark-up will be at the village store and blacksmiths, and work out the cost themselves rather than sitting there like stuffed toys waiting for the DM to say what their brand new 10' pole costs and then complaining that it doesn't say that in the PHB, it makes the DM's job a lot easier IMO.

As much as I enjoy the concept, the main problem with this approach is that while it is very realistic (especially if the PCs are "stimulat[ing] the crap out of th[e] economy" to quote Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html)), it gets really tedious, especially if taken too far. If given a choice between a fast and loose economy and everyone having fun, or a detailed economic system that is as fun as filing income tax returns, I'd prefer to dump the verisimilitude and keep the fun. (The best solution would be to have verisimilitude and fun agree to meet each other half way. :smallwink:)