Do we have nine sides now?

[Plactus]

The last three comics have revealed a group forming to take down Tarquin and hinted that Bozzok may not be out of the fight yet. With that, we have the best chance of defining the demon roach's nine sides yet:

• The Order of the Stick (Roy, Haley, Elan, Durkon, Vaarsuvius, and Belkar) and allies (Celia, Eugene, maybe Julio).
• The Sapphire Guard (Hinjo, Lien, O-Chul) and other Azurites.
• Xykon.
• Redcloak, The Dark One, and other goblins.
• The Monster in the Darkness.
• Linear Guild (mostly defunct with Nale, Zz'dtri, and possibly Thog dead, but they were active since the nine sides comment).
• IFCC and employees (Qarr, Sabine).
• Tarquin, his allies (Miron, Laurin, Jacinda, shoulder pad guy; I'm going to put Kilkil here for lack of a better place), and their puppets (Empress of Blood, Weeping King, Queen Schvitzer).
• The alliance of Tarquin's enemies (Amun-Zora, Ian and Geoff, Gannji and Enor).
• Bozzok and whatever portion of the Thieves' Guild would follow him on a crusade against Haley (Crystal, certainly, if she's been raised).

Yeah, that's ten. Given that you could argue some should be combined, or shouldn't be listed, it seems best to go over. (And the roach did say, "at least nine" [emphasis mine].)

On the other hand, there's the possibility of more sides lurking out there: Serini, the Snarl, the gods. Or maybe the roach was counting the Draketooths, as that was pre-familicide.

Any other thoughts?

[Keltest]

What are you defining as a "side"? Because it seems like you have at least a couple there who have no immediate goals in relation to the overall direction of the plot (IE the Gates and Snarl)

[Plactus]

What are you defining as a "side"? Because it seems like you have at least a couple there who have no immediate goals in relation to the overall direction of the plot (IE the Gates and Snarl)

What I ultimately decided was that each of those groups could be involved in the battle for the last gate, even if they don't care about the gate themselves. The most likely not to be are Tarquin (refocusing on his plans for the Western Continent) and thus Team Anti-Tarquin (if Tarquin doesn't go north, they'd have no reason to), and Bozzok. (And the Linear Guild, just because they're out of it for now, although I'm guessing Sabine at least still has a role to play.)

[oppyu]

It would be interesting to see the Thieves Guild come play spoiler with all the other big teams. At least level wise, Bozzok has to be one of the most powerful rogues in the world (four levels above Haley, and I think she was roughly 13-15 at the time), and Crystal's been levelling up with Haley.

[Keltest]

It would be interesting to see the Thieves Guild come play spoiler with all the other big teams. At least level wise, Bozzok has to be one of the most powerful rogues in the world (four levels above Haley, and I think she was roughly 13-15 at the time), and Crystal's been levelling up with Haley.

Crystal is dead, remember? Haley killed her.

[oppyu]

Crystal is dead, remember? Haley killed her.
True, but there's at least a decent possibility Bozzok rezzed his high-level, very loyal head thug.

[Keltest]

True, but there's at least a decent possibility Bozzok rezzed his high-level, very loyal head thug.

Enough emphasis was given to the deed that I doubt she would be coming back.

[oppyu]

Enough emphasis was given to the deed that I doubt she would be coming back.
Maybe. I still don't see any in-universe reason Bozzok wouldn't have her raised, aside from a critical shortage of decently-levelled clerics or it turning out that Bozzok had been trying to get rid of Crystal anyway.

[137beth]

Maybe. I still don't see any in-universe reason Bozzok wouldn't have her raised, aside from a critical shortage of decently-levelled clerics or it turning out that Bozzok had been trying to get rid of Crystal anyway.

Or the large loss of funds spent raising everyone else (which they expected to pay for with Haley's money, which Haley kept herself).

[oppyu]

Or the large loss of funds spent raising everyone else (which they expected to pay for with Haley's money, which Haley kept herself).
Hmm, if only there were some way for a Thieves Guild to raise money. :smallwink:

[zimmerwald1915]

(four levels above Haley, and I think she was roughly 13-15 at the time)
Haley obliquely claims to have Improved Precise Shot, which because it requires BAB 11+ requires Haley, as a single-class Rogue, to be level 15 in order to take, in strip 615. Bozzok sneak attacks her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) six strips before that. Unless Haley leveled up twice off-panel in the space of six strips, that puts Bozzok at at least Rogue 19. Haley and Belkar, however, were able to take him fairly easily on his own in between strips 618 and 619 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html), which suggests he's certainly not in Tarquin's league as a combatant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html). I'd be very comfortable calling Bozzok Rogue 19-20, which is functionally the same as saying "Rogue 19," since Rogue 20 is a dead level that only advances HP, BAB, and skills.

[Opperhapsen]

Why are we acting like Bozzok and the thieves guild are a credible threat?
They were SPARED by Belkar and Haley, just imagine what would happen to them had V and Durkon been around too.

They weren't even a credible threat to Belkar alone!

[Porthos]

Why are we acting like Bozzok and the thieves guild are a credible threat?

Well, with the Linear Guild decimated, there is a palpable lack of d-list fodder running around right now. :smalltongue:

[Anarion]

Haley obliquely claims to have Improved Precise Shot, which because it requires BAB 11+ requires Haley, as a single-class Rogue, to be level 15 in order to take, in strip 615. Bozzok sneak attacks her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) six strips before that. Unless Haley leveled up twice off-panel in the space of six strips, that puts Bozzok at at least Rogue 19. Haley and Belkar, however, were able to take him fairly easily on his own in between strips 618 and 619 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html), which suggests he's certainly not in Tarquin's league as a combatant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html). I'd be very comfortable calling Bozzok Rogue 19-20, which is functionally the same as saying "Rogue 19," since Rogue 20 is a dead level that only advances HP, BAB, and skills.

Yep, this analysis is spot-on. I vaguely recall going over the numbers at the time and figuring that Belkar probably has a defensive fighting feat of some kind (or a really good ring of protection that never gets mentioned, or both).

Rogue 19 is an interesting level because so much of its power is tied up in being able to sneak attack, which is in turn related to positioning and skill selection. So, the fact that Bozzok alone was easily crushed by Belkar and Haley doesn't really tell the whole story. Most of his power is probably concentrated in out of combat abilities and his network, with his combat strength being heavily dependent on the presence of allies to enable him. So, I find him to be an entirely credible threat, especially when he's the one planning things out in advance.

Of the sides listed, I think that only Xykon and his associates in Redcloak and the Monster in the Darkness are truly capable of murdering everyone in a straight up fight. Tarquin and his allies have been shown to be superior to the Order of the Stick, but not vastly superior the way that Xykon appears, so they need close to equal numbers or a tactical advantage to be able to win, imo. The IFCC doesn't act directly, and the Linear Guild has always been a little bit weaker than the Order, so neither of those can just crush everyone. And the Thieves Guild is full of people who would get destroyed by Roy's greatsword in a couple rounds, but who are capable of sowing chaos and murdering someone that they catch unawares.

[David Argall]

Why are we acting like Bozzok and the thieves guild are a credible threat?
They were SPARED by Belkar and Haley, just imagine what would happen to them had V and Durkon been around too.

They weren't even a credible threat to Belkar alone!
They were a more than credible threat to Haley. So if we are going to have a scene swarming with foes, Bozzok and friend can fit in quite well to harass her.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yep, this analysis is spot-on. I vaguely recall going over the numbers at the time and figuring that Belkar probably has a defensive fighting feat of some kind (or a really good ring of protection that never gets mentioned, or both).
The latest speculation on Belkar's feats gives Belkar Dodge and Mobility, but doesn't leave any slots open for additional feats. In some bonus strip somewhere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14705939&postcount=142) Belkar mentions that he threw away the last ring of protection +1 the Order found because it just didn't do anything worthwhile for him. That does suggest he has some sort of better deflection bonus.


Rogue 19 is an interesting level because so much of its power is tied up in being able to sneak attack, which is in turn related to positioning and skill selection. So, the fact that Bozzok alone was easily crushed by Belkar and Haley doesn't really tell the whole story. Most of his power is probably concentrated in out of combat abilities and his network, with his combat strength being heavily dependent on the presence of allies to enable him. So, I find him to be an entirely credible threat, especially when he's the one planning things out in advance.
Agreed 100%. Bozzok's strengths lie in his international reach and list of contacts, not in his combat ability alone - though if given the right tactical setup, he's deadly enough. I'd imagine that his list of contacts includes people in Cliffport, the "where" countries, and the Gobbotopia regime.

[oppyu]

Put Bozzok in a straight fight against a moderately high level rogue and a melee ranger, and he's not going to do too well. But put him directly behind Redcloak as he's casting at someone else or otherwise distracted... I could see that going poorly for Redcloak.

[Opperhapsen]

They were a more than credible threat to Haley. So if we are going to have a scene swarming with foes, Bozzok and friend can fit in quite well to harass her.

The entire organization was a threat to one person, whoopty doo.
The moment Belkar woke up they got their asses handed to them so thoroughly that Belkar and Haley were annoyed that Celia negotiated a peace.
Since then the Order has only grown stronger and has gotten new equipment and allies that just makes the power gap larger.

From no perspective is the Thieves guild capable of doing anything to harm them now.
The worst they could do is nick their stuff.

[DeliaP]

<snip>

• The alliance of Tarquin's enemies (Amun-Zora, Ian and Geoff, Gannji and Enor).
<snip>

On the other hand, there's the possibility of more sides lurking out there: Serini, the Snarl, the gods. Or maybe the roach was counting the Draketooths, as that was pre-familicide.

Any other thoughts?

The anti-Tarquin alliance didn't exist at the time, even remotely. And I think Serini and the Draketooths, as the last of the Scribbles, would have been included by the roaches.

[DeliaP]

Put Bozzok in a straight fight against a moderately high level rogue and a melee ranger, and he's not going to do too well. But put him directly behind Redcloak

or V?


as he's casting at someone else or otherwise distracted... I could see that going poorly for Redcloak.

or V?? :smalleek:

[Anarion]

The entire organization was a threat to one person, whoopty doo.
The moment Belkar woke up they got their asses handed to them so thoroughly that Belkar and Haley were annoyed that Celia negotiated a peace.
Since then the Order has only grown stronger and has gotten new equipment and allies that just makes the power gap larger.

From no perspective is the Thieves guild capable of doing anything to harm them now.
The worst they could do is nick their stuff.

To repeat myself, this misunderstands the kind of power that a thieves guild wields. If the entire Order of the Stick flew to Graysky City right now, they could easily murder the entire thieves guild. But they're busy saving the world while Bozzok has the opportunity to plan. Bozzok and his thieves have the ability to be very dangerous if they set things up favorably for themselves.

Also, if you think that "nicking their stuff" wouldn't be bad, you should consider more study of the D&D rules. If all the thieves guild did was "nick their stuff" that alone would be devastating for the Order, as all the fighters are optimized for specific weapons and V needs his spellbook to function. Only Durkon and Elan are okay without their equipment, and even they would be really vulnerable (plus Durkon's sunlight protection might be staff only atm).

[Mike Havran]

Redcloak mentioned "this conflict" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0942.html), so unless he was breaking the fourth wall (possible), he meant the Gate quest. The sides that have nothing to do with the gates (Anti Tarquin League, Bozzok) should be probably excluded. I fully expect one more side to be revealed in the next book.

[Rodin]

I just don't foresee the Thieves' Guild going to the North Pole solely for revenge on one person. Especially when there's likely to be all kinds of unpredictable craziness going on (because why else would a high level Rogue go to the North Pole?) and Bozzok has no idea what that might be.

Crystal might be crazy enough, but Bozzok seems like a pretty practical guy who wouldn't be willing to uproot the Thieves' Guild for petty vengeance. Especially since the Thieves' Guild isn't the only game in town.

[Anarion]

I just don't foresee the Thieves' Guild going to the North Pole solely for revenge on one person. Especially when there's likely to be all kinds of unpredictable craziness going on (because why else would a high level Rogue go to the North Pole?) and Bozzok has no idea what that might be.

Crystal might be crazy enough, but Bozzok seems like a pretty practical guy who wouldn't be willing to uproot the Thieves' Guild for petty vengeance. Especially since the Thieves' Guild isn't the only game in town.

He just told Geoff to forget about Ian when he heard news about Haley and he got onscreen time discussing his interest in Haley. After that foreshadowing, I'd be surprised if the thieves guild doesn't do something to go after her.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Hmm, if only there were some way for a Thieves Guild to raise money. :smallwink:
Well, on that count, the Order's saved them about 800gp/month by getting Ian out of the prison. :smallwink:


Why are we acting like Bozzok and the thieves guild are a credible threat?
They were SPARED by Belkar and Haley, just imagine what would happen to them had V and Durkon been around too.

They weren't even a credible threat to Belkar alone!
In a stand-up fight, you're right, they weren't a threat.

Who says Bozzok and the Thieves Guild vs the Order: Round 2 will be a stand-up fight?

Maybe a team up with Tarquin? Perhaps Tarquin decides Haley is the root cause of Elan's unwillingness to accept his proper role in Tarquin's legend, gets Crystal resurrected (as Haley's personal nemesis), and arranges for them to follow the Mechane north (via those Hippogriffs that were mentioned in#814)?

[Sir_Leorik]

Why are we acting like Bozzok and the thieves guild are a credible threat?
They were SPARED by Belkar and Haley, just imagine what would happen to them had V and Durkon been around too.

They weren't even a credible threat to Belkar alone!

We're not discussing "credible threats", we're discussing "sides in this conflict". And the sides in this conflict can include high level mebers and low level members in their ranks. The IFCC directors are Archfiends, probably somewhere around CR 20; Sabine is a Succubus Rogue (with an LA holding back her class levels); and Qarr is an Imp with a few levels in Sorcerer. Qarr is much weaker than Sabine (let alone the IFCC Directors) but he has a role to play in their scheme for the Gate.


Redcloak mentioned "this conflict" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0942.html), so unless he was breaking the fourth wall (possible), he meant the Gate quest. The sides that have nothing to do with the gates (Anti Tarquin League, Bozzok) should be probably excluded. I fully expect one more side to be revealed in the next book.

Here's my list:


Order of the Stick
Xykon
Redcloak and the Dark One
Linear Guild (destroyed)
Team Tarquin
The Greysky City Thieves' Guild
The Sapphire Guard
The IFCC
????


The Thieves' Guild may have no idea of the power of the Gate, but they're antagonists nonetheless, and Bozzok will send Crystal (and others) to Kraagor's Tomb to get revenge on Haley.


I just don't foresee the Thieves' Guild going to the North Pole solely for revenge on one person. Especially when there's likely to be all kinds of unpredictable craziness going on (because why else would a high level Rogue go to the North Pole?) and Bozzok has no idea what that might be.

Crystal might be crazy enough, but Bozzok seems like a pretty practical guy who wouldn't be willing to uproot the Thieves' Guild for petty vengeance. Especially since the Thieves' Guild isn't the only game in town.

Bozzok is not the practical member of the Greysky City Thieves' Guild. That would be Hank. Bozzok wants revenge, and he definitely wants to make an example of Haley. As far as Hank is concerned, it's only been a few weeks since Haley left town, and if he wants to remind her of her obligations, he'll Send to her (and possibly to Celia, her attorney, who will be horrified to learn that Haley reneged on the deal).

[Mike Havran]

Here's my list:


Order of the Stick
Xykon
Redcloak and the Dark One
Linear Guild (destroyed)
Team Tarquin
The Greysky City Thieves' Guild
The Sapphire Guard
The IFCC
????


The Thieves' Guild may have no idea of the power of the Gate, but they're antagonists nonetheless, and Bozzok will send Crystal (and others) to Kraagor's Tomb to get revenge on Haley.My list is basically the same, only the Thieves' Guild is replaced by the Order of the Scribble. They and their defences played an important role in the affair (and Serini might still be alive. And I have no doubt Redcloak himself considers them a side). Bozzok on the other hand, might consider Haley a threat but I doubt he'll send an assasination squad, especially since Haley managed to slip away from them twice, in much less favourable (for her) environment.

[zimmerwald1915]

My list is basically the same, only the Thieves' Guild is replaced by the Order of the Scribble. They and their defences played an important role in the affair (and Serini might still be alive. And I have no doubt Redcloak himself considers them a side). Bozzok on the other hand, might consider Haley a threat but I doubt he'll send an assasination squad, especially since Haley managed to slip away from them twice, in much less favourable (for her) environment.
I'd imagine each Scribbler, and their successors/defenses if applicable, should count as a separate side.

Here's my current list of sides, with leading individuals, subordinates, and, if applicable, the broad masses of a side sharing a line and allied/quasi-allied sides sharing a color, though this does not imply a close relationship between all members of an alliance (i.e., the Order and the elves have no close relationship, but both are allied with the Sapphire Guard). Sides are listed in order of their introduction or revelation as a side.

Definitions:
1. A "side" is a character or group of characters that at some point attempted to prevent another character or group of characters from gaining control over a Gate.
2. A "Gate" is a rift in the fabric of reality that has been sealed and had its edges magically reinforced by Lirian and Dorukan. Rifts whose reinforcements and seals have since failed are still Gates.
3. An "alliance" is a close working relationship between two or more sides that extends to cooperation in preventing another side from gaining control over a Gate. A "quasi-alliance" is a relationship between two or more sides or two or more individuals on different sides that may include communication about the state of the Gates.

Order of the Stick
Xykon
The Dark One/goblinoids
Lirian/Lirian's Glade/Elven Command
Dorukan
Soon/Sapphire Guard/Azure City Resistance
Girard/Draketooth Clan
Serini1
Directors/IFCC/Linear Guild
New Western Order
Bozzok/Greysky Thieves Guild2

Where all parties on a line are crossed out, I consider a side extinguished. So by this count there are currently nine sides, of which seven were introduced as sides and of which all nine3 were stated to exist by the time of the Demon Roach's comment. Personally, I think "nine" shouldn't be taken too precisely, and is basically an arbitrarily large number that can be exceeded.

1I find it difficult to imagine that Serini does not have active subordinates and/or successors that could be considered characters, which might include the Dwarves, the more intelligent among the monster guardians (i.e., creatures like the MitD, if they're present, but not the rocs or purple worms), or some hitherto unknown third party.
2The Thieves' Guild might be considered an incipient or quasi-side, in that they plan to prevent the Order from doing whatever they plan to do at the North Pole even though the Thieves' Guild currently knows nothing of the Gates.
3Tarquin and his army, though not the rest of the NWO, were said to exist in strip 50.

[Vinsfeld]

My list is basically the same, only the Thieves' Guild is replaced by the Order of the Scribble. They and their defences played an important role in the affair (and Serini might still be alive. And I have no doubt Redcloak himself considers them a side). Bozzok on the other hand, might consider Haley a threat but I doubt he'll send an assasination squad, especially since Haley managed to slip away from them twice, in much less favourable (for her) environment.

I agree. Soon's ghost almost killed Xykon back in Azure City. So the Order of the Scribble should be counted as one side, IMO, unless something in the comic says otherwise.

[Sir_Leorik]

I agree. Soon's ghost almost killed Xykon back in Azure City. So the Order of the Scribble should be counted as one side, IMO, unless something in the comic says otherwise.

Soon Kim was the founder of the Sapphire Guard, which I counted as a side. At the time that the Demon Roaches let slip about the nine sides, Lirian and Dorukan were no longer active, but the Draketooths were. But for all intents and purposes they were eliminated before they were introduced.

I have no objection to listing the Linear Guild as pawns of the IFCC Directors. Nale may have been trying to secure the Gate himself, but he was pretty much unknowingly acting in the IFCC's interests.

I wouldn't consider Serini to be a side until I know for certain that she's active.

[zimmerwald1915]

I wouldn't consider Serini to be a side until I know for certain that she's active.
She did at one time devote herself to insuring that no character or group of characters besides herself exercised control over Kraagor's Gate. That's enough to be a side, at least to me. If she's no longer active, and has no identifiable successors (a scenario that is difficult to imagine in its entirety, since her whole defensive plan, like Girard's and Soon's, revolved around recruiting subordinates) then she's an extinguished side.

[Anarion]

She did at one time devote herself to insuring that no character or group of characters besides herself exercised control over Kraagor's Gate. That's enough to be a side, at least to me. If she's no longer active, and has no identifiable successors (a scenario that is difficult to imagine in its entirety, since her whole defensive plan, like Girard's and Soon's, revolved around recruiting subordinates) then she's an extinguished side.

I think it would be better to say that her name is being used to represent an as yet unknown side. Sereni herself is highly likely to be dead and her wanderlust means that she likely did not have personal followers. Instead, there is likely to be some side near Kraagor's gate lead by one or more people who have knowledge originally imparted to them by Serini.

[DeliaP]

I agree. Soon's ghost almost killed Xykon back in Azure City. So the Order of the Scribble should be counted as one side, IMO, unless something in the comic says otherwise.

I get the argument, but for me I just can't buy treating (even posthumously) Girard and Draketooth Clan as the same side as Soon Kim and the Sapphire Guard. It hurts my brain to think that.



<snip>
Soon/Sapphire Guard/Azure City Resistance
<snip>
Where all parties on a line are crossed out, I consider a side extinguished.
<snip>

Broadly in agreement but a slight nitpick about the Azurites... I think the whole side needs to be called the Azurites, because:

The Sapphire Guards, as an entity, ceased to exist at the destruction of Soon's gate. The fact that Hinjo, Lien, O-Chul and Thanh remained alive and active is as much about their nature as paladins, than the specific membership of an order. Indeed, Hinjo decided that, as Soon's gate had fallen, he was no longer even bound by Soon's oath of non-interference.

On the other hand, if we're going talk survivors, there is a surviving member of the Azurite Resistance, Niu, and I am sure will still be active and will be seen again.

We also need to include:

[color="red"]Shojo[color]

who, for all his faults was trying to protect the gates, and Daigo and Kazumi, who may see a return.

(Yes, pure nitpicking. Sorry!)

[Gift Jeraff]

1. The Good Guys (possibly split into OOTS and Sapphire Guard)
2. Xykon
3. Goblinoids
4. Linear Guild
5. IFCC
6. Tarquin
7-9. ??? (I'm guessing 1-2 "new" sides like the elves or Serini, plus 1-2 splits from 1 of the above sides)

That the Linear Guild was being manipulated by the IFCC is irrelevant. Nale's intentions with the Gates were completely different from theirs. Whether he could've actually done anything after capturing the Gate also doesn't matter; he was opposing all other sides he knew of, and would've opposed the IFCC if he knew what was going on.

Whether a side existed at the time of the roach's comment also shouldn't matter. It was a fourth wall-breaking tease using knowledge only the author had, including the future of the story.

The Draketooth Clan may have also been counted, since even post-humously the defenses they set up indiscriminately hindered all other sides from getting to the Gate.

[ChristianSt]

Lirian/Lirian's Glade/Elven Command

I don't think that is really the same side. Have we any indication that Lirian has anything to do with the Elven Command?
And what is the Elven Command in the first place? The association I have would be Team Peregrine et al., which I think are all dead. Is this another bunch of elves who might get involved later? Or are this the allies of Hinjo (which send Team Peregrine et al.)?


New Western Order

Is this Tarquin et al.? Or is this Amun-Zora et al.?
Either way we don't know whether they are getting involved in the Gate business. But if Tarquin decides to play the Gate game (most likely by stalking Elan), I think Amun-Zora will follow him. Imo if you consider one of them to be Gate-relevant they are both Gate-relevant (unless you track Tarquin as some kind of inactive and only count his past role).


Directors/IFCC/Linear Guild

I think the Linear Guild need to be their own side. While through Sabine they where mostly pawns, they were a separate group. The IFCC couldn't order them to do anything. They merely hoped that the LG would make the right things through Sabine's influence.
Otherwise you could also count the Azure Resistance to Redcloak, because they had a undercover agent working for Redcloak.

[Wyatt8000]

This is fun and all, but I think the "9 sides" comment was as random and irrelevant as everything else the demon cockroaches have said.

[Gift Jeraff]

The next-book-foreshadowing at the end of DStP's comentary mentions that we would meet one of the nine sides in the current book (presumably Tarquin), and clarifies that the sides = contenders for the Gates.

[Gwynfrid]

I'd imagine each Scribbler, and their successors/defenses if applicable, should count as a separate side.
I disagree. I mean, yes, the Scribblers are no longer allied so they are not one unified camp. But they only count if they were still in play at the time of the demon-roaches comment that there are at least nine sides.This leaves:

The Sapphire Guard
Girard and the Draketooths
... and possibly Serini - we don't know if she's still around or left allies behind (long-lived, intelligent monsters loyal to her?)

Dorukan is dead and there's no sign that he left any allies behind to continue the fight. The same applies to Lirian. If agree with ChristianSt that we have no indication of any relationship with the elven nation leadership, nor do we know if the elves are interested in taking over or defending a Gate on their own right (as opposed to simply helping their Azurite allies).

I also agree with ChristianSt that the IFCC and the Linear Guild are different sides. The LG was infiltrated, but not wholly controlled by the IFCC. And when push comes to shove, I'm not sure Sabine will obey the Directors; her behavior so far indicates she may well prioritize vengeance over her bosses' interest. We cannot know what would have happened if Nale had gotten close to winning control of a Gate.

As for the Thieves Guild and Bozzok, I don't think they count. Bozzok wants payback against Haley, but we have no indication that he's interested about the Gates or even knows of their existence. In 942, Geoff says Haley is going to the North Pole "for some reason", meaning he doesn't know (Haley didn't talk about the Gates when she met Ian in jail) or, even if he does, he's not telling Bozzok.

So, on the deep end of the alignment pool we have:

Xykon
Redcloak and the Dark One
Linear Guild
IFCC
Team Tarquin

Add the Order to that list, and we have eight sides and one question mark. I guess the next book is when we learn about Serini, or if someone else is in contention for the last Gate.

[Jay R]

I'm enjoying the fact that a character once threw out the phrase "at least nine", in a context indicating that he didn't know how many there were and that it was impossible to even define what a side was, and ever since, people have tried to find the nine exactly-defined sides.

[Sir_Leorik]

I'm enjoying the fact that a character once threw out the phrase "at least nine", in a context indicating that he didn't know how many there were and that it was impossible to even define what a side was, and ever since, people have tried to find the nine exactly-defined sides.

In the comic in question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html), Jirix is questioning why Redcloak is so adamantly opposed to Jirix hanging out with Xykon and Tsukiko. "Aren't we on the same side?", Jirix asks. Redcloak replies that it's a complicated question.

:redcloak: "How many "sides" are there in this conflict, anyway? Three? Four? More?"

Then one of the Demon Roaches lets slip:

:roach: "I count at least nine."

:roach: "Shh! They don't know about some of those yet!"

The words "at least" are an interesting qualifier. There aren't necessarily exactly nine, there are at least nine. There could be just nine, or there could be ten or more. But there have to be at least nine, and Tarquin and Co. are one of those nine.

Once again, here's my take on the nine sides. The Order of the Stick is one of the sides; they're allied with the Azurites/Sapphire Guard, but they're independent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html), so they should each be a separate side. Likewise, Xykon and Redcloak are allies, but each of them is likely to betray the other, and Redcloak has been blatantly lying to Xykon about what the Ritual will do, ever since they became allies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html). So Team Evil is composed of two sides, working sort of in unison. The Linear Guild was a side, until Nale was murdered and disintegrated, but they were being manipulated subtly by the IFCC. That's another two sides. And Tarquin and his cronies, who were hinted at in the author commentary to DStP, make the seventh side.

So we're really trying to figure out who the other two (or more) sides might be. If Bozzok is really going to go after Haley (possibly with a Raised Crystal and other assassins and mercenaries), then the Greysky City Thieves' Guild is a potential candidate for a side. While they won't be contesting for the Gate, they would be trying to ambush the OotS, which potentially can allow Team Evil or the IFCC to move ahead with their plans.

[zimmerwald1915]

Broadly in agreement but a slight nitpick about the Azurites... I think the whole side needs to be called the Azurites, because:
Calling a side "Azurites" is more problematic than calling Team Evil a single side. "Azurites" includes Kubota and Therkla, who were even less on Hinjo's "side" than Redcloak is on Xykon's. Kubota and Therkla, meanwhile, can't really be considered their own side in the struggle for the Gates the way The Dark One and his minions can, since they never tried to prevent anyone from seizing control over a Gate. They abstained from preventing Xykon from securing control over the Azure City gate, and their activities against Hinjo would not at any point have had an impact on the struggle for that or any other Gate.

Maybe "Azure City Government in Exile" could work as the current active incarnation of the side, into which Niu - if she appears again, a possibility about which I'm much less sure than you - could be glommed.


We also need to include:

[color="red"]Shojo[color]

who, for all his faults was trying to protect the gates, and Daigo and Kazumi, who may see a return.
I wanted to stick to one "prime mover" per side to be singled out and named as an individual. I think Soon, who led the Order of the Scribble (who are all named in conjunction with their respective sides), founded the Sapphire Guard and was critical to the defense of Soon's Gate (hey, it's even named after him!), warrants that more than Shojo does. It's the same reason I singled out the Dark One as the head of the goblinoid side and not Redcloak. Nothing against Shojo, I just think Soon is more important. Daigo and Kazumi would be included in an "Azurite Government in Exile" category, and are perhaps the strongest reasons for including that name.


I don't think that is really the same side. Have we any indication that Lirian has anything to do with the Elven Command?
And what is the Elven Command in the first place? The association I have would be Team Peregrine et al., which I think are all dead. Is this another bunch of elves who might get involved later? Or are this the allies of Hinjo (which send Team Peregrine et al.)?
I'm away from my book at the moment so I can't quote the scene directly, but when Lirian is talking with her subordinates about their strategy for defending the Gate, either they or she (I think it's she) mentions that they expect reinforcements. Lirian herself doesn't need to have subordinates anywhere but at her Glade, so I infer from that scene that they're expecting help from forces outside her direct chain of command. The only other military force in Elven lands that we know of is Elven Command, so I infer that that's whence she expected help.

Elven Command is the group back in Elven lands to which Team Peregrine and Team Harrier reported, and which presumably ordered them to Azure City and drafted their mission statements. From the way the teams are structured, with defined chains of command and identifiable military ranks appropriate to the sizes of the teams - including "Commander" and "Lieutenant," so capitalized - I infer that Elven Command is a centralized military command.


Is this Tarquin et al.? Or is this Amun-Zora et al.?
It's my name for Tarquin and co. I'm hoping it'll catch on.


Either way we don't know whether they are getting involved in the Gate business. But if Tarquin decides to play the Gate game (most likely by stalking Elan), I think Amun-Zora will follow him. Imo if you consider one of them to be Gate-relevant they are both Gate-relevant (unless you track Tarquin as some kind of inactive and only count his past role).
By the definition I used, the NWO is a side by virtue of Malack's and Tarquin's attempting to prevent the Order and the Linear Guild from gaining control of Girard's Gate. The Don't Split the Party commentary (which I also can't cite directly for the same reasons I can't cite SoD directly) also stated that Blood Runs in the Family would introduce a new side in the struggle for the Gates. If the NWO wasn't the group the Giant was referring to, I'll eat my hat.


I think the Linear Guild need to be their own side. While through Sabine they where mostly pawns, they were a separate group. The IFCC couldn't order them to do anything. They merely hoped that the LG would make the right things through Sabine's influence.
Otherwise you could also count the Azure Resistance to Redcloak, because they had a undercover agent working for Redcloak.
Unlike the Resistance vis a vis Redcloak, the Linear Guild never, that we know of, took an action contrary to the interests of the Directors. Judging by the end of Don't Split the Party, the Directors considered the whole Guild their pawns, not just Sabine and Qarr. Judging by their dialogue with V, they do not consider the entire Order their pawns in the same way, even though according to you they have the same number of agents on both teams. And Nale, judging by every scene in which he and Sabine appear after Tarquin, Malack, and Kilkil "join" the Linear Guild, is putty in Sabine's claws.


I disagree. I mean, yes, the Scribblers are no longer allied so they are not one unified camp. But they only count if they were still in play at the time of the demon-roaches comment that there are at least nine sides.
I accounted for this by introducing the category of "extinguished sides," denoted by strikethrough marks through their entire lines. At the time of the demon roach's comment, Dorukan and the Draketooth Clan, at one time the defenders of their respective Gates, had both been extinguished.


Dorukan is dead and there's no sign that he left any allies behind to continue the fight. The same applies to Lirian. If agree with ChristianSt that we have no indication of any relationship with the elven nation leadership, nor do we know if the elves are interested in taking over or defending a Gate on their own right (as opposed to simply helping their Azurite allies).
Even if Elven Command was not involved in the defense plans of Lirian's Gate, they would still be a side due to their involvement with the Azure City Resistance. And they would be a separate, though allied, side thanks to their long resistance to getting involved and their blatant co-option of the Resistance to their own needs as a power.

[ChristianSt]

@Lirian/Elven Command (Ah I see - I couldn't remember the one panel in 670.)

I'm away from my book at the moment so I can't quote the scene directly, but when Lirian is talking with her subordinates about their strategy for defending the Gate, either they or she (I think it's she) mentions that they expect reinforcements. Lirian herself doesn't need to have subordinates anywhere but at her Glade, so I infer from that scene that they're expecting help from forces outside her direct chain of command. The only other military force in Elven lands that we know of is Elven Command, so I infer that that's whence she expected help.


I did a quick scan of my SoD and the only dialogue with Lirian about reinforcements is:

Random Elf: "The old human has already killed dozens of us elves!"
Lirian: "We don't need to defeat them - just to hold out for a little longer."
Random Elf: "Reinforcements are coming?? We're saved!"
Lirian: "That is one way of looking at it."

We don't see any reinforcements arriving, and basically the next thing that happens is the guardian virus striking Xykon down.
With her unclear answer I think Lirian did meant the guardian virus in that conversation.
While there are some random elves, which might be related to the Elven Command, I wouldn't say SoD does anything to make that relation much more plausible than the fact that Liarian is an elf and the gate is located in the elven lands.
Which in my eyes isn't enough to say that they are the same side.


EDIT:
I agree that Team Tarquin is/was a side. But if you track defeated sides you should imo also track inactive sides. And if you think that Tarquin is active, than I think Amun-Zora will head to the Gates, too.

[and I will certainly not use New Western Order for Team Tarquin, because I somehow mix that up too much with the New World Order (which is a Design/Development tool used for Magic) :smalltongue:]


EDIT2: On Linear Guild: We don't know how much Sabine's influenced the Linear Guild's decisions. What we know that the Linear Guild went for the Gates. It is possibly that their goals line up. But I don't think that Nale would do that willingly. I think it is pretty much the same situation as with Xykon/Redcloak. Only that the relationship Nale/Sabine was more genuine - so I think it is even possible that Sabine would betray the IFCC.
(Also I don't see any distinction between how you use Directors and the IFCC.)

[martianmister]

My current list:

OotS and their allies: Wants to save the world.
LG and its remnants: Wants world domination.
IFCC and their pawns: Wants to destroy upper planes.
Redcloak and Goblinoids: Wants a better world for goblinoids.
Xykon and his minions: Wants to conquer the world.
Tarquin and his friends: Wants to stay in power.
Gods and their followers: Wants to eliminate Snarl problem, not matter what.
Snarl and its worshippers: Wants to destroy the world.

[zimmerwald1915]

(Also I don't see any distinction between how you use Directors and the IFCC.)
We'll just have to agree to disagree on the rest, but since this just demands clarification I'll respond. "The Directors" are the individual characters Lee, Nero, and Cedric. "The IFCC" is an organization that is headed by them and staffed by other fiends. Of those other fiends, only two have been shown in the comic, but I'd find it very odd if the bosses outnumbered their subordinates.

[DeliaP]

Maybe "Azure City Government in Exile" could work as the current active incarnation of the side, into which Niu - if she appears again, a possibility about which I'm much less sure than you - could be glommed.

I wanted to stick to one "prime mover" per side to be singled out and named as an individual. I think Soon, who led the Order of the Scribble (who are all named in conjunction with their respective sides), founded the Sapphire Guard and was critical to the defense of Soon's Gate (hey, it's even named after him!), warrants that more than Shojo does.

It's the same reason I singled out the Dark One as the head of the goblinoid side and not Redcloak. Nothing against Shojo, I just think Soon is more important.

OK, I see that, but Redcloak does get a mention, whereas Shojo (who was neither Sapphire Guard nor The Resistance) was quite left out.

I'm not suggesting he was the prime mover of that side, initially, but he was the prime mover of that side when the OotS first discovered it all. Seems unfair to leave him out.



Daigo and Kazumi would be included in an "Azurite Government in Exile" category, and are perhaps the strongest reasons for including that name.

Well, to be honest, I'd consider Niu to be more likely to be active in further Gate related action than the new parents, who are probably pre-occupied with new parenthood. But I'm OK with "Azurite Government in Exile" as a catch all term for Hinjo, Lien, O-Chul, Daigo, Kazumi and Niu (and any other with-the-protagonists Azurites that may crop up in Book 6).

Re: New Western Order.


It's my name for Tarquin and co. I'm hoping it'll catch on.

Me, I like it. It avoids the "Wait, if Tarquin's not really the leader, who is?" while making a rather nice reference to the whole conspiracy.:smallsmile:

[zimmerwald1915]

OK, I see that, but Redcloak does get a mention, whereas Shojo (who was neither Sapphire Guard nor The Resistance) was quite left out.
In my list Redcloak does not get a mention. I figure his side is headed by the Dark One, Redcloak's patron and the guy from whom he takes orders. As for Shojo, technically he was head of the Sapphire Guard as well as Lord of the City, so a "Sapphire Guard" listing includes him.

Ultimately, of course, these lists only matter to the people who create them, and everybody who cares has their own. So sharing is more about explaining one's own viewpoint than trying to build some kind of consensus.


Re: New Western Order.

Me, I like it. It avoids the "Wait, if Tarquin's not really the leader, who is?" while making a rather nice reference to the whole conspiracy.:smallsmile:
My thoughts exactly :smallbiggrin:

[Sir_Leorik]

(Also I don't see any distinction between how you use Directors and the IFCC.)


We'll just have to agree to disagree on the rest, but since this just demands clarification I'll respond. "The Directors" are the individual characters Lee, Nero, and Cedric. "The IFCC" is an organization that is headed by them and staffed by other fiends. Of those other fiends, only two have been shown in the comic, but I'd find it very odd if the bosses outnumbered their subordinates.

I think that you're being incredibly pedantic on this point. While I use the term "IFCC Directors" or "The Directors" as shorthand for Lee, Nero and Cedrik, I don't see the point in listing them separately from the IFCC itself in this instance. They are the leaders of the IFCC, they set it's agenda, and they are actively involved in a scheme involving the Gates, which is not true of The Dark One (see below). For all intents and purposes, the IFCC is an extension of Lee, Nero and Cedrik's will , the same way that the Decepticons are an extension of Megatron's will, or that AIM is an extension of Dr. Monica Rappaccini and MODOK. The Directors plot and scheme, and while they are hindered by their inability to enter the Material Plane, they are free to snatch Vaarsuvius' soul two more times and to send Sabine, Qarr or any other agent to do their bidding.

As for the Dark One...


In my list Redcloak does not get a mention. I figure his side is headed by the Dark One, Redcloak's patron and the guy from whom he takes orders.

The Dark One is unable to carry out any portion of The Plan until the ritual is cast, because he is forbidden to interfere in the matters of rival gods. His portfolio is Goblinoids, not Apocalyptic Schemes. So he has no say in how Redcloak (or any other Goblin who may succeed him as Bearer of the Crimson Mantle) carries out The Plan. The Dark One set The Plan in motion by enchanting the Crimson Mantle, but until the Ritual is cast, he's stuck observing matters (and presumably getting impatient, as seen in the message The Dark One asked Jirix to pass on to Redcloak). So I put Redcloak's name in front of the Dark One. It may be the Dark One's Plan, but it hinges on Redcloak's ability to carry it out (including making sure Xykon casts the Arcane half of the Ritual without figuring out the truth). Redcloak is the one doing all the work.

At least Lee, Nero and Cedrik are involved in their scheme. They may have to get together at Lee's office in Nessus, since they can't come to the Material Plane, but they are the ones who are exercising their right to seize Vaarsuvius' soul at a time of their choosing.

(Of course once the Ritual is cast, the Dark One is planning to spring into action and get ready to blackmail the gods. But he's been waiting for decades to do that, and he has other stuff to do.)

[Gwynfrid]

I'm away from my book at the moment so I can't quote the scene directly, but when Lirian is talking with her subordinates about their strategy for defending the Gate, either they or she (I think it's she) mentions that they expect reinforcements. Lirian herself doesn't need to have subordinates anywhere but at her Glade, so I infer from that scene that they're expecting help from forces outside her direct chain of command. The only other military force in Elven lands that we know of is Elven Command, so I infer that that's whence she expected help.

Until supported by events in a future book, I'm going to label that a stretch. Moreoever, as ChristianSt noted,
Lirian's reinforcements are no elves.


Elven Command is the group back in Elven lands to which Team Peregrine and Team Harrier reported, and which presumably ordered them to Azure City and drafted their mission statements. From the way the teams are structured, with defined chains of command and identifiable military ranks appropriate to the sizes of the teams - including "Commander" and "Lieutenant," so capitalized - I infer that Elven Command is a centralized military command.

Why not, but their interest in the Gates remains unproven.



By the definition I used, the NWO is a side by virtue of Malack's and Tarquin's attempting to prevent the Order and the Linear Guild from gaining control of Girard's Gate. The Don't Split the Party commentary (which I also can't cite directly for the same reasons I can't cite SoD directly) also stated that Blood Runs in the Family would introduce a new side in the struggle for the Gates. If the NWO wasn't the group the Giant was referring to, I'll eat my hat.

On this one I agree, Team Tarquin is unquestionably a side.



Unlike the Resistance vis a vis Redcloak, the Linear Guild never, that we know of, took an action contrary to the interests of the Directors. Judging by the end of Don't Split the Party, the Directors considered the whole Guild their pawns, not just Sabine and Qarr.
They may consider them that way, but it doesn't mean they are fully correct in doing so.



And Nale, judging by every scene in which he and Sabine appear after Tarquin, Malack, and Kilkil "join" the Linear Guild, is putty in Sabine's claws.
Maybe... But as mentioned earlier, I don't think Sabine's loyalty to the IFCC is a given.



I accounted for this by introducing the category of "extinguished sides," denoted by strikethrough marks through their entire lines. At the time of the demon roach's comment, Dorukan and the Draketooth Clan, at one time the defenders of their respective Gates, had both been extinguished.

Nope. The roach comments are in 548, at that time the Draketooths are still very much alive.



I agree that Team Tarquin is/was a side. But if you track defeated sides you should imo also track inactive sides. And if you think that Tarquin is active, than I think Amun-Zora will head to the Gates, too.
She might, but that doesn't make her a side respective to the Gates themselves, in the same way that going after Haley doesn't make Bozzok a Gate player.


Re: New Western Order.

Me, I like it. It avoids the "Wait, if Tarquin's not really the leader, who is?" while making a rather nice reference to the whole conspiracy.:smallsmile:
Maybe, but in the context of the Gates, it's not relevant. Tarquin is the only one in the group who showed any interest in the Gates.

[russdm]

Well, we ought to look at what we have currently)

There are 5 gates as far as we know: Kraagor's, Soon's, Girard's, Lirian's, and Dorukan's. Of these, only Kraagor's and Girard's are still intact. We really don't know exactly what is going on with Girard's. That leaves Kraagor's left. This means that the final conflict is beginning to happen soon or so.

As for the sides, I don't count the Linear Guild as a side because there is no indication that Nale would have actually been able to succeed and Nale always seemed to lack the long-term planning ended to go after a gate. He was almost completely driven by revenge and taking it, so I don't see his group as being a side.

Also, there is nothing stated that all of the "at least nine" sides will actually exist at the final gate battle(s). It is possible that some sides have been lost or destroyed in the running.

My list of sides however is:

OOTS: The heroes of course
Scribbles: I can't see them having not come up with some kind of backup plan
Redcloak and the Dark One, Plus goblins: Redcloak is following the instructions of his god
Xykon: There has been clear evidence shown that both Xykon and Redcloak have completely different plans for the gate, and are in fact opponents for it. I can see Redcloak destroying Xykon once the Lich has outlived(died?) his usefulness
Sapphire Guard: Create by Soon, it still exists, though there is nearly no members left, but Hinjo does look to be planning to fight for the gates
the IFCC(sp?) with Linear Guild: The three fiends consist of a side with the LG serving under them, I don't nale was ever intended to be an actual side
Julio Scoundrel: There is no reason to assume that Julio won't get involved in some fashion, being a dashing rogue and all
Tarquin and CO (the NWO): Tarquin is trying to prove stuff to Elan, so interfering with Elan's quest makes perfect sense
Demonroaches: Given how frequently they lurk around our villains, I am not sure that they aren't actually working the angles or aren't spying for the three fiends
Amun-Zora and company: Using the gates to take on Tarquin makes a strange bit of sense
MITD: We don't have any actual evidence to suggest this, but its entirely possible that the MitD might be making its own play for the gate in some fashion. The possibility is that it could have been made by the snarl to prevent the Snarl's destruction
The Snarl: The snarl destroyed the original world, which meant it could make a replacement. There is no reason for it to try to trick Blackwing, V's familiar so we should assume that it has a plan for the gates. In fact, the snarl killing Soon's wife might have occurred because the snarl was trying to protect its world from the gods who might mess with it. We should consider that the snarl has not appeared to notice the gates are no longer blocked and it can send stuff/material through into the OOTS main world.
The Gods besides the Dark One: I think that they are involved simply because the Snarl doesn't like them and it did kill some of them. the survivors are probably quite interested in not having to deal with the snarl again.
The Elves/Elven Command: You should always suspect the elves to be involved somehow.

[ChristianSt]

There are 5 gates as far as we know: Kraagor's, Soon's, Girard's, Lirian's, and Dorukan's. Of these, only Kraagor's and Girard's are still intact. We really don't know exactly what is going on with Girard's. That leaves Kraagor's left. This means that the final conflict is beginning to happen soon or so.

It would be rather surprising if a 6th Gate would show up - I can't imagine that will happen.

To Girard's Gate: Have you missed the explosion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html) and the rift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html)? Or are you implying that was a fake Gate/explosion/rift/whatever and the real Gate is still there?

On the final conflict happening soon: It can take a while. We know that there are 7 books total (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15827621#post15827621), and imo it would strange to have the final conflict in book 6. And with the trend that books get longer, I think Book 6 won't be finished so soon.

[Sunken Valley]

Has anyone considered team evil is 3 sides? The MitD clearly has a different agenda to Xykon and Redcloak.

[DeliaP]

Has anyone considered team evil is 3 sides? The MitD clearly has a different agenda to Xykon and Redcloak.

Does "Stew" really count as an agenda? :smallwink:

[Gwynfrid]

Does "Stew" really count as an agenda? :smallwink:

Good point :smallamused:

The MitD is a wild card. Not really a side... but for all we know, when all is said and done, he might end up Master of the World (with nutmeg).

[Sir_Leorik]

Well, we ought to look at what we have currently)

There are were5 gates as far as we know: Kraagor's, Soon's, Girard's, Lirian's, and Dorukan's.

Fixed that for you.


Of these, only Kraagor's and Girard's are still intact. We really don't know exactly what is going on with Girard's.

Ahem. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html)


That leaves Kraagor's left. This means that the final conflict is beginning to happen soon or so.

As for the sides, I don't count the Linear Guild as a side because there is no indication that Nale would have actually been able to succeed and Nale always seemed to lack the long-term planning ended to go after a gate. He was almost completely driven by revenge and taking it, so I don't see his group as being a side.

The Linear Guild were definitely one of the nine sides. They may or may not be defunct now, but Nale definitely had plans to sieze and control Girard's Gate. They weren't good plans, but let's be honest: that never stopped him before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) :smallamused:


Also, there is nothing stated that all of the "at least nine" sides will actually exist at the final gate battle(s). It is possible that some sides have been lost or destroyed in the running.

I think the definitive point is that there were or would be nine sides around the time that the Demon Roaches let that fact slip out.

[russdm]

The Linear Guild were definitely one of the nine sides. They may or may not be defunct now, but Nale definitely had plans to sieze and control Girard's Gate. They weren't good plans, but let's be honest: that never stopped him before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) :smallamused:

I think the definitive point is that there were or would be nine sides around the time that the Demon Roaches let that fact slip out.

Well, I wasn't sure where the strips were relating to Girard's gate, nor did I recall due to what was currently happening. Also, I couldn't tell if the gate was actually destroyed or if Girard had made up something false.

As for the sides, I don't think that the Demon Roaches meant that nine sides would show up at the battle but that at the time they mentioned nine sides that nine sides existed. We have seen the LG end up out of the running since with Nale gone it no longer counts. Nor can I believe for a second that the three fiends would have allowed Nale to take control of a gate for any length of time because it would defeat their purposes.

We can't assume that some of the sides won't change or get removed as their part in the story vanishes or they get removed. As of right now, the LG is effectively dead since it seemed to solely function around Nale+Sabine, and I don't see it being restored. There is the possible team up of Sabine with Elan to take out Tarquin, but beyond that I naturally assume that the LG is gone. Also, the three fiends spoke in a way suggesting that Nale served them completely, no matter how much Sabine might have lied or tricked him.

[Gift Jeraff]

As for the sides, I don't think that the Demon Roaches meant that nine sides would show up at the battle but that at the time they mentioned nine sides that nine sides existed. We have seen the LG end up out of the running since with Nale gone it no longer counts. Nor can I believe for a second that the three fiends would have allowed Nale to take control of a gate for any length of time because it would defeat their purposes.

The fiends didn't want anyone to control take control of Girard's Gate. They just happen to have greater/more direct leverage over some sides than others.

Nale had goals completely separate from the fiends, and his presence in the conflict for the Gates affected other sides (dragging Tarquin/Malack into it; killing Malack). He was his own side.

[DeliaP]

The fiends didn't want anyone to control take control of Girard's Gate. They just happen to have greater/more direct leverage over some sides than others.

Nale had goals completely separate from the fiends, and his presence in the conflict for the Gates affected other sides (dragging Tarquin/Malack into it; killing Malack). He was his own side.

Very much agree! I have my own theory about the IFCC's agenda

The fiends want all the gates destroyed and the Snarl released. The Snarl destroys Gods not fiends, so that would leave only fiends, who would then rule the universe. That's what they meant when they said it was technically true that their plan was to bring down the good Gods: their plan would bring down the evil Gods too...

and it definitely isn't the same as Nale's was...

[martianmister]

Snarl destroys everything, not just gods.

[DeliaP]

Snarl destroys everything, not just gods.

Respectfully disagree that we know this. What we know of the Snarl is

- Redcloak's story in SoD;
- Shojo's story;
- word of giant that both Redcloak and Shojo are telling what they believed to be true;
- the potentially important fact that neither Redcloak nor Shojo were reporting what they'd seen. Both were reporting what they'd been told;
- Redcloak admitting that the rift above Gobbotopia is not behaving as he'd expect;
- the whole world-in-the-rift thing that seems to show that Shojo and Redcloak's stories simply can't be the whole story.

(If you want to be a skeptic, we don't even have any firsthand evidence that the Snarl even exists!)

Do the IFCC know more than we do? Maybe.

[Snails]

This is fun and all, but I think the "9 sides" comment was as random and irrelevant as everything else the demon cockroaches have said.

I think it was not random but not important.

I interpret the comment as a one-line gag referring to the 9 Alignments. In other words: "With the stakes so high, everyone is in this fight, whether they know it or not."

Therefore there is no meaning to be discovered by actually counting up the groups involved. The free for all at the top of the world will be everyone.

That said, I do find it odd that Bozzok is asking about Haley. My vulcan side says that Bozzok worrying over Haley is illogical -- she knows Bozzok will attempt to kill her if she is in the vicinity of Greysky. Greysky is Bozzok's power base. Bozzok will be killed like a kitten if he strays from home. What is Bozzok's angle with worrying over an errant rogue in another continent?

[Snails]

Do the IFCC know more than we do? Maybe.

While I like how you think -- the super double-crossiness of your idea is appealing, the Gates themselves offer circumstantial evidence that Soon/Shojo were accurate about the Snarl destroying the previous world. What makes the IFCC believe that the Snarl will not destroy the new one, as well?

However, this line of reasoning offers another possibility: The World Inside is the Original World -- the Snarl never destroyed it. The Gods abandoned all contact with the Original World (cue Alec Guinness to explain how the Original World was destroyed, from a certain point of view), and then built the New World which is the Snarl prison.

This is still a bit hocus pocus, unless the IFCC knows something the Readers do not. And that is probably the case. It is not clear how the IFCC expects to gain from Gates being destroyed, based on the information we have.

[DeliaP]

While I like how you think -- the super double-crossiness of your idea is appealing, the Gates themselves offer circumstantial evidence that Soon/Shojo were accurate about the Snarl destroying the previous world. What makes the IFCC believe that the Snarl will not destroy the new one, as well?

However, this line of reasoning offers another possibility: The World Inside is the Original World -- the Snarl never destroyed it. The Gods abandoned all contact with the Original World (cue Alec Guinness to explain how the Original World was destroyed, from a certain point of view), and then built the New World which is the Snarl prison.

This is still a bit hocus pocus, unless the IFCC knows something the Readers do not. And that is probably the case. It is not clear how the IFCC expects to gain from Gates being destroyed, based on the information we have.

There's another minor piece of evidence for my little pet theory: when apologising to Tiamat for the death of so many black dragons, they promised to kill at least as many good dragons as recompense... And then confidently spoke of that promise as being easy to achieve if their plan came about! Something would have to seriously shift balances of power in their favour for them to suddenly be confident they could do that.

(OK, even crazier agenda: they want V, not Xykon, to perform the arcane part of the ritual, and will be able to exploit V to seize control of the gates themselves!!!)

[happyman]

(OK, even crazier agenda: they want V, not Xykon, to perform the arcane part of the ritual, and will be able to exploit V to seize control of the gates themselves!!!)

A sensible idea that has been batted about (including by V hirself) but can't be proven and is in (mild) conflict with what they actually did with V while he was in their power. (Not certain; it's possible this is still their goal, and that they just lied to V about not being able to control his body so that they could use it properly when better circumstances existed.) I consider it a low-probability situation, though. Much more likely they know a lot more than we do. Without more information, I am having a hard time understanding their actions.

[dps]

I have some doubt about the IFCC knowing more about the Gates than we do. IIRC, they didn't even know about their existance until Sabine told them (I could be mis-remembering this, though).

[Rodin]

I have some doubt about the IFCC knowing more about the Gates than we do. IIRC, they didn't even know about their existance until Sabine told them (I could be mis-remembering this, though).

Their first in-comic appearance was Sabine telling them about the Gates.

On the flip side, they undoubtedly have better intelligence sources than Sabine once they know what they're looking for, and they clearly have a plan separate from "let Xykon control the Gate and cause chaos".

With their unspoken plan and their confidence, I would put money that they think they know more than any of the other players in the Rift game. Whether they are correct, ah, now there's the rub...

[Kish]

Didn't the Pilgrim solve the mystery of the nine sides a while ago?

Yes, yes he did. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16471045&postcount=16)

[happyman]

Their first in-comic appearance was Sabine telling them about the Gates.

On the flip side, they undoubtedly have better intelligence sources than Sabine once they know what they're looking for, and they clearly have a plan separate from "let Xykon control the Gate and cause chaos".

With their unspoken plan and their confidence, I would put money that they think they know more than any of the other players in the Rift game. Whether they are correct, ah, now there's the rub...

I have no doubt whatsoever that they know more about the gates than the other sides involved. One big clue: They didn't act the slightest bit surprised by V dropping the existence of a world inside the rift, not even when they were alone after s/he had left. Note that in the same circumstances, Sabine said frankly that she had no idea what he was talking about.

My current theory is

that the IFCC have always known more about the rifts than the heroes have (well, since well before there first appearance in the strip anyway). The discovery that triggered their plan was the realization that the mortals had the story wrong and could be fooled, not the discovery about the nature of their world.

[Gift Jeraff]

I have no doubt whatsoever that they know more about the gates than the other sides involved. One big clue: They didn't act the slightest bit surprised by V dropping the existence of a world inside the rift, not even when they were alone after s/he had left. Note that in the same circumstances, Sabine said frankly that she had no idea what he was talking about.

My current theory is

that the IFCC have always known more about the rifts than the heroes have (well, since well before there first appearance in the strip anyway). The discovery that triggered their plan was the realization that the mortals had the story wrong and could be fooled, not the discovery about the nature of their world.

That's...actually a good theory.

Maybe their grand plan is to fully expose the gods' deceptions, thus bringing them down.

[Sir_Leorik]

Didn't the Pilgrim solve the mystery of the nine sides a while ago?

Yes, yes he did. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16471045&postcount=16)

How did I miss that post when it came out? :smallconfused: It fully encapsulates the endless, back and forth debates here to a tee! :smallamused:

[happyman]

That's...actually a good theory.

Maybe their grand plan is to fully expose the gods' deceptions, thus bringing them down.

Oh, I hope that it's something along those lines, but far more potent, metaphysically speaking. After all, they are expecting enough power from their scheme to trivially wipe out as many Good dragons as V did bad ones, as well as (at a bare minimum) to take down the Good Gods. Given that they aren't shaken to the core by V's comments about the planet in the rift, they have to know something even more potent about what is going on.

[Cicciograna]

So.

Is Hel another side?

[Keltest]

How did I miss that post when it came out? :smallconfused: It fully encapsulates the endless, back and forth debates here to a tee! :smallamused:

yeah, but its missing Durkon (who is still Trigak) being a demon/ being himself, only with dietary issues.

[Sniffnoy]

So.

Is Hel another side?

Yup, seems unambiguous. That is, unless she's secretly working with the IFCC. :P

[DeliaP]

Yup, seems unambiguous. That is, unless she's secretly working with the IFCC. :P

Or the Dark One! :smalleek:

[SlashDash]

I realize this post is quite old, but as people kept discussing it later


There's another minor piece of evidence for my little pet theory: when apologising to Tiamat for the death of so many black dragons, they promised to kill at least as many good dragons as recompense... And then confidently spoke of that promise as being easy to achieve if their plan came about! Something would have to seriously shift balances of power in their favour for them to suddenly be confident they could do that.

Nope, you are wrong. There is no need for any shift in power.
Remember, it was the IFCC that gave V the soul splice that enabled her to cast the familicide in the first place.

In other words, they already have the power to make some other spellcaster cast it if they chose to, ergo they can kill all the dragons they bloody heck want.



(OK, even crazier agenda: they want V, not Xykon, to perform the arcane part of the ritual, and will be able to exploit V to seize control of the gates themselves!!!)
Absolutely false. Team evil said it would take several weeks to cast the ritual, meaning V's debt doesn't even come close.

Plus why would they want V to do it? Are they really lacking evil arcane casters to do it? Again, they have the souls of casters far more powerful than V.

[hamishspence]

.
Remember, it was the IFCC that gave V the soul splice that enabled her to cast the familicide in the first place.


They also said it was a "once a century" thing.

[Keltest]

They also said it was a "once a century" thing.

Even if it is, time is fairly relative to immortal beings like demons and gods, and even dragons don't notice that much. Plus, they could have lied to make the sell.

[Rakaydos]

I realize this post is quite old, but as people kept discussing it later


Nope, you are wrong. There is no need for any shift in power.
Remember, it was the IFCC that gave V the soul splice that enabled her to cast the familicide in the first place.

If the fiends unleash the Snarl, "At least as many" good dragons will be killed as black dragons were killed by familicide.

[David Argall]

Oh, I hope that it's something along those lines, but far more potent, metaphysically speaking. After all, they are expecting enough power from their scheme to trivially wipe out as many Good dragons as V did bad ones, as well as (at a bare minimum) to take down the Good Gods. Given that they aren't shaken to the core by V's comments about the planet in the rift, they have to know something even more potent about what is going on.
Now the knowledge of the planet should worry anyone because it reminds one of the limits to knowledge, and how the unknown could ruin all plans. But of itself, it seems to mean nothing. Planet or not, the Snarl threatens the world, but might be usefully be controlled by the gates, or be unleashed by their destruction.


So.

Is Hel another side?
Maybe. We do not know if she has any interest in the gate at all. Her plot may mean merely the death of many dwarves, not of the world.



Nope, you are wrong. There is no need for any shift in power.
Remember, it was the IFCC that gave V the soul splice that enabled her to cast the familicide in the first place.

In other words, they already have the power to make some other spellcaster cast it if they chose to, ergo they can kill all the dragons they bloody heck want.
Clearly they can't. We don't know why not, but these are minions, of much less power than the gods, or even of some unnamed greater fiends. Since none of these have killed lots of dragons despite being in theory able to, there is some major limit hampering them. We don't know if those limits are threats to kill if they try it, or magic limits [such as the possible once in a century requirement] or whatever, but there is a limit, and a very powerful one.


Even if it is, time is fairly relative to immortal beings like demons and gods, and even dragons don't notice that much. Plus, they could have lied to make the sell.
Time is still a limit. If you kill 1/4 of 1/10 of all dragons every century, natural breeding can easily mean you end up with more dragons than before and can never even reduce the number, much less eliminate it.
Nor is a lie likely. This is contract law. If you lie, you risk voiding the contract. While soul selling stories are vague about what enforces the rules, they are quite clear that the rules are binding and lies can void the entire contract. [of course, lies by omission, or by twisting the terms, are another matter. But the fiends can not lie and expect any benefit.

[Keltest]

Time is still a limit. If you kill 1/4 of 1/10 of all dragons every century, natural breeding can easily mean you end up with more dragons than before and can never even reduce the number, much less eliminate it.
Nor is a lie likely. This is contract law. If you lie, you risk voiding the contract. While soul selling stories are vague about what enforces the rules, they are quite clear that the rules are binding and lies can void the entire contract. [of course, lies by omission, or by twisting the terms, are another matter. But the fiends can not lie and expect any benefit.

They don't need to make a dent in the population though. They have a flat amount of dragons they need to kill. A time limit was not specified. While Tiamat may eventually get impatient, there is no doomsday clock in the background.

[Vinyadan]

Well, with the Linear Guild decimated, there is a palpable lack of d-list fodder running around right now. :smalltongue:

What? We have the whole Gobbotopia reservoir to deplete!

[zimmerwald1915]

What? We have the whole Gobbotopia reservoir to deplete!
In terms of named characters, that amounts to Jirix and Goblin Dan. One of whom isn't an antagonist.

[DeliaP]

I just tried to re-do the list of factions, where I grouped anyone into a faction if they essentially give the same answers to:

What do they actually know about the Gates/Rift/Snarl?

and

What is their agenda?

Here's how it seems to go:

The Snarl:
- I want to destroy all gods and maybe all creation too;
- I want to destroy all gods and maybe all creation too. (Hey, what's that planet/ocean?)

The Dark One:
- What the other gods told him;
- To threaten other gods into a fairer deal for goblinoids.

Recloak
- What Dark One told him;
- Fulfil the Dark One's Plan.


Xykon:
- What Redcloak told him;
- Conquer the world.

OotS:
- What Shojo told them;
- Destroy Xykon, figure out what's up with the Rifts, probably seal them again and protect the remaining Gate.

Azurites:
- What Soon and Shojo told them;
- Survive, recapture Azure City, help seal the Rifts.

Hel:
- What Really Happened in world 1.0;
- Ruin the world, humiliate Thor.

Other Gods:
- What Really Happened in world 1.0;
- Not get destroyed by the Snarl.

IFCC:
- They're not saying;
- They're not saying (though it may likely involve: unnecessary conflict and destruction, overthrowing the gods of good, drinking the blood of angels, and destroying lots of good dragons as a fairly trivial aside)

Other factions, without any direct apparent interest in the Gates:


Remnant of the Linear Guild (Sabine):
- What Nale heard from Shojo, and may have picked up from IFCC;
- Kill Tarquin! (and the hell with anything else).

Tarquin:
- What Nale told Tarquin (but the significance of which was completely misunderstood);
- A narratively satisfying resolution with Elan.


Rest of Vector Legion:
- What Tarquin told them of what Nale told Tarquin;
- Rule the Western continent, maybe figure out what that thing is in the desert?


Team Amun Zora:
- What Gates?
- Bring down Tarquin and the Vector Legion.

Thieves Guild:
- What Gates?
- Kill Starshine!

Speculative factions, may not actually be active, have an agenda or any real awareness of what is going on.


MitD:
- What Gates?
- Stew.

Remnants of the Order of the Scribble (SoD spoiler: Lirian, Dorukan, trapped in a Soul Gem, Serini):
- What Really Happened with the Gates;
- Preserve the last Gate, reseal the Rifts?

Elven High Command:
- Maybe Lirian told them something? Maybe Hinjo told them something?;
- Help defeat Gobbotopia, probably seal Lirian's Rift.

Defunct factions, apparently no longer active, or essentially absorbed into another faction:


The Sapphire Guard (and Shojo):
- What Soon told them;
- Defend Soon's Gate, uphold Soon's Oath (except Shojo).
The Draketooth Clan:
- What Girard told them;
- Defend Girard's Gate, never trust a Paladin, engage in systematic kidnapping.



At the time the roaches spoke:
- Hel possibly didn't have her own agenda distinct from the Other Gods;
- the Linear Guild did have an agenda relating to the Gates;
- the Draketooth Clan still existed.

That would actually make exactly 9 factions active with distinct knowledge of and agenda's relating to the Gates, only one of which was revealed during the course of Book 5: the Draketooth Clan!

(And despite all this, I still think the Giant meant the Vector Legion when he said a new one of the roaches 9 factions was going to be revealed in Book 5.)

[skim172]

More or less, my criteria is people working with a common gameplan and strategy - whether or not they have their own agendas, motivations and might betray each other down the line.

So for me, Xykon, Redcloak, and the MitD are all "Team Evil" - because they work together, they plan together, they're on the same team. Stalin might stab FDR in the back once WW2 is over, but they're still on the same "team" as of 1944. MitD doesn't share Redcloak's vision, but he's still following the same plan, using the same resources, etc.

While I get the argument that Xykon and Redcloak probably are closer to enemies than friends, they are functionally acting as a single body. If we based this on personal motivations, then taken to the extreme, we'd have to establish a separate faction consisting of Hobgoblin #467 and his need to pay off his accumulated student loans. So let's base this on function: do they function as a team - even if they're not very good at it?

Similarly, I think the Order is a separate side from the Azurites - they have a major shared goal, but they're not consulting each other on strategies going forward. They're allied sides, but not working together actively.

So, here's my list (by order of introduction):

1) The Order of the Stick (and occasional helpers - Celia, Eugene, etc)
2) Team Evil (Xykon, Redcloak, MitD, assorted goblinoid subordinates and evil groupies)
3) The Linear Guild (guild memberships recently expired)
4) The Azurites (ex-Sapphires, and maybe their elven allies?)
5) IFCC and subsidiaries (all rights reserved)
6) Tarquin & Co. (might be currently in big purple tentacly doo-doo)
7) The Cult of Hel (Section 501(c)(3) non-profit religious organization)

These are definitely all sides to this conflict, in that each functions as a side and is a dynamic force acting towards an unifying overarching goal that differs from the others. Other possible sides:

a) The Thieves' Guild (will they come back into play in the story?)
b) Amun-Zora, her commandos, Ian Starshine, his traitor brother, and the two cold-blooded bounty hunters who brought them all together (A hodgepodge of characters we may never see in the main story again)
c) The Order of the Scribble (Alive or dead, their deeds, thoughts, and plans have shaped this entire conflict more profoundly than anyone else)

I'm resisting including the Snarl or the Gods, because I feel they haven't been really "characters" in the story in any dynamic way. I'm leery about the Scribblers for the same reason.


I'm pretty sure when the roaches spoke, that the Giant already had an idea in place about Hel - or at least, some kind of antagonistic force that would bring the conflict home for the dwarves. It was already established by then that Durkon was prophesied to bring destruction to the dwarven homelands - so I'm guessing the Giant already knew that he'd be bringing in some new plot thread to take the story in that direction.

[Sir_Dr_D]

The context the quote was used in , clearly label Xyxon and Redcloak being on different sides.

The sides we can say for sure are
-Xykon
-Redcloak
-OOTS
-IFCC

And probably for sure
-the Vector Legion

[Jaxzan Proditor]

More or less, my criteria is people working with a common gameplan and strategy - whether or not they have their own agendas, motivations and might betray each other down the line.

So for me, Xykon, Redcloak, and the MitD are all "Team Evil" - because they work together, they plan together, they're on the same team. Stalin might stab FDR in the back once WW2 is over, but they're still on the same "team" as of 1944. MitD doesn't share Redcloak's vision, but he's still following the same plan, using the same resources, etc.

I disagree. First of all, let's not bring real world analogies into the mix. Second, the quote which the "nine sides" idea comes from is part of a debate wherein Redcloak says that whether or not they are on the same side is a "complicated question". Also, while they may work together in a physical sense, Redcloak has plans that involve betraying Xykon, or at least using him, and Xykon has prepared for a possible betrayal of Redcloak's. Finally, the MiTD has interfered with Xykon twice now, once when he made Vaarsuvius, O-Chul, and Blackwing escape, and again when he deceived Xykon into leaving Kraagor's Gate. Also, I find it easier to to put Redcloak and the Dark One in the same category than to put them Redcloak (and by extension, The Dark One), on the same team as Xykon.

In short, they do not function as a team, and should not be described as such.

Edit: Hobgoblin #467 does not have a goal that concerns the gates, and therefore is not a side. In the end, whether or not he pays off his debt doesn't effect the gates. Xykon's and Redcloak's diverging goals both effect the gates, and make them desperate sides.

[martianmister]

1. The Order and their allies: Wants to save the world from destruction.
2. Xykon and his minions: Wants to conquer the world.
3. Redcloak and Goblinoids: Wants a better world for monster races.
4. Nale and LG members: Wants world domination.
5. Tarquin and his friends: Wants to use the gates to their own ends.
6. IFCC and their pawns: Wants to destroy the upper planes of existence.
7. Hel and her worshippers: Wants death and destruction of life on world.
8. Pantheons and their agents: Wants to eliminate the threat of Snarl.
9. Snarl and its supporters: Wants to destroy the world.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

1. The Order and their allies: Wants to save the world from destruction.
2. Xykon and his minions: Wants to conquer the world.
3. Redcloak and Goblinoids: Wants a better world for monster races.
4. Nale and LG members: Wants world domination.
5. Tarquin and his friends: Wants to use the gates to their own ends.
6. IFCC and their pawns: Wants to destroy the upper planes of existence.
7. Hel and her worshippers: Wants death and destruction of life on world.
8. Pantheons and their agents: Wants to eliminate the threat of Snarl.
9. Snarl and its supporters: Wants to destroy the world.
I don't feel like the Order and the Azurites should be grouped together, as not only are they are currently seperated from each other, but they also have somewhat different goals. Also, shouldn't the Order of the Scribble be somewhere on here?

[martianmister]

I don't feel like the Order and the Azurites should be grouped together, as not only are they are currently seperated from each other, but they also have somewhat different goals. Also, shouldn't the Order of the Scribble be somewhere on here?

Well, they all share same goal.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Another thing: I don't feel that the Vector Legion is one group, with regards toward their intentions towards the Gates. Tarquin showed almost no interest in the Gate, using it as a test for Nale, whereas Laurin used a favor to gain access to it to use the water inside it.