Con good, hit points bad

[Invader]

There's a general assumption (imo) in the playground that hit points aren't really an optimized choice especially at higher levels. You don't really need hit points because you'll have DR and miss chance, etc. and one ever thinks healing in combat is a good idea.

On the other hand 90% of handbooks and build recommendations place con as your 2nd most important stat. Understandably Con dictates fort saves and a few skills but those hardly take precedence over things you could do with incressed scores in other attributes and by and large it feels kind of like a bit of hypocrisy to me.

Now I'm not advocating either argument but I was just wondering everyone else's thoughts?

[Alefiend]

Having a high Con also provides its own buffer against ability damage/drain, something that can kill you a lot faster than HP loss. Some of the nastiest enemies ignore your HP and go straight for Con, so having more is another defense.

[Amphetryon]

There's a general assumption (imo) in the playground that hit points aren't really an optimized choice especially at higher levels. You don't really need hit points because you'll have DR and miss chance, etc. and one ever thinks healing is a good idea.

On the other hand 90% of handbooks and build recommendations place con as your 2nd most important stat. Understandably Con dictates fort saves and a few skills but those hardly take precedence over things you could do with incressed scores in other attributes and by and large it feels kind of like a bit of hypocrisy to me.

Now I'm not advocating either argument but I was just wondering everyone else's thoughts?
Above the lowest levels (precise level probably varies from table to table with play-style), HP are the last line of defense. That means that once the enemy is able to reduce them, you're already dealing with someone who got past your other defenses.

The fact that HP are the last line of defense is most likely why many folks don't advocate prioritizing them. It's also why almost nobody thinks you should scrimp on the easiest way to shore up that last line of defense.

[Lightlawbliss]

I think that hitpoints for the sake of hitpoints isn't an optimized choice but a serious lack of hitpoints leaves you in the ground.

Personally, I advise at least a 10 in dex/con/wis just so your saves don't suffer.

Also, many handbooks were not written with optimizing in mind. In addition, many handbooks (which can but doesn't necessarily overlap with the previous category of "many handbooks") were written by people who are completely convinced that big damage is the best way to kill people and big hitpoints will make you live longer.

[eggynack]

HP are great. They're just not always worth the cost. If you're spending a feat for HP, through improved toughness for example, that's not worth the loss in build resources. However, constitution is relatively cheap. You're basically never going to get anything from stats that isn't a quantitative bonus anyway, so a particularly useful quantitative bonus is worthwhile. It's nearly always going to be a secondary stat though, because your primary stat is usually going to provide something like a qualitative bonus, like spell slots or an increase to your ability to stab things, which is presumably your core competency in that case. I don't really know where you found such an implication that HP is bad though. It's not. It's just often worse than other things you could be doing.

[Gnaeus]

There's a general assumption (imo) in the playground that hit points aren't really an optimized choice especially at higher levels. You don't really need hit points because you'll have DR and miss chance, etc. and one ever thinks healing is a good idea.

Healing is a fantastic idea. It just isn't usually a good thing to do in combat (since in many cases, the enemy can just do that much damage again on his turn, so just kill him), and you don't usually need to spend many resources on it since it can be done quite cheaply by a large number of classes or anyone with UMD. I can't think of anyone who doesn't think it is a good idea to heal any damage you took between fights.

[TheIronGolem]

It's not "Con good, hitpoints bad", it's "hitpoints good, Con better".

[Silva Stormrage]

Ya its not like HP is BAD. It's just inefficient to advance it pretty much anyway except for con.

Feats especially are really expensive for the amount they give. And also the thing about optimization and hit points isn't that a wizard with 80 hit points isn't that much weaker than a wizard with 100 hit points. Its that a wizard can have 80 hit points and the fighter can have 400 hit points and that won't really make a difference in gap in their power level. Or at least thats how I always saw it.

[Namfuak]

Usually handbooks also assume you are starting at low level, where +2-+6 HP is more likely to be the difference between a OHKO and scraping by with 1 life. In addition, generally the classes that have the least HP from HD are also the ones that are the most SAD - spellcasters. Thus, generally they only need to invest in one stat and can allocate their second or third best to con without any significant loss (with the second possibly being dex if they want to do touch spells). The ones with the most HP from HD tend to be melee classes, who will of course be expecting to be hit, even if they are a squishy rogue. As I mentioned first, at low levels there is no real room for defenses besides HP and AC, so if you get hit you are taking the full extent of the damage.

Another thing to consider is the opportunity cost of investing your better rolls/stat allocations into con versus into other non-critical stats. The penalty for failing a reflex save is generally that you take damage, with the same being true of losing a point or two of AC. Failing a will save becomes more serious later on, but by then you should be adding to that save through items anyway. Generally, neither charisma nor strength is inherently useful in combat unless you have a reason to use them, so for a character that isn't interested in them based on class they are safe to dump. Thus, con seems to generally come out ahead of other non-class related stats without considering the HP gain, so the fact that it gives you that HP is additively useful.

[Red Fel]

It's really a question of priorities; HP is important, but rarely a priority.

Here's an example. Your PC is facing a baddie that deals a flat X damage every round. You can spend a round healing Y damage, or dealing damage. With me so far?

If X > Y, you're already operating at a loss. You'll never heal as quickly as he can kill you, so you have to drop him fast. If Y > X, you can out-heal his damage. However, heals (wand charges, spell slots, potions) are a finite resource; assuming his damage comes from his basic attack, he can do this all day. Further, barring temporary HP, your HP has an upper limit; there's no point to out-healing the damage beyond that. So it's better to put him in the ground. Either way, it's more efficient to simply bury the baddie and move on.

So stat-wise, people will generally prioritize a stat with offensive function over HP. "Offensive function" doesn't mean pure damage, for instance; casters may prioritize their bonus-daily-spells stat. Alternatively, people will prioritize a stat that prevents attacks from connecting, or boosts saves.

With regard to Con specifically, others have mentioned it, but I'd like to put a different spin on it. The question suggests that you can emphasize HP or Con. But while gaining bonus HP merely gains you bonus HP, gaining Con gains you HP as well. It also improves your Fort save and your Concentration checks. It also acts as a buffer between you and your Con drained corpse.

Put it another way - if you return a product at the store, would you prefer store credit that can only be spent there, or cash you can spend anywhere? HP gets you HP. Con gets you HP and more.

[Stux]

Not taking damage at all will always be a priority over being able to absorb damage or healing damage you've taken (for the vast majority of builds). There are a few ways to achieve that - miss chances, high AC, good old just killing the damn thing before it gets a hit in against you.

Therefore your most precious and limited resources (such as feats) will go in to one of these types of areas. However you still need a reasonable amount of HP, because sometimes you will take damage. That given you want to increase your HP in the least resource intensive way, and that begins with not dumping Con. A static Con bonus will scale up the number of HP you get as you level up, so is generally optimal over a static HP increase.

Consider also that most builds are either melee (and so will get hit a lot more) or are SAD (and so can easily dump other stats). Either way, Con ends up getting a decent score.

[erikun]

Hit points are such a poor option to defeat an opponent simply because of how easily is it to increase CON. A +6 CON item isn't a poor choice, and gives +60 HP at 20th level. It isn't difficult to have 20 CON with little focus on it, which gives a big +100 HP buffer. Compared to what HP classes get by default (50 HP for Wizard 20) and you can see why this HP-buff is so large.

You can probably also see why the standard one-handed longsword, at 1d8+10 damage or so, is so pathetic.

Note that HP damage isn't considered bad, and at several hundred an attack it can certainly eliminate opponents just fine. It's that other options are generally more versatile, and requires less optimization (dedicated leap attack pouncer VS memorize Solid Fog today). If you're focusing on damage, a lot of times you see entire builds dedicated to that single focus - including spellcasting builds dedicated to dealing damage (mailman).


Healing being suboptimal is a completely different issue, due to in-combat healing being such a poor comparison to damage from a single opponent. This doesn't mean that all healing is bad. Heal, persisted Lessor Vigor, and out of combat wands of Cure Light Wounds are generally highly recommended. Healing is especially practical at low levels, which ambushed or when a big/focused attack has taken a lot of HP out of someone. However, a lot of times a character has a lot better survival chances simply by stopping/killing whatever is damaging them than by trying to restore HP.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hit Points aren't bad. The thing is that Hit Points aren't worth scarce build resources. In other words, levels or feats.

This isn't always the case but it is true as a general rule.

The issue with Hit Points is that at low levels and even against low optimization opponents, you will die to one bit of bad luck on attack or damage rolls. You just can't really push your HP high enough (well FMI Elan Psion with maxed Int and all of his feats on Psionic Talent + Psionic Body can do it, but that is an edge case) to survive one unlucky hit.

At higher levels, even mid to lowish optimization enemies are going to consistently kill you with one to three hits. I mean take something that is pretty low op, a CL 15 Wizard casting a maximized fireball using a Rod of Maximize. You make your Reflex save, you still take 45 damage. Now take an ECL 15 Fighter with 22 Con (14 base, +2 Inherent, +6 Item). On average such a fighter will have 177 HP. Successfully saving against that one fireball still cost the Fighter a little over a quarter of his total full health. A failed save means that half his health is gone.

So the Wizard goes Maximized Fireball + Quickened Maximized Fireball and has, say, 26 Int (16 base, +6 item, +4 Inherent) along with Spell Focus: Evocation. Now the save DC on those Fireballs is 22 (10 base, +3 level, +8 Int, +1 spell focus). Let's say that the Fighter has managed 20 Dex and thus has a Reflex save of +10.

That means that he needs a 12 or better to make his saves. The odds of two successful saves is approximately 20%. In this best case scenario the Fighter still looses half of his total health in one round. The odds of two failed saves are approximately 30%, in which case the Fighter is now in the negatives and dying. The rest of the time the fighter is down three quarters of his health.

Note how abysmally low op this all is.

---
In a higher optimization environment HP is even more screwed as damage pretty much always outpaces possible HP gain until, eventually, the entire situation does a complete one eighty and Hide Life comes on line and makes HP totally irrelevant for pretty much everybody.

There are, again, edge cases where HP optimization is, to a degree, viable. The FMI Gray Elf Wizard is a classic example. Running 34 Int (16 base, all points into it, +5 Inherent, +6 Headband), that single feat nets you 240 HP over what 10 Con would get you (and it can potentially be a far greater swing if, for example, you are running 6 or lower Con and 38 Int as middle aged). In real world terms that is two decent optimization front line melee attacks that you can now tank. That is two Maximized Orbs that you can now tank (where as before you could maybe tank one if you were lucky).

In mid-high op luck is still a factor and you will eventually end up hit for whatever reason. Having that buffer can be, quite literally, a life saver; but that buffer needs to be measured not in HP but in expected number of additional attacks that it will let you eat.

---
As for Con, I tend to find that most guides and advice over value it. First off, if you plan on going Necropolitan then it is pointless and that comes on line at second level.

Ignoring that though, Con contributes to what are generally fairly unspectacular skills, Fort Saves, and HP along with a few other incidentals. Con damage is also, outside of Poisons, fairly rare when compared to other types of ability damage.

Saves are generally something that you either want to negate the need for or be making upwards of 80% of the time against expected opposition. In addition to that, expected Con score is in the low to mid twenties. At best it generally works out as around a +6 to Fort saves. Note that with a good fort save at ECL 20 a 19 on your Fort save will only succeed against a DC of 37.

Wail of the Banshee cast by a 34 Int Wizard has a base DC of 31. That means you are making it 40% of the time. The other 60% of the time you just die. With a bad Fort save class that same Con score means that you only make the DC 31 save on a 19 or 20.

So how far are you willing to push your Con up to deal with Fort saves?

Sure this ignores items like Cloaks of Resistance and other save boosters but it is also ignoring ways to amp the save DC.

Generally you are better off grabbing a White Raven Crown for Mind Over Body. Or casting Moment of Prescience so that you can get a massive Insight bonus on the save. Or casting Surge of Fortune so that you can guarantee a natural 20. Or using Aura of Perfect Order so that you can take 11 on the save and then plan around that. Or getting a luck re-roll. Or buying a Contingent Time Regression set to trigger on a failed Fort save if you really care.

The other thing is that Fort saves tend to only kill you. Death is cheap in D&D and above relatively low levels it generally means that you are merely incapacitated for the rest of that combat or adventuring day. In high op it tends to mean that you are down for a round or so if you aren't particularly prepared for it.

Will Saves can permanently screw you and your party over. If you get Dominated well then now you are fighting the party and that is a huge power swing. Or a Mind Rape and you are permanently screwed. Or in the lesser cases you are still disabled for the combat and if the party doesn't win then you get killed or captured anyways.

---
I would say that Dex is generally the second most important stat, pretty much across the board. It gives you AC, which is generally better than HP (prevent one attack and you have often prevented two or three times as much HP damage as Improved Toughness would give you in HP gain or an extra 2-4 points in Con would give you in HP), Initiative (which means that you get to act before the attacker and kill him before he tries to do damage to you, again beating out more HP), Reflex Saves (which are often the saves for spells that do direct HP damage and are probably the most rolled save in general play), ranged attack rolls, and a number of useful and generally relevant skills.

[ChaoticDitz]

Did... Did Tippy just give an extremely intelligent but otherwise perfectly normal answer addressing things we can all relate to, using no explicit RAW readings and even giving examples of how it works out in a LOW-OP environment!?

... *slow clap*

In his holy sovereignty, Emperor Tippy has had pity on us and finally willfully lowered his manner of articulation to our level. Truly, I am humbled by his graciousness. I thought his pride left him incapable of such courtesy.

Or basically, a long way of saying Yippy Tipperz has answered your question and even the expected questions that haven't been asked yet, /thread

[Silva Stormrage]

Did... Did Tippy just give an extremely intelligent but otherwise perfectly normal answer addressing things we can all relate to, using no explicit RAW readings and even giving examples of how it works out in a LOW-OP environment!?

... *slow clap*

In his holy sovereignty, Emperor Tippy has had pity on us and finally willfully lowered his manner of articulation to our level. Truly, I am humbled by his graciousness. I thought his pride left him incapable of such courtesy.

Or basically, a long way of saying Yippy Tipperz has answered your question and even the expected questions that haven't been asked yet, /thread

Psh thats just mean :smalltongue: He doesn't do the absurd TO in EVERY thread. Just most :smallbiggrin:

[Mithril Leaf]

I would say that Dex is generally the second most important stat, pretty much across the board. It gives you AC, which is generally better than HP (prevent one attack and you have often prevented two or three times as much HP damage as Improved Toughness would give you in HP gain or an extra 2-4 points in Con would give you in HP), Initiative (which means that you get to act before the attacker and kill him before he tries to do damage to you, again beating out more HP), Reflex Saves (which are often the saves for spells that do direct HP damage and are probably the most rolled save in general play), ranged attack rolls, and a number of useful and generally relevant skills.

Reserves of Strength Polymorph Any Object into a Gloom. If you're a wizard, persistent Draconic Polymorph into one.

[TuggyNE]

Psh thats just mean :smalltongue: He doesn't do the absurd TO in EVERY thread. Just most :smallbiggrin:

Well, when he's not TOing he's usually high-PO, occasionally dipping into mid-op. It's refreshing to see that yes, he really does have some idea what relatively low-op looks like.

[Curmudgeon]

Hit points are OK, but not needing them is better. I frequently use CON as a dump stat for my Rogues when I'm getting Hide in Plain Sight. If you can never be targeted (because you're never seen), and also have evasion to avoid most area effects, you rarely need to worry about hit points. You do need to have some care for those effects which normally involve Fortitude saves; a racial choice like a Lesser Dust Para-Genasi (Lesser mod from Player's Guide to Faerûn; race from Dragon # 297) is good because they don't breathe. Then add something like a Periapt of Proof against Poison when you're getting up to the levels where you might encounter Cloudkill and the like.

[Godskook]

There's a general assumption (imo) in the playground that hit points aren't really an optimized choice especially at higher levels. You don't really need hit points because you'll have DR and miss chance, etc. and one ever thinks healing is a good idea.

On the other hand 90% of handbooks and build recommendations place con as your 2nd most important stat. Understandably Con dictates fort saves and a few skills but those hardly take precedence over things you could do with incressed scores in other attributes and by and large it feels kind of like a bit of hypocrisy to me.

1.This is the general assumption for backline casters. Melee builds put a higher priority on physical stats.

2.Backline casters generally only need their casting stat high among mental stats. Otherwise, Int for skill points isn't that huge, you have a high base save for will saves so Wis isn't important either, and Cha is widely considered the trash stat unless your build focuses on it. On top of that, Str is also a dump stat. Which leaves casting stat, Dex and Con. Dex only matters offensively if you're doing ranged touch attacks, and defensively, it usually only matters for things that target your HP anyway. Con matters a lot against poisons because unlike every other score, 0 Con = Dead. Improves your fort save, which is useful for things that don't always target your HP, and it improves your HP. A strong Con simply protects you better than a strong Dex, but not so much that you'd want to neglect either.

3.You're taking it as an absolute when its really a relativity thing. In general, HP is a suboptimal choice, but in specific contexts, its the best you're going to get. One of these is in allocating stats.

[KnotKnormal]

I personally like to throw on as much HP as i can and back it up with DR. Unfortunately this means your character will usually become almost primarily a meat shield with out being able to deal much in the way of consistent high damage. I personally like walking up to the dragon having him hit me a few dozen times, brushing myself off and doing it again.

best build I ever had, had almost 600 HP with DR 15/- which was really nice as i walked through the hall of murder holes in that particular campaign. (if I can find it I'll post it for you guys if you are interested)

My opinion is that HP and con in general helps with survivability of a character I've only used Con as a dump stat once and the character died in the first session.

Good topic.

[Haldir]

Hitpoint damage is the least effective means of neutralizing a target. You can almost always get more bang for your buck targeting a weak save, using ability score damage, or negative levels.

[lsfreak]

I think the short and sweet of what's been mentioned is:
Hit points are great, but Con is usually the only way to get them without sacrificing something better.

For being second-best in many guides, I would attribute that to SAD characters not needing any other stats, so higher Con is not cutting into better things, while most MAD classes are classes that are likely to end up face-to-face with enemies, so more health is absolutely welcome. I'd agree with Tippy, though, that in generally I actually seem to run across the idea that it's Main Stat > Dex >= Con, if one of them isn't already the main stat.

(Note that there are some other ways that are also very highly regarded, such as Linked Vigor.)

[Emperor Tippy]

1.This is the general assumption for backline casters. Melee builds put a higher priority on physical stats.
Even in melee builds I tend to find Con overrated. You really just can't reliably push it enough higher to stop more than (maybe) one extra, fairly average, attack. I mean 30 Con (which is a +6 Item, +5 Tome, one level up point, and 18 base) is only 200 extra HP at 20 HD, at level 1 an 18 Con is a whole 4 extra HP. The difference between 10, 12, 14, and 16 HP at that level is virtually non existent as 8 to 9 damage per attack is fairly normal. When you start talking about the rest of the level range and more reasonably likely Con scores this becomes even worse.


2.Backline casters generally only need their casting stat high among mental stats. Otherwise, Int for skill points isn't that huge, you have a high base save for will saves so Wis isn't important either, and Cha is widely considered the trash stat unless your build focuses on it. On top of that, Str is also a dump stat. Which leaves casting stat, Dex and Con. Dex only matters offensively if you're doing ranged touch attacks, and defensively, it usually only matters for things that target your HP anyway. Con matters a lot against poisons because unlike every other score, 0 Con = Dead. Improves your fort save, which is useful for things that don't always target your HP, and it improves your HP. A strong Con simply protects you better than a strong Dex, but not so much that you'd want to neglect either.
Dex gets you Initiative. That is the most important of the combat stats for a caster. AC can be rendered less necessary in any number of ways (miss chance, immunities, etc.), AB can be boosted by spells (Divine Power, True Strike, Wraithstrike, etc.), Damage is generally entirely independent of attributes for casters, Saves are something that you either become immune to or are going to fail anyways thanks to bad Fort meaning that the best case you can expect is maybe +14 on a save at ECL 20 (against DC's of 30+) and you generally have magic to boost saves (Surge of Fortune, Moment of Prescience, etc.).

The first turn is the most important turn in any combat and does more to set the tone of the fight than anything else. I would go so far as to say that a competent character should expect to generally dominate about 80% of the encounters that he acts first in. Added to that, going before the enemy means a flat out one attack (minimum) that your enemy isn't making that combat, or in other words that is anywhere from ten to two hundred or more damage that you aren't taking.

AC is much the same. Every attack that fails to connect by your Dex amount is effectively equal to max value FMI in terms of HP most of the time.

As for Fort saves, they actually aren't all that common when compared to Reflex or even Will saves. Added to that is that, for casters, you can usually counter things that would require a Fort save in any number of ways.

[Hurnn]

There are, again, edge cases where HP optimization is, to a degree, viable. The FMI Gray Elf Wizard is a classic example. Running 34 Int (16 base, all points into it, +5 Inherent, +6 Headband), that single feat nets you 240 HP over what 10 Con would get you (and it can potentially be a far greater swing if, for example, you are running 6 or lower Con and 38 Int as middle aged). In real world terms that is two decent optimization front line melee attacks that you can now tank. That is two Maximized Orbs that you can now tank (where as before you could maybe tank one if you were lucky).


Quick Question. What Feat is FMI in this context?

[Emperor Tippy]

Quick Question. What Feat is FMI in this context?

Faerie Mysteries Initiate.

[Hurnn]

Faerie Mysteries Initiate.

Thank you sir.

So it seams that there is no down time, but you could in theory be interupted litteraly in the last second and lose the bonus HP, until you redid it.

[Invader]

Healing is a fantastic idea. It just isn't usually a good thing to do in combat (since in many cases, the enemy can just do that much damage again on his turn, so just kill him), and you don't usually need to spend many resources on it since it can be done quite cheaply by a large number of classes or anyone with UMD. I can't think of anyone who doesn't think it is a good idea to heal any damage you took between fights.

My intent was healing in combat, poor communication on my part. Changed the op for clarity.

[eggynack]

My intent was healing in combat, poor communication on my part. Changed the op for clarity.
Well, healing in combat is a bad idea, for the reasons mentioned. Most of the healing spells that exist don't even heal enough to make up for one of your enemy's rounds, and D&D 3.5 favors offense over defense to a high degree. You also run into the issue where an ally with one HP can accomplish the same stuff as an ally with full HP, so you're not having any immediate tactical impact on combat. Once again, HP can be important, but it isn't a priority, and just as it isn't worth major strategic build resources, like feats or levels, it is also not worth major tactical action resources, like standard actions in combat. If you can do something else while healing (like with a crusader), or otherwise reduce the action cost of healing (like with quicken spell), it gets somewhat better as you're actually making some progress towards ending the encounter. The latter solution might be too expensive from a day to day strategic cost angle though, as high level slots are too important to be filled with low impact healing spells.

[lsfreak]

Do a simple comparison of damage output versus healing output, and it quickly becomes apparent why healing in combat is bad. And then keep in mind that dealing damage to an unhindered enemy is worse than using a spell to disable someone completely, or teleport away, and so on.

At level one, a melee with a greatsword and Str 16 is dropping an average of 11 damage a hit, while your biggest Cure is hitting for a full half of that on average (add to it that Cure is horribly unreliable thanks to using 1d8 instead of, say, 2d4). Even as a cleric with Str 6, you can pick up a greatsword and put out more hurt than you can heal. Now consider that Str 16 isn't the be-all-end-all of melee, but the very lowest you could call competent. A (lion totem) whirling frenzy orc barbarian is dropping two attacks of 17 damage each at that level.

Now take level 9. Fifth-level maneuvers deal +6d6 damage, so a greatsword is likely dropping ~40 damage a hit, a rogue with Craven is sitting vaguely around 30 damage without other optimization but is getting 2-4 attacks a round (or more), and our friend the orc barbarian from the first example is sitting at three attacks of ~20 damage a piece without any gear or feats at all. Meanwhile, the hardest-hitting Cure is still at a mere 30 damage, and that's only if you've got a couple CL-boosters. You have to be pulling DMM:Quicken shenanigans simply to keep up with the damage from a single barely-optimized NPC. You could instead be using your spell slots to drop Walls of Stone to trap or separate whoever's attacking, or Commanding everyone to stop for a round instead of healing a single attack's worth of damage.

At 11th level the heal spell comes into play, which is the first time a healing spell can actually keep up. Jumping from 18+CL healing per spell to 10*CL per spell helps a lot, and on top of that, it removes many of the conditions that can cripple someone in a fight. And heal is worth casting, but it's pretty much the only healing spell that is. And even it can have problems keeping up against some moderately-optimized builds, let alone highly optimized ones, and comes into even more problems when it stops scaling.

---------------
It's not that healing itself is a bad idea in combat. It's that the tools given to us by the rules are worse than any other appropriate action you can take, save a few token examples.

[Spuddles]

Well, when he's not TOing he's usually high-PO, occasionally dipping into mid-op. It's refreshing to see that yes, he really does have some idea what relatively low-op looks like.

Tippy just really understands the game. It's not realt that outlandish that he prefers high OP games; most people that are good at something like playing on hard mode.

[Urpriest]

As others have said, hp aren't bad per se, if they can be gotten efficiently. A handbook for Incarnate is going to mention Vitality Belt, and a handbook for a Psionic class is going to mention Vigor (and Share Pain, and Psicrystals) because those are relatively low-resource ways to get a large amount of hp. Toughness on the other hand, or even Improved Toughness, is just swallowed up in the variance of attacks, as is the hp favored class bonus in Pathfinder.

[broodax]

It appears the in depth examples here are far too focused on play at level 20, which (almost) never happens.

At level 2, having a 14 CON vs a 10 CON is a huge swing in hit points.

A wizard with a 10 CON can be disabled by one arrow from a Longbow. A fighter with 10 CON is disabled by a crit from a bugbear, or by a barely above average roll on a hit from a Thoqqua, or a pounce from a Leopard.

So, yes, I high CON can probably only mitigate against maybe one hit. But when that is the difference between 1 hit, and 2? That is a pretty spectacular difference.

[Oko and Qailee]

one ever thinks healing in combat is a good idea.


The problem with Healing combat is:

a) You either heal less damage than enemies/you deal so it's pointless and futile
b) You heal more than enemies deal, but optimized healers heal waaaay too much because people don't have 400HP.

[Phelix-Mu]

The game ruleset was largely about combat mechanics. As time went on, the methods of killing and the ways to combine tricks and such pushed damage higher and higher. Healing was only so good to begin with, and it was practically rocket tag at many levels even back in core. But the ways to get hp have been more or less fixed from the beginning.

Basically, in a game of "kill the opponent," time spent not killing the opponent in suboptimal.

That said, with decent teamwork, in-combat healing can still be okay, especially at a narrative level. Not as efficient as everyone launching their best rockets, but, hey, not everyone wants to carry rockets, and the tank will likely be glad of a couple extra rounds of being able to tank whatever.

Finally, the melee beatstick or other damage source can usually kill almost anything at a pretty decent clip. Healing often isn't really necessary until the main baddie is down (although a clever DM may engineer things so this isn't the case).

[Hurnn]

there are times where healing in combat is a good thing, boss hass minions that will drop your dps guy, comming up after you but you cant kill them, heal the dps guy is clearly the right call, party got nailed by aoe dammage Mass cure X may not be a bad idea because it leaves a lot of people in that area they can potentialy be dropped. monster does 50 hp per round ther guy he is hitting has 120 you can heal 70, heal him before the bosses 3rd hit but after the second. But in general you can do something more productive. At low level Aid is just as effective as cure light and gives bonuses.

[Story]

First off, if you plan on going Necropolitan then it is pointless and that comes on line at second level.

One quibble: How can you become Necropolitan at level 2? As I read it, you need to be at least level 3 to not die in the process, because you have to pay the 1k xp after losing a level.


Reserves of Strength Polymorph Any Object into a Gloom. If you're a wizard, persistent Draconic Polymorph into one.

Draconic Polymorph has a 20HD cap but Glooms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm) have 25HD. Even with ROS, it's still not enough. You could Shapechange into one though.

[Invader]

The problem with Healing is thhat is:

a) You either heal less damage than enemies/you deal so it's pointless and futile
b) You heal more than enemies deal, but optimized healers heal waaaay too much because people don't have 400HP.

I'm not advocating that healing in combat is a good thing.

[Lightlawbliss]

One quibble: How can you become Necropolitan at level 2? As I read it, you need to be at least level 3 to not die in the process, because you have to pay the 1k xp after losing a level.
...

lvl 2 with some xp extra.

[Spuddles]

lvl 2 with some xp extra.

You lose the extra xp when you lose a level. Level loss always sets you to half way between the last level. So if you had 2999xp, level loss would put you at 500xp.

[Urpriest]

Draconic Polymorph has a 20HD cap but Glooms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm) have 25HD. Even with ROS, it's still not enough. You could Shapechange into one though.

That's only if you interpret ROS to be capped by its +3 CL bonus. Many people think the uncapping and the +3 CL are separate effects.

[Story]

That requires a rather tortured interpretation of the words. It's certainly not the most obvious interpretation or the intended one. But whatever, I've never seen RoS used in an actual game anyway.