TWF Hand Crossbow Build Optimizeation Help Needed

[KnotKnormal]

Ok working on a build that needs a bit of help so far I've only cracked open the PHB but books allowed are PHB 1 & 2, the Complete Books, the Source Book of Feats and the Spell Compendium. The inspiration for this build in Revolver Ocelot from Metal Gear Solid (Really want to do his juggle 3 gun Russian Roulette Example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRk33QL_Fjo) )

It's a Level 10 starting build so please Level past that. Not concerned with skills right now. 30 point buy. Im not against spell casting for this build but it has to be worth my while.

So far I have (Base Build with no Magic Itms
Human

Stats
str 8
dex 16
con 12
int 14
wis 12
cha 14

Level based stat bumps both go to Dex for a total of 20

ranger 6/fighter 4
Ranger TWF Tree
Ranger Varients
Arcane Hunter
Champion of the Wild
Spiritual Connection

Feats
Exotic Weapon Prof (hand crossbow)
Rapid Shot
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Reload
Weapon Focus (hand crossbow)
Weapon Spec. (hand crossbow)
Crossbow Sniper
Ranged Weapon Master

I think the combat strategy for this build is get with in 30 feet, unload, then run away ASAP. I get a total of 6 attacks @ +14/+14/+9 with the use of rapid shot, and they deal 1d4+7 damage. this has me dealing anywhere from 48-66 dmg (average 57) which is completely slightly less destroyed by any monster with DR 5 (common in this campaign). This leaves me very easy to hit and squishy to boot. AC of 16 with and HP 67 (following 1/2 +1 house rule) My saves are really the only redeeming feature Fort +10 Ref +10 and it's a fighter build so Will is always crap.

Please help make this better.
I put myself at your mercy GITP, guide my hand.

Have Fun!!!

[Nihilarian]

First off Rogue gets automatic proficiency with the hand crossbow and Sneak Attack can be good.

I'd recommend taking Hand Crossbow Focus and Crossbow Sniper instead of Rapid Reload and Weapon Focus.

[KnotKnormal]

First off Rogue gets automatic proficiency with the hand crossbow and Sneak Attack can be good.

I'd recommend taking Hand Crossbow Focus and Crossbow Sniper instead of Rapid Reload and Weapon Focus.

I thought of using rouge but they only get 1/2 BAB which means that I'd be sacking my chance to hit for situational extra damage.

Thanks for the tip oon the Feats though.

[Sir Chuckles]

I thought of using rouge but they only get 1/2 BAB which means that I'd be sacking my chance to hit for situational extra damage.

Thanks for the tip oon the Feats though.

Rouge gets no BaB. It is an inanimate object.

Rogues, however, get 3/4ths BaB. Not as high as a Ranger's full BaB, with a Lv10 build, +10/+5 vs. +7/+2 isn't as big a deal as you'd think, especially when magic items come into play. Also, Sneak Attack is going to give a lot more damage potential.
The Quick Loading WSA (+1, Magic Item Compendium) will save you the feat, plus gives the crossbow a 100 bolt capacity. And you get to choose which bolt loads.

If the Ranger's TWF tree is your concern, you can still easily have it by losing Weapon Focus and, since you're starting at Lv10 with the WBL to afford dual +2 weapons, Rapid Reload. There's your two feats for TWF.

[Haldir]

Skip the inefficient Rogue levels and get Crossbow Sniper, boost Dex, and use your hail of arrows apply 1/2 Dex to damage over and over. If you're going to sacrifice BAB do it for something with caster levels, Ranger has very nice archery based spells, as do Druids and Clerics.

Take a small sized creature, spend wealth on a medium size riding animal, and move while making full attacks. Combine with Scout and Swift Hunter and you have a more reliable source of bonus damage dice with a much smaller BAB sacrifice, and Ranger spellcasting you can progress via prestige class.

[TmasterT]

if dragon mag is allowed, you need to take targeteer ACF in dragon mag #310
it gives you 2 exotic weapon profs for free, and also 3 unique feats that are all good for ranged attacks. take xbow sniper, hand xbow focus (drow of the underdark).

[KnotKnormal]

if dragon mag is allowed, you need to take targeteer ACF in dragon mag #310
it gives you 2 exotic weapon profs for free, and also 3 unique feats that are all good for ranged attacks. take xbow sniper, hand xbow focus (drow of the underdark).

I'm not allowed to use under dark, I put the books available in the first post.

[Thrair]

How are you intending to handle reloads? Weapon cords got nerfed substantially, but you can compensate somewhat by having a Glove of Storing for one hand and a corded weapon on the other. Still not efficient, though.

[KnotKnormal]

I asked my DM if I could make them repeating with 6 bolt barrels (like a revolver for the sake of flair) He graciously agreed. They do not have a reload lever, and reload automatically. (DM home brew tech in game, not arguing) As for loading both with new barrels in a single round I was going to do 2 gloves of storing, he said reloading both would count as a move action as apposed to the infinite list of free actions. I'm personally ok with not getting my full attack every 3rd round, as I'll probably be using the standard as a move to run away.

[Thrair]

Hm. Techically you can't have 2 gloves of storing, because a single glove takes up the hand slot item. And unlike rings, you only have one magic item for "Hands" slot, even if the description says it's only on one hand. Though your DM's totally free to overule that, if he wants.

Either way, I'd still recommend against 2 gloves, as there's a cheaper method that saves you around 10k gold:

Have the glove of storing in your main hand and slap a weapon cord on your off-hand crossbow.

Actions look like this:
1) Free action to store main-hand crossbow.
2) Reload off-hand crossbow with your main hand as free action (Rapid Reload).
3) Drop off-hand crossbow as free action.
4) Unstore Main Hand Crossbow and reload it with your offhand.
5) Snap reloaded off-hand crossbow back up with weapon cord as a move action that does not provoke.
6) Ready to rumble.


Same result (both reloaded), save almost 10k gold.


Unless you meant he's letting your reload both crossbows as a move action, without any finangling with cords/gloves/etc. In which case, you owe him your first-born child. And you should be afraid, for a generous DM is hiding something.

[Nirhael]

Technically, they're Repeating Hand Crossbows, you can't use Rapid Reload with them. :smalltongue:

[KnotKnormal]

Unless you meant he's letting your reload both crossbows as a move action, without any finangling with cords/gloves/etc. In which case, you owe him your first-born child. And you should be afraid, for a generous DM is hiding something.

Lol, no, it was with the 2 gloves, but I like your idea better that's 10k that I can use to make the crossbows better. Thanks

[KnotKnormal]

Technically, they're Repeating Hand Crossbows, you can't use Rapid Reload with them. :smalltongue:

Do really have to get into the details of what the rapid reload feat actually applies to, or can we assume that it used solely for the purpose of swapping the barrel bolt clips.

[Nirhael]

Do really have to get into the details of what the rapid reload feat actually applies to, or can we assume that it used solely for the purpose of swapping the barrel bolt clips.

Since I can't really tell whether you're being sarcastic or not, I'll just post these here:


Crossbow, Repeating

Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.


Rapid Reload

The time required for you to reload your chosen type of crossbow is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow) or a move action (for a heavy crossbow). Reloading a crossbow still provokes an attack of opportunity.

A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, or a full-round action to reload a heavy crossbow.

So even if Rapid Reload does get applied to your Repeating Hand Crossbows, at best, you'll still need two Move Actions to reload them since that's the "conversion ratio".

If that was sarcasm, then I apologize for this useless information.

[Thrair]

Well, he's mentioned the crossbows are slightly homebrewwed to not need the lever.

And the description of Rapid Reload doesn't seem to specify how it interacts with Repeating crossbows, as it just lists Hand, Light, and Heavy crossbows.

Although "that's the conversion ratio" does hold up reasonably well in RAI, as how it applies to firearms is to drop the action required by one step. So perhaps it applies to revolver chamber crossbows, too.

*EDIT* Corrected a typo: I meant RAI, not RAW.

[Nirhael]

Went with gray since I was nitpicking, wasn't sure if KnotKnormal was asking a genuine question so answered it anyway.

[Haldir]

Regardless, you'll want to consult this thread.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=v16at8aeie1dk9o2c6tdbhiv44&topic=642.msg15068#msg15068

Should take you right to the Crossbow section.

[Thrair]

Ah hell. Apologies, my information is probably largely incorrect. I was still in a Pathfinder frame of mine. But you're talking about 3.5 builds.

Not sure if 3.5 even HAS weapon cords. Though the item slot restriction would still apply to the glove of storing.

[KnotKnormal]

Went with gray since I was nitpicking, wasn't sure if KnotKnormal was asking a genuine question so answered it anyway.

I was being sarcastic, forgot it doesn't translate through text very well. But is that serious? a full round to change a cartridge is pretty extreme. If it takes 6 seconds for you to change a clip then you need to look for another weapon to use. sorry, ranting a bit. thanks for the heads up for possible problems though.

[Sir Chuckles]

You could still drop Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec, as well as Precise Shot.
The Weapon X line doesn't do all that much (+1 to hit and +2 damage is a terribly inefficient boost when it comes to feats), and Precise Shot isn't doing much unless you're using it to qualify for something. Like Ranged Pin/Disarm/Sunder (All in the Complete Warrior).

You could swap those three feats out for Dodge, Mobility, and Shot on the Run. Seems more "Ocelot" than a hand crossbow psuedo-sniper.

[KnotKnormal]

You could still drop Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec, as well as Precise Shot.
The Weapon X line doesn't do all that much (+1 to hit and +2 damage is a terribly inefficient boost when it comes to feats), and Precise Shot isn't doing much unless you're using it to qualify for something. Like Ranged Pin/Disarm/Sunder (All in the Complete Warrior).

You could swap those three feats out for Dodge, Mobility, and Shot on the Run. Seems more "Ocelot" than a hand crossbow psuedo-sniper.

I was thinking that too but i want to hold onto the the Weapon Xs right now so i can get Ranged Weapon Mastery.

And i agree with dropping precise shot but i feel as though i might be shooting into melee alot due to the fact that the rest of the party is melee characters. 1 fighter, 1 barbarian fighter, 1 dervish, 1 master of many forms, 1 insta-kill rouge, and a cleric. then there is this guy.

Ill have to look it over.

[KnotKnormal]

So I was messing with the build again last night and I change race to human, this gives me an extra feat, so I went with ranged weapons master. unfortunately some stats dropped, I'll make the changes in the build above. Thank you to everyone who has helped so far.

[Sir Chuckles]

Now what about magic items?
Those are important.

And do you need the 12 Con as a Human? You no longer have the -2 from being an Elf, so there's that. It could bump your Dex.
And I really can't see why you'd need 14 Charisma.

[KnotKnormal]

Now what about magic items?
Those are important.

And do you need the 12 Con as a Human? You no longer have the -2 from being an Elf, so there's that. It could bump your Dex.
And I really can't see why you'd need 14 Charisma.

Haven't even started thinking of that yet, first off I'll need 2 gloves of storing (DM permitting), or one glove and something for the other crossbow.

both crossbows will be masterwork with a +1 enchantment of some sort, not sure yet I have to look through the list again.

Not sure what else to get so if you have any other ideas, please feel free to include them.

As for the stats I'd like to keep the 12 in con for the extra 10 HP and Cha to try to better personify Ocelot, He may be a raging D**** but he has a decent CHA, plus I need for intimidate.

[Sir Chuckles]

Haven't even started thinking of that yet, first off I'll need 2 gloves of storing (DM permitting), or one glove and something for the other crossbow.

both crossbows will be masterwork with a +1 enchantment of some sort, not sure yet I have to look through the list again.

Not sure what else to get so if you have any other ideas, please feel free to include them.

As for the stats I'd like to keep the 12 in con for the extra 10 HP and Cha to try to better personify Ocelot, He may be a raging D**** but he has a decent CHA, plus I need for intimidate.

Quick Loading
An energy type to increase damage.
Something that overcomes the common DR (What kind of DR is it? Because if it's Gargoyles with DR 5/magic, a +1 weapon gets through that)
You could crit fish with all those attacks, picking up Improved Critical down the line.

As for Ranger...I'm still curious as to why you took Ranger for TWF. Fighter will get you the TWF without the hassle of saying "I'm Ocelot...but I protect nature."
If you're doing it for the little animal dude, Wild Cohort would be a better choice, as the animal is based off your total character level, not Ranger-4.
Darn shame you're not allowed access to the Dragon Magazine. Targeteer or Exoticist Fighter variants would be perfect.

EDIT:
WBL or something fancy? (I like to give my players double, sometimes triple, WBL. Just to see what they come up with. I'm usually disappointed.)

[KnotKnormal]

Quick Loading
An energy type to increase damage.
Something that overcomes the common DR (What kind of DR is it? Because if it's Gargoyles with DR 5/magic, a +1 weapon gets through that)
You could crit fish with all those attacks, picking up Improved Critical down the line.

As for Ranger...I'm still curious as to why you took Ranger for TWF. Fighter will get you the TWF without the hassle of saying "I'm Ocelot...but I protect nature."
If you're doing it for the little animal dude, Wild Cohort would be a better choice, as the animal is based off your total character level, not Ranger-4.
Darn shame you're not allowed access to the Dragon Magazine. Targeteer or Exoticist Fighter variants would be perfect.

EDIT:
WBL or something fancy? (I like to give my players double, sometimes triple, WBL. Just to see what they come up with. I'm usually disappointed.)

I was going to do improved crit down the line.

And I picked the ranger for the Skill points, unfortunately there are a lot of skills I want this character to be good at so there is my logic behind that. as for the Animal Companion, I never use them in combat, I prefer them as a utility. Plus the bonus to Reflex saves is nice.

What is WBL?

I've got 49,000GP to spend so
4 +1 hand crossbows (17,600 GP)
1 Frost
1 Flame
1 Shock
1 Sessking

2 Gloves of Storing (20,000 GP)
Cloak of Charisma +2 (4,000 GP)
Dust of Disappearance (3,500 GP)
Standard Adventuring gear (1,000 GP)
TOTAL 46,100 GP