Increasing Size

[RegalKain]

I seem to be posting a lot on these forums lately, my apologies ahead of time if what I'm trying to do seems silly, it's mostly Theory crafting, and I don't think it will ever be used in an actual game. To the point of the thread.

I've been looking for the better part of an hour or two for a way to increase character size at character creation (Let's assume level 5) without any huge LA drawbacks, so far the only two I've found are Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre.

I then stumbled on this very old thread about LA+1 size changes (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/16392/can-i-increase-my-size-with-a-1-template) now they didn't have anything by RAW to back it up that I saw, except in Savage which is 3.0 and a bit muddled at times. So my question to the playgrounders, is there anyway for LA+2 or less to increase your size one step (Small to medium, medium to large.) other then Half-Minotaur, and Half-Ogre, furthermore if there are, what restrictions would that have? Assume it's all done in character creation, any and all sources allowed. Thanks in advance.

[Thurbane]

Can't find a link right at the moment, but there was a Wizards web article about alternate 1/2 fiends - from memory, one was half-goristro, and increased size 1 or 2 categories. It had pretty hefty LA from memory.

[morkendi]

Half giant +1. Size is still medium, but it counts as large when size modifiers are applied. I don't have books with me, but I think you should be able to add a template to it to get another increase. Favored class is psy war, if doing a melee build, toss in that to get expansion. You can augment it to go up 2 more size categories.

[Swaoeaeieu]

if i understand the table from polymorph any object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) right. if the caster turns you into a larger version of yourself it should be permanent.

[Valtu]

Or what about Enlarge Person followed by a Permanency spell? I believe Enlarge Person grants you a bonus to Str but you do take a penalty to Dex.

[infomatic]

Why do you want to increase size? Bonuses or reach?

Goliath has the almost-but-not-quite stature increase that Half-Giant does, but there's a barbarian variant that lets them become actually large during rages.

[Person_Man]

Increasing Size, Effective Size, Unarmed Damage, Reach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777)

That's all the methods I know for 3.0/3.5. There are a few Pathfinder methods that aren't on the list as well, but I haven't had a chance to index them yet.

[Asteron]

Increasing Size, Effective Size, Unarmed Damage, Reach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777)

That's all the methods I know for 3.0/3.5. There are a few Pathfinder methods that aren't on the list as well, but I haven't had a chance to index them yet.

I may have missed it, but I didn't see Righteous Might anywhere on that list...

[Snowbluff]

Increasing Size, Effective Size, Unarmed Damage, Reach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777)

That's all the methods I know for 3.0/3.5. There are a few Pathfinder methods that aren't on the list as well, but I haven't had a chance to index them yet.

It's inaccurate. Battlefist can be used with Mighty Arms; it's not exclusive to warforged.

[Vhaidara]

Half Minotaur Goliath Barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior X

Half Minotaur makes you Large (functionally huge with Powerful Build)

Take the Mountain rage for Goliath Barbarian, then raging makes you actually huge (ECL 3)

Psy Warrior gives you Expansion, which starts by putting you 1 category up (Gargantuan). This occurs at ECL 4.

Once you reach Psywar 7, you can augment Expansion to gain 2 sizes, putting you at Colossal. This occurs at ECL 10 (9, if your DM allows you to buyoff LA)

[RegalKain]

I was unaware you could have spells cast on your during character creation as part of the process that's interesting, wouldn't a Permanency Enlarge Person be weak to dispelling? That seems...kinda flawed, maybe I'm wrong if so my bad.

The reasoning behind it, is as I had another thread, I'm mostly looking for fun and interesting ways to break the Template system, more so myself and the other guy who DMs sometimes in my group, can learn ways to stop players from breaking it, or tweak it to make them not so broken, the last one I did was a Krynn Minotaur Proto-Creature- Dustformed- Incarnate Construct, he has I believe a +12 to Str as an LA 0 I'm just looking for other interesting ways to break the template system to be honest.

The reason I need a size stepup, is if I can work it in, dustform it then Incarnate construct it, you'd wind up Giant sized (IF LArge you go Giant, if Medium or smaller you go Humanoid) then you could qualify for things like Primordial Giant etc, so it's more my musing, no real actual play to get out of it. I was just interested in some ways to increase size, I'd like to avoid anything and everything that is temporary, (Eithier because it's gear, or because it can be dispelled) as that doesn't work for what I'm trying to do. Unless Enlarge Person qualifies you for certain templates, though I don't think it would?

Also anyone have an idea if the Savage Species thing was correct? That you can increase your LA by 1 per size increase?

[Metahuman1]

if i understand the table from polymorph any object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) right. if the caster turns you into a larger version of yourself it should be permanent.

How do you figure that?

[herrhauptmann]

I was unaware you could have spells cast on your during character creation as part of the process that's interesting, wouldn't a Permanency Enlarge Person be weak to dispelling? That seems...kinda flawed, maybe I'm wrong if so my bad.


It is weak to dispelling, unless you pay extra for a higher level wizard to cast it. (Prices always assume bare minimum level)

And it has problems beyond dispelling and suddenly being less effective:
* All your gear enlarges with you. Until you drop your sword (or throw a dagger), then it goes back to normal. Picking it up again doesn't state that it causes your sword to increase to your size again.
* Same should happen with your armor if you ever remove it.
* Let's say the gear you wore when getting the enchantment does resize, but you've been adventuring for 5 levels and finally kill a giant who has better weapons/armor than you do. (Or you go into town and buy better gear that's sized for your new form)
You put your old stuff in your HHH, and put on your new stuff. Then you get dispelled in a fight, and you've suddenly got a weapon and gear that's made for a Large person, while you're now medium. What are you going to do? Fight in your underwear? Or run away for 5 minutes so you can regear? This is worse than just getting dispelled and being less effective.
* You could put 'sizing' on your weapons, but that's an extra cost. One that requires you to wait until you find someone to enchant it for you. Also, with the scaling costs of magic gear, this is absurdly expensive.

Generally, I don't bother with 'permanency' unless it's a buff that's nice to have, but losing it won't suddenly cripple me.

[Eldaran]

I may have missed it, but I didn't see Righteous Might anywhere on that list...

Uh, it's right there on Increasing Actual Size. It's even alphabetized.

[RegalKain]

Snip.

Thanks, that's kinda how I thought it would work, which is why I don't generally use things such as that. I appreciate the clarification though! Reading through Savage Species now to see how they operate it, and see if it really is just LA+1 per size increase, though that seems painfully broken and easy to abuse.

[Swaoeaeieu]

if i understand the table from polymorph any object right. if the caster turns you into a larger version of yourself it should be permanent.How do you figure that?

its has two table in the spell description. for duration factor calculation and one for duration. when you only increase size all the other things stay the same so you get 11 on the duration factor. 11 on the duration table states the effect will be permanent.

that's how i see it. is it wrong?

[herrhauptmann]

its has two table in the spell description. for duration factor calculation and one for duration. when you only increase size all the other things stay the same so you get 11 on the duration factor. 11 on the duration table states the effect will be permanent.

that's how i see it. is it wrong?

Pretty sure you're right.
That's (one way) how people abuse PAO. Cast once to get whatever type creature. Cast again for that same creature, and suddenly it's permanent rather than minutes/level.

[Metahuman1]

That is beautiful.

[Karnith]

its has two table in the spell description. for duration factor calculation and one for duration. when you only increase size all the other things stay the same so you get 11 on the duration factor. 11 on the duration table states the effect will be permanent.

that's how i see it. is it wrong?
Issues of duration aside, you cannot turn into a bigger (size-category-wise) version of yourself via Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm). When you assume the form of a creature through spells based on Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm), of which PaO is one, you take on the natural size of a creature of that kind, and the new form's significant physical qualities must fall within the norms of that creature's kind. Hence, if you turn into e.g. a Human (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#humans), you would assume the normal size of a Human (Medium).
Also, "me but bigger" isn't a creature any more than "me with 10000 Str."
You can assume the form of a larger creature via PaO, however, and it would not be hard to make it permanent. For a normal Humanoid changing into some sort of Giant, you're almost certainly getting same kingdom, same class, and same or lower Intelligence, which would be sufficient to reach a permanent duration. Large-sized Monster Manual Giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm), for example, all have Intelligence scores of 10 or less. The Firbolg (from Monster Manual II) is classic Polymorph form for warriors, only has an Intelligence score of 14, making a permanent PaO fairly easy. The biggest stumbling block would just be making sure that the character has sufficient HD to PaO into the new form.

[Immabozo]

Anthropomorphic baleen whale is 3 HD, no LA size large.
Willing deformity + 1 size, with some drawbacks.
plus the other mentioned ways. But with the above, you can be huge at level 1 (if you get a bonus feat, maybe fighter?)

This character will also be hysterical

[Chronos]

Quoth Keledrath:

Half Minotaur Goliath Barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior X

Half Minotaur makes you Large (functionally huge with Powerful Build)

Take the Mountain rage for Goliath Barbarian, then raging makes you actually huge (ECL 3)No, raging would make you Large, which you already were, so it's a waste. Mountain Rage doesn't increase your size by one step; it just sets it directly to Large, no matter what it was before. It's even possible for it to make you shrink, if you're naturally huge.

[Immabozo]

No, raging would make you Large, which you already were, so it's a waste. Mountain Rage doesn't increase your size by one step; it just sets it directly to Large, no matter what it was before. It's even possible for it to make you shrink, if you're naturally huge.

QFT. It specifies large in the ability. This was a source of a joke build in a thread a while back of being fine sized and then getting mountain rage and painting yourself green and saying "you wont like me when I'm angry"

[Vhaidara]

Well, I guess that drops us to Gargantuan at ECL 7 (6 with buyoff).

[Krobar]

How do you figure that?

You add all that apply. Same kingdom (animal): +5. Same class (mammal): +2. Related (Human is definitely to human), +2. Same Intelligence: +2.

All of these modifiers add up to 11. 9 is the magic number at which the duration is permanent.


I would do it twice, though. Polymorph into a cloud giant that looks like you, and then a storm giant that looks like you. Now you're a storm giant.

Until the DM throws a book at your head.

[Valtu]

I was unaware you could have spells cast on your during character creation as part of the process that's interesting, wouldn't a Permanency Enlarge Person be weak to dispelling? That seems...kinda flawed, maybe I'm wrong if so my bad.


No, that's a very good point. I hadn't considered that at all. Huge flaw in that logic haha.

This thread has gotten very interesting. I had no idea you could Polymorph Any Object on top of an existing Polymorph spell. Very cool.

[Immabozo]

No, that's a very good point. I hadn't considered that at all. Huge flaw in that logic haha.

This thread has gotten very interesting. I had no idea you could Polymorph Any Object on top of an existing Polymorph spell. Very cool.

But you just spent a few thousand gold to make an opponent waste a turn disepelling it. Shell out the extra gold to have a level 20 wizard cast it and then it will be VERY hard to dispell. Now you spent a few thousand gold to have an advantage in combat and then made a wizard waste an action not dispelling your pre-combat buff.

And if he does, kill him, take his crap and then use it to buy another one.

[Captnq]

Actually, this brings up something I'm trying to figure out...

I want to increase the size of a psicrystal. Up to small or medium, I'm not picky. (they start at diminuative) And/or I want to increase their reach from 0 to at least 5 feet.

Ideas? I'd prefer to avoid spells that disappear in AMFs. So polymorph is out.

[herrhauptmann]

Actually, this brings up something I'm trying to figure out...

I want to increase the size of a psicrystal. Up to small or medium, I'm not picky. (they start at diminuative) And/or I want to increase their reach from 0 to at least 5 feet.

Ideas? I'd prefer to avoid spells that disappear in AMFs. So polymorph is out.

You want to look for a psi build called "The big guy is with me." Or something like that.
I think some versions of the build actually have you using your psicrystal like it's your actual character, while your real character just wisecracks and pretends to be useless. Maybe spending all his actions buffing the crystal.

[Darrin]

You want to look for a psi build called "The big guy is with me." Or something like that.

The Big Guy Is With Me (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1000846) (BGWM) build.

The thread looks a little like a "do it yourself" kinda thing, though. Basically, you wind up with a level 20 psion and a level 35 psicrystal with 5 epic feats.