At-will magic for mundanes

[Mighty_Chicken]

Even in low-magic fantasy, if magic is real and humans can master it, then even people without a supernatural bloodline or study should be able to learn a trick or two.

This is actually part of much of fantasy fiction.

Feats that give X uses of a spell per day are cool and could be even better. I think, however, the taboo regarding mundanes using spells is so strong that when you look at a list of Epic skills, even gods would have a hard time to mimic a 1st level spell with a skill check!

Certainly, I've never seem a parkour jumper become so good in his Jump skill he could levitate. But that's because all persons that ever existed in RL were 6th level or worse. Seriously now, if a dedicated 20th level warrior can slap the face of a demi god, a dedicated Handle Animal specialist should be able to talk to beasts at will at the same level. If 20th level means legend-level warriors, it should also mean legend-level tricksters.

All this request has so far is rant and speculation. So I want to show you a great exemple of a feat tree giving an at-will spell for mundanes. It is a strong tree, but, in my opinion, no overpowerd because it has a special requirement (it's a Regional Feat).

The feat is from the Brazilian setting Tormenta RPG. Link (http://pt-br.tsrd.wikia.com/wiki/Talentos_Complementares#Olhos_Agu.C3.A7ados) to the original feat description (in case you want to Google Translate it)


Keen Eyes

Requirement: native of Collen

Benefit: you receive Low Light Vision. Additionally, you can roll any Spot check twice.

Special: Can only be chosen during character creation.

Special Eyes

Requirement: Keen Eyes, native of Collen

Benefit: Choose Darkvision, detect magic (as the spell) or see invisibility (as the spell). This effect is always active as long as you can see.

Eyes of Fate

Requirement: Special Eyes, native of Collen

Benefit: You can cast divination at will, without material components. However, each time you use it, make a Will check (DC 20). If you fail, you're fatigued. A second fail will make you exhausted and a third one, unconcious.

Special: you can cast divination only once for each specific question

I admit Keen Eyes is relatively strong compared to skill-related 3.5 feats, but in the Tormenta setting all skill-related feats are stronger. (and all feats in general, as a matter of fact)

But let's supose Keen Eyes were more balanced compared to RAW 3.5. For example, +3 in Spot checks, plus Low Light vision (still stronger than Skill Focus, because of the special requirement).

In these conditions, I wouldn't think Special Eyes would be unbalanced at all. Regional and Racial feats are supposed to be a little stronger than the rest because of their unique requirements, and you just spent a feat just to see things better! Not to mention that both feats are less optimal than just casting a spell.

So we have the third feat of the tree, Eyes of Fate, one that allows a third level human commoner - or fighter, or rogue - to cast, arguably at will, a spell that only 7th level clerics can cast. In this case it's OK because it's a harmless divination spell, and PCs are not going to do anything too dangerous with it. But is it fair? I think it is because it is an investment of three feats, to master only one spell.

I think similar stuff - or even cheaper stuff - should be allowed for other utility spells.

In a nutshell - I think magic, including at-will magic and useful magic, should be affordable by mundanes via feats and skill ranks - not class features and prestige classes, I mean something NPC classes could get.

Thoughts? Solutions? Interesting homebrew?

[Slipperychicken]

Instead of a feat tree, just make each power one feat which scales with level.

Also, maybe they could get powers like "strike the earth so hard/skillfully that it makes an AoE" or "your melee attacks can take a penalty and hit people at a range because Ki energy".

They could get a "jump good"/"hulk jump" power which lets them leap arbitrary distances in a single bound, much like early Superman did. This includes leaping several hundred feet in the air to full-attack flying opponents, jumping from building to building, or even from one city to another at the maximum. Of course, this lets them ignore fall damage unless threatened or distracted, in which case they make an easy tumble check. Also it lets their fall damage cap much lower, like 5d6 instead of 20d6.

They could strike with Ki energy as a standard action to tear a hole in reality, and use that for dimension door, teleport, or plane shift at the max level.

Or they could be so good at medicine that they could spam (Ex) Cure spells at people.

[Urpriest]

So we have the third feat of the tree, Eyes of Fate, one that allows a third level human commoner - or fighter, or rogue - to cast, arguably at will, a spell that only 7th level clerics can cast. In this case it's OK because it's a harmless divination spell, and PCs are not going to do anything too dangerous with it. But is it fair? I think it is because it is an investment of three feats, to master only one spell.

If it actually was a harmless spell, sure. But it's one of the most powerful spells of its kind, and the only thing that stops it from solving every problem ever is that it has limits on per-day use. It's completely unrestricted access to information, after all. Divination at-will shouldn't be an ability that anyone should have.

[Maginomicon]

I'd recommend you look at the Sanctified Magic section of the BoED. You could create a feat named "Righteous Calling" that says...

"Prerequisites: Good-aligned, non-cleric. Benefit: Choose an NPC class. Levels in that class gain the spell slot progression of a cleric but your spell list consists only of Sanctified spells. Unlike a normal cleric, you must prepare these spells in advance."

Granted, it's not "at-will", but it's scaling, it's not super-powerful (because of the Sacrifice cost), and since it's only available to NPCs it's not going to impact player balance.

You could come up with something similar for arcane spells.

[Mighty_Chicken]

If it actually was a harmless spell, sure. But it's one of the most powerful spells of its kind, and the only thing that stops it from solving every problem ever is that it has limits on per-day use. It's completely unrestricted access to information, after all. Divination at-will shouldn't be an ability that anyone should have.

Well, the thing with divination spells is that the DM says whatever she feels like saying. This is even in the spell's description (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/divination--3543/):


Similar to augury but more powerful, a divination spell can provide you with a useful piece of advice in reply to a question concerning a specific goal, event, or activity that is to occur within one week. The advice can be as simple as a short phrase, or it might take the form of a cryptic rhyme or omen.

...

The base chance for a correct divination is 70% + 1% per caster level, to a maximum of 90%. The DM adjusts the chance if unusual circumstances require it (if, for example, unusual precautions against divination spells have been taken). If the dice roll fails, you know the spell failed, unless specific magic yielding false information is at work.

As with augury, multiple divinations about the same topic by the same caster use the same dice result as the first divination spell and yield the same answer each time.

Opposed to what you said, it is completely restricted access to information. There's nothing stopping the DM from not giving one useful information the whole campaign, or even the PCs from misinterpreting every omen.

It's a constant pressure on the DM (to come up with inventive stuff, to not give too much information without making the player regret his option), but the abuse potential is zero. Regarding the pressure on the DM, it's not much different from the usual concerning divination spells and prophecies. How manage them? Is future unchangeable? Etc.

Another harmless trait: how many events within a week can a player prevent, anyway - without breaking the spell's restictions? For example, you can't ask both "what perils will we face on our trip to Port City" and "what's the best way to fight them". So unless you DM for a highly creative bunch of people, they won't come up with more than 3-5 useful questions per week. And that's not much above what the cleric could answer. The greatest advantage is the ability to use it without preparation, not the number of uses per day.

So we could talk of problems like, "1st-3rd level parties shouldn't have access to this kind of spell, this is atmosphere-breaking". But the at-will-ity of isn't dangerous.

But what spells do you think that aren't too much or too little harmless and that could be allowed as at-will abilities for mundanes?

Evocations feel a little game breaking, if not overpowered (for example, at will 5d6 fireball), but if you apply a restriction like the feat above, it isn't as scary (how many fireballs may, say, a rogue cast before he's fatigued?). Still, I feel nothing should deal damage above it's own level, but utility above level does not feel as improper IMO.

For example, what would you do to restrict a feat that grants at-will invisibility or fly? Would the risk of fatigue/exhaustion/blackout be enough?

[Mighty_Chicken]

Instead of a feat tree, just make each power one feat which scales with level.

For smaller effects, sure. For example, there are plenty of feats that grant 0-level spells already.

If a feat like this grants more cantrips/orisons as your Spellcraft or Knowledge ranks go up, with ever growing DCs to make the magic work, but limiting it to 0 or 1st level spells...

But a feat must be balanced when compared to other feats, or else there's no reason to not take it. That's why there are feat trees, it's a way to make the better feats more expensive.


Also, maybe they could get powers like "strike the earth so hard/skillfully that it makes an AoE" or "your melee attacks can take a penalty and hit people at a range because Ki energy".

Sure, mundane flavor helps!

But if wizards can learn how to use weapons - fighters just do it better - and the world is full of magic, why not decide that fighter can learn how to use magic, and wizards just do it better?


They could get a "jump good"/"hulk jump" power which lets them leap arbitrary distances in a single bound, much like early Superman did. This includes leaping several hundred feet in the air to full-attack flying opponents, jumping from building to building, or even from one city to another at the maximum. Of course, this lets them ignore fall damage unless threatened or distracted, in which case they make an easy tumble check. Also it lets their fall damage cap much lower, like 5d6 instead of 20d6.

Good ideas. As a D&D designer used to say: 1-5 is gritty fantasy, 6-10 is heroic fantasy, 11-15 is wuxia, 16-20 is super heroism. Imagine if we could represent Golden Age superman probably with nothing more than 20 ranks in Jump and a good Str modifier! Skill ranks between 19 and 23 should allow you to do things we see in super hero comics.

But even a 30 ft high jump would require you to get a 120 in the skill check! Not even a Str 50 (stronger than the Tarrasque) Clark Kent with Epic Skill Focus (Jump) and some magic items could never possibly do it.


Or they could be so good at medicine that they could spam (Ex) Cure spells at people.

This is already possible with epic skills, I just think the DCs are too high.


"Prerequisites: Good-aligned, non-cleric. Benefit: Choose an NPC class. Levels in that class gain the spell slot progression of a cleric but your spell list consists only of Sanctified spells. Unlike a normal cleric, you must prepare these spells in advance."

Maybe it's a nice model - but I'm thinking something PC classes could use. What could make fighters as good with magic as wizards are good with daggers?

[Zweisteine]

But if someone has been training with the blade their entire life (i.e. is a fighter), he hasn't dabbled in magic at all. If he did, it's represented as a feat, or another class.
That is the main point I have: If a fighter wants to learn magic, he takes a level of wizard. That is what multiclassing exists for.

The idea is that to be able to truly cast spells, you either need a natural inclination for it (such as a sorcerer), or extensive training (primary prepared casters). You can't dabble in magic any more than a tiny bit before you're taking a level in a casting class. If a fighter wants magic, he might dabble a little, and take a feat that grants a little magic, but if he wants to cast any more, he has to take a level in wizard (or more likely, duskblade).


There are a few feats out there that grant SLAs, notably, there are a few of them in Complete Arcane (Necropolis Born, Insightful, etc). There are also spelltouched feats, which are somewhat similar. With a little refluffing, the Dragonmarks and their related feats and PrCs can represent the same, but with a more feat-tree-ish scale (especially if using feats from Dragonmarked).

My recommendation would probably be to look at the Dragonmarks, as they are a scaling tree of SLAs. The only downside is that most classes are a bit feat-starved. As a suggestion, open up the Dragonmark Heir PrC to all characters by removing the prerequisite of Favored in House. If you give it a few other modifications, you can make it a bit more like what you seem to be looking for (see the spoiler below).

Remove Favored in House as a prerequisite.
Skills: 4+int or as previous class, whichever is higher.
Class skills: When you enter this class, choose on class you already have levels in. USe the skill list for that class, but add Spellcraft and Concentration to the list.

At each level, you gain an increase in base attack bonus and base save bonuses as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one class before becoming a Dragonmark Heir, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining base attack bonus and base save bonuses. (i.e. You progress BAB and saves as your old class)

Remove House Status as a class feature.

Natural Spellcasting: When you enter this class, choose arcane or divine. Your Dragonmark spell-like abilities draw power from the chosen source, and are treated as spells of that type for determining if they effect targets. Also, if add Knowledge (arcana) or Knowledge (religion) to your skill list, depending on if you chose Arcane or Divine, respectively. (This is not precise enough. I don't know enough about SLAs to list what would change if they became spells. Maybe the second sentence should just say "Treat your Dragonmark SLAs as spells of that type, though you use them with the normal limitations.")

Remove Additional Action Points as a class feature, unless you are using action points in your campaign.

At second level, gain a bonus Dragonmark feat (i.e. feat from the book Dragonmarked), unless you are using Action Points.

Ta-da! Instant homebrew variant class!


Magic isn't as widespread in the default D&D world as you might think. Look in the DMG, at the section on distribution of NPCs of various classes in a given settlement. Primary casters are not all that common.


EDIT 1:

1-5 is gritty fantasy, 6-10 is heroic fantasy, 11-15 is wuxia, 16-20 is super heroism.Wrong. Levels 16-20 is Anime tier. Seriously.

And that brings me to my other idea. While not truly giving the mundane characters magic, this is my policy on high-level characters: higher optimization means stricter rules. If I DM a high-level CoDzilla, he'll be stuck with whatever the rules say. The fighter in his party, however, will be able to manage feats of extraordinary strength, like punching down a wall. It also applies to rollplayers: rollplayers get less freeform power, more RAW power.

[Urpriest]

But what spells do you think that aren't too much or too little harmless and that could be allowed as at-will abilities for mundanes?

Evocations feel a little game breaking, if not overpowered (for example, at will 5d6 fireball), but if you apply a restriction like the feat above, it isn't as scary (how many fireballs may, say, a rogue cast before he's fatigued?). Still, I feel nothing should deal damage above it's own level, but utility above level does not feel as improper IMO.

For example, what would you do to restrict a feat that grants at-will invisibility or fly? Would the risk of fatigue/exhaustion/blackout be enough?

Damage-dealing evocations wouldn't be game-breaking, but they would be kind of pointless. You're not going to learn a spell to burn your foes if you can hit them harder with a sword. (5d6, for example, is an average of 17.5...maybe a lot at first level, but by 5th it's probably not going to be worth it vs. just wading in and cleaving away).

The risk of fatigue just limits number of uses in a way that can be bypassed, rather than a normal uses/day situation that can't be bypassed. I'd only include it for particularly thematically appropriate examples.

In general, I don't think there's a problem with a feat granting at-will invisibility or fly, provided it's at a reasonable level. Monks can get 1/3 rounds invisibility at 2nd level, after all, and at-will flight is available to numerous characters around 6th level or so.

It's at-will abilities that are essentially "this does whatever the DM allows it to do", like Divination, that are a problem. It might not make sense for them to exist at all, even on casters.

[Prime32]

But if someone has been training with the blade their entire life (i.e. is a fighter), he hasn't dabbled in magic at all. If he did, it's represented as a feat, or another class.
That is the main point I have: If a fighter wants to learn magic, he takes a level of wizard. That is what multiclassing exists for.

The idea is that to be able to truly cast spells, you either need a natural inclination for it (such as a sorcerer), or extensive training (primary prepared casters). You can't dabble in magic any more than a tiny bit before you're taking a level in a casting class. If a fighter wants magic, he might dabble a little, and take a feat that grants a little magic, but if he wants to cast any more, he has to take a level in wizard (or more likely, duskblade).There's a difference between using magic and understanding it. A wizard learns enough about the underlying physics of magic that he can develop entirely new spells or modify old ones, but why couldn't someone else just learn "waving my arms like this makes a spell happen"?
Spells like fireball and self-only bull's strength should come easy to a fighter since they're just throwing around raw energy. Teleport would be harder though, and something like planar binding or sepia snake sigil is impossible to pull off if you don't know what you're doing.


EDIT 1:
Wrong. Levels 16-20 is Anime tier. Seriously.Yeah, those girls from K-On are real army-killers. :smallwink:

[Maginomicon]

There's a difference between using magic and understanding it. A wizard learns enough about the underlying physics of magic that he can develop entirely new spells or modify old ones, but why couldn't someone else just learn "waving my arms like this makes a spell happen"?
Because that's exactly what happens with the Factotum class in fluff.

[Blackhawk748]

I agree that Divination spells should be off the table for at wills. However i also agree with the self only bulls strength or something similar. Maybe make a chart of 1st level spells that a character could choose from when they take the feat.