Regarding NPC levels in a high level world

[teslonelf]

I'm running a game based on Pathfinder with my own modifications to fit the world that I'm writing a book about. Because of wars spanning centuries and constant strife, a lot of NPCs will have high levels. While uncommon, there are NPCs who have attained level 60 to fit capabilities and flavor of some of the characters in my book.

For instance, the average town guard will be a level 3 fighter. The guards for royalty, be it elves, humans, dwarves, etc. will be between 17 and 20, with some having multiclass.

For example: human Royal Guards will be
10 Page/Squire/Knight {my own created class}
2 cleric
5-8 paladin {prestige class in my system}

One of my players, who also GMs from time to time, says that NPCs this high of a level is ridiculous and unfair to the players who started at level 1.

Question: Is this unreasonable, and should I try to modify my system so that everything is based on level 20 being the effective "cap" for NPCs?

My worry is that when they attain level 20 themselves they will get bored because there is no more challenge unless they actually take the quest hooks. Also, one of my players has been known to kill the quest giver, take the loot, and then go and do the mission to get the normal loot and experience from that as well.

[Telonius]

Personally, I set NPC levels according to 1) the needs of the plot and 2) the theme of the world. If it's supposed be a grittier world, with the civilized folks just barely scraping by against the oncoming hordes of monsters, I'd probably use a lower guideline than the DMG. If it's a high-magic campaign where the gods meddle in things directly and regularly, level-20 guards for the emperor (who is himself a high-level mage or gish) would be the norm.

If your players have made it to level 20, they're supposed to be legendary. If they have a legendary propensity for killing their employers, the word is going to get around, and no quest-giver is going to contact them without serious protection.

[icefractal]

YMMV, but to my mind - yeah, that's excessively high. 17th-20th level, and they're still just being a guard? That means that either:
A) For a long time - longer than many campaigns even run - the PCs will be nobodies / mooks.
B) Leveling will be sped up. In which case, you've just inflated the numbers to little benefit.

There's also a meta-factor which is that if this is 3.5 D&D, then anything past 15th level gets pretty clunky, and anything over 20th level get really clunky. By inflating the level spread this way, you're moving the game into territory that works less well, system-wise.

Also, I would watch out for making the campaign too much of a railroad. In your book, you can focus on the 60th level NPCs. In the campaign, you should not. The PCs are the protagonists here, and they should not be getting overshadowed by a bunch of ultra-powerful NPCs.

[teslonelf]

The focus isn't on the high level characters yet, and while there are high levels out there, PCs won't be running into them unless they seek them out. The Royal Guards that they ran into are only encountered at the palace, and the issue only came up when one of the guards detected a hidden weapon on one of the PCs.

Basically, the players will be taking care of missions and jobs that the higher level NPCs and more important people are unwilling to take care of because they don't want to take the time to do it.

[Urpriest]

I'm running a game based on Pathfinder with my own modifications to fit the world that I'm writing a book about. Because of wars spanning centuries and constant strife, a lot of NPCs will have high levels. While uncommon, there are NPCs who have attained level 60 to fit capabilities and flavor of some of the characters in my book.

Ok, stop right there.

No, there aren't. A level 60 character is not qualitatively different from a level 40 character. There is no possible sense in which the characters in your book fit level 60 better than they fit a lower (if still Epic) level. The only reason to make a character level 60 is because you like big numbers, and even then a level 40 or 30 (or even 21) character can get those same numbers with some effort. If you don't admit to yourself that the only reason these characters are level 60 is because you want to play level 60 characters, then you won't make any progress with this.

[TuggyNE]

Ok, stop right there.

No, there aren't. A level 60 character is not qualitatively different from a level 40 character. There is no possible sense in which the characters in your book fit level 60 better than they fit a lower (if still Epic) level. The only reason to make a character level 60 is because you like big numbers, and even then a level 40 or 30 (or even 21) character can get those same numbers with some effort. If you don't admit to yourself that the only reason these characters are level 60 is because you want to play level 60 characters, then you won't make any progress with this.

Quoted for truth. d20 is not designed to scale all that far beyond level 20; by level 30 nearly all groups are playing characters far below their potential, and by level 40, level and CR basically don't matter at all. Level 60 is indistinguishable in a practical sense from level 600.

For a sense of scale, all but a few characters from legend and myth can be represented in 15 levels. I'm not sure there are any fictional characters at all that would need to be as much as level 25, discounting those invented in the last three or four decades. So jumping wayyyy past that, orders of magnitude past that, means you will have enormous difficulty simply imagining the scope of what's going on. Dragonball Z characters have nothing on level 60.

[The Insanity]

Ok, stop right there.

No, there aren't. A level 60 character is not qualitatively different from a level 40 character. There is no possible sense in which the characters in your book fit level 60 better than they fit a lower (if still Epic) level. The only reason to make a character level 60 is because you like big numbers, and even then a level 40 or 30 (or even 21) character can get those same numbers with some effort. If you don't admit to yourself that the only reason these characters are level 60 is because you want to play level 60 characters, then you won't make any progress with this.
Or maybe it's because he's not that good at optimizing and just giving the NPC a high level was easier for him? I know I did that a few times myself, although not to stat up a character from a book. I made Iggvilv (sp?) level 60 because my games are higher powered and demon lords are much more powerful than officially, and because she was supposed to be powerful enough to trap Graz'zt I simply bloated her level because I was too lazy to optimize her (and because I'm not good with casters). She never saw play, but I updated her stats just in case if I ever wanted to run the Savage Tides campaign.

[Gavinfoxx]

You need to read this:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8940.0

Basically, it is blatantly obvious that you have no idea what a level means and what power level each level is equivalent to.

Remember, Superman is like level 15. Well most versions of him. A few are like level 21.

[The Insanity]

Was that directed at me?

[Gavinfoxx]

Was that directed at me?

No, at the OP.

[Urpriest]

Or maybe it's because he's not that good at optimizing and just giving the NPC a high level was easier for him? I know I did that a few times myself, although not to stat up a character from a book. I made Iggvilv (sp?) level 60 because my games are higher powered and demon lords are much more powerful than officially, and because she was supposed to be powerful enough to trap Graz'zt I simply bloated her level because I was too lazy to optimize her (and because I'm not good with casters). She never saw play, but I updated her stats just in case if I ever wanted to run the Savage Tides campaign.

"Not good at optimizing" means maybe level 40 or so, level 30 if you're ok with throwing in your setting's equivalent of Chosen of Mystra or the like. There still really isn't room for level 60 NPCs without massive level inflation across the board.


You need to read this:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8940.0

Basically, it is blatantly obvious that you have no idea what a level means and what power level each level is equivalent to.

Remember, Superman is like level 15. Well most versions of him. A few are like level 21.

Eh, actually, I think Superman as often presented in the comics is a good example of a level 100 character. His whole point is that writers exaggerate his capabilities to stupid and unnecessary levels due to a lack of imagination, which is exactly what levels that high are for.

[teslonelf]

Ok, thanks for all the responses guys.

I'm pretty new the GMing scene and as a player, we always seemed to level really fast and so I adjusted my highly qualified NPCs to accommodate this. I'll readjust and see how it works. This group is basically playtesting my system, which is still in Alpha stages.

I'll probably be around often asking for advice/tips/comments on different ideas I have and whether or not they would/should work.

[Thrair]

Yah. It can be difficult to find that balance of NPCs not dying to housecats, but also not making you go "Why did they need the PCs, again?

[The Insanity]

3rd level for an average adult is what I use in my games.

[Gavinfoxx]

This group is basically playtesting my system, which is still in Alpha stages.

It sounds like it is a bunch of houserules for 3.5e? Is that right?

Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? There's lots of options out there

I would consider Pathfinder 3.55, Trailblazer 3.60, True20 3.65, D&D with the Frank & K Tomes 3.65, Fantasycraft 3.70, 'Mutants and Dungeons' (both versions) also 3.70, and Legend 3.75, as far as the 'number of things fixed' goes...

For Example:

Legend:
http://www.ruleofcool.com/
http://www.ruleofcool.com/get-the-game/
https://s3.amazonaws.com/det_1/Legend.pdf <-- this is the actual link to it!
http://www.ruleofcool.com/donation-thresholds/ <-- some bonus content
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47651526/LCGb.html <-- an online character generator, a bit old though, doesn't contain everything or the current version.

Other good things to do is use mutants and masterminds 2e to write up D&D-esque characters, a la:
http://greywulf.net/2011/06/03/mutants-and-dragons-third-edition/

Also, someone is trying to make D&D stuff with mutants and masterminds *3e*:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279503
and
http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=706712#p706712

Fantasycraft is found here:
http://www.crafty-games.com/node/348

Trailblazer is found here:
http://badaxegames.com/

The Frank & K tomes are here:
https://sites.google.com/site/middendorfproject/frankpdf

True20 is here:
http://true20.com/

Again, if free content is important, LOOK UP LEGEND!! It is, as far as I can tell, superior in all ways to Pathfinder.
http://www.ruleofcool.com/

If you want a D20 game that feels like a better, balanced 3.5e?

[Firechanter]

Maybe it will help you if I tell you how I set up the world in my games:

Game starts at level 3-4. Also, most adult NPCs are at least level 3. The majority of the adult population is actually levels 3 to 6, and anything up to 10 is not too rare a sight. The extraordinary section starts at levels 11+.
The ole town guard is no exception -- most of them will be levels 4-6.

This is because I use a guideline for NPC advancement: I sort professions by "tiers", which award weekly XP - the more complex the job, the more XP is gained per week. So something like tree pusher will net only about 1XP per day, while a magician may gain 5 times as much for her research in the ivory tower.

The point is, as long as you just stay in the safety of your home, you gain some weekly XP - and nothing more. Even the most complex jobs will only take you to level 9ish throughout your working life. To get higher than that, you have to go out and do stuff.

In my setting, the major power of the world is a kind of empire ruled by four Tetrarchs. The Tetrarchs themselves are usually powerful spellcasters, level 18-20.
In the military, Sergeants (or Centurions) are typically level 6ish, Captains around 9, and so on up to level 15+ for a General. And they often have levels in Crusader or Warblade.

[Eonir]

I'm running a game based on Pathfinder with my own modifications to fit the world that I'm writing a book about.

I feel obliged to point this out. A LOT of "terrible DM" threads start with this line, please please PLEASE be careful about shoehorning your players around to fit the narrative in your head. It's their story, not yours.

Having said that, good luck!

[Crake]

I feel obliged to point this out. A LOT of "terrible DM" threads start with this line, please please PLEASE be careful about shoehorning your players around to fit the narrative in your head. It's their story, not yours.

Having said that, good luck!

I think it's worth noting that he's basing the campaign in the world in his book. That doesn't mean the campaign's narrative is going to follow that of the book, let alone even be in the same time period. I'm actually doing something similar, running a game in a homebrew world that I'm also writing a book about, but the book is set 400 years before the campaign.