Social skills as a caster?

[G.Cube]

For my next game, I've decided to play a Fiendbinder from ToM. I've been reading through the handbook here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9712) and it suggests investing in Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive to help deal with your demons, but doesn't suggest how to get these as class skills. I haven't yet decided how I wish to enter it, but it seems like at best, most casters only have diplomacy as a class skill.

Any suggestions to gain the social skills as class skills? Any other advice is welcome as well.

[eggynack]

How's about a cleric with the trickery domain for bluff, and either the pact domain (SC, 278) for sense motive, or either the travel domain or the weather domain (ECS, 108) for survival which you can trade for sense motive through skilled city-dweller (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)? Seems feasible.

[G.Cube]

How's about a cleric with the trickery domain for bluff, and either the pact domain (SC, 278) for sense motive, or either the travel domain or the weather domain (ECS, 108) for survival which you can trade for sense motive through skilled city-dweller (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)? Seems feasible.

That works well, thanks!

Out of curiosity, is it possible for an arcane caster to get these as class skills somehow, should I really wish to go that route?

Edit: I suppose I could enter through Bard, would this be that sub-optimal of a decision?

[Kennisiou]

Bard has all of them on their class skill list, iirc. I believe Beguiler does as well.

Edit: As for optimalness... eh... I wouldn't call it suboptimal, personally, but it means you're a different kind of caster as opposed to other entry sources. I don't think either class elevates to T2 or T1 with that PrC, but also don't think cleric or sorc or wizard would drop. Consider maybe going bard > Sublime chord > Fiendbinder so that you progress the SC casting with Fiendbinder levels and wind up with l9 spells.

[eggynack]

I can only get two deep on a wizard right now, by combining changeling wizard substitution levels (RoE, 123) to get bluff, and domain granted power (CC, 53) to get probably sense motive. You can technically get diplomacy through high one warrior-wizard substitution levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), but you need two levels of paladin to take those, and the trades themselves are bad, so that's not really a good way to go.

[Jallorn]

If you're playing a human Wizard, a single level dip into Factotum along with Able Learner is easily worth the slight drop to casting.

[Kennisiou]

Looking at options again, thought I'd make a post.

Bard > Fiendbinder is kinda iffy. Bard > SC > Fiendbinder is better, but you wind up having to be bard 10/Sublime Chord 1/Fiendbinder 9, meaning you only hit SC's first level of being able to cast level 8 spells. If you can find a way to get Summon Monster IV on the bard spell list by level 9, you can go bard 9/Fienbinder 1/SC 1/Fiendbinder 9, letting you get better SC casting progression and the full 10 fiendbinder levels, which is solid but I don't think possible (there might be a dragon magazine, third party, or homebrew way to accomplish this -- if you find or are directed to one check with the DM, or even just see if he'd be willing to waive/reduce the entry requirement for fiendbinder to Summon Monster III since this isn't exactly going to make your build overpowered, just more satisfying).

Beguiler is not an option since they don't have Summon Monster IV and can't get it outside of some sort of fiat (or unless runestaffs count for PRC entry or there's a feat I've overlooked or something? If homebrew is allowed you could actually be a grey elf beguiler x/Gray Elf Paragon 1 (or more for more ecclectic learning) (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Gray_Elf_Paragon_(3.5e_Racial_Paragon_Class))/Fiendbinder 10, which is pretty neat. I'm a big fan of Gray Elf Paragon as a homebrew class, and it's a fine class in spite of its shaky source.

The aforementioned Cleric shenanigans into some early access cleric PRC into fiendbinder is not bad. I feel like you wind up missing out on some stuff in the long run, but it's not bad.

Factotum 1/Wizard X/Fiendbinder 10 means no level 9 spells, so I'd advise against it. It's probably better than Bard/SC/Fiendbinder unless fiated/cheesed to allow early Fiendbinder entry, in which case bard/fiendbinder/SC/fiendbinder is much better.

So yeah, it seems like your best options are the aforementioned cleric, homebrew beguiler/GE Paragon shenanigans, or just hoping for some cool fiat.

[G.Cube]

Bard has all of them on their class skill list, iirc. I believe Beguiler does as well.

Edit: As for optimalness... eh... I wouldn't call it suboptimal, personally, but it means you're a different kind of caster as opposed to other entry sources. I don't think either class elevates to T2 or T1 with that PrC, but also don't think cleric or sorc or wizard would drop. Consider maybe going bard > Sublime chord > Fiendbinder so that you progress the SC casting with Fiendbinder levels and wind up with l9 spells.
I just checked, sadly, beguilar doesn't have Summon Monster on the spell list, but Bard is still possible.


I can only get two deep on a wizard right now, by combining changeling wizard substitution levels (RoE, 123) to get bluff, and domain granted power (CC, 53) to get probably sense motive. You can technically get diplomacy through high one warrior-wizard substitution levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), but you need two levels of paladin to take those, and the trades themselves are bad, so that's not really a good way to go.

What would happen if I just went Wizard and tried to use spells in place of actual skills? Is there Charm Outsider? A way or alternative to gaining Glibness? Other Outsider best enchantment spells?


If you're playing a human Wizard, a single level dip into Factotum along with Able Learner is easily worth the slight drop to casting.

I was thinking about either a Factotum dip, or just going Factotum all the way(not sure if this meets requirements or not yet), but honestly (and I realize I very well might be alone here) I'm pretty tired of just about every build out there dipping Factotum. I understand why it's used, I just don't like seeing it everywhere. It's looking like maybe Bard is the best way into Fiendbinder for me. Does every one think the SC dip is worth delaying entry for a level? I could just reply on regular 6 level bard casting combined with all of the Demon SLAs. (My group is fairly low op anyways.)

Edit: Hey, my first Ninja!

[G.Cube]

What would happen if I just went Wizard and tried to use spells in place of actual skills? Is there Charm Outsider? A way or alternative to gaining Glibness on the wizard spell list? Are there any Outsider social/enchantment spells?


Any thoughts on this?

[Kennisiou]

No way of gaining glibness as a wizard iirc.

Charm monster works on outsiders, although will fail on those with immunity to mind influencing and likely fails against those with high will. If you pick the fiends you bind right then you can probably be safe doing this.

[thethird]

Sha'ir has those skills as class skills, also a binding fluff, is cha based and gets access to divine/arcane spells.

[Urpriest]

Social Proficiency Enchanter (UA IIRC) should work, though it's a bit of an odd specialization for a Fiendbinder.

[G.Cube]

Sha'ir has those skills as class skills, also a binding fluff, is cha based and gets access to divine/arcane spells.

I just looked them up and my mind is a little boggled by the class, could you expand on this a bit please?


Social Proficiency Enchanter (UA IIRC) should work, though it's a bit of an odd specialization for a Fiendbinder.

I just looked this up and it seems almost exactly what I'm looking for crunch wise. Why do think so, do you mean fluff wise?

[Callin]

Most likely not what you wanna hear but its an option. Generic Spellcaster so you can just pick your skills that you want.

Option if allowed at your table.

[Urpriest]

I just looked this up and it seems almost exactly what I'm looking for crunch wise. Why do think so, do you mean fluff wise?

Just that I would expect a Fiendbinder to be a Conjurer, not an Enchanter. But if that's not an issue for you that should work fine.

[TuggyNE]

No way of gaining glibness as a wizard iirc.

Well, not without the usual somewhat cheesy methods of gaining arbitrary spells, like Wyrm Wizard and Extra Spell.

[G.Cube]

Just posting to say thanks to everyone who contributed. As always, the Playground proved a great community, thanks everyone!

[Karnith]

Well, not without the usual somewhat cheesy methods of gaining arbitrary spells, like Wyrm Wizard and Extra Spell.
Arcane Disciple (Commerce) nabs it, also, albeit as a 4th-level spell.