[3.5] Mindlink, Telepathic Bond, and Teleport Through Time

[HaikenEdge]

So, by RAW, would a Mindlink or a Telepathic Bond function following a Teleport Through Time? Both specify to work over any distance, though not across planes...

If does function by RAW, is there any reason (besides the DM throwing books or any other kind of Rule 0) why a character capable of Teleport Through Time couldn't teleport back in time, then cast Telepathic Bond with themselves, make it permanent with Permanency, then bugger off home, thus answering the questions of their past self through an inter-time telepathic bond?

[Zweisteine]

You could not create a telepathic bond to yourself, because

In the case that a traveler meets himself, the two travelers instantly lose control and attack each other with every ability and item at their disposal.
You'd just slaughter yourself, probably.
The other reason it wouldn't work is because you never were giving your past self hints before you time traveled. Therefore, it doesn't work (i.e. time travel is too much of a headache, so future you can't help past you except under very, very, very carefully crafted circumstances).

There are no specific rules I can remember on the interactions between Travel Through Time and other spells, and I'm not going to reread those articles right now, but I'd guess that any other spell would fail to hold across time. Because you aren't in the same time frame after moving through time, you effectively do not exist in the time frame you left. That means your spell wouldn't be able to connect you to it, because it doesn't work.

In any case, trying this would probably result in incurring the wrath of a Quarut (Fiend Folio), an inevitable charged with enforcing the laws of time (and space).

[HaikenEdge]

You could not create a telepathic bond to yourself, because

You'd just slaughter yourself, probably.
The other reason it wouldn't work is because you never were giving your past self hints before you time traveled. Therefore, it doesn't work (i.e. time travel is too much of a headache, so future you can't help past you except under very, very, very carefully crafted circumstances).

There are no specific rules I can remember on the interactions between Travel Through Time and other spells, and I'm not going to reread those articles right now, but I'd guess that any other spell would fail to hold across time. Because you aren't in the same time frame after moving through time, you effectively do not exist in the time frame you left. That means your spell wouldn't be able to connect you to it, because it doesn't work.

In any case, trying this would probably result in incurring the wrath of a Quarut (Fiend Folio), an inevitable charged with enforcing the laws of time (and space).

Not to be pedantic (who am I kidding?), but the phrase "the two travelers" (emphasis mine) implies both have to actually be time travelers; otherwise, there'd only be one time traveler involved, and therefore, by a very strict (literal) interpretation, a time traveler who travels backwards in time and encounters a version of himself who isn't time traveling would not provoke this condition from happening.

[Zweisteine]

Ah, but it specifies "the two travelers," not "the two time travelers." Therefore, if you meet yourself, both copies go berserk.

Of course, seeing your past self might not count as meeting them...

If it was me, I would probably do something like have eye contact or mutual recognition be the trigger for the rage, not "meeting." Of course, a telepathic bond would instantly make both aware of the other, and they'd both go crazy.

[HaikenEdge]

Ah, but it specifies "the two travelers," not "the two time travelers." Therefore, if you meet yourself, both copies go berserk.

The problem with that interpretation, however, is that it comes into problems if one of the two participants isn't traveling anywhere, at which point that character isn't a traveler. ie, the time traveler goes back in time and visits the time traveler as a child, sick in bed. The time traveler is certainly traveling, but the child is sick as a dog, confined to bed rest, and thus cannot travel and is not a traveler.

[Gotterdammerung]

The problem with that interpretation, however, is that it comes into problems if one of the two participants isn't traveling anywhere, at which point that character isn't a traveler. ie, the time traveler goes back in time and visits the time traveler as a child, sick in bed. The time traveler is certainly traveling, but the child is sick as a dog, confined to bed rest, and thus cannot travel and is not a traveler.

We are all "traveling" through time.

[Morcleon]

We are all "traveling" through time.

Depends on your interpretation of time. Perhaps we are sitting stull and time is flowing around us instead.

[CIDE]

Aren't there ways to deliver the bond without directly interacting with yourself...?

[TuggyNE]

Aren't there ways to deliver the bond without directly interacting with yourself...?

Maybe if you introduce a third party who actually casts the bond from a position where they have LoE and LoS to both of you, but where neither of you has LoS to the other.

Might still run into the problem of going nuts as soon as the bond starts, but eh.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, by RAW, would a Mindlink or a Telepathic Bond function following a Teleport Through Time? Both specify to work over any distance, though not across planes...

If does function by RAW, is there any reason (besides the DM throwing books or any other kind of Rule 0) why a character capable of Teleport Through Time couldn't teleport back in time, then cast Telepathic Bond with themselves, make it permanent with Permanency, then bugger off home, thus answering the questions of their past self through an inter-time telepathic bond?

It's an interesting thought experiment.

We're presuming here that time is a 4th spatial dimension and that having traveled through it counts as having traveled a certain distance along that dimension.

There's a notable flaw in this plan and, indeed, with the spell itself. There's no way to travel back to the present. The spell is instantaneous and doesn't have anything in its description for forward travel, save getting yourself killed. The flower is consumed when the spell is cast and where are you going to find another flower that has (past tense) remain undisturbed since some point in the future, to return.

Also, to anyone who may read this, if you pull this in a game, you're a bad person and you should feel bad. Time travel = horrible, bad things for DM brains. DO NOT WANT.

[Maginomicon]

So far as the "traveler encounter psychosis" is concerned, you could easily instead cast the effect on someone which past-you trusts intimately, such as your wife or similar person. Use the telepathic link to have your wife prove to past-you that what she says is true. Future-you would automatically know whether something past-you did impacted your wife in a negative way.

[HaikenEdge]

There's a notable flaw in this plan and, indeed, with the spell itself. There's no way to travel back to the present. The spell is instantaneous and doesn't have anything in its description for forward travel, save getting yourself killed. The flower is consumed when the spell is cast and where are you going to find another flower that has (past tense) remain undisturbed since some point in the future, to return..

From the spell:


It is possible to use this spell to travel forward in time, but only to the point in the caster's life when the caster first went back in time.

Returning to your original time is no problem.

[Psyren]

The spell is set up so that if you ever meet yourself you both go hostile and turn into NPCs until the battle is over.


We are all "traveling" through time.

http://xkcd.com/630/

[HaikenEdge]

The spell is set up so that if you ever meet yourself you both go hostile and turn into NPCs until the battle is over.

That seems to be RAI, not RAW, which wasn't what I asked about. I'm confident on my interpretation of the Teleport Through Time RAW; my question is more in regard to the Mindlink/Telepathic Bond aspect.

[Psyren]

That seems to be RAI, not RAW, which wasn't what I asked about.

No, it is RAW - it's right in the spell text. Declaring it RAI because you want to ignore it is pretty disingenuous.

[HaikenEdge]

No, it is RAW - it's right in the spell text. Declaring it RAI because you want to ignore it is pretty disingenuous.

No, it's not spelled out clearly in the text.


In the case that a traveler meets himself, the two travelers instantly lose control and attack each other with every ability and item at their disposal. However, should a traveler die while traveling in the past, the traveler's body immediately vanishes from the point of time it traveled to and returns to the point where the spell was cast at the time that the spell was cast. In other words, if a traveler perishes in a fire, the instant that the traveler died in that fire is the instant in which the traveler is no longer in that time period, and the body is never found within that location since it returns to the moment of time in which the traveler finished the spell and began time traveling.

The first part of the sentence says that when "a traveler meets himself"; however, the second part of the sentence clearly states the "two travelers" lose control and attack each other. By RAW, both versions who meet must meet the "traveler" text requirement for this to actually trigger, and while the intention might be that meeting oneself in the past will lead to annihilation of one or the other, the text actually only enforces this when two travelers are involved.

Yes, I understand that it is pedantic, but, not being a mindreader, I don't deal in RAI, and RAW clearly states describes both parties as "travelers", meaning, if one of the two isn't a traveler, the clause does not trigger. Saying it does is going with RAI, rather than RAW.

[Psyren]

The first part of the sentence says that when "a traveler meets himself";

Indeed it does. No amount of additional text you post will change that.

[HaikenEdge]

Indeed it does. No amount of additional text you post will change that.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. I believe the sentence only triggers when a character meets another time traveling version of himself; you believe it triggers no matter what version of himself he meets.

[Psyren]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. I believe the sentence only triggers when a character meets another time traveling version of himself; you believe it triggers no matter what version of himself he meets.

Indeed, I believe "himself" means "himself." *shrug*

[HaikenEdge]

Indeed, I believe "himself" means "himself." *shrug*

And I believe "traveler" means "somebody who travels".

[Psyren]

And I believe "traveler" means "somebody who travels".

Unless you spend your days in quintessence, you are in fact a time traveler.

[HaikenEdge]

Unless you spend your days in quintessence, you are in fact a time traveler.

In which case, the argument could be made that, unless you stay perfectly still, you are in fact a traveler through space as well, at which point you're going from pedantry to changing the understood meaning of words and phrases.

[Psyren]

In which case, the argument could be made that, unless you stay perfectly still, you are in fact a traveler through space as well, at which point you're going from pedantry to changing the understood meaning of words and phrases.

Even if you stand perfectly still, the planet you're standing on is indeed moving through space (and you with it), so yes, actually. Though that isn't relevant to this situation.

You are a time traveler; if you meet yourself, things happen. It couldn't be any plainer.

Again, ignoring it simply because you don't want to deal with a very deliberate/intentional limitation placed in the spell is disingenuous.

[HaikenEdge]

Even if you stand perfectly still, the planet you're standing on is indeed moving through space (and you with it), so yes, actually. Though that isn't relevant to this situation.

You are a time traveler; if you meet yourself, things happen. It couldn't be any plainer.

Again, ignoring it simply because you don't want to deal with a very deliberate/intentional limitation placed in the spell is disingenuous.

You are not always a time traveler; a time traveler not only travels through time in a linear fashion, but travels through time as though time was a series of discrete instances as well. Saying everybody is a time traveler because they live in a reality where time exists is changing the meaning of "time travel" just to make it fit with the way you want to interpret the text, when the concept "time travel" has little to do with just living out your life as normal instead of moving from one point in time to another point in time that is not directly connected in a chronological manner.

That is to say, going from this instance to the next does not constitute time travel; time travel involves going from this instance to that instance which is not the next instance of this instance, be that instant a previous instance, or a future instance. Saying going from this instance to the next instance is "time travel" is disingenuous in the same manner of saying taking a step to the left is "travel", unless that step happens to involve a ball, two previous steps without bouncing the ball, and being involved in a game where taking three consecutive steps while in personal possession of the ball without bouncing it is a violation of the rules, in which the violation is called "travel" or "traveling".

[Psyren]

You are not always a time traveler

Sure you are - at every single quantum moment you are at a different "time" than the previous one.

Without an game definition of "time traveler" all this text from you is meaningless, or at the very least is not definitive/authoritative.

As you said we can agree to disagree, but don't pass off your interpretation of RAW as the only valid one and everyone else's as "RAI." Sometimes RAW has to be interpreted, and two people will have different readings of it. There's no sin in that.

[Urpriest]

Regardless, since it doesn't have to be yourself, this is a silly argument to have.

The real problem here is that Teleport Through Time is analogous to Teleport, not to Gate. There is no "wormhole" left behind, and when you go to a different time your Telepathic Bond will relay what you think only to the present target of the spell, i.e. yourself in the present.

[Vaz]

Craft Contingent Mindrape; upon contact with Future and Past self, recognise them as your Descendant/Ancestor as appropriate.

[HaikenEdge]

Craft Contingent Mindrape; upon contact with Future and Past self, recognise them as your Descendant/Ancestor as appropriate.

Why didn't I think of this? And Mindrape is one of my favorite spells.

[Psyren]

Craft Contingent Mindrape; upon contact with Future and Past self, recognise them as your Descendant/Ancestor as appropriate.

Recognition was never the problem - TTT forces you to attack each other regardless.

[Vaz]

Perhaps you couldn't stop it from Initiating the attack, but couldn't you after the triggering of attack from TTT then have Mindrape trigger registering your past/future self as "dead"?

Eh, Time travel makes my head spin.

[Psyren]

By RAW you'd keep going until you ran out of items and abilities.

[Phelix-Mu]

Eh, Time travel makes my head spin.

When I first learned that time travel was an actual thing in the grand expanse of 3.5, something inside of me died. There is no excuse for introducing time travel without an accompanying 200-page book outlining the ramifications of time travel. The whole thing is basically just a grand loophole that any caster can chuck at any bit of solid rules before flipping them the bird.

Not that I don't love time travel. I'm a consummate Whovian, and I've pulled time shenanigans in no less than two of my personal campaigns, and much more extensive stuff in an epic campaign where I was a player. But, except for some closed loop stuff in a cursed forest that was fairly tame, I've regretted all time manipulating stuff that went on, because Time Travel = Headaches.

But, at a theory level, it is quite interesting. I don't think the transfer of information across time is possible, though I'm not sure I can come up with a better RAW justification for this than has already been given.

[Jack_Simth]

Craft Contingent Mindrape; upon contact with Future and Past self, recognise them as your Descendant/Ancestor as appropriate.
Nah. Get a Totally Trusted Ally when setting this up (if the ally is not Totally Trusted, you've got a problem... and if your trust is misplaced, you've got a BIG problem).

Method is as follows:
1) Cast Teleport Through Time, bringing your Totally Trusted Ally with you, back into the distant past.
2) Allow your Totally Trusted Ally to incapacitate you (Sequester (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sequester.htm) is good; you need something that leaves you comatose, and still readily affected by spells).
3) Have your Totally Trusted Ally incapacitate your past self similarly.
4) Have your Totally Trusted Ally cast Telepathic Bond and Permanency on both of you.
5) Have your Totally Trusted Ally move your incapacitated selves well away from each other.
6) Have your Totally Trusted Ally free both of you from your incapacitation (one at a time, and keeping you far away from yourself, obviously).
7) Head back into the future.
8) ?????
9) Profit.

That is, of course, if the Permanent Telepathic Bond trick actually works across time (it probably doesn't).


But, at a theory level, it is quite interesting. I don't think the transfer of information across time is possible, though I'm not sure I can come up with a better RAW justification for this than has already been given.Oh, the Telepathic Bond probably won't work, but the Teleport Through Time (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) spell itself gives you an easy way to pass yourself a set of messages (one set per casting, although the set can be pretty much as big as you want). After all, the range is "Personal and touch" and the target is "The character and touched objects or other touched willing creatures weighing up to 50 lb./level"

So in order to pass a message to your past self... you simply don't go yourself. Make a simulacrum so you have a totally trusted minion (a simulacrum of *what* is largely irrelevant, although it helps if it's immune to intelligence damage, so I'd suggest something like a construct). You hand the Totally Trusted Minion a book, which contains all the information you wish to impart onto your past self (or better: A Thought Bottle in which you've invoked the 'store experiences' clause - or better still: Both). Cast Teleport Through Time on the minion. Minion finds past you, hands over the information.

Edit: Oh, although that does suggest an amusing campaign: 1st level characters are met by something that hands each of the characters a thought bottle, and a note. The note is from themselves, in the distant future, saying that they'll need to use the thought bottle, and figure out how to make the future that's coming not happen. The thought bottle stores experiences, but not specific memories. So the players are all jumped to 20th level - sans equipment - and given a brief, vague description of a massive future threat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

From the spell:



Returning to your original time is no problem.

It's a lovely line, but it doesn't change the fact that the material component for the spell to carry you back into the future -cannot- exist.

Unless you have eschew materials, it's a one-way trip.

Worse, eschew materials' applicability is questionable.

[HaikenEdge]

It's a lovely line, but it doesn't change the fact that the material component for the spell to carry you back into the future -cannot- exist.

Unless you have eschew materials, it's a one-way trip.

Worse, eschew materials' applicability is questionable.

This could be done by a spell-to-power erudite, at which point material components are a non-issue.

[Gotterdammerung]

Basically, Psyren made my argument for me. Thanks Psyren. When you meet yourself, you are both travelers.

But if you really want this crazy combo to work by raw, take heart, because it does work. Not exactly in the way you think but it does work. You are acting under the assumption that "you" from 10 seconds ago is a different creature/target than "you" from the present, or any instance of time for that matter.

IN game terms, "you" are always "you".

Normally when you cast Telepathic bond, multiple "you's" from different time instances don't gain the effect because they are not present in the instance of casting. But if you share an instance in time with another "you", then every time the spell says it affects you, then it also must affect the other "you" because you are you.

So just go back in time and cast telepathic bond and permenancy. Target you and your familiar. Since both of you are you they both will gain the effect.

Of course there are possible unseen ramifications. If future you says "the hallway in the dungeon fills with fire!" then immediately you decide how to avoid the fiery hallway. This means that in the near future you will circumvent the danger. But since the knowledge of the future danger immediately prevented the danger and since the future is now changed, future you now has a completely different future. There is the potential that he screams "THE OTHER CORRIDOR HAS DEATH SNAKES! EVERYONE IS DYING!"

In other words, it is possible, because of the nature of the warning immediately changing the future, for your future self to bombard you with a barrage of consecutive warnings. It might threaten your sanity to hear 10,000 near simultaneous, dramatic cries of warning and impending doom from your future self. And since all of these possible futures are adjudicated by a game moderator, a person you likely pissed off trying to pull of this cheesy combo, I think the worst possible scenario is a very likely scenario.

[Dr. Azkur]

^Kind of like going to the past while carrying your cellphone