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Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-25, 10:55 PM
Hey, I'm looking for advice for a duelist build I'm making. He's level 12; Scout 4/Swashbuckler 3/Duelist 5. I'm planning on getting Spring Attack; what other feats are good choices?

Person_Man
2007-01-26, 12:18 AM
Defensive Throw from Comp. Warrior. If an enemy you apply your Dodge bonus to tries to hit you and misses, you get an AoO.

Also, standard Duelist cheese is to use a Monk with the Carmandine Monk (Champions of Valor) or Kung-Fu Genius feat (Dungeon Compendium) to switch the Wis bonuses to Int.

Then switch over to some combination of Dwarf Paragon (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedParagon.html#dwarf-paragon), Fighter, Ranger, or Hexblade (if you can fit high Cha into your stats).

Combine with two levels of Deepwarden (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4) to switch your Dex bonus to Con, and Insightful Reflexes to switch your Reflex bonus from Dex to Int.

Max out Int, Con, and if you can Str. Dump Dex, Wis, and Cha if you need to.

For example, Cobra Strike Monk (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#monk) 3/Dwarf Paragon 3/Deepwarden 2/Duelist 4. Assume Con 22 and Int 18 at a minimum, and you're looking at +12 to AC before magic. Once you hit Duelist 7, fight defensively every round for another obscene bonus to AC. You should easily hit AC 40 with magic items, have high Saves, Evasion, and tons of hit points.

The down side of any Duelist build is that they don't actually add much to a party. They just don't get hit. Not getting hit is good if you're a tank that's going to stand in the way of enemies, protecting the spellcasters. But Duelist builds are usually centered around mobility. So, think about what you want to bring to the table.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-26, 12:24 AM
I'm actually building him for gladiator-style solo fighting. And he's human (should've put that in the OP, sorry).

Thomas
2007-01-26, 08:32 AM
You want TWF, TWD, Improved TWF, Improved TWD, and Greater TWD (Complete Warrior). Thats +6 AC when fighting defensively, on top of the + (Duelist level, up to Int mod) you get from Duelist, and the +1 you get from having enough ranks in Tumble. You get a defending dagger and always put that +5 to AC.

Then you want Robilar's Gambit (PHB 2), Elusive Target (Complete Warrior), and Combat Reflexes. You can take the -4 to AC and still never get hit if you get enough AC-boosting items (Scout gave you uncanny dodge already) and then make AoOs against them, you get to trip opponents when you intentionally provoke AoOs from them by moving, etc.

Caelestion
2007-01-26, 12:26 PM
Either that or go Tempest (CWar) when you have TWF and ITWF. Those five levels reduce your fighting penalties, give you the effects of TWD/ITWD/GTWD and allow you to apply specific weapon feats to both weapons!

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-26, 10:56 PM
You want TWF, TWD, Improved TWF, Improved TWD, and Greater TWD (Complete Warrior). Thats +6 AC when fighting defensively, on top of the + (Duelist level, up to Int mod) you get from Duelist, and the +1 you get from having enough ranks in Tumble. You get a defending dagger and always put that +5 to AC.

Then you want Robilar's Gambit (PHB 2), Elusive Target (Complete Warrior), and Combat Reflexes. You can take the -4 to AC and still never get hit if you get enough AC-boosting items (Scout gave you uncanny dodge already) and then make AoOs against them, you get to trip opponents when you intentionally provoke AoOs from them by moving, etc.

Um, he's 12th level and doesn't have all the feat slots he'd need for all those. I appreciate the advice, but...

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-26, 11:07 PM
Intelligence is his major stat, dexterity his second major stat, remember this. I love playing with these builds.

Make sure to choose good "battle" feats. Especially tumble. Max tumble, in fact. Graceful Edge with rapier is completely awesome and I can easily reccomend it. Improved Critical and Power Critical can make that rapier then become stupid effective, and absolutely brilliant for you since THF and TWF aren't that great of options for you (strength and dexterity aren't stats you'll be pumping much, and duelist benefits from single-weapon-fighting. Just get an animated shield, it'll do wonders). You can skip power attack, it isn't that worthwhile to you.

EDIT: Sorry, meant rapier, not longsword.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-26, 11:10 PM
Unfortunately, precise strike only works with piercing weapons. Animated shields are cheesy to the point of being anathema to me.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-26, 11:13 PM
Yeah, I noticed I made that mistake right after I posted. Sorry. I fixed it now to say "rapier".

And while animated shields may be cheesy, it's brilliant for you. Your AC when fighting defensively (and god forbid you take combat-expertise to go with it) will suddenly jump to impressively impenetrable.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-26, 11:25 PM
Here's what I've got for feats:

1. TWF
1. Dodge
3. Mobility
4. Combat Expertise
5. Weapon Finesse
6. Spring Attack
9. TWD
12. ITWD

Any suggestions for changes?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-26, 11:29 PM
I'd honestly forgoe the TWF for right now. If you still want it in later levels you can pick it up then, but for right now, it's a feat sink. There's so many feats that can really improve your damage output and defense better then TWF, especially since you don't get that many feats to begin with and you're not really benefitting much from them

Caelestion
2007-01-27, 09:57 AM
Well, for the swashbuckler/duellist theme, it's fairly important if you want the full Renaissance style. Try out the Tempest PrC in CWar - it gives you the effects of TWD along with other stuff.

Thomas
2007-01-27, 10:30 AM
Unfortunately, precise strike only works with piercing weapons. Animated shields are cheesy to the point of being anathema to me.

That's why you use a defending dagger. If you don't use it to attack, you don't lose Precise Strike. It's not a shield or buckler, so it doesn't interfere with the other abilities.

The TWD line of feats just makes it even better. When you're getting 1:4 returns for fighting defensively, you're doing fairly well. Combat Expertise is for ... well, people who want Improved Disarm and Trip.



Here's what I've got for feats:

1. TWF
1. Dodge
3. Mobility
4. Combat Expertise
5. Weapon Finesse
6. Spring Attack
9. TWD
12. ITWD

Any suggestions for changes?

Yeah, like I said. Combat Expertise - why? It sucks - you're pretty much always better off fighting defensively, so long as you have the second weapon in hand for TWD. If you want Improved Disarm and Trip (good feats), it makes sense, but I don't think you should go that way, unless you're going to take some Fighter levels for bonus feats.

Spring Attack isn't all that good, either. Take Elusive Target - it's a much better use of a feat. I assume Weapon Finesse is coming from Swashbuckler here.

Zherog
2007-01-27, 12:11 PM
TWF doesn't really go with a duelist, despite the imagery from books, TV, and movies. If you opt to fight with two weapons, you lose your bonus precise strike damage.


Precise Strike (Ex): At 5th level, a duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll.
When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike. At 10th level, the extra damage on a precise strike increases to +2d6.

So while you could hold a weapon in your other hand and still gain the bonus, you don't need TWF for that.

Raenef
2007-01-27, 12:21 PM
Why not add in Dervish for the dance of death? Dervish can wreck the living daylights out of a lot of melee classes combined with Scout. Think about it,
Dance around your opponent hammering away at his hp taking 5 foot steps adding in your int to damage, your skirmish bonuses, now add a speed wounding weapon and holy christ, i feel so bad for your opponent.
Oh and i forgot, speed increasement, you get spring attack for free, and a lot of extra goodies :D

I would say switch out Combat Expertise for Weapon Focus: Scimitar, get it later you still got 8 levels to go if you really want it that badly.

The beautiful thing is, due to Slashing Blades (CA, Dervish lvl 1) you treat Scimitars as light weapons (It states in the description and i quote:
" Treats the scimitar as a lightweapon (rather than a one-handed weapon) for all PURPOSES including fighting with two weapons)

so you can add your int bonus due to insightful strike(CA ability of Swash 3). And you can use weapon finesse on top of it.

Imp buckler defence wouldn't be bad either :P for later levels if you want to get a nice mithril buckler with a +5 enchant, woot instant +6 ac and no penalty ;x

Thomas
2007-01-27, 12:21 PM
No, but you need TWF for TWD, and Greater TWD is the **** (+6 AC when fighting defensively, which a Duelist should be doing all the time). That's why you use a +5 defending dagger, too - you're not trying to hit anyone with it.

Draz74
2007-01-27, 02:46 PM
Spring Attack isn't normally that good ... but it's pretty good for a one-on-one gladatorial style, especially for a Scout. So I say keep it.

I like the idea of using a Defending dagger as a shield, eventually (you can "wield" it (for TWD) without attacking with it, and keep all your Duelist abilities), but I'm not sure you have enough feats at this level to use two on TWF and TWD. And using it *just* as a shield, without TWD, probably isn't worth the money at this level.

I'd pick your feats like this:
1 Power Attack
1 Dodge
3 Mobility
4
5 Weapon Finesse
6 Spring Attack
9 Improved Critical: Rapier
12

... Those last two feats will depend on what sources you have available. If you are picking feats from Core-only, you probably should go with TWF and TWD. (Especially if you're planning on playing this character into higher levels and you want to have full TWF as an option later on.) Otherwise, look at the most potent feats from other books. Elusive Target is definitely one to consider.

If you do get TWD, then yeah, get a +2 Defending Dagger (or so) and use it just as a shield: +2 AC from TWD while fighting defensively (which is a decent option even though you don't get Elaborate Parry until Level 14, when you will ROCK while fighting defensively), and +2 AC from the defending magic. If your Intelligence and Dexterity are high enough, you can afford to take a -4 to hit from fighting defensively, and still Power Attack for a few points! (Swashbucklers adding Dex and Int to attacks are rediculously accurate.)

As long as you're investing in Spring Attack, do whatever you can to increase your movement speed. Which probably isn't much, since dipping Barbarian would give you XP penalties and magic bonuses wouldn't stack with your Scout speed boosts. (Though I guess you don't even have those yet much at Scout 4, so yeah, buy Boots of Striding and Springing or something.) I suppose if Psionics is allowed, you could spend your two extra feats on Wild Talent and Speed of Thought ...

Draz74
2007-01-27, 02:56 PM
No, but you need TWF for TWD, and Greater TWD is the **** (+6 AC when fighting defensively, which a Duelist should be doing all the time). That's why you use a +5 defending dagger, too - you're not trying to hit anyone with it.

Um, Level 12. A +5 Defending Dagger is almost all of his Wealth by itself. And Greater TWD represents half his feats. +6 AC isn't that good.


Why not add in Dervish for the dance of death? Dervish can wreck the living daylights out of a lot of melee classes combined with Scout. Think about it,
Dance around your opponent hammering away at his hp taking 5 foot steps adding in your int to damage, your skirmish bonuses, now add a speed wounding weapon and holy christ, i feel so bad for your opponent.
Oh and i forgot, speed increasement, you get spring attack for free, and a lot of extra goodies :D

The beautiful thing is, due to Slashing Blades (CA, Dervish lvl 1) you treat Scimitars as light weapons (It states in the description and i quote:
" Treats the scimitar as a lightweapon (rather than a one-handed weapon) for all PURPOSES including fighting with two weapons)

so you can add your int bonus due to insightful strike(CA ability of Swash 3). And you can use weapon finesse on top of it.

Imp buckler defence wouldn't be bad either :P for later levels if you want to get a nice mithril buckler with a +5 enchant, woot instant +6 ac and no penalty ;x

I assume you're intending Dervish instead of Duelist? Because the two really don't mix well. You're telling him to get a buckler, which automatically ruins his best Duelist abilities (regardless of whether it's mithral for no ACP). You're telling him to use a weapon that Precise Strike doesn't work with.

Personally I like his hit-and-run, Spring Attacking, Precise-Strike-plus-Skirmish damage style. (4d6 damage every hit ... not a lot, but in a one-on-one battle where you're also staying away from your opponent, not bad! Add elemental damage to the weapon, or critical hits, for even more d6's.)

Thomas
2007-01-27, 04:04 PM
Um, Level 12. A +5 Defending Dagger is almost all of his Wealth by itself. And Greater TWD represents half his feats. +6 AC isn't that good.

You start with +1 or +2. Duh? +6 AC is 30% less chance of being hit, and therefore 30% less damage from attacks. It's not bad. Combine it all (Duelist level 5, Int mod +5, fighting defensively, Tumble 5+ ranks, GTWD, defending dagger +2), and that's +16 AC already.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-27, 04:25 PM
Hmm. I think I'll ditch Combat Expertise, and take Imp Crit.


Here's what I've got for feats:

1. TWF
1. Dodge
3. TWD
4. Mobility
5. Weapon Finesse
6. Spring Attack
9. ITWD
12. Imp Crit (rapier)

Any suggestions for changes?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-27, 04:34 PM
Woo!

Don't forget power critical later on. Since you're now threatening on a 15, you can really use that +4 to confirming critical hits to making your enemy's life hell.

And Storm of Flying Strikes, though it has a lot of prereqs to it, will make you extremely dangerous if you're still dead-set on TWF. A critical-hitting prone-tossing machine. Tie in Dual Strike with Spring Attack on top of this (we're looking farther down the line, just to give you some ideas for direction) and you could charge a guy, deal him lots of precise damage, knock him prone, then hop back. Enemy spends a round standing up. Lather, rinse, taunt, repeat.

ADDENDUM: Other absolutely hilarious feats you can tie into this for insane winnage includes Leap Attack, Powerful Charge, Greater Powerful Charge, and Shock Trooper. Hell, if you do this, you're going to piss off your DM very quickly with how much pure damage you can cause every round.

FURTHER ADDENDUM: I figured feats out for a level 12 using this cheese. Looks like this-
1. Weapon Focus: Rapier
1. Two-Weapon Fighting
1. Powerful Charge
3. Power Attack
4. Spring Attack
5. Weapon Finesse
6. Leap Attack
9. Storm of Flying Strikes
12. Improved Critical: Rapier

So, at a BAB of 11 and assuming that you've managed at least a +3 on your dexterity by then, you can perform a 12/9 powerful charge leaping spring attack to deal 2[leap attack](1d6+5[Power Attack Rapier]+1d8[Powerful Charge]+1d6[Skirmish]+X[Insightful Strike]+Y[Strength Modifier]), and then the rapier, insightful strike, and strength modifier damage is multiplied by ANOTHER 2 every time you critical, which is better then 1/4 of the time. And if both of your attacks hit, the enemy has a chance to be knocked prone, giving you the best defense of all- that of an enemy that can't retaliate.

Remember that these numbers can increase dramatically if you get a good magic weapon. I did these calculations without one, and you ought to have something reasonable on you at level 12. So, you could very well be death on legs.

Draz74
2007-01-27, 05:34 PM
Power Critical isn't really great. Especially on a build that will generally confirm crits pretty reliably anyway, thanks to Insightful Strike/Weapon Finesse. Likewise, Weapon Focus is suboptimal.

I still recommend throwing in Power Attack. Though I guess getting your Strength all the way up to 13 on this build would be a pain. Other than that, your new Feat selection looks pretty solid.

Thomas
2007-01-28, 08:00 AM
Hmm. I think I'll ditch Combat Expertise, and take Imp Crit.

Never take Improved Critical, unless it is to get a good feat. You can just buy a keen weapon.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-28, 08:22 AM
Call me stupid, but where is Storm of Flying Strikes from?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-28, 09:28 AM
It was in Dragon Magazine. But you can find everything you need to know about it here- http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf

I also forgot that it requires Improved Bull Rush. I guess put that where I had Powerful Charge, then take up Powerful Charge in place of Improved Critical.

The reason for taking Improved Critical was so he could put more and better enchantments on his weapons, actually. It's his choice, but that extra +1 enchantment can go towards a lot of useful things.

Also, unless it's a stylistic thing, might I suggest wielding twin shortswords instead of a rapier and dagger? Mostly just because things like Weapon Focus would then affect both of your weapons at once. The damage output's slightly better, too.

Thomas
2007-01-28, 09:34 AM
Weapon Focus sucks for a feat. Rapier & shortsword is better than rapier & dagger, though. I just go for the dagger because you're mostly not going to attack with the secondary weapon anyway.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-28, 09:37 AM
I agree, Weapon Focus does suck. But it's needed for Storm of Flying Strikes, which certainly is worth one extra crap feat to use.

EDIT: And then I go back to read it, and realize that what I was looking for with that was Power Critical. Heck, I messed up a few feat placements, so here's a new version that's sound-

1. Two-Weapon Fighting
1. Dodge
1. Power Attack
3. Mobility
4. Leap Attack
5. Weapon Finesse
6. Spring Attack
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12. Dual Strike

Storm of Flying Strikes isn't on here because you don't have enough feats to use it right yet. But you can pick it up at 15.

Raenef
2007-01-28, 10:31 AM
Yes that is exactly right, forgot to mention to switch from duelist to dervish XD whoopsie ;P

I do like Viscount's Opinion about using short swords, i think that would be a neat sight to witness. Also for having a bit of fun and flair, take a few cross-skills in perform: Weapon drill from Complete Warrior. (Pg.122) Impress the crowd and show off to your opponent at the same time.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-28, 11:21 AM
I decided I loved the setup so much that I'm using it for an NPC ally later today in my gestalt game. Crusader//Chaos Monk at level 13 that charges at you, jumps in the air, slices you with a shortsword, then kicks you in the head, knocking you flat. Not to mention the stances and maneuvers she can go into :D

God, this is the best use of monk ever.

Zherog
2007-01-28, 11:31 AM
So... you're going duelist, you don't have Two-Weapon Defense (which I don't think is worth the cost, but others do), and you still have Two-Weapon Fighting? Why? You can't fight with two weapons and gain the benefits of your class (despite the archetype using two weapons).

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-28, 11:53 AM
Don't confuse me and the Viscount, here. I do have the TWD feats.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-28, 12:18 PM
Yes, and mine is building up to use Storm of Flying Strikes. It makes it so every time you strike twice in a round when TWF (even if both are with the same weapon!) the enemy has to make an immediate save to not fall prone. I'm sure you can understand why I consider knocking an enemy prone several times more useful then 1-3 AC.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-28, 02:17 PM
Indeed I can, but my build can't get there from here.

Anyway, can someone tell me where this Int to hit is coming from? All I can find is Int to damage (swashbuckler's Insightful Strike).

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-28, 02:23 PM
It's possible. Just not with levels in scout, sadly. It throws off the BAB just enough to make it not work. But I can perfectly understand preffering the scout, and I didn't want to mess up that tennant of your work.

If you weren't using scout, I'd suggest either ranger for a little free two-weapon fighting or fighter for three shiny new feats. Fighter obviously has the better feat toys, but ranger has the better skills (by a lot). Plus a doggie.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-28, 02:29 PM
It's possible. Just not with levels in scout, sadly. It throws off the BAB just enough to make it not work. But I can perfectly understand preffering the scout, and I didn't want to mess up that tennant of your work.

If you weren't using scout, I'd suggest either ranger for a little free two-weapon fighting or fighter for three shiny new feats. Fighter obviously has the better feat toys, but ranger has the better skills (by a lot). Plus a doggie.

I'm not saying it can't be done period, I said it couldn't be done with my build.

Draz74
2007-01-28, 05:22 PM
Indeed I can, but my build can't get there from here.

Anyway, can someone tell me where this Int to hit is coming from? All I can find is Int to damage (swashbuckler's Insightful Strike).

Whoops, I was going off of this:


The insightful strike class feature that the swashbuckler gains at 3rd level lets her add her Intelligence bonus (if any) to attack rolls made using her Weapon Finesse feat.

... from the "Swashbucklers with Class" article on the Wizards web page. Which was written by Skip Williams. Who is ... not always reliable.

I gotta learn to take articles from the Wizards web page with a grain of salt ... :smallconfused:

Thomas
2007-01-28, 05:30 PM
This is why Skip shouldn't be answering rules questions - he apparently doesn't know the rules, and doesn't bother to read up on them. Swashbucklers get Int bonus to damage, not to hit.

Zherog
2007-01-28, 06:05 PM
Skip doesn't answer rules questions; Andy Collins is the sage. Skip does write articles for the site, though.