Rules Question: Damage reduction + half damage effects

[Yogibear41]

If a creature has damage reduction but also has the half damage from slashing and piercing weapons, which can be granted from the swarm type or other things, which do you apply first? For example is an attack from a sword would do 10 points of damage vs half from slashing and dr 5, would you half the damage to 5 first then subtract the DR resulting in 0 damage, or would you subtract the 5 then half the damage resulting in 2.5 damage?

[Gotterdammerung]

Half Damage reduces the effectiveness of a dmg source by half.

DR reduces damage taken.

Therefore DR comes last.

SO in your scenario you would take 0 dmg.

Even if the wording didn't give a clear order of application, DR would still apply last, because a creature can choose what order to apply their capabilities.

[Yogibear41]

A similar question would be if something had a resistance to something it also has a weakness to, the abyssal drake from draconomicon comes to mind, it can choose to apply the resistance to cold before taking extra damage from its weakness to cold potentially negating the damage all together.

[Gotterdammerung]

A similar question would be if something had a resistance to something it also has a weakness to, the abyssal drake from draconomicon comes to mind, it can choose to apply the resistance to cold before taking extra damage from its weakness to cold potentially negating the damage all together.

Yes the Resistance would apply first. Again you can call to the order provided by the language or to the choice of order for justification.

ER prevents damage before it reaches your HP pool. Vulnerability causes the damage you take from a certain source to increase in potency.
The vulnerability can't apply until after the ER has offered its protection.

[Crake]

Even if the wording didn't give a clear order of application, DR would still apply last, because a creature can choose what order to apply their capabilities.

Can you cite that?

My groups have always run with BIMDAS when applying things. So multipliers first, then subtractors. So in the swarm case, it would be 10/2-5, which becomes 0. But in the Weakness/Resistance case, it would be 10x1.5-5, which would result in 10 damage, not (10-5)x1.5 for 7.5 damage.

[peacenlove]

Whenever an order for applying effects is not specified, the attacker chooses the order in which they apply.
The FAQ has an example with an assassin's death attack with a poisoned weapon which damages constitution. The assassin chooses to apply the poison first in order to maximize his chances for a death attack although the order is not specific.

[Crake]

Whenever an order for applying effects is not specified, the attacker chooses the order in which they apply.
The FAQ has an example with an assassin's death attack with a poisoned weapon which damages constitution. The assassin chooses to apply the poison first in order to maximize his chances for a death attack although the order is not specific.

That actually lends credibility to the "user determines order" rule, since those two things were abilities the attacker had, wheras vulnerabilities and resistances are abilities the defender has.

Edit: I'd still like a citation though if possible

[Gotterdammerung]

That actually lends credibility to the "user determines order" rule, since those two things were abilities the attacker had, wheras vulnerabilities and resistances are abilities the defender has.

Edit: I'd still like a citation though if possible

It is user determines order, and its been so long I am not sure exactly where it is. But check FAQ's and the rules compendium. It is probably somewhere in the rules compendium.

But either way, in both scenarios presented, there is a clear order given by the language.

ER prevents dmg from reaching you. Vulnerability increase the damage that does reach you.

A shield that stops 30 points of fire from reaching your skin doesnt suddenly become weaker just because you burn easier. The fire has to reach you first before its amplified. So any effect that shields you from the fire would apply before your weakness.


Similar with the DR and halfed damage. DR prevents you from taking X amount of dmg. Half damage resistances make a weapon half as effective. You have to figure out what damage the weapon REALLY does before the damage can be reduced. For instance, if I hit a monster with DR 10/- and I roll 60 points of dmg on the dice, the damage of my weapon is 60. After that has been established, the monster applies his DR and REDUCES the 60 to 50. I did 60 points of dmg. The monster reduced the damage with his damage reducer called damage reduction which caused a reduction in the dmg.

Now if the monster also took half dmg from a weapon of my type, things change. My weapon is now inefficient. I rolled 60 on the dice but the final result of effective dmg is 30 dmg. I did not do 60 dmg. I did 30 dmg. Therefore his DR can not apply to 60 dmg. 60 dmg is what I would of done to a normal target. I did 30 dmg which is then reduced by the monsters damage reducer to 20 dmg.