What LA would you say Magic Immunity is worth?

[Zaydos]

Simple Not so simple question, what LA would you say is the minimum for a race with magic immunity (i.e. SR = infinite).

Let's say, for the sake of argument, it got +2 Con and -2 Cha, and Magic Immunity as a medium creature and nothing else.

How much would it increase if they could lower their magic immunity (and note which action you'd let them)?

Does it lower if they can't learn to cast spells, use invocations, or use psionic powers (assuming they can still bind vestiges, shape soulmelds, and initiate maneuvers)?

I've got a potential idea seed on this line, but the biggest thing will be figuring out what is the minimum LA and how I can make them playable despite it.

[XionUnborn01]

That's tricky because at some tables where casters avoid pretty much all SR spells, it becomes a question of enemies faced I think. While some lower-op tables might regularly have only one or two sr:no spells.

I'm not nearly good enough figuring out LA to even try a guess, but I wanted to just lay that out there.

[WhiteLycan]

Ballpark number, LA +6. I'd try to reverse engineer it from an iron golem.

[TuggyNE]

Simple Not so simple question, what LA would you say is the minimum for a race with magic immunity (i.e. SR = infinite).

Let's say, for the sake of argument, it got +2 Con and -2 Cha, and Magic Immunity as a medium creature and nothing else.

So, Dwarf minus all features + the King of immunities. Hmm. Given how few spells bypass this, it's probably around +4 to +6. Hard to really nail it down, I think.


How much would it increase if they could lower their magic immunity (and note which action you'd let them)?

This is technically the default for SR and immunities, thanks to an ill-considered Core rule.

If it was a swift action, probably another +1 or +2.


Does it lower if they can't learn to cast spells, use invocations, or use psionic powers (assuming they can still bind vestiges, shape soulmelds, and initiate maneuvers)?

Yes, but the more you impose hard limits on what a race can and cannot do, the closer it comes to unplayability.

[Zaydos]

Looking at Savage Species Iron Golem doesn't have a listed ECL/LA, but Awakened Stone Golem does; +6 LA total, +18 natural armor (+3 LA), Construct type (+1 LA; for some reason this is less than for Undead), +18 Str, -2 Dex, and 1 Cha (+1 or more LA), as well as DR (+1 or +2), Reach (+1), at-will quickened slow (+1). Of course there's the standard high HD reduces LA somewhat, assuming a rate of 1 per 4 or 5 HD, it would put magic immunity at +1.

I don't exactly want to use the direct Savage Species numbers because it's notoriously bad at assigning good LA, although looking around it I found Spell Resistance is +1 regardless of amount and all Magic Immunity is is infinite Spell Resistance so by the guidelines it would be +1. I don't exactly think it's only a +1 LA ability.

Edit: And ninja post, but yes there's a reason I didn't look at golem LAs although I should have more thoroughly (although looking across the lot it would seem to be +0 to 1 - adjustment for HD on Flesh Golem, and that the difference between 9 and 11 HD does not result in additional LA lowering as Clay golems gain an at-will sla [+1 LA] and immunity to two weapon types [classifying them for non enhancement DR's +1 higher LA]). As people are ball-parking this at +4 to +6 it would seem that SS is not being helpful. Also Incarnate Construct and it's -2 LA is apparently not applied as Awakened and Incarnated golems have the same LA.

[Just to Browse]

I would say there's no good way to balance this, just like there isn't any good way to balance the feature "+infinity to attack rolls". Magic Immunity is great for monsters because it's easy to remember (for the DM) and it encourages new tactics, but I think blanket immunity abilities like these just make the game break down.

[Mith]

What if you made it immune to Divine magic as well? That way, there is no Healing to go with it?

[Zaydos]

I would say there's no good way to balance this, just like there isn't any good way to balance the feature "+infinity to attack rolls". Magic Immunity is great for monsters because it's easy to remember (for the DM) and it encourages new tactics, but I think blanket immunity abilities like these just make the game break down.

That was my first reaction too, but it ought to be possible, especially since PCs rely on magic typically more than monsters do. Plus there's already rules for playing awakened golems which do have this ability (they're saddled with a combination of high hit dice with the worst chassis and the badly designed LAs given by Savage Species but they exist), and it is possible to get spell resistance that works 80+% of the time against monsters of your level.


What if you made it immune to Divine magic as well? That way, there is no Healing to go with it?

Spell resistance applies to divine magic as readily as arcane, it's no buff spells, no healing. If it can't be lowered it's actually a rather double edged sword because most enemies don't use magic, but it means you can't be plane shifted, can't be healed, can't be turned invisible, etc. Now since your SR doesn't apply to your own spells it's significantly better for a caster as they can still self-buff, while not having to fear offensive magical effects directed at them.

[Network]

I'd say around LA +5 for magic immunity, assuming it isn't accompanied by any other significant racial trait (I'm counting weakness to specific spells and healing from damage as racial traits that may increase the LA). I'd reduce it if you cannot lower it (though I'm not sure which amount of reduction is appropriate), and maybe increase it to LA +6 if you can filter out which spells work and which don't without taking action.

[Vaynor]

Savage Species is 3.0 and not really useful for anything but getting estimates. I think you're going to have trouble balancing a magic-immune race with such little benefits. It's more suited, in general, to a higher powered creature that also has magic immunity. The main issue is that magic immunity is powerful, but just magic immunity with a high LA simply isn't worth it. I think you'd be better off trying to work with a more limited magic immunity (based on HD or simply a hard limit), give it some weaknesses (like golems do), or simply adding more to the race to make it more balanced. Without other racials, you're looking at something that's either too powerful or too weak for its LA.

[Zaydos]

Savage Species is 3.0 and not really useful for anything but getting estimates. I think you're going to have trouble balancing a magic-immune race with such little benefits. It's more suited, in general, to a higher powered creature that also has magic immunity. The main issue is that magic immunity is powerful, but just magic immunity with a high LA simply isn't worth it. I think you'd be better off trying to work with a more limited magic immunity (based on HD or simply a hard limit), give it some weaknesses (like golems do), or simply adding more to the race to make it more balanced. Without other racials, you're looking at something that's either too powerful or too weak for its LA.

Now that I definitely agree with. In a lot of ways I probably would have done better to ask what the minimum starting ECL for a creature with the ability is.

[Saidoro]

+0 for the basic version, you're easily losing as much to buffs and friendly spells as you gain by being immune to the dangerous ones. +3 or 4 for the lowerable version, provided it uses some relatively large action(full-round, probably) and turns off active spells when you activate your immunity.

[3WhiteFox3]

I'm going to disagree with the idea that Magic Immunity is worth a high LA.

LA sucks, it's a terrible system that asks you to trade off class levels for abilities. When it's your class levels that should be giving you abilities in the first place.

Let's look at some of the consequences of Magic Immunity.

Mundanes/Partial Casters: No 'SR: Yes' buffs (unless you are able to spend your standard actions to lower your Magic Immunity and no resurrections. You can't even poach off of the party wizard for spells. Meaning to even contribute you are probably completely reliant on magic items, which you can't even craft yourself. Congratulations, you've lost several class levels (which may or may not have sucked anyway, so there's that) for an ability that hoses you almost as much as your enemies.

Full Casters: Same as above, except you can still contribute and that the level's that you've lost are never worth it. But those 5-6 levels that you just lost, those are your highest level spells. And all for a crappy defense that isn't that hard to actually bypass. Sure, you have another layer of defenses, but you've lost so many caster levels to make that pointless. The worst part? Getting Magic Immunity is possible with the right methods. (Sure, those methods are cheesy and aren't going to be allowed in most low-op games. The point is, if a caster really wanted to, he could get this without losing anything.)

So for ECL 20 fighters and monks? Sure Magic Immunity might actually be worth those lost caster levels, except you can still be affected by some of the nastier spells. But that's mainly because ECL 20 tier 5 characters suck.

I wouldn't put the LA at any more than +3 for a version that can be lowered. +0 if you can't lower the immunity. No buffs is absolutely killer for any class.

[SowZ]

+0 for the basic version, you're easily losing as much to buffs and friendly spells as you gain by being immune to the dangerous ones. +3 or 4 for the lowerable version, provided it uses some relatively large action(full-round, probably) and turns off active spells when you activate your immunity.

Except you can still target yourself with spells

[Just to Browse]

You can also totally use magic items that grant static benefits, and lots of CharOp builds assume this. You might have to pay for robot wings or dip for a soulmeld, but you can get flight. You might need to shell out lots of gold, but you can get death immunity.

But what magic immunity grants is the ability to flat-out ignore any enemies that use magic unless they're BFC mages or polymorphers. Get a mini-teleport on this guy and now he just sits on mages and tears their face off. In order to have legitimate counters, the ECL needs to be something high such that the counterplay exists. So the LA absolutely has to be something like LA +6, because that way people can counter you with black tentacles and polymorph. But LA +6 means that you get 10HP at first level and the fighter can kill you with a standard action, so you're now the worst kind of class cannon.

Minimum ECL is a better way to do it. For that, I would say a minimum of 7. This would go well on an anti-mage assassin, and I would seriously recommend giving it a duration in rounds.

[TuggyNE]

But what magic immunity grants is the ability to flat-out ignore any enemies that use magic unless they're BFC mages or polymorphers. Get a mini-teleport on this guy and now he just sits on mages and tears their face off. In order to have legitimate counters, the ECL needs to be something high such that the counterplay exists. So the LA absolutely has to be something like LA +6, because that way people can counter you with black tentacles and polymorph. But LA +6 means that you get 10HP at first level and the fighter can kill you with a standard action, so you're now the worst kind of class cannon.

Alternatively, slap terrible RHD on instead of (some of the) LA. (Humanoid RHD are pretty much devoid of anything interesting, but do at least keep you alive.)

[Zaydos]

So looks like I'm looking at aiming for a minimum ECL in 6-8 range. Alright. Well time to put my brewing hat on.

Note to self: Get brewing hat.

Edit: aka I haven't forgotten this thread, thanks for all your responses, now I just have to figure out how to make the creature I envisioned.

[Realms of Chaos]

It's a bit late but there's one possibility no one has suggested. Why not use RHD instead of an LA? It allows this guy to still have the HP, BAB, and saves of an approximately normal character while still having them trade in class features for a racial feature.

[TuggyNE]

It's a bit late but there's one possibility no one has suggested. Why not use RHD instead of an LA?

What am I, chopped liver? :smalltongue:

[Seerow]

I agree. I'd go with something like 4-5 humanoid hit dice and call it a day. It's enough to screw with just about anyone playing a class with actual class features, and anyone playing a class that doesn't mind losing 4-5 levels worth of class features could probably use the buff.

[Realms of Chaos]

What am I, chopped liver? :smalltongue:

Oh, wow, don't know how that happened. :smallredface:

On the bright side, I'm pretty sure that this makes you an actual ninja. Not only did you say something before I did but it remained completely out of my radar. :smalleek:

[TuggyNE]

I'd go with at least 5, maybe 6 or even 7 RHD, I think. +4 LA is about the minimum ECL this should be operating at, despite being overly fragile and thus imbalanced, so starting at the same point or bumping it up is probably necessary.


Oh, wow, don't know how that happened. :smallredface:

On the bright side, I'm pretty sure that this makes you an actual ninja. Not only did you say something before I did but it remained completely out of my radar. :smalleek:

Yeah I have mad skillz yo. *makes slashing motions with hands*

[Just to Browse]

I agree. I'd go with something like 4-5 humanoid hit dice and call it a day. It's enough to screw with just about anyone playing a class with actual class features, and anyone playing a class that doesn't mind losing 4-5 levels worth of class features could probably use the buff.

I think that would be OK in the same way that LA+3 would be OK. It's functional, but since Zaydos is writing the creature and has the chance to make it not crappy, he should make it not crappy. 7 RHD with decent attacks, non-magic defenses, utility, and flavor is way better than 5 vanilla RHD.