Battle Dancer + Dragon Devotee, optimization and funsies?

[Prometheian]

I'm a fairly new player and I'm going to be joining a group with a bunch of other fairly new/new players, as well as a fairly new DM.

I've done a ton of searching and really enjoyed the idea of playing a Battle Dancer, however I really want to pick up some dragon-like features on my character. The Dragon Disciple, among others, requires either a lawful alignment or too much int for the character I'm building. This left me to decide on the Dragon Devotee as my prestige class. At fifth level DD I get the abilities of "dragonic creature template" however peeking around I can't seem to find a direct reference to flight. One of my big desires with this character is to have it eventually gain wings.

Is it possible? Forgive me if I've overlooked something obvious, still fairly new to all this. Additionally if you have some cool or fun suggestions for what I'm building I'd more then appreciate it.

[Kazyan]

For flight, there are a few basic races that can eventually unlock it. You can use the Raptoran, from Races of the Wild, or you can apply the Dragonborn of Bahamut template to a base race and select the Wings aspect.

[Kaje]

Don't bother with dragon-y classes. Aside from Dragonfire Adept, which won't go very well with a melee build, they're mostly pretty terrible. Spend 100 gp to become a Dragonborn from Races of the Dragon instead.

[Twilightwyrm]

The Draconic Template grants the dragonblood subtype, among other things, to a character that gains it. This gives access, assuming your character can overlook the random "1st level" requirement, to the Dragon Winds and Improved Dragon Wings feat. It will hurt because, as a Battle Dancer you are already going to be a bit strapped on feats, but it can be done.

@Kaje: While from a strictly theoretical standpoint this might be considered good advice (the guy is a Battle Dancer, and Dragonborn gives a penalty to Dex, kind of an important stat), try to remember that the OP is asking for suggestions for a character that is actually meant to be played. It is perfectly reasonable that, among other things, a player might not want to sign on as a good-leaning servant of Bahamut, devoted to opposing Tiamat, stopping the schemes of evil dragons whereever they might be, and becoming almost an automatic target for servants of Tiamat/evil dragons in general/generally evil creatures. Not every martial character that wants a draconic aspect, quite reasonably, wants to take on all of this baggage for their character.

[Kaje]

Mere flavor-text. All Dragonborn actually requires is non-evil.

[Kazyan]

Recommending Dragonborn because of its fluff, and then dismissing its fluff, strikes me as odd.

[Kaje]

Yeah, D&D's a weird game.

Whatever, I love the look and feel of Dragonborn but I've just never seen a need to require them to be shining paragons of virtue who oppose Tiamat with every thought, word, and deed.

[Vertharrad]

I'm a fairly new player and I'm going to be joining a group with a bunch of other fairly new/new players, as well as a fairly new DM.

I've done a ton of searching and really enjoyed the idea of playing a Battle Dancer, however I really want to pick up some dragon-like features on my character. The Dragon Disciple, among others, requires either a lawful alignment or too much int for the character I'm building. This left me to decide on the Dragon Devotee as my prestige class. At fifth level DD I get the abilities of "dragonic creature template" however peeking around I can't seem to find a direct reference to flight. One of my big desires with this character is to have it eventually gain wings.

Is it possible? Forgive me if I've overlooked something obvious, still fairly new to all this. Additionally if you have some cool or fun suggestions for what I'm building I'd more then appreciate it.

1) What in the world gave you this idea? There is no mention of needing to be lawful to enter Dragon Disciple. EVER!
2) Read the template there is no mention of flight...you get no wings; you want wings get the feat, another template, or go DrDis like you were thinking. I'm sure the others have already brought up other ways to get wings.

[Red Fel]

If you decide not to go with Dragonborn - which is, frankly, a great template, since it's +0 LA for your choice of scaling wings, breath weapon, or vision, at the cost of some fluff - you could always go with a Dragonwrought Kobold.

Hear me out. I know that the DWK is often seen as some of the stinkiest cheese there is, but in this case, you aren't using it for its Dragon Archetypes, or for aging it up to Venerable, or any of that. You're using it for two primary reasons.

1. Kobolds are Small, and receive penalties to Str and Con, but a size bonus to AC, attack and Hide, and a Dex bonus. Further, according to this web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), they can have Slight Build, which allows you to treat them as a size smaller when it would be beneficial.

2. Dragonwrought gives your Kobold the Dragon type. Not Dragonblood, Dragon. (Not that it makes a difference.) This qualifies you for any Dragon feats, such as Dragon Wings. It also removes the Humanoid type, completely replacing it with Dragon. This has the added bonus (or penalty, depending) of making you immune to any spells that only affect Humanoids, such as Hold Person or Charm Person. (It also makes you immune to beneficial spells like Enlarge Person, but if you make your career out of being an itty-bitty-murder-committee, you don't need to bulk up.)

This should give you plenty of dragon-flavor, and while leaving you physically frail, the race choice is decent for a Dex-based class like Battle Dancer. Note, however, that at level 17, assuming you have 20 ranks in Tumble (which, as a Battle Dancer, you should), you get (Su) flight for free. (Ex) flight from actual wings is generally better, and comes online sooner, but it's something to keep in mind.

[Chronos]

(It also makes you immune to beneficial spells like Enlarge Person, but if you make your career out of being an itty-bitty-murder-committee, you don't need to bulk up.)
More to the point, it also makes you immune to Reduce Person, which a kobold could get significant use out of.

[Red Fel]

More to the point, it also makes you immune to Reduce Person, which a kobold could get significant use out of.

Except that, with Slight Build, you don't really need it; you're already Small, and can count as Tiny in a pinch.

But, yes, I suppose if you wanted to be Diminuitive, it would be a setback.

[Vanitas]

Battle Dancer 5/Dragon Devotee 5/Dragon Disciple 10 is a feasible, if not particularly powerful, build. I'm sure we could make it work, tho. Getting Wings of Cover from Dragon Devotee and having lots of 2nd level slots from Dragon Disciple helps survivability, you will have good senses and you will provide some debuffs. There are plenty of dragon related item (such as Dragon Spirit Cinture) that might help as well.

[Twilightwyrm]

Mere flavor-text. All Dragonborn actually requires is non-evil.
Again, from a theoretical perspective, this fluff may or may not matter. For a character that is actually going to be played, it matters quite a bit.

[Prometheian]

It seems like I'm in a bit over my head here. Would any of you be willing to sit down w/ me on Skype and talk me through this?

[Vertharrad]

Yeah, D&D's a weird game.

Whatever, I love the look and feel of Dragonborn but I've just never seen a need to require them to be shining paragons of virtue who oppose Tiamat with every thought, word, and deed.

Except it's Bahamut that bestows this boon on your character and I don't see him doing it to a evil Tiamat supporting character...

[Red Fel]

Except it's Bahamut that bestows this boon on your character and I don't see him doing it to a evil Tiamat supporting character...

I think Kaje's point wasn't that a Dragonborn shouldn't be allowed to be evil or support Tiamat; I think the point is that the fluff of Dragonborn suggests basically giving oneself over completely to Bahamut. I like playing a Good character from time to time, if only to study how the other half lives, but I'm not sure I'm 100% comfortable with living that particular brand of Goodness, 24/7.

[Kaje]

Except it's Bahamut that bestows this boon on your character and I don't see him doing it to a evil Tiamat supporting character...

Of course not. I already acknowledged upthread that the templateish requires non-evil. That's a mechanical thing that could be houseruled away, but is not mutable like fluff.

[Xintas]

I'm hearing a lot of "I don't want to suck but I want to be dragon-y" and no one suggested Dragon Shaman?


Breath weapon? Check
Dragon Wings? Check
Decent class with useful abilities? Check

[tyckspoon]

I'm hearing a lot of "I don't want to suck but I want to be dragon-y" and no one suggested Dragon Shaman?


Breath weapon? Check
Dragon Wings? Check
Decent class with useful abilities? Check


Probably because the common opinion on Dragon Shamans is that they're really not that good. Breath weapon's weak, wings don't show up until forever, most all the other abilities are at best uninspiring, and if you really want one of the auras at a point where they're most relevant (low levels, generally) you can snag it with a feat.

[Xintas]

For high OP, sure, they aren't that great, but the DR and Fast Healing auras are great at low levels for newish players, and OP did say it was for a game with a bunch of new players. This makes him kind of invaluable and also gets the dragon flavor going.

[Prometheian]

Group has a cleric. While I haven't settled on a prestige class, and I'm not sure the DM will even allow them for a bit since he's new as well, I've got my feats and other stuff picked out. :D

Thanks guys.

[Averis Vol]

First of all, welcome to the game man, hope you have as much fun as the rest of us :D Secondly, lets see what we can do about your build.

You want to be a battle dancer. Alright, it isn't god awful strong, but it's a pretty cool class.

Let's start of with Battle dancer 1/Battle sorcerer 4 (Unearthed arcana, variant classes)

This gets you your fighting style and the spellcasting needed for Ascetic mage (From complete adventurer) and dragon disciple, which allows you to progress your AC bonus from Battle dancer (a measly +1, but still you need all you can get if you aren't wearing armor:smallbiggrin:) and gives you the ability to channel your magic into a physical attack should you need it. it isn't much damage, but you have a bunch of spell slots.

That start will be enough to get you into Dragon disciple, and from there you can take as many levels as you want. If you want wings earlier though, go with a dragon blooded race from Dragon magic, I prefer silverbrow human, but theres tons of cool ones, and take the dragon wings feat from Races of the dragon. This gets you wings not quite strong enough to fly with, but ones that give you +10 to jump and the ability to glide, super useful to avoid fall damage.

At level six you can take the improved version to gain actual flight for a few rounds at a time before having to spend a turn gliding it out.

That should be a good start, in 6 levels you have dragon wings and battle dancing, as well as decent HD to boot (Battle sorcerer gets 1d8 per level instead of 1d4 and uses rogue Base attack bonus progression, pretty sweet for a gish.)

See if your dm will let this fly and come back, no use getting your hopes up for something that isn't gonna happen after all.