Well God DM it... Surviving Dragon Fight? (3.5)

[~xFellWardenx~]

Yes, the title is a pun. No, I'm not the DM, and I don't think the DM did anything wrong. Just a pun.

Hey, everyone! I've been lurking for months, but this is my first post on the Playground, so, it's nice to meet you all! Sorry if I fail at life. I come today regarding my need for help in hopefully ensuring the survival of my entire party.

Long story short, the party (including me) had recently begun a long, multi-session trek through the snowy mountains in order to fight some dragon-worshiping cultists who lived there. After we destroyed the main cultist base, however, we found a sub-section of the area where the cultist leader was talking to the object of the cultists' affections, a literally Huge sized white dragon (or at least, I'm guessing it was Huge, because I usually think of "large" as the size of like, ogres and small giants, which this dragon vastly outsized). Now, I'm not meta-gamey enough to have my character act with this knowledge in mind, but I know personally that it being Huge means it's a mature adult at least, and thus definitely quite a bit stronger than us (we're all level 7). However, what my character does know is that dragons are incredibly powerful and that they are capable of casting spells like a mage.

So, we all unanimously agreed that we weren't strong enough to fight a dragon who appeared to be at least an adult (we had gotten mauled just a few in-game months ago by a small red dragon) and we all left. Or so I thought. Turns out the party troublemaker thought it would be legit to try to trick the dragon into eating the cultist leader and, while it worked, he got caught after. So when we finished crawling out of that decrepit place, we were closely followed by a screaming and sprinting elf who we didn't realize had fallen behind... And then a giant dragon bursting forth from the ground, destroying the lobby of the hideout entirely. And then the session ended, and we have a week to prepare for what's coming. Needless to say, we are all rather angry and terrified.

It's my job, being the party wizard and general strategist, to ensure the survival and successful fleeing of my party. Unfortunately, with the fact this thing has incredible offensive abilities, some magic, and incredible speed (all things I and the party learned from my reading about people who had done battle with dragons in the past and the writings of archmagi who studied dragons) I don't know how we can escape, and winning is out of the question...

... Not least because my group and I are all super non-optimized. Something we have no intention of changing, of course, as all of us prefer it that way, especially our most-beloved DM. (No hate against the optimization this forum is fond of, of course; I'm far too immature to realize that you having fun with something else is actually something I'm supposed to argue about). I think we take it to the next level, though, since even the people who designed the rulebooks would probably be giving us tips about building a more balanced and effective party...

I'll give a quick overview of the resources I have to work with for surviving this, mainly the composition and remaining spells of the party.

The person generally considered the "party leader" is Dormin, a human Cleric who stands in a very strange position; he's a Lawful Neutral worshiper of Ghaunadaur, but due to their alignment differences, he can't actually gain spells from Ghaunadaur; however, his faith in the god and said god's ideals is so incredibly strong that said devotion brought his divine powers into existence. So yeah, his domains are Slime and Hatred. He used up his human feat to gain bastard sword proficiency, and he now wields said bastard sword one-handed with a steel shield and full plate armor. He has used up about half his spells so far today, what with bringing the battle to the cultists and healing us afterwords. He currently doesn't have any rebuked oozes with him. His remaining spell list is:

1st level:
Grease, Cure Light Wounds x2

2nd Level:
Restoration, Lesser

3rd Level:
Dispel Magic

So yeah, not a whole lot to work with here. I don't actually know his feats other than gaining bastard sword proficiency, by the way.

The next member of the party is the elf rogue, previously-mentioned "troublemaker". Is not a UMD user so that's off the table, but she has pretty good ranged combat ability and could probably do a better job at running from the dragon than the rest of us for what it's worth. I also know she has a dust of sneezing and choking on-hand that she got from one of the cultists, who she killed before it could be used against us; it might actually be worth something here, but I'm sort of doubting it. So yeah... No feat information on her either, btw, except that she's capable with both dual-wielding daggers and fighting at range with a bow.

Then we have our trusty main melee combatant, the no-spellcasting variant Paladin of Freedom who has traded his mount for Charging Smite. He is a human with a mithral breastplate and a magical greatsword (exact boosts, I haven't a clue). He... will probably be useless here. No ranged weapons, charging it won't help much, and even with his durability it will probably eat his face off in seconds. And yet again (I'm sure you see the trend) I have no feat information.

Last but not least, you've got me. I'm a dwarf wizard 5/MotAO 2 who specializes in transmutation and has conjuration and necromancy banned. Here's a quick rundown of my feats and the remainder of my magic:

Feats:
1st: Improved Initiative
3rd: Extend Spell
5th: Cooperative Spell
6th: Spell Focus (Transmutation)
7th: Quicken Spell

And the spells I have left to use:
Cantrips:
Detect Magic

1st Level:
Feather Fall

2nd Level:
Scorching Ray, Knock, Rope Trick

3rd Level:
Dispel Magic, Blink

4th Level:
Resilient Sphere

Again, not a whole lot to work with here, especially considering the saves that thing is probably packing.

All of us are at pretty high HP, so that won't be a concern, though that thing can still probably one-shot any of us. As for items and already-active buffs, there's not much to offer; all of our buffs that we put up during the fight against the cultists have worn off aside from the fact that I still have Fly active. We plucked a few resist energy potions off the cultists, but I somehow don't think taking the time to drink those is the best use of our presumably limited remaining actions before we are murdered.

We're currently just outside the now destroyed upper layer of the building, which descends into the mountain itself (in a sense going underground, though that feels weird with how high up it still is). We are on a pretty flat place right now, about a hundred feet around, after which there's a cliff face on one side, gradual declines on two sides, and on the last side, we'd be continuing up one of the hills. There is very little to provide us any cover, and the weather is currently clear, if those two things matter.

What should we do in this situation? What kind of plans do we have to attempt to escape with our lives? Honor isn't really a concern here, except that I'm not willing to distract the dragon by feeding it fellow party members.

[SlaadLord]

Get ahead of your party (you're flying, and so likely faster than they are), set up rope trick, and hide? I dunno. Your options are pretty slim; negotiation is out with the rogue's shenanigans, and the lowest-CR Huge white dragon would maul you all. I'd tell you to save yourself, but given you're not OK with that option, the best I can think of is to hide in the Rope Trick until it either loses interest or moves on long enough for you to get the hell out of the area.

[Maginomicon]

You're a wizard. If you can find a way to hide from it or make it believe that you all died in the cave-in, do it. (Rope Trick works, if you've got it) Rest overnight, and then prepare a miles-long teleportation spell to get you all out of there.


Any DM that plays a dragon intelligently (they have super-intelligence) will have it literally eat you for breakfast and still have room for the village down the mountain. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFnTRfR46Gc)



Dragons don't fight fair.

Edit: I'm being told that even one dedicated archer in Pathfinder can be a freaking buzzsaw against aerial targets. Guess who's getting the first face-full of fire. And the second. And the third. Bottom line, Legolas is going down. And if that's not possible, dragon flies away. They're nothing if not patient.

[Twilightwyrm]

Let me start by saying you are by no means super-nonoptimized. Yeah, there are some un-optimized points, but not to a considerable degree. Now, on to the suggestion:

You say this is a White Dragon, so keep in mind that even a Mature Adult age, it will only have 3rd CL spell casting (meaning 1st level spells at best, since it is Sorcerer progression). So you don't have much to worry about in terms of spellcasting against you. Now, since it does not seem you've left any slots open, you are right, your own options are very limited, and this thing is going to have upwards of 200 HP. If you had Rope Trick extended, you would have the perfect opportunity for you and your party to rest, recuperate, and re-prepare spells. You have Fly on, but you cannot out-fly the Dragon. What you do have over the Dragon is maneuverability. So here is one option: first chance you get, cast Rope Trick, preferably wile the dragon is still fairly far away. Your party gets inside, but does not start preparing/resting. Now, next round you get, cast Resilient Sphere on yourself, and start trying to draw the dragon away, using Scorching Ray to harass it if it starts getting cheeky and standing outside the Rope Trick. Use your temporary immunity to damage to get to the ruin of the tower, and inside, with the dragon in in pursuit. Hopefully, a tower build for humanoid sized cultists will be small enough to rule out the dragon following you. Your party takes the first opportunity, once the dragon is gone, to get out of the Rope Trick and sneak away. You, now hopefully stashes far enough away in the ruined building that the dragon cannot get to you, take the time to rest, re-prepare spells, and grab Shadow Phase, or Primal Form into an Air Elemental (Spell Compendium), invisibility, and Message to sneak out of the tower yourself, and let the rest of your party where to met up with you. Hopefully the angry dragon has not found any of you during this time. This is a risky plan, but it is one of the only ways I see you guys surviving.

[Haldir]

Offer to become the dragons' new cultists.

Or use your Rope Trick. If you're in the mountains and can use your Scorching Ray to create a landslide to cover yourselves as if you had been swept away, that'd be great. Good luck with that though.

You may still be able to Diplomacy out of this. Turn around and knock out the Rogue, hopefully the dragon will take notice as you offer your services as an adventurer in return for your pathetic life.

[Twilightwyrm]

Any DM that plays a dragon intelligently (they have super-intelligence) will have it literally eat you for breakfast and still have room for the village down the mountain. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFnTRfR46Gc)

Any DM that wishes to play his Dragons realistically is at liberty to do so, but should keep in mind that even a Mature Adult White Dragon has only 1st level spells, and is only slightly more intelligent that any of the residents of said village down the mountain, and this should be played appropriately.

[SiuiS]

Hi there!

I suggests you grovel. Grovel spectacularly. Flatter, placate and build up their most eminently scaled destruction, and demean yourself before Nature's incarnate fury. Offer everything but the clothes on your back, including an apology for needing those clothes to be accepted back into town to spread news of their glory.

[Hurnn]

try to use the dust on it even if it saves vs the con dammage, which it will the 5d4 rounds of stun no save leave it screwed.

[Maginomicon]

Any DM that wishes to play his Dragons realistically is at liberty to do so, but should keep in mind that even a Mature Adult White Dragon has only 1st level spells, and is only slightly more intelligent that any of the residents of said village down the mountain, and this should be played appropriately.
Doesn't matter. Watch the video.

[Averis Vol]

Hi there!

I suggests you grovel. Grovel spectacularly. Flatter, placate and build up their most eminently scaled destruction, and demean yourself before Nature's incarnate fury. Offer everything but the clothes on your back, including an apology for needing those clothes to be accepted back into town to spread news of their glory.

And when hes standing there with that snide look of satisfaction you peg him in his fat face with the dust and start wailing on him for all you're forth. The rogue will be getting sneak attack when he passes that save, which, he pretty much always should, and the pally can set up all the charging smites he wants, with 5d4 rounds (minimum 5 whopping rounds) you guys should chew through all those HP's.

[Bullet06320]

1. charge n pray every hit is crit before the dragon can retailiate
2. sacrifice the rouge and run
3. grovel, diplo, a good dm could use this to make it more interesting
4. rope trick buys you 7 hours, unless extended, then u got time to rest and refresh spells, hiding the rest of the party as already stated is one of your best options I think, then u fly away, rest refresh spells, and come back to rescue them

resiliant sphere will protect u for 7 mins, but you cant move and cant cast out of it, but buys u time to negotiate if u want to go that route

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hit it with the dust of choking and sneezing then RUN!.

At a glance, I don't think you're even capable of killing this thing unless that dust comes up near maximum duration, which the DM may roll in secret. Seriously, flee with all haste. Also, be prepared for a TPK as it's not terribly unlikely.

Btw, how is a (false) cleric of Ghaunadar traveling in the company of a paladin without them being constantly at each others' throats?

[Averis Vol]

Hit it with the dust of choking and sneezing then RUN!.

At a glance, I don't think you're even capable of killing this thing unless that dust comes up near maximum duration, which the DM may roll in secret. Seriously, flee with all haste. Also, be prepared for a TPK as it's not terribly unlikely.

Btw, how is a (false) cleric of Ghaunadar traveling in the company of a paladin without them being constantly at each others' throats?

I don't know, if they hit it with the dust, they're now on its **** list, like, forever, dragons are kind of like elephants. if the rogue goes two weapon with his daggers, thats 8d6+2d4+whatever a round in damage. a 2 ray scorching ray from the OP hits for another 8d6+1/2 the result due to the whole fire on a white dragon thing. The paladin is hitting for atleast 2d6+14 on a charge, so min 16 before whatever additional bonuses he has from strength and weapon. the cleric can beat on it with his bastard sword in two hands, but that's probably not the most worthwhile thing in this fight.

So, assuming avg damage for everyone we have*: 46 damage from the rogue a round, 52 from the scorching ray, 21 from the paladin on a charging smite, and lets say, 6 from the cleric. that's 119 HP on the first turn.

I think they could do it, even if they don't get that extra 52 from the scorching ray in the subsequent 4 rounds at least, thats still 68 a round which is more then enough to drop ol' whitey.

*I am terrible at math, so I could be a little bit off.

[Wrathof42]

You banned conjuration!? That hurts my soul...

All joking aside I would say just hide in an extended rope trick and wait until you have a better chance to make a break for it. Dragons generally don't stay in their lair all the time, but I suppose that's up to your GM.

[Evo_Kaer]

I don't know, if they hit it with the dust, they're now on its **** list, like, forever, dragons are kind of like elephants. if the rogue goes two weapon with his daggers, thats 8d6+2d4+whatever a round in damage. a 2 ray scorching ray from the OP hits for another 8d6+1/2 the result due to the whole fire on a white dragon thing. The paladin is hitting for atleast 2d6+14 on a charge, so min 16 before whatever additional bonuses he has from strength and weapon. the cleric can beat on it with his bastard sword in two hands, but that's probably not the most worthwhile thing in this fight.

So, assuming avg damage for everyone we have*: 46 damage from the rogue a round, 52 from the scorching ray, 21 from the paladin on a charging smite, and lets say, 6 from the cleric. that's 119 HP on the first turn.

I think they could do it, even if they don't get that extra 52 from the scorching ray in the subsequent 4 rounds at least, thats still 68 a round which is more then enough to drop ol' whitey.

*I am terrible at math, so I could be a little bit off.

Um..... that things got DR 10/magic. Soooo, even with the Paladin having a magic sword, if the others don't have them, then thats a significant reduce in DPR. Next thing: AC 28, stunned still 26. I suppose the Rogue will have problems hitting that with probably no more than +10 Atk. So there's even more damage wasted. Then we have Spell Resistance 20. Casterlvl 7 means they need to roll at least 13 to get through thats a 60% fail chance. Not very good chances in my book.

I'm with the RUN proposal, BUT with slight additions:
- Get the Paladin to talk the dragon down. Let him apologize, tell him that you only got rid of the cultist leader, because he wanted to betray the dragon. Yeah, the dragon probably won't buy it, but it will buy you some time. Even if he's not the most convincing one, I'm sure he will survive a single strike from the dragon.
- VERY IMPORTANT: The Pally should never get to close to the dragon for various reasons.
- While the pally talks and distracts the dragon, do the following: The rogue should prepare to through the Dust Bag. The cleric should prepare Grease and you should prepare Scorching Ray.
- Watch the dragon. If you see he's getting annoyed: First through the bag. Then grease the floor below the dragon and finally ignite the grease on the floor. With all that I'm sure the dragon will be more than occupied to help himself and will not bother chasing you for quite a while.

- Now comes the RUN.
- Hide somewhere completely random. Away from the dragon, at least partially hidden from sight and cast Rope trick. 7 Hours should give you some time to sit it out.

[Averis Vol]

Um..... that things got DR 10/magic. Soooo, even with the Paladin having a magic sword, if the others don't have them, then thats a significant reduce in DPR. Next thing: AC 28, stunned still 26. I suppose the Rogue will have problems hitting that with probably no more than +10 Atk. So there's even more damage wasted. Then we have Spell Resistance 20. Casterlvl 7 means they need to roll at least 13 to get through thats a 60% fail chance. Not very good chances in my book.

I'm with the RUN proposal, BUT with slight additions:
- Get the Paladin to talk the dragon down. Let him apologize, tell him that you only got rid of the cultist leader, because he wanted to betray the dragon. Yeah, the dragon probably won't buy it, but it will buy you some time. Even if he's not the most convincing one, I'm sure he will survive a single strike from the dragon.
- VERY IMPORTANT: The Pally should never get to close to the dragon for various reasons.
- While the pally talks and distracts the dragon, do the following: The rogue should prepare to through the Dust Bag. The cleric should prepare Grease and you should prepare Scorching Ray.
- Watch the dragon. If you see he's getting annoyed: First through the bag. Then grease the floor below the dragon and finally ignite the grease on the floor. With all that I'm sure the dragon will be more than occupied to help himself and will not bother chasing you for quite a while.

- Now comes the RUN.
- Hide somewhere completely random. Away from the dragon, at least partially hidden from sight and cast Rope trick. 7 Hours should give you some time to sit it out.

Nah, they got this. Theres nothing earned if nothing is risked. If they also grease the ground, the stunned dragon will also fall, so take off another four AC for being prone, and now he is in a fairly reasonable to hit range (21 AC, 29 vs Ranged attacks)

Also, if you are going to run, don't spend actions you could be taking to move by attacking, that will just piss the thing off.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't know, if they hit it with the dust, they're now on its **** list, like, forever, dragons are kind of like elephants. if the rogue goes two weapon with his daggers, thats 8d6+2d4+whatever a round in damage. a 2 ray scorching ray from the OP hits for another 8d6+1/2 the result due to the whole fire on a white dragon thing. The paladin is hitting for atleast 2d6+14 on a charge, so min 16 before whatever additional bonuses he has from strength and weapon. the cleric can beat on it with his bastard sword in two hands, but that's probably not the most worthwhile thing in this fight.

So, assuming avg damage for everyone we have*: 46 damage from the rogue a round, 52 from the scorching ray, 21 from the paladin on a charging smite, and lets say, 6 from the cleric. that's 119 HP on the first turn.

I think they could do it, even if they don't get that extra 52 from the scorching ray in the subsequent 4 rounds at least, thats still 68 a round which is more then enough to drop ol' whitey.

*I am terrible at math, so I could be a little bit off.

Heh, no.

DR 10/magic, SR 20, AC 28, and 241hp (avg).

The rogue is a ranged rogue, so no TWF. I'm guessing a shortbow for 5d6 on a hit; avg 17.5. If the beast is stunned its AC is 26. At most he's sporting a +9 atk. That's a 20% chance to hit. Over 12 rounds he's likely to hit -twice- for about 18 damage. After DR that's about 16 damage for the whole duration of the dust.

The cleric is probably looking at a +8 and if he's two-handing that bastard sword, it's probably something like 1d10+3 for about 8 damage a hit. At 15% he, too, is only really likely to hit twice in 12 rounds. Unfortunately his damage is negated completely by the DR.

The wizard has one scorching ray prep'ed. He'll probably hit the 8 touch AC but then he's got to get past the SR 20. At only 40% chance to penetrate, only one -may- get through for a couple d4's times 1.5 of damage.

The paladin will be able to lay into the critter okay; probably something like +11 to attack and his magic sword will penetrate the DR. Unfortunately that's still only going to be half his attacks getting through at 2d6+5 for around 12 damage a hit, plus one regular smite with I'd hazard around a 60% chance of hitting for an extra 7 and a charging smite at 70% for 14 extra. If we assume both smites hit for 21 and they make up 2 of the 7 or so hits over 12 rounds comes to about 105 damage; respectable but inadequate.

-Maybe- if the dust rolls close to maximum duration, they've got a shot but that's putting a helluva lot on a single roll of the dice with long odds.

Basically what I'm saying is that, unless they flee or the dice gods love them, they're doomed and that's -if- their numbers are as high as I'm estimating.

[Enguebert]

The good news :
White dragon are the weakest. Nearly no spell and a weak breath

The bad news :
It is a dragon. One of the worse foe for his CR

Some general tips
- avoid full attack from dragon. But also beware of his reach (only one AoO but if you can avoid, it is better)
- expect him to make all his saves
- dragon can fly. try to fight him where he cannot fly. And if you are underground, his size can be an hindrance and allow you to flee & hide

[KorbeltheReader]

The paladin should drink an energy protection potion, take the dust, and use it on the dragon. Whether you run or try to kill it while it's stunned is up to you. Personally, I think AC 26 stunned means you just don't have the numbers to take this thing, but I generally play it safe with these things.

[~xFellWardenx~]

To those of you who have suggested Extended Rope Trick, I'd like to remind you that as a wizard if I want Metamagic I need to apply it when preparing the spell. As I haven't, there isn't much I can do about that. I'm figuring the grease-fire-and-bag-toss plan is my most effective plan. As for where we run, I'm thinking that since "escape from dragon" is our top priority, we'll throw ourselves over the cliff face in unison, free-fall for a while, and then use Feather Fall at the last chance before using rope trick on the bottom... Possibly with prestidigitation to knock some snow down on top of the rope segment. Hopefully it will give up in seven hours or so.

[Hurnn]

To reitterate: dust + split up and run like hell.

To anyone thinking well "white Dragons are dumb" at that age it is more intelegent, and has more wisdom than the average human.

Someone said you will make an enemy forever; and maybe so. However forever seems like a much longer time when you are alive.

[Calimehter]

The dragon didn't seem to care much while you were destroying the 'main cultist base' right upstairs . . . which is seems very odd to me. It could have just been metagamey dungeon design (monsters on tougher levels *stay* on tougher levels and never come out of their rooms), but I'd say (or at least hope) that there's more going on here than that.

if you decide to attempt the diplomacy/apology route, you might try to inquire as to why the dragon didn't seem to care about the destruction of its own cultists. If the dragon was upset at its own cultists for some reason, or there was some other intrigue afoot, you've at least got an angle to play off of for survival.

[Zirconia]

If the cleric and rogue actually have magic weapons you may not be aware of, you might have a chance to beat it with the dust of sneezing and choking. I would expect everyone in a party at 7th level to have at least a +1 weapon, unless this is a low magic campaign. The rogue would be getting all sneak attacks on a stunned/flanked foe, which could help. It would be worth having the cleric spend a round using Grease right off the bat, the +4 to hit will help a lot with what would otherwise be a fair amount of whiffing.

From the SRD:
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su)
The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

If anyone has alchemists fire/oil and they don't have a magic weapon they could start piling those on. A helpless target is perfect for the ongoing damage of that kind of thing. Any party I've been in has at least half a dozen oil flasks for burning things, lanterns, etc., at 2d6/1d6 over 2 rounds each that is another 18d6, which could beat what the cleric could do with a non-magic weapon.

As Kelb calculated earlier, otherwise, with the DR/10 magic it would be pretty hard to win with just 1 magic weapon, and the Dust followed by run, leap off the cliff and Feather Fall option might be a good one.

[Darkz0r]

Don't forget to post next week telling us what happened ;)

I think there's a lot of good suggestions. Though if you are fighting, you have to know your DM. Would he "let" you guys kill it? Does he roll in secret? Etc.

[DMJeff]

I cant recall but there is an off shoot book collection called The slayers guide to ----- , Dragons , DM's, Gnoll's ect... I have both equally found useless and good options in there. I'd suggest it's at least worth having a look. I recall reading a few years ago well making a sup hunter so to speak. And found some useful thing's I still use to this day.

[Twilightwyrm]

Doesn't matter. Watch the video.

I did watch the video, and it does matter. Yes, a White Dragon might have alarm cast on the entrance, yes this dragon might even circle strafe. In this scenario it simply does not matter, because the party's current objective is "run" rather than "attack". Finally, as much as I respect Spoony, he makes two faulty assumptions: a) dragons are always very intelligent and b) dragons are NOT arrogant as hell. Yeah, maybe the dragon takes to the air after losing 1/4th to 1/2 of it HP (because things have become serious), or sooner if the dragon already accepts that the group is a considerable threat. As a human being, you aren't going to grab your gun and climb into a tree out of reach just because a rabbit starts bitting at your heels; you're going to kick the rabbit. Why exactly would the same not apply to the dragon.

[Maginomicon]

I did watch the video, and it does matter. Yes, a White Dragon might have alarm cast on the entrance, yes this dragon might even circle strafe. In this scenario it simply does not matter, because the party's current objective is "run" rather than "attack". Finally, as much as I respect Spoony, he makes two faulty assumptions: a) dragons are always very intelligent and b) dragons are NOT arrogant as hell. Yeah, maybe the dragon takes to the air after losing 1/4th to 1/2 of it HP (because things have become serious), or sooner if the dragon already accepts that the group is a considerable threat. As a human being, you aren't going to grab your gun and climb into a tree out of reach just because a rabbit starts bitting at your heels; you're going to kick the rabbit. Why exactly would the same not apply to the dragon.
You can be certain a rabbit isn't going to hurt you much.

A dragon, even a white dragon, knows that he don't know. He can't be certain the "HU-MAN" isn't a melee combat beast or is otherwise vastly more dangerous at close range. He don't know whether that's the case because of what little he does know: a "HU-MAN" can be versatile and tricky. A rabbit is neither of those things. Furthermore, it takes zero effort for him to take to the sky and stay up there where the "HU-MAN" is less likely to be able to affect him no matter what the "HU-MAN" is capable of. Natch.

Let me put it this way. I played a Dragonwrought Spellscale Sorcerer with Improved Dragon Wings. I did strafing runs with spells and a breath weapon. Nothing the module had could really touch me, and it took me zero effort to gain that universal advantage.

It's a split-half approach to troubleshooting the problem:
"The HU-MAN might be dangerous at close range. I have infinite ammo at long range. I've got time and can rip up anything the HU-MAN can hide behind."

[Twilightwyrm]

You can be certain a rabbit isn't going to hurt you much.

A dragon, even a white dragon, knows that he don't know. He can't be certain the "HU-MAN" isn't a melee combat beast or is otherwise vastly more dangerous at close range. He don't know whether that's the case because of what little he does know: a "HU-MAN" can be versatile and tricky. A rabbit is neither of those things. Furthermore, it takes zero effort for him to take to the sky and stay up there where the "HU-MAN" is less likely to be able to affect him no matter what the "HU-MAN" is capable of. Natch.

Let me put it this way. I played a Dragonwrought Spellscale Sorcerer with Improved Dragon Wings. I did strafing runs with spells and a breath weapon. Nothing the module had could really touch me, and it took me zero effort to gain that universal advantage.

It's a split-half approach to troubleshooting the problem:
"The HU-MAN might be dangerous at close range. I have infinite ammo at long range. I've got time and can rip up anything the HU-MAN can hide behind."

You mean to tell me that a Huge, arrogant, White Dragon, whose claws are as long as that tiny barbarian's giant sword, is not going to at least try to cut him to ribbons before retreating to the air? Sure, humans can be tricky, but let's face it: the majority of the humans said dragon is liable to have run into in its lifetime are likely groveling, or screeming and running away. Sure, these ones are foolish enough to come into the dragon's home, maybe even hardy enough to have killed the cult that was worshiping it, but all that means is that they might actually be an interesting challenge to eat alive. It does not mean the dragon has to retreat to the safety of the air at the first opportunity.

Note: How the did you get a Dragonwrought Spellscale? Sounds like there is an interesting story here.

[Maginomicon]

You mean to tell me that a Huge, arrogant, White Dragon, whose claws are as long as that tiny barbarian's giant sword, is not going to at least try to cut him to ribbons before retreating to the air? Sure, humans can be tricky, but let's face it: the majority of the humans said dragon is liable to have run into in its lifetime are likely groveling, or screeming and running away. Sure, these ones are foolish enough to come into the dragon's home, maybe even hardy enough to have killed the cult that was worshiping it, but all that means is that they might actually be an interesting challenge to eat alive. It does not mean the dragon has to retreat to the safety of the air at the first opportunity.

Note: How the did you get a Dragonwrought Spellscale? Sounds like there is an interesting story here.
I was mistaken. It wasn't Dragonwrought but Draconic Heritage through the Spellscale's Dragonblooded Sorcerer substitution levels. From there I took Draconic Breath (Gold), Dragon Wings, and then Improved Dragon Wings.

Anywho, what the dragon does know in this case is that these HU-MANS just tricked it into eating the leader of his cult. He doesn't want to be tricked again. He's cautious now. It's a fair guess that he's not going to take his chances with how much danger he's willing to put himself into to get his revenge.

[Dr. Cliché]

You mean to tell me that a Huge, arrogant, White Dragon, whose claws are as long as that tiny barbarian's giant sword, is not going to at least try to cut him to ribbons before retreating to the air?

Why would the dragon consider flying to be 'retreating'? It's not like he's running from the battle.

Surely they're the cowards for staying on the ground and refusing to come up and fight him properly?

(It's hardly his fault if the humans didn't have the foresight to be born with wings.)

[Blackhawk748]

You saw "tricked" i say he was annoyed at the leader and decided to have a snack. Now several things to know about White Dragons:

1. The have the highest AC for their CR among dragons
2. They are pretty much the barbarians of Dragons, they are usually violent and angry.
3. He may start strafing you, if he has time to think, otherwise he'll be more than happy to shred you with that full attack.
4. White Dragons are MVAPs (Multi Vector Assault Platforms, its what i call them lol) They can fly, the have a good land speed, they can burrow and they can swim.
5. Heres the best part, White Dragons tend to hold grudges. You think a beholder is cranky, you should see an angry White, oh wait i guess you have.

In short, throw the dust and run like the devil himself is after you, because you have something almost as bad

[Twilightwyrm]

Why would the dragon consider flying to be 'retreating'? It's not like he's running from the battle.

Surely they're the cowards for staying on the ground and refusing to come up and fight him properly?

(It's hardly his fault if the humans didn't have the foresight to be born with wings.)

Really? Is that not a bit like calling a fish a coward for not climbing out of the sea and fighting you on land? Dragons may be arrogant enough to not instantly use the most optimal strategy, but I cannot see them being that moronic in their arrogance. The dragon is going to know the characters cannot fly, and thus knows that flying will make it difficult to get at him. Hence "retreating" to the air.

[Blackhawk748]

I do agree, he probably wouldnt take off until hes lost a fair chunk of HP, then he just gets mad and wants you dead. So he proceeds with operation Freezer Blitz

[iceman10058]

offer it all your gold and the rogue as tribute to your new lord and master, untill you can rest, recuperate, and kill the bastard lol. it the dm plays the dragon as i would, whites are very arrogant and not too bright so it has the possibility to work, but combat is out for you and you cant outrun it as it can burrow under you and suprise you.

[ShadowFireLance]

5. Heres the best part, White Dragons tend to hold grudges. You think a beholder is cranky, you should see an angry White, oh wait i guess you have.

In short, throw the dust and run like the devil himself is after you, because you have something almost as bad

Can I sig this please, I love it. :smallbiggrin:

[Blackhawk748]

Woohoo sig quoted twice lol go nuts

@iceman: honestly the White isnt really stupid anymore, if its Huge hes got a 12 int and a 13 wis, so hes smarter than your average human. Now this doesnt mean you can pull a Bilbo and attempt to flatter him, cuz lets be honest its a dragon and they love that.

[Averis Vol]

Woohoo sig quoted twice lol go nuts

@iceman: honestly the White isnt really stupid anymore, if its Huge hes got a 12 int and a 13 wis, so hes smarter than your average humanFighter. Now this doesnt mean you can pull a Bilbo and attempt to flatter him, cuz lets be honest its a dragon and they love that.

Fixed that :smallbiggrin:

[Blackhawk748]

Wait wha-......... hey! lol

[Twilightwyrm]

I was mistaken. It wasn't Dragonwrought but Draconic Heritage through the Spellscale's Dragonblooded Sorcerer substitution levels. From there I took Draconic Breath (Gold), Dragon Wings, and then Improved Dragon Wings.

Anywho, what the dragon does know in this case is that these HU-MANS just tricked it into eating the leader of his cult. He doesn't want to be tricked again. He's cautious now. It's a fair guess that he's not going to take his chances with how much danger he's willing to put himself into to get his revenge.

Ah I see. Yeah, that could be helpful.

In this particular case, perhaps either way. But, unless these guys are actually going to fight a creature 5+ CR higher them in melee combat (not a great idea), then it is a non-issue. As these guys should probably be running, I can only expect that the dragon will be attempting to use their breath weapon to kill the fleeing PCs. But, should they come back later to fight (especially if the dragon does not recognize them), they shouldn't expect it to immediately take to the air an circle strafe them.

[elonin]

I also recommend groveling to the dragon, though I don't see this happening with the good person? people? in the party.

I found the guy on the video annoying with what he is assuming for a 3.5 party. I am in favor of seeing dragons being played up to their intelligence. I have a 11th level ranger who is admittedly specked for ranged that is pulling down much more than d6 for combat. And the only resource he has in PF that isn't available in 3.5 is deadly aim.

[PraxisVetli]

I do agree, he probably wouldnt take off until hes lost a fair chunk of HP, then he just gets mad and wants you dead. So he proceeds with operation Freezer Blitz

I think this needs to be an actual term.
Dragons strafing needs to be (Appropriate adj. for energy) Blits.
Heater Blitz.
Freezer Blitz.
Tazer Blits
Not feeling witty enough for Acid or Sonic..

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

If I had to fight a dragon and he never landed, I would call him chicken and everyone in the future will remember the chicken dragon, not the dead PC. That is why he should land :smallbiggrin:

I suggest not fighting it if the rogue doesn't have magic daggers. No magic weapon oils around at all? Try to hide and use rope trick. Don't use dust for running away, because if it finds you later, you will have to fight it without the dust and then you will die.

I am too curious how he tricked the dragon to eat the cultist :D

[Averis Vol]

Caustic blits and concussive blits.

[PraxisVetli]

Caustic blits and concussive blits.

There ya go!

[HolyCouncilMagi]

Well you've certainly found yourself in an unpleasant scenario. I would join the league of people telling you to prostrate yourself and mewl like a kitten for mercy while offering your women rogue as a payment. However, that's really unfitting for a group of great adventurers. As such, if you're close enough and it's hovering or something, I'd recommend readying an action to cast a spell, having the Rogue give you the Dust of Sneezing and Choking and then tumblestab the dragon to piss it off more (it already probably didn't much like the guy as-is if he really tricked it into eating the cultist leader somehow) and then using your readied spell to cover him in a Resilient Sphere. This buys you an extra round as the dragon, not being particularly affluent in the ways of magic, will most likely attempt to smash or, better yet, waste its breath in an effort to kill the Rogue, who will be protected by the sphere. The rest of the party spends the round this is all happening running away, of course, but I actually recommend that said running go towards one of the slopes rather than diving off the face of the cliff since the dragon just has more opportunities to burrow and ambush you later if you do that. Tell the Cleric, however, to turn back after the first round or two of running.

Now, since the dragon has probably realized by this point that the sphere is invincible (or, if you're lucky, he'll think it just needs more damage and you might get another round or two before he figures it out) the dragon will be coming after you or the other party members; most likely you, if he hasn't seen the Cleric cast any spells yet, as they're all cowards who run and you are a seemingly powerful spellcaster. Cue chase scene; I recommend using Blink and then fleeing like mad, as your chances for survival are basically null if it hits you with a full attack. Oh, and do so on foot, as the next steps will be harder if the dragon goes airborne; you're slow enough that its land speed should be enough that it won't want to take the time to go into flight if you're just running, since it can catch up to you every round anyway. Depending on your ability to take a half-damage breath attack and your luck on dodging standard action single attacks, you might just survive for five or six rounds; with this, you've drawn the dragon away, giving the Cleric time to come over and Dispel your Resilient Sphere and the whole group can get a head start while the dragon isn't looking at where they're headed.

Once you've hit your limit on survivability, toss the bag of DoS&C at the dragon, then resume flying; I don't recommend you go toward your group, however, as the dragon is probably watching you specifically at the moment. Maybe shoot a Scorching Ray at it for good measure once Blink runs out just to keep it pissed off at you. With that, flee towards a rocky or enclosed area, wait and watch the dragon until you see it start to move (most likely in your direction) then duck down and use Rope Trick to hide until it gives up.

Boom, everyone will probably get away safely. And you can say you technically overcame an encounter with a CR that was way huge if you want to squeeze your DM for more XP.

[Hurnn]

You mean to tell me that a Huge, arrogant, White Dragon, whose claws are as long as that tiny barbarian's giant sword, is not going to at least try to cut him to ribbons before retreating to the air? Sure, humans can be tricky, but let's face it: the majority of the humans said dragon is liable to have run into in its lifetime are likely groveling, or screeming and running away. Sure, these ones are foolish enough to come into the dragon's home, maybe even hardy enough to have killed the cult that was worshiping it, but all that means is that they might actually be an interesting challenge to eat alive. It does not mean the dragon has to retreat to the safety of the air at the first opportunity.

Note: How the did you get a Dragonwrought Spellscale? Sounds like there is an interesting story here.

Yes, the end.

The dragon is arrogant but surrendering your advantage before you know anything of your opponent is the height of stupidity, A trait that anything that lived to a few hundered years should have outgrown. Strafe 1-2 times see if they are nearly dead then land "maybe". If they are holding up strafe some more, or if you are really evil fly by attack grab, show the Hu-mans how stupid they are for not growing wings. The only time a dragon with the option to fly should land is to loot your body then eat it (doing it the other way is far to messy)

[BrokenChord]

Yes, the end.

The dragon is arrogant but surrendering your advantage before you know anything of your opponent is the height of stupidity, A trait that anything that lived to a few hundered years should have outgrown. Strafe 1-2 times see if they are nearly dead then land "maybe". If they are holding up strafe some more, or if you are really evil fly by attack grab, show the Hu-mans how stupid they are for not growing wings. The only time a dragon with the option to fly should land is to loot your body then eat it (doing it the other way is far to messy)

Again going to quote the previous example of the human with gun climbing tree to avoid rabbit. They aren't idiots, but white dragons are NOT as smart as your usual mental depiction of a dragon, and even the old ones are savages who, by fluff, tear apart barbarian tribes by claw, not by breath strafing. As for the human vs rabbit; sure, you could climb the tree and start sniping, but you would probably rather just kick it away. The chances of fighting a threatening humanoid in that dragon's mind is about equivalent to that rabbit having rabies, and as you can imagine, that's generally not a thought you're thinking about until AFTER it's bitten you. Now, on the other hand, I can see that approach being taken after it feels a Charging Smite from the paladin... But they can work around that if the Paladin isn't a total spazz.

[Maginomicon]

Again going to quote the previous example of the human with gun climbing tree to avoid rabbit.
ORLY? This is what happens when a "dragon" engages in melee with a "human". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCI18qAoKq4)

BTW, I'm clearly Tim in that scene. I warned you!

Seriously though, the parallels between this "bunny" analogy and the Killer Rabbit scene are frikkin' hilariously poignant.

[Hurnn]

Again going to quote the previous example of the human with gun climbing tree to avoid rabbit. They aren't idiots, but white dragons are NOT as smart as your usual mental depiction of a dragon, and even the old ones are savages who, by fluff, tear apart barbarian tribes by claw, not by breath strafing. As for the human vs rabbit; sure, you could climb the tree and start sniping, but you would probably rather just kick it away. The chances of fighting a threatening humanoid in that dragon's mind is about equivalent to that rabbit having rabies, and as you can imagine, that's generally not a thought you're thinking about until AFTER it's bitten you. Now, on the other hand, I can see that approach being taken after it feels a Charging Smite from the paladin... But they can work around that if the Paladin isn't a total spazz.

Actually you are still wrong. "most the population are no more than animalistic predators" That said "most of the population is going to be younger than this one and therfore less intelligent. The whole "their faces express a single minded ferocity rather than the shrewdness of their more powerful kin" Means he is just going to kill you and take your ****.The older ones are smarter than the average human, and wiser.

A red dragon of the same age lures you into an inescapable death trap negotiates your surrender from total saftey. Takes your stuff kills 3 of the 4 of you leaves the maimed survivor to go back to town and tell them they BETTER have his tribute ready on time and with a 10% penalty for helping the fool adventurers or he is going to burn everything and everyone.

In a family of super geniuses the guy with only a 150 IQ is still technically the dumb one. The old ones tear apart Barbarian tribes who are no threat to it at all by claw, the ones who try it on the ones who are a threat don't live to this age.

Your analogy is Wrong. It's not a human vs a rabbit. A rabbit is clearly never going to be much of a threat. This more like a human vs a snake: might be dangerous, might not. Do you remember the difference between the poisonous one and the non? What's the best way to check let it bite you? No? Probably best to shoot it, good thing I loaded up with snake shot this morning.

Infact it KNOWS they are dangerous they just killed its cult leader and Destroyed their base. 1strafe round minimum see hwo they hold up what kind of damage they can do in return, if they survive and their offence appears to be no real threat sure dive bomb full attack, 1 round someone then switch to the next tasties target.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Yes ok an int/wis of 15 is most probably scores that the party has too. I just can't see why the dragon has to outsmart them, and hard.

[BrokenChord]

First off, pretty sure they didn't kill the cult leader, the dragon did that, though apparently on accident or something... That part of the story confuses me. Anyway, however, you have to remember that "destroying the entire cult" might not be all that big a deal to the dragon, though it will perhaps piss it off. Imagine that the dragon is a lion with eye lasers and wings, the cultists are housecats who the lion let live in exchange for bringing him food, and the party are hyenas. Okay, so you've about gathered that hyenas are stronger than cats. Good to know, but the lion probably doesn't care enough to use its eye lasers on the hyenas, especially since with the Con basis and recharge time, I imagine dragons using their breath is actually pretty taxing or even fairly painful to use. The dragon still has no incentive to use much of a deliberate plan against the PCs, *especially* if they're grasping at straws to fight or flee from the get-go. I suppose all of these arguments depend on if the DM plays dragons intelligently, though.

[Dr. Cliché]

Really? Is that not a bit like calling a fish a coward for not climbing out of the sea and fighting you on land?

No, that would be a false equivalence - a fish will die if it leave the water, whilst a human won't die if he leaves the ground. Well, not as a direct result of leaving the ground anyway - there's a dragon up there after all. :smallbiggrin:


Dragons may be arrogant enough to not instantly use the most optimal strategy, but I cannot see them being that moronic in their arrogance. The dragon is going to know the characters cannot fly

How? Because they don't have wings?

Pretty sure there quite a few spells and items that enable flight. The dragon doesn't know either way - why not fly into the air and find out?


knows that flying will make it difficult to get at him. Hence "retreating" to the air.

That is still not the definition of retreating. By the same logic, it's more difficult to get to someone on horseback, or someone utilising the higher ground - are they retreating too?

[PraxisVetli]

Wrong[/B]. It's not a human vs a rabbit. A rabbit is clearly never going to be much of a threat. This more like a human vs a snake: might be dangerous, might not. Do you remember the difference between the poisonous one and the non? What's the best way to check let it bite you? No? Probably best to shoot it, good thing I loaded up with snake shot this morning.

Infact it KNOWS they are dangerous they just killed its cult leader and Destroyed their base. 1strafe round minimum see hwo they hold up what kind of damage they can do in return, if they survive and their offence appears to be no real threat sure dive bomb full attack, 1 round someone then switch to the next tasties target.

While the Emphasis and tone seem harsh, I would agree with the logic here.
Nail 'em with the Freezer Blitz, see if can't just obliterate them and be done. If there close to dead, allow myself the satisfaction of maually disembowling them. If hey take the Blittz and don't look too shaken up by it, either Blitzagain, or even just leave. This dragondidn't live this long by bull rushing everything that ticks it off. Why fight, and be endangered, when you know they have to sleep eventually. Just fly high enough up that you can follow them untill they camp. Then kill them in their sleep, take their stuff, and go find some kobolds for the new cult.

[ArcaneGlyph]

Let it eat you, cast resilient sphere and choke it to death. That fails.. rope trick.. memorize spells and then hang out of the rope trick and cast them into its internals. Just watch out for the breath weapon while hanging out of the rope trick. If you can cast any of the wall of spells.. make a solid wall across its wind pipe. Suffocates, job done.

[Rijan_Sai]

Let it eat you, cast resilient sphere and choke it to death. That fails.. rope trick.. memorize spells and then hang out of the rope trick and cast them into its internals. Just watch out for the breath weapon while hanging out of the rope trick. If you can cast any of the wall of spells.. make a solid wall across its wind pipe. Suffocates, job done.

While that is an AWESOME! idea, Swallow Whole is not one of the Dragon's SA's...also, I'm pretty sure the dragon would chew a few times for good measure...

There are several other monsters, though, that this would be a rather...amusing strategy against!

[ChaoticDitz]

While the Emphasis and tone seem harsh, I would agree with the logic here.
Nail 'em with the Freezer Blitz, see if can't just obliterate them and be done. If there close to dead, allow myself the satisfaction of maually disembowling them. If hey take the Blittz and don't look too shaken up by it, either Blitzagain, or even just leave. This dragondidn't live this long by bull rushing everything that ticks it off. Why fight, and be endangered, when you know they have to sleep eventually. Just fly high enough up that you can follow them untill they camp. Then kill them in their sleep, take their stuff, and go find some kobolds for the new cult.

I actually DISAGREE with your logic here. Sure, when it was like, a hatchling, it might have needed tactics to survive since Evil dragons have a bad tendency to abandon their babies. But as it stands, even as a White, depending on the level of NPCs in the world and if it might be low-wealth/magic, it might never have encountered anything except other dragons who could come even remotely close to challenging it. We would need more information on... Well, everything, if we were going to make an inference about what it had to do to survive as long as it has.

[Twilightwyrm]

No, that would be a false equivalence - a fish will die if it leave the water, whilst a human won't die if he leaves the ground. Well, not as a direct result of leaving the ground anyway - there's a dragon up there after all. :smallbiggrin:

It is most certainly not a false equivalence, as inability to breath was not the point. Replace "fish" with "dolphin" and the same applies. Calling a fish/dolphin out for not coming on land to fight you is irrational because they are not equip to move around on land, problems with breathing oxygen or no.


How? Because they don't have wings?

Pretty sure there quite a few spells and items that enable flight. The dragon doesn't know either way - why not fly into the air and find out?

Because only a very small percentage of the human population have access to magic (a fact any given dragon should know, considering how they like to lord it over others). So, to call back to your own aruement, this would be only slightly less silly then justifying calling a fish/aquatic creature a coward for not attacking you on land, because hey, fish can be awakened, and might have access to the requisite magic to both breath air and move about on land.


That is still not the definition of retreating. By the same logic, it's more difficult to get to someone on horseback, or someone utilizing the higher ground - are they retreating too?

If the dragon is already in the air, then you have a point. But forces can be, and indeed have been, refered to as "retreating to the high ground" or otherwise "retreating to (X advantageous position)". In the classic fighting the dragon scenario, the aggressors are attacking the dragon in its lair, and the presumption put forth seems to be that the dragon will immediately blow past them and take to the air outside. If the dragon is already in the air, that is another story, as their arrogance might well dictate that there is no reason to burden themselves with stooping from their elevated position to deal with nuisances not worth their time, and hence they would be content to blast them with their breath weapon from the air, because it is taking them out of their way as little as possible.

[Twilightwyrm]

Yes, the end.

The dragon is arrogant but surrendering your advantage before you know anything of your opponent is the height of stupidity, A trait that anything that lived to a few hundered years should have outgrown. Strafe 1-2 times see if they are nearly dead then land "maybe". If they are holding up strafe some more, or if you are really evil fly by attack grab, show the Hu-mans how stupid they are for not growing wings. The only time a dragon with the option to fly should land is to loot your body then eat it (doing it the other way is far to messy)

If they are already flying about, you have a point. If not, they are not surrendering any advantage, because they (assuming they start combat on the ground), did not have said advantage in the first place, any more than a man is surrendering the high ground by not running to the nearest hill when the fight between him and an opponent starts on a level field.
When determining the actions of an arrogant creature, it helps to take this perspective: what action will deal with the threat, while taking me out of my way the least? For a flying dragon, landing to engage in melee might be said to be taking them out of their way, so unless they personally relish melee combat, there is no need for them to land. For a dragon sitting inside its lair, taking wing, (let alone leaving some intruders alone in its lair with its hard-earned treasure while it gets outside!) takes it further out of its way. Make sense?

[Maginomicon]

If they are already flying about, you have a point. If not, they are not surrendering any advantage, because they (assuming they start combat on the ground), did not have said advantage in the first place)
...

Really?

It takes zero effort for a dragon to be borne aloft. Boom, instant advantage. The notion that it won't utilize its primary zero-effort zero-consequence advantage as soon as possible is ludicrous on its face.

And so far as leaving the party "alone with the treasure": as the video states, the party has to come out some time, and he already caused a cave-in making it unlikely the the treasure is accessible to the HU-MAN anyway.

[Dr. Cliché]

It is most certainly not a false equivalence, as inability to breath was not the point. Replace "fish" with "dolphin" and the same applies. Calling a fish/dolphin out for not coming on land to fight you is irrational because they are not equip to move around on land, problems with breathing oxygen or no.

It's still a bad example. For a start, a Dolphin probably isn't going to be the most threatening opponent - even in the water. Second, it is generally agreed that dolphins do not have access to magic, enchanted items or anything else that could make them more threatening than they otherwise appear.


Because only a very small percentage of the human population have access to magic (a fact any given dragon should know, considering how they like to lord it over others).

A very small population of the overall population, yes.

However, when you look at the percentages in terms of the people who go wandering around dragon caves, the chance of finding magic among them is exponentially higher.


If the dragon is already in the air, then you have a point.

What difference does it make? He's not using a complex ritual, he's just using the limbs he was born with. Are humans cowards for using their legs? :smalltongue:


But forces can be, and indeed have been, refered to as "retreating to the high ground" or otherwise "retreating to (X advantageous position)".

Only by you. Attacking - whether from the air or from the ground - is the exact opposite of retreating.


In the classic fighting the dragon scenario, the aggressors are attacking the dragon in its lair, and the presumption put forth seems to be that the dragon will immediately blow past them and take to the air outside.

Certainly you could argue that that one is a retreat - though I'd say Strategic Withdrawal - since the dragon hasn't been overwhelmed in any way, it's just choosing a more favourable battleground. However, unless I've missed something, that isn't the scenario being discussed in this thread. :smallconfused:


If the dragon is already in the air, that is another story, as their arrogance might well dictate that there is no reason to burden themselves with stooping from their elevated position to deal with nuisances not worth their time, and hence they would be content to blast them with their breath weapon from the air, because it is taking them out of their way as little as possible.

I see little difference, to be honest.

If you want to go the arrogance route, then why should the Dragon deign to remain on the ground and fight them honourably? Would you bother offering to fight an ant in honourable combat, before crushing it under your boot? :smallwink:

[ChaoticDitz]

All things considered, stomping the ant IS the honorable combat here. A dragon taking to the air and breath strafing isn't all that hard for it, right? (Unless, as previously mentioned, the Con recharge implies that the breath takes a lot out of the dragon, but that's open to interpretation) Exactly like it wouldn't be all that hard to climb into your car and use a machine gun on the ant if those things are on-hand anyway. Granted, it might be "more fair" to take off your boot, but that's sort of like the dragon willingly lowering its spell resistance; just because you don't need any new advantages doesn't mean you need to waste time and effort removing your current advantages.