Pathfinder, An Elder Scrolls patch

[Nabirius]

So, I my friend is going to run an Elder Scrolls campaign using the Pathfinder system. He asked me to help patch the magic system in order to be more in line with the Elder Scrolls lore, as well as to bring casters into (better) balance. I have some Ideas as to how this should work, but the exact numbers still need to be hammered down.

So the first issue is a magicka system. My DM wanted to do this, so here is the idea as I currently have it. Casters get Magicka points per level, at the same rate that Psychic Warriors do (this is pretty poor at low level). However, Magicka is assumed to completely regenerate out of combat, unless the combats are close together. This means that a caster only rarely has to hold back. Spells also cost the same as a power of equivalent level. Metamagic is similar to psionics as well. In combat people regain 2 magicka points a round (this is crazy at low levels).

All magic is learned. Casters start knowing a small handful of spells (of their choice). No spells are gained by level, instead they must all be found or purchased as spell books. Casting is semi-spontaneous, Casters can ready a set of spells any time they are given a chance to rest, and if in combat the readied spells are the ones that can be cast. Outside of combat they can cast whatever they please on their spell list. This set of spells should get larger with level, but I don't really know how I want that to happen.

Further alterations include: All 9th level spells are banned, no teleportation (short range, like dimension door is okay), no flight, no persist, only 1 summon spell active at a time per caster, all save or suck spells last rounds per (CL/2). Save or dies work as follows: on minions and other fodder they work as written. Against Players and Elite enemies, a failed save hits the person for 1/2 their maximum health (if the save has an 'if failed' effect it can be cast for that, no save) this can render someone to -1 and dying but does not kill them outright.

Anything I have bolded is something I either need help with or am not entirely sure is a good idea. Thank you for any help you give.

[tzar1990]

So, I my friend is going to run an Elder Scrolls campaign using the Pathfinder system. He asked me to help patch the magic system in order to be more in line with the Elder Scrolls lore, as well as to bring casters into (better) balance. I have some Ideas as to how this should work, but the exact numbers still need to be hammered down.

So the first issue is a magicka system. My DM wanted to do this, so here is the idea as I currently have it. Casters get Magicka points per level, at the same rate that Psychic Warriors do (this is pretty poor at low level). However, Magicka is assumed to completely regenerate out of combat, unless the combats are close together. This means that a caster only rarely has to hold back. Spells also cost the same as a power of equivalent level. Metamagic is similar to psionics as well. In combat people regain 2 magicka points a round (this is crazy at low levels).

All magic is learned. Casters start knowing a small handful of spells (of their choice). No spells are gained by level, instead they must all be found or purchased as spell books. Casting is semi-spontaneous, Casters can ready a set of spells any time they are given a chance to rest, and if in combat the readied spells are the ones that can be cast. Outside of combat they can cast whatever they please on their spell list. This set of spells should get larger with level, but I don't really know how I want that to happen.

Further alterations include: All 9th level spells are banned, no teleportation (short range, like dimension door is okay), no flight, no persist, only 1 summon spell active at a time per caster, all save or suck spells last rounds per (CL/2). Save or dies work as follows: on minions and other fodder they work as written. Against Players and Elite enemies, a failed save hits the person for 1/2 their maximum health (if the save has an 'if failed' effect it can be cast for that, no save) this can render someone to -1 and dying but does not kill them outright.

Anything I have bolded is something I either need help with or am not entirely sure is a good idea. Thank you for any help you give.

First of all, which Elder Scrolls game are you talking about? Morrowind had flight, teleportation, and the possibility of truly ludicrous magic (within the limitations of the engine), and lacked magicka regen entirely unless you stopped to rest.

Assuming you're talking about Skyrim, though, I'd actually use the Warlock as the base "magic user" class, not the wizard. Just give them extra invocations, and let the invocations cover the various Elder Scrolls magics. that's easier than vancian casting or a true-MP based system. This fits the skyrim-style "There are a fixed number of spells that cost X to do Y, and you don't get to customize them" thingy.

[Nabirius]

First of all, which Elder Scrolls game are you talking about? Morrowind had flight, teleportation, and the possibility of truly ludicrous magic (within the limitations of the engine), and lacked magicka regen entirely unless you stopped to rest.

Assuming you're talking about Skyrim, though, I'd actually use the Warlock as the base "magic user" class, not the wizard. Just give them extra invocations, and let the invocations cover the various Elder Scrolls magics. that's easier than vancian casting or a true-MP based system. This fits the skyrim-style "There are a fixed number of spells that cost X to do Y, and you don't get to customize them" thingy.

According to the DM leviatation and flight are magics associated with Vivec, and are impossible due to his disappearance. I removed teleportation for balance and plot reasons, since the travel and fleeing the Thalmor will be a big part of the drama, and teleportation tends to ruin that a bit.

I'll look at the warlock suggestion. It would be easier than this, and that is a plus. My ultimate goal is to:
a) balance casters a bit in pathfinder
b) make it easier for others to be engaged in the caster's turns
c) shorten the average turn length of a caster significantly

[Eldan]

Banning ninth level spells with help with balance a bit, sure, but only at levels 17th plus, banning some very high level optimization. Before that, these changes should make casters way stronger, able to throw around as much magic as they want, all day. Especially at levels, that's a huge help: first and second level, you restore MP faster than you can burn them. Literally. So you go from casting one carefully chosen spell per encounter, maximum, to throwing one every round.

[tzar1990]

According to the DM leviatation and flight are magics associated with Vivec, and are impossible due to his disappearance. I removed teleportation for balance and plot reasons, since the travel and fleeing the Thalmor will be a big part of the drama, and teleportation tends to ruin that a bit.

You know, normally I'd agree with you on teleportation, but Elder Scrolls teleports have some severe limitations: Of the 3 types in Morrowind, one could only take you to established temples of the Nine Divines, one could only take you to established ALMSIVI temples, and one you needed to mark beforehand, and you could only have one mark.

Combine those with the fact that ANYONE can use scrolls of Mark/Recall / ALMSIVI Intervention / Divine Intervention, and you wind up with an interesting game of cat and mouse, especially since any Thalmor who identifies what spell you cast can follow you if it's one of the Intervention spells.

I've never so much as heard of the idea that Levitate spells were tied to Vivec somehow - Oblivion just said they'd been made illegal (and from an OOC point of view, removing them made it easier to design dungeons, since you could have the exit hanging directly above the entrance, unreachable). Plus, a magic floor that makes you levitate up shows up in Dragonborn, you just can't learn the spell yourself.

Given that acquiring magical effects is easy in TES (enchanted items are more common, anyone can make potions fairly quickly, anyone can use any scroll, etc.) I think it's one of the few settings that isn't really imbalanced by having the local mages be able to levitate - it's slow, temporary, and mundanes can do it too.

[Perseus]

You might be able to get more responses if you place this in the Homebrew section.

[Drachasor]

If you're going with an Elder Scrolls thing, then why are you keeping spells as they exist at all? Lazy patches that just try to slap some rules on spells to "fix" things never work, in my experience. They usually end up either making a whole bunch of garbage spells and leaving some things that are still OP. Often times particular spells no longer make much sense anymore (for instance, Bestow Curse with your rules).

It probably makes more sense to just figure out what effects you want to have and then make a new system around that. ES spells are overall more limited in their nunmber of effects, so this shouldn't be too hard. Another alternative is to just use Psionics, and possibly make some tiny changes -- it does most of what you want anyhow.

That said, the above is complicated.

Another option is to go with the Warlock and ToB (or PF equivalent, I forgot what it is called). You'll need to modify the Warlock a bit though to bump it up to Tier 3 (more powers and perhaps an Arcana Point system to boost the effectiveness of its abilities -- AP would work like Magicka, essentially).

[Nabirius]

Banning ninth level spells with help with balance a bit, sure, but only at levels 17th plus, banning some very high level optimization. Before that, these changes should make casters way stronger, able to throw around as much magic as they want, all day. Especially at levels, that's a huge help: first and second level, you restore MP faster than you can burn them. Literally. So you go from casting one carefully chosen spell per encounter, maximum, to throwing one every round.

How much should I reduce the spell point pool to ensure that they can only throw out a few of their higher level spells per fight? I was considering making 'magicka regeneration' a feature gained at level 5 or 6 instead. We are starting at 5 so low level balance isn't much of a concern.

I was also hoping that reducing the number of spells they can choose between to a limited 'readied' spell pool would aliviate the buff of semi-spontaneous casting, does this not work?

[Psyren]

This set of spells should get larger with level, but I don't really know how I want that to happen.

Use a short progression, like that of the Erudite/Vitalist/Ardent. That should make the choice of "combat powers" meaningful. Since they can cast utility powers outside of combat without restriction, even an erudite progression won't be overly restrictive.



Further alterations include: All 9th level spells are banned, no teleportation (short range, like dimension door is okay), no flight, no persist, only 1 summon spell active at a time per caster, all save or suck spells last rounds per (CL/2). Save or dies work as follows: on minions and other fodder they work as written. Against Players and Elite enemies, a failed save hits the person for 1/2 their maximum health (if the save has an 'if failed' effect it can be cast for that, no save) this can render someone to -1 and dying but does not kill them outright.

You're in PF, why change the SoDs a second time? They were already altered.