Could a beguiler replace a wizard?

[Calaca94]

I'm playing a generalist wizard in a 3.5 party composed thus:
- A Barbarian ( THE BSF; who's gonna be a Runescarred Berserker)
- A Binder ( half a BSF; who has multiclassed as wizard just to continue as an Anima Mage)
- A Bard (sort of a Face, although only interested in bardic music; planned to advance as a Virtuoso)
- A Druid (in love with summon nature's ally and wild shape, planned to stay a Druid)
- A Favored Soul of Lathander (the healbot, planned to advance as a Sacred Exorcist for the DMM cheese)
- Me, the Wizard (a conjurer domain wizard planned to dip in mindbender and be mainly a IoT7V)

I'm usually the magic babysitter of the party, taking care of everything they can't handle (this includes almost everything we've experienced, since none of them has a decent mastery or knowledge of their classes' capabilities). Now i was thinking of replacing my wizard with a beguiler, but, although he would improve the party on the "roguish" side (the bard refuses to do that), i'm afraid he would lead to party's death in the blink of an eye (since until now we're alive only due to my wizard's powers)
If this can help, we're on the point of beginning the trilogy of "Cormyr - The Tearing of The Wave", "Shadowdale - The Scouring of The Land" and "Anauroch - The Empire of Shade". I don't know anything about these modules, so i can't imagine if a beguiler could be useful or not. Do you have advices or thought about it? I'd really appreciate any help you can provide.

[Snowbluff]

Totally. If not through Shadow Magic (they make great killer gnomes), but through cheese. Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster, Arcane Disciple, Dragon Compendium's Bloodline feats. Expanding the spell list is really easy. Even when you're not doing that, Beguiler covers a range of [Mind-Affecting] debuffs and some regular buff spells for when the going gets... undead shaped.

[Calaca94]

Do you have advices about most fitting dragonblood feats or arcane disciple's domains?

[Scow2]

I wouldn't consider dedicating a Beguiler build to expanding/cross-classing his arcane respirator instead of focusing on improving his Beguiler abilities to be "Cheese" any more than a Barbarian taking options to be equally good at killing traps as he is at killing enemies to be cheese.

[HammeredWharf]

Not an optimized wizard. However, beguiler is a solid class for support, debuffs, scouting and disarming traps. The problem is that you'd essentially be spending many of your feats to do what a wizard can do without any investment.

Why don't you want to be a wizard anymore? Have you considered the Unseen Seer PrC?

[nedz]

Do you have advices about most fitting dragonblood feats or arcane disciple's domains?

It depends upon what you want to do ?

You are going to be a themed caster, with Illusions and Enchantments mainly.
One trick is to dip a level of some other casting PrC before Beguiler 7 so that you can pick up Shadow Conjuration. Divine Oracle is good for this in that it gets you several Divinations and is a good fit for Arcane Disciple. A second level will get you Evasion later. For Arcane Disciple the trick is to pick a deity: All of your domains have to come from the same god's selection. Travel domain is popular, but you can get anti-undead spells (eg. Sun domain) or anti-outsider spells (Several domains).

[Drachasor]

If you are having to really use your Wizard to keep everyone alive, then I think a Beguiler is going to have a hard time doing that. Though it depends on HOW you keep them alive. The Wizard has more battle-enders and more escape spells for instance, so he's going to have an easier time providing both of those capabilities.

Care to give us a few examples of stuff you've had to do?

[Schizek]

I would say that it will be hard to replace Wizard. In low level 1-6 you will manage somehow without expanding your spell list. In 5-10 you will need to spend tons of feats to emulate wizard. Above 10 lvl you are just another bardish/rogue something.

You can try using prc such as Mage of the Arcane Order and you will be as close as possible to wizard but still not there yet.

Beguiler 6/ Mage of the Arcane Order 10/X

[Calaca94]

Why don't you want to be a wizard anymore? Have you considered the Unseen Seer PrC?
I don't know, maybe it's a matter of flavour or disorientation for the infinite possibilities, i'm just finding it less funny to play recently; the unseen seer has never attracted me from the "crunch" point of view, but probably i just don't get right his capacities, since many people talk positively about him.

[Calaca94]

Care to give us a few examples of stuff you've had to do?
for example deal with beholderkin swarms, provide tactics, control (with stuff like hypnotic pattern, grease, sleep, color spray and web) the battlefield and most of enemy troops, make the fighters decent (with buffs like heroics and the common ones as enlarge person), save us from opponents that would have kill us easily (a good example is the silent image of a great stone wall against the metalmaster (expedition to undermountain CR5 monster faced when we were lv.1) to allow us to flee ) or deal with opponent spellcasters (with stuff like arcane turmoil or ray of stupidity)

Above 10 lvl you are just another bardish/rogue something. You can try using prc such as Mage of the Arcane Order and you will be as close as possible to wizard but still not there yet.
Not even shadowcraft mage could fill the gap?

[KorbeltheReader]

If you want to switch to beguiler, I think your party will be fine. Bards, druids, and binders actually have a lot of utility and each has some battlefield control capability; they're probably just not using those things because you've got that base totally covered. If you switched, I bet that after an adjustment period they'd pick up the slack just fine. Not to mention beguilers are not exactly underpowered themselves.

If you're worried about it, you could ask the GM to put on kid gloves for an adventure or two after you switch so the party can have time to adjust to life without a living god in their party (I myself am currently running a conjurer/master specialist). :smallbiggrin:

As a side note, every time I've played with someone who rolled a beguiler, it ended up being one of that player's favorite classes. Apparently they're a lot of fun even by spellcaster standards.

[Calaca94]

It depends upon what you want to do ?
I think that if i'd change from a wizard to a beguiler i'd like to focus on the roguish side of the class, using spells mainly to improve it (but since it would be missing the main arcane spellcaster, i'd surely have to try to replace it somehow)


If you want to switch to beguiler, I think your party will be fine. Bards, druids, and binders actually have a lot of utility and each has some battlefield control capability; they're probably just not using those things because you've got that base totally covered. If you switched, I bet that after an adjustment period they'd pick up the slack just fine.
I know their classes should have the capability of substituting a god, but since they are all inexperienced and not particularly good at mechanics and tactics i fear that they will not, even with some "trial period"


As a side note, every time I've played with someone who rolled a beguiler, it ended up being one of that player's favorite classes. Apparently they're a lot of fun even by spellcaster standards.
I've always thought so, that's why i'd love to give it a try and i don't know when i will have another opportunity (since not-rhapsodic sessions are a rarity for me)

[nedz]

Then you might want to consider something like
Rogue 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 10
Rogue can be Ninja or Spellthief etc, and you might want to pick up a second level for various reasons depending upon the class (Evasion, Ghost Step, Steal Spell Effect, etc.). Your party does seem to be missing a Rogue too.

I wouldn't worry too much about having to carry the rest of your party, they will just have to pick up the slack; which will stretch them a little.

[Calaca94]

Is the unseen seer so good? What about the arcane trickster?

[Drachasor]

for example deal with beholderkin swarms, provide tactics, control (with stuff like hypnotic pattern, grease, sleep, color spray and web) the battlefield and most of enemy troops, make the fighters decent (with buffs like heroics and the common ones as enlarge person), save us from opponents that would have kill us easily (a good example is the silent image of a great stone wall against the metalmaster (expedition to undermountain CR5 monster faced when we were lv.1) to allow us to flee ) or deal with opponent spellcasters (with stuff like arcane turmoil or ray of stupidity)

...

Not even shadowcraft mage could fill the gap?

I don't think you really can, based on what you said. Sounds like you need close to the full spectrum of abilities to really keep things together. Enlarge Person is a pretty major buff that you'll lose. You'll lose a lot of other stuff, and some stuff you keep but it will be a bit weaker and of higher level.

Have you tried helping people out with their characters?

[Calaca94]

Have you tried helping people out with their characters?
Yup, but they don't seem to put much effort in it, beside taking random advised feats or spell from characters handbooks

[Chronos]

The simplest way for a beguiler to fake it as a wizard is through a bunch of scrolls. Remember, you have UMD as a class skill.

[HammeredWharf]

Is the unseen seer so good? What about the arcane trickster?

TBH, I don't see what good levels of unseen seer would do to a beguiler. It's a good wizard PRC mostly because it gets 6+int skill points and a decent skill list, but beguilers get more skill points, better skills and better class features. Note that unseen seer's Advanced Learning is divination-only.

Arcane Trickster would be nice, but its entry requirements sting.

[Urpriest]

for example deal with beholderkin swarms, provide tactics, control (with stuff like hypnotic pattern, grease, sleep, color spray and web) the battlefield and most of enemy troops, make the fighters decent (with buffs like heroics and the common ones as enlarge person), save us from opponents that would have kill us easily (a good example is the silent image of a great stone wall against the metalmaster (expedition to undermountain CR5 monster faced when we were lv.1) to allow us to flee ) or deal with opponent spellcasters (with stuff like arcane turmoil or ray of stupidity)


The first few are things your Druid can handle, while the Favored Soul should be a capable buffer. Finding subtle solutions to deadly encounters is definitely something you can handle with a Beguiler. Spellcaster countering is more tricky, but your party seems to have a number of people who can handle that.

I'd say it depends: if you feel like your party members are competent enough to play the roles they've set themselves, I don't think there's going to be a problem with you switching to Beguiler. If you really do have to carry them the whole way then Beguiler will probably be insufficient.

[Particle_Man]

Maybe warn the other players and the DM so that the other players can step up more and the DM can ease up a bit?

[Grayson01]

Have you tried Talking OOC with the other players to help them use there classes more effectively?

[Snowbluff]

Not even shadowcraft mage could fill the gap?

You're closer to a Sorcerer than a Wizard when you get Simulacrum. Versatile Spellcaster and Magical Training make you into a wizard.

[Arc_knight25]

Why not have your cake and eat it too. Go Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus

Int casting for both classes, progression of both spell lists(albet with a decrease in CL to both classes). Lots of skills from the Int and Beguiler levels.

But Wizard8/Beguiler2/UM10 will net you 9th lvl wizard spells and 5th lvl beguiler spells. (So long as my quick math is right)

You could also switch the Wizard and Beguiler levels around if you'd rather the Beguiler get level 9 spells.

[Calaca94]

I'd say it depends: if you feel like your party members are competent enough to play the roles they've set themselves, I don't think there's going to be a problem with you switching to Beguiler. If you really do have to carry them the whole way then Beguiler will probably be insufficient.

Maybe warn the other players and the DM so that the other players can step up more and the DM can ease up a bit?

Have you tried Talking OOC with the other players to help them use there classes more effectively?
Unfortunately i really don't think that at this moment the party could pick the slack, infact i'm having second thoughts and thinking that the current situation doesn't allow a decisive change of class (at least for me). They aren't stupid, just very inexperienced: most of them are at their first d&d experience (or inexperienced as if) and maybe it's better if, for now, they keep on being "babysitted" a little...


You're closer to a Sorcerer than a Wizard when you get Simulacrum. Versatile Spellcaster and Magical Training make you into a wizard.

Why not have your cake and eat it too. Go Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus

Int casting for both classes, progression of both spell lists(albet with a decrease in CL to both classes). Lots of skills from the Int and Beguiler levels.

But Wizard8/Beguiler2/UM10 will net you 9th lvl wizard spells and 5th lvl beguiler spells. (So long as my quick math is right)

You could also switch the Wizard and Beguiler levels around if you'd rather the Beguiler get level 9 spells.
Indeed, you all have given me good hints: i think i'll try to mix them and come out with a good deal between their needs and my desire; thank you a lot for your help, playground