Optimization

[kirerellim]

All right, this is a question mostly for DM's. When your players start optimizing their characters to painful degrees, do you ever just get the urge to TKO them with an equally optimized counter team? Cause I'm getting to that point.

Really, the question is, when players start optimizing, how do you keep the combat effective and interesting without killing all of them in the first round. Either I make the combat too easy, and they go through it like a hot knife through butter, or I kill all of them. Any advice for a happy medium?

[hymer]

The obvious solution is talking to your players. It may well be that they don't really want to switch to rocket tag, but perhaps they've lately felt that things have gotten so difficult they have to. Or maybe they just didn't think about it. Or maybe some players want one thing, while the rest want something else.
In the end, find out what's going on, and then tell them what's going on with you. Then have a conversation about where you want to go from here.

[Spore]

We do that in one of our groups. The DM did a "benchmark" dungeon - transporting us to the astral plane where you can't really die - and the sent waves of monsters against us.

We were 9th level, bit defeated CR 10, 12 and 14 on one day, then we killed a CR 17 daemon (with +5 Holy Weapons, and we died in the process but we killed it). Now the DM knows how much the group can take and can balance encounters properly.

We're now 10th level (with half WBL no less) and face about CR 14 encounters that take up the normal 25% of daily ressources.

[kirerellim]

Rocket tag? I assume that is the term for when fights end up being who sees who first wins?

Edit: Thats actually a really good thought. It would give me a way to judge their power level without actually having to worry about the quest to revive the dead party members every time.

[eggynack]

Why would an equally optimized counter-team necessarily kill all of them? Seems likely that it would take down about half of them, depending on circumstances.

[Spore]

Rocket tag? I assume that is the term for when fights end up being who sees who first wins?

Yes. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocketTagGameplay) Like playing tag with rockets. How shoots first, wins.

Also there are ways to circumvent this boring result. High HP, low DC high damage blasting, using the area to your advantage (ambushing the players with a decent group). One way or the other, "MORE" stuff is required. Either you prepare more optimized creatures and NPCs or you throw more dmg stuff at them.

[kirerellim]

Usually because once one of them is down, they tend to fall more quickly. They are big on the teamwork which is really what makes them such a pain to plan for. Even in bad situations, they cover each other well. But once one does go down, they fall to pieces.

And I'm aware I could just fudge the rolls a bit... but I hate doing that ><.

[HammeredWharf]

If they're a bunch of casters - which they probably are, considering melee isn't hard to counter - you could simply pit them against some decent anti-casters. Divine Defiance, some Dispel optimization and DMM: Chain Spell will make them cry.

If they're not optimized that well, use Spell Theft for hilarious results.

[Brookshw]

I know where you're coming from and suggest working on creatures defences instead of offense. I assume you're familiar with the parties abilities so this should be do-able. Don't be afraid to use challenging environments. Lastly trying to counter optimize a party is exceedingly time consuming, don't be afraid to just hand waive on stats/abilities if you need to.

[nedz]

A few ideas, I could probably add more.

Use several groups of opponents who don't all arrive at once.
Use opponents who are defensively optimised, this is hard but it can be done.
Use more terrain to add complexity to the tactics.
Use opponents who's allegiance is ambiguous, or whose presence is only suspected, that way winning initiative is irrelevant.
Avoid making every encounter a meeting engagement, again initiative becomes less relevant.

[kirerellim]

These are all awesome suggestions that I'm going to work into our next session this Sunday. I'll let you know how it works out then lol, but I have a feeling that they are going to be frustrated, but not dying. This is what I am looking for. :smallamused:

Edit: And for the record, the problem isn't /countering/ them exactly. Thats easy, they actually dont have much in the way of magic. But countering them without putting them at such a disadvantage that they get murdered out of hand is a bit harder.

[hymer]

I have a feeling that they are going to be frustrated, but not dying.

You're aiming to frustrate your players? I hope this is a one-time thing.

[kirerellim]

Hahaha, yes it is. I am not trying to make it frustrating, I'm trying to make it challenging but not murderous. Which is no doubt going to be frustrating to them for a while after curbstomping the last few games.

[Kaww]

The most important thing is that all of you are playing by the same rules. Have you been throwing impossibly tough monsters at them?

If yes - stop it. If not this will become a rocket tag game which leads to a TPK. Not because you want it, but because statistics happen. You could try an alternate approach. Have you ever heard of Tucker's kobolds? If not learn from that story.

My group of overpowered PCs went crazy in a dungeon similar to Tucker's. We've all had a blast (some players exploded). But it really was a good experience.

I hope I helped to an extent.

[Red Fel]

Phenomenal cosmic power isn't everything.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v57sUtvNa5o)
Teach them that even highly-optimized players still have something to fear (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/).

Basically, when the players start winning at the numbers game, you have two choices:

1. Turn the game into an arms race. DMs win the arms race, because DMs have infinite resources and the ability to send literal gods against the party.

2. Challenge your players in new ways. Tucker's Kobolds, linked above, show that players may have the mechanical numbers to overwhelm an enemy, but when faced with superior tactics, they may nonetheless get stomped. Learn how to fight tactically, and the OP gap means less. (Not nothing, just less.)

[kirerellim]

I've actually been trying to do that with the commoners handbook.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232822

Only problem is... they avoid population centers like the plague now. I could apply the same theory to monsters I guess, that would probably help though it seems a little cruel to leave them no where to run or hide at all lol.

Side note: How do you make a word into a link like in the post above?

[Krobar]

Let me just say, even deep into epic levels, my players fear my dragons.

[kirerellim]

I saw a youtube video on how to better play dragons recently. It made me think. Not very effective in this case, but in general, dragons are scary bastards lol.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you think optimizing means making opponents who can deal enough damage to kill them in one round, then you have a lot to learn about optimizing encounters.

How are the players optimizing? Are their characters able to kill the strongest opponents in a single hit? Are they using spells and abilities to prevent the opponents from taking even a single effective action in a combat lasting a dozen or more rounds? Is it a mix of both? Because there are different methods of handling each of these situations.

If they're dealing tons and tons of damage, use swarms of opponents with so few hit points that it doesn't matter how much damage the PCs are capable of in a single hit. Tucker's Kobolds are a great example of this. I've given advice on this type of adventure here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246708#3), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272735#11), and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288440#12).

If they're using a lot of crowd controls, you should use opponents who do the same, or who are able to avoid most of the standard strong crowd control effects. You can check my advice in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300111#7), particularly the spoilers at the bottom of the post, for examples of how to set up those types of encounters.

If the PCs are using specific overpowered tricks/spells (Shivering Touch), then feel free to use the same thing back on them. Let them know that anything their characters can do, their opponents can do better. If they're using Conjuration (Calling) spells to get powerful allies, you can use opponents who use tons of difficult summoned creatures that they get no XP or loot for defeating. Most games will come to a gentleman's agreement not to use such things once the players realize that it's in their best interest to do so.

[John Longarrow]

kirerellim
I would suggest you look up the real world tactic called "Defense in Depth". Also look for "Elastic Defence".

Rather than fighting a monster, let your player run into a military force. First line is 1hd monsters with crossbows. Strong points have low level casters to give cover fire. Middle defense is close melee bruisers who can push forward quickly one the PCs are in combat. Reserve is some pretty tough customers.

Let the players run into a lot of missile fire. They can fall back or attack. Odds are they will attack. Once they do, the casters further back start hitting them. Once they start hitting the casters, the bruisers attack. At any point though, the party can fall back. This should help avoid a TPK.

In the middle you can put your BBEG, snarling and full of hate, but probably too far away to fight.

[Maginomicon]

Yes. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocketTagGameplay) Like playing tag with rockets. How shoots first, wins.

Also there are ways to circumvent this boring result. High HP, low DC high damage blasting, using the area to your advantage (ambushing the players with a decent group). One way or the other, "MORE" stuff is required. Either you prepare more optimized creatures and NPCs or you throw more dmg stuff at them.
Here's how I handle the Rocket Tag problem. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306961) It's surprisingly effective. :smallbiggrin:

[kirerellim]

They're four characters, an archer, an totemist, a dervish all focused on damage output and a crusaider in a lockdown build. I was thinking about lesser swarms but even so the archer and dervish and totemist all have a pretty scent amount of attacks too. Only the dervish and archer can move and still use them all thankfully, but it's still a strong amount of attacks. The kobold story has given me a number of ideas to try though. Same with the mentioned elastic tactics. I'll apply both of these and see how it goes in the next session. Thanks again for all the advice !

[(Un)Inspired]

They're four characters, an archer, an totemist, a dervish all focused on damage output and a crusaider in a lockdown build. I was thinking about lesser swarms but even so the archer and dervish and totemist all have a pretty scent amount of attacks too. Only the dervish and archer can move and still use them all thankfully, but it's still a strong amount of attacks. The kobold story has given me a number of ideas to try though. Same with the mentioned elastic tactics. I'll apply both of these and see how it goes in the next session. Thanks again for all the advice !

Send a single conjurer against them. You don't even need him to be optimized to ruin that teams day. You don't even need to make him deadly. Have him cripple your party in combat and send waves of summoned monsters at them.

It sounds like solid fog and web would basically shut them all down. If they do get through his summoned monsters and battle field impediments then he can just abrupt jaunt or contingency d. door away.

Now you have a potentially recurring villain who can easily defeat the party without just TPKing them.

[HammeredWharf]

I recommend Black Tentacles and/or Sleet Storm. Sleet Storm in particular will put that party in a nasty and challenging situation without killing them outright. Throw a few Fireballs in there for good measure and they'll surely be forced to think carefully.