Hole in Geoff's reasoning?

[Roland Itiative]

Geoff claims he only betrayed Ian so Bozzok would let his son get away from the Thieves Guild... But isn't the reason Bozzok wanted Ian out of the way exactly the fact that he was against keeping people connected to the Guild against their will? Couldn't Geoff have supported Ian, rather than Bozzok, and reached the very same conclusion, without betraying a family member and supposedly good friend (and making his own life hell for many years)? It seems like there's more to the story than we know right now.

[zimmerwald1915]

Geoff claims he only betrayed Ian so Bozzok would let his son get away from the Thieves Guild... But isn't the reason Bozzok wanted Ian out of the way exactly the fact that he was against keeping people connected to the Guild against their will? Couldn't Geoff have supported Ian, rather than Bozzok, and reached the very same conclusion, without betraying a family member and supposedly good friend (and making his own life hell for many years)? It seems like there's more to the story than we know right now.
Source (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html).

Bozzok calls Ian preferring to drive non-Guild thieves out of Greysky City rather than kill them "one of the many reasons he needed to be removed from play." He then implies that actual positions of principle weren't all that relevant to him, and that what he really cared about was consolidating his power. Even if Ian stood wholeheartedly behind Bozzok's every position, Bozzok would still want him gone, because Bozzok can't abide any of his subordinates being more popular than him. If they're not at the moment more popular than him, he can't accept the risk of them becoming so. Such a person is an unacceptable threat to him.

[Kish]

Yes, Geoff acted stupidly.
No, I don't think there's going to turn out to be an explanation for that more complicated than "he is stupid."

[Sir_Leorik]

Geoff claims he only betrayed Ian so Bozzok would let his son get away from the Thieves Guild... But isn't the reason Bozzok wanted Ian out of the way exactly the fact that he was against keeping people connected to the Guild against their will? Couldn't Geoff have supported Ian, rather than Bozzok, and reached the very same conclusion, without betraying a family member and supposedly good friend (and making his own life hell for many years)? It seems like there's more to the story than we know right now.

There were many reasons Bozzok wanted to get rid of Ian Starshine. Ian was popular with the non-Evil members of the Guild, like Hank or Jenny. Ian fancied himself a bit of a Robin Hood-type, giving stingily from his take to the needy (after taking his generous cut, of course). And Ian was the sort of thief who prefers to leave his victims alive. Not only isn't it less immoral to not murder robbery victims, live merchants who are robbed often go on to earn more money. So it's good business for the Guild not to rely on thugs like Bozzok or Crystal for revenue. Evil thieves tend to be bad for business in the long term, whereas Good or Neutral thieves bring in more revenue in the long run, even if they don't in the short term.

[Shale]

I don't see how a potentially lengthy power struggle between Ian and Bozzok (one that we've never even heard Ian actually wanted) helps Jiminy not get a Death Attack to the face that day.

[Sir_Leorik]

Yes, Geoff acted stupidly.
No, I don't think there's going to turn out to be an explanation for that more complicated than "he is stupid."

Geoff and Ivy didn't act "stupidly". They acted out of fear. Bozzok was threatening to have their son murdered (and there may have been an implicit threat that Bozzok would sic Crystal on them as well). While there is a sense of a "If Woody Had Gone to the Police" vibe here, I can understand how Geoff and Ivy might have panicked and given in to Bozzok's blackmail. (And let's be honest, that's what Bozzok was doing to them.)

[Morty]

Yes, Geoff's reasoning wasn't perfect. What about it? People don't act rationally all the time. Especially if they're desperate to give their son a life outside a brutal criminal organization.

[David Argall]

Couldn't Geoff have supported Ian, rather than Bozzok, and reached the very same conclusion, without betraying a family member and supposedly good friend (and making his own life hell for many years)?
The "election" was over and Bozzok was the winner. Geoff had to go by Bozzok's rules [or seek a "recount", say by a knife in the back].
The hole in Geoff reasoning is that he seems to have left Jiminy at Bozzak's mercy, making his parents Bozzok's slaves. It should have been easy enough to get him some place safe, allowing them to tell Bozzok to suck eggs. [And no, Bozzok did/doesn't have any sort of worldwide reach. His power barely passes city limits in most cases. That seems to be where Haley was operating after she left the guild. Of course there is always the chance that Jiminy moves next door to one of Bozzok's business partners, who would be happy to do Bozzok a small favor. But there are a whole lot of neighbors, and Bozzok doesn't have many business partners, few of whom are interested in who Bozzok wants to kill.

[Mike Havran]

I think Geoff is a nice example of somebody who has okay Intellect but terrible Wisdom score.

[Sir_Leorik]

I think Geoff is a nice example of somebody who has okay Intellect but terrible Wisdom score.

He and Ivy didn't have that many choices. Crystal was a pretty formidable assassin. Except when facing Belkar. Or when she disrobed. :smalltongue:

Seriously, blackmail is never pleasant, and these blackmailers are both vicious criminals. I think that the best thing that they could have done under the circumstances was to at least pretend to go along with Bozzok's plan... but include a cipher in Ivy's letter to Ian that gave him a head's up.

[Jasdoif]

The hole in Geoff reasoning is that he seems to have left Jiminy at Bozzak's mercy, making his parents Bozzok's slaves. It should have been easy enough to get him some place safe, allowing them to tell Bozzok to suck eggs. [And no, Bozzok did/doesn't have any sort of worldwide reach. His power barely passes city limits in most cases. That seems to be where Haley was operating after she left the guild. Of course there is always the chance that Jiminy moves next door to one of Bozzok's business partners, who would be happy to do Bozzok a small favor. But there are a whole lot of neighbors, and Bozzok doesn't have many business partners, few of whom are interested in who Bozzok wants to kill.What kind of safe place did you have in mind, where Bozzok couldn't get someone to scry Jiminy to reveal his location or couldn't arrange to send/teleport an assassin to for the express purpose of killing Jiminy?

[The Pilgrim]

Geoff claims he only betrayed Ian so Bozzok would let his son get away from the Thieves Guild... But isn't the reason Bozzok wanted Ian out of the way exactly the fact that he was against keeping people connected to the Guild against their will? Couldn't Geoff have supported Ian, rather than Bozzok, and reached the very same conclusion, without betraying a family member and supposedly good friend (and making his own life hell for many years)? It seems like there's more to the story than we know right now.

Bozzok took over after the last Guildmaster died, not Ian.

Ian was popular, and so was a problem for Bozzok. But we have no indication that Ian wanted to wrest control of the Guild from Bozzok, neither that he had enough support, political skills, and killer instinct to do so.

So, Geoff had to made a decission between supporting the big guy already in power and get what he wanted... or bet for a coup no one was planning, with no guarantee of success, and risk being "removed" together with his family on the event of failure.

He made a poor, morally questionable, coward decision. But not an unreasonable one.

[King of Nowhere]

yes, geoff could not have sided with ian or his son would have died that day, before any chance of overthrowing bozzok.
as for sending his son afar and THEN betraying bozzok, there's always the risk of an assassin with teleport. it's a 9th level spell, so it should be within reasonable reach of someone with bozzok's poer and resources.
the smart thing to do would have been, imo, to tell ian exactly what happened, than persuade him to leave town to keep your son safe. that way ian was still out of town, but he wouldn't have to stay in prison. and he was resourceful enough that he could still try to orgaqnize the death of bozzok by proxy, without direct involvment and without endangering geoff's son.

EDIT: of course it's not a 9th level spell. i mean it takes a 9th level character to cast

[Sir_Leorik]

Another topic I'd like to point out is that Geoff's Alignment is most likely True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral (with the evidence leaning more towards the former than the latter). He and Ivy did not cooperate with Bozzok in framing Ian out of malice; they did so out of desperation. True Neutral characters generally seek to protect themselves and their family members, and in this case a son ranks higher in importance than a brother or brother-in-law. And remember, even though Geoff and Ivy were keeping tabs on Ian, they were also protecting him. Geoff fought by Ian's side in the Arena, and Ivy smuggled food to Ian and Geoff.

The real person with faulty resoning was Ian. He dashed off to the Western Continent without telling Haley where he was going. When Haley got Miron's note she freaked out. (See OtOoPCs for details of said freak out.) Ian's paranoia and refusal to trust anyone but family worked against him two-fold; he trusted Ivy and Geoff when he shouldn't have, and he refused to trust Haley enough to give her a heads up. (Of course, if not for his insanely high paranoia, Haley would never have joined the Order of the Stick, so maybe we shouldn't complain too much. :smalltongue:)

[Snails]

I agree with Sir Leorik. Geoff's reasoning may not have been the most admirable here, but Ian's reasoning was much worse, by far.

"I put myself in jail, and then I ended up in jail, all because of you, Geoff!" That wins sympathy, right?

[veti]

It's always possible to argue that it's irrational/bad policy to give in to a blackmailer. Yet people do it, all the time. And I think "protecting your child's life" ranks pretty high, possibly right at the top, on the motivational-strength scale.

My first instinct would have been to tell Iain everything and then persuade him to play along voluntarily. But I don't know Iain as well as Geoff does - maybe that wouldn't have worked, or at least not as reliably as what he did. So I'm not willing to judge Geoff, either morally or intellectually, for what he did.

[Bulldog Psion]

My first instinct would have been to tell Iain everything and then persuade him to play along voluntarily. But I don't know Iain as well as Geoff does - maybe that wouldn't have worked, or at least not as reliably as what he did. So I'm not willing to judge Geoff, either morally or intellectually, for what he did.

Considering how Ian mouthed off while unarmed, surrounded by goons, and recently freed, chewing out the extremely touchy tyrant who still has power of life and death over him rather than just staying quiet, even, after Roy got him released, I'd say Geoff would be ill-advised to tell Ian anything he didn't want shouted abrasively in Bozzok's face within 5 minutes.

[David Argall]

as for sending his son afar and THEN betraying bozzok, there's always the risk of an assassin with teleport. it's a 9th level spell, so it should be within reasonable reach of someone with bozzok's poer and resources.
We know he didn't with Haley, and she was much more within reach and a possible danger. The fact these spells were possible doesn't mean realistically possible. Bozzok doesn't have many casters, and does have a lot of things they can be used on [& casters are very expensive by D&D rules].
Another problem is that there probably a Bozzok in just about every city, and Kozzob will get upset if Bozzok send an assassin into his city without permission [and pay, which won't be cheap].
But our basic point is that "threatened men live long lives". Jimminy right then and there is a serious danger. Once Ian was out of town, and you move Jiminy out of quick reach, it's just not worth the bother. Geoff & Ian could have escaped years ago and Bozzok would have done pretty much nothing.
In fact there is a good chance Geoff could have defied him from the start. "Talk is cheap" is a solid theory. Prosecutors wanting excuses, and thugs wanting people to cave may push the idea there is a real risk, but very often it is pure bluff.

[goodpeople25]

We know he didn't with Haley, and she was much more within reach and a possible danger. The fact these spells were possible doesn't mean realistically possible. Bozzok doesn't have many casters, and does have a lot of things they can be used on [& casters are very expensive by D&D rules].
Another problem is that there probably a Bozzok in just about every city, and Kozzob will get upset if Bozzok send an assassin into his city without permission [and pay, which won't be cheap].
But our basic point is that "threatened men live long lives". Jimminy right then and there is a serious danger. Once Ian was out of town, and you move Jiminy out of quick reach, it's just not worth the bother. Geoff & Ian could have escaped years ago and Bozzok would have done pretty much nothing.
In fact there is a good chance Geoff could have defied him from the start. "Talk is cheap" is a solid theory. Prosecutors wanting excuses, and thugs wanting people to cave may push the idea there is a real risk, but very often it is pure bluff.
um bozzok is willing to pay 875 Gp per month to taurquin just to hold Ian i'm sure even if he doesn't have a high enough arcane caster with teleport I'm sure he would find the 1,125 gp worth it for a teleport scroll and why wouldn't he know where jimmy was he access to all the clerics in the city who if they can raise they can scry and jimmy doesn't seem that high level
so ya one spell caster with teleport or one rouge with use magic device or more and jimmys probably screwed.
though since i haven't read the prequel books im pretty sure killing Haley would use more resources plus crystal gets to mooch levels off of Haley
but with jimmy probably one teleport spell/scroll yes i believe bozzok could and probably would be easily be able to take out jimmy.

[Rodin]

Plus, there's the matter of rep. Ian being broken out of jail by a high level rogue who already demonstrated she can give as good as she gets with Bozzok? These things happen, you cut your losses and move on. A lower level mook ignoring your blackmail attempt and then you don't even follow up on the threat from the blackmail? That looks real bad.

There's also no indication Teleport is needed. Heck, magic isn't even needed. Jiminy is a shopkeeper, not someone who is well suited to out-running a Thieves' Guild tracker.

As for competing interests, I don't think it would be that big of a problem to simply make a deal with "Kozzob".

"Hey, one of my minions got uppity and I need to rub somebody out. My man will be in and out within a day. Here's 1000 GP for your trouble."

[DeliaP]

one rouge with use magic device or more and jimmys probably screwed.

Wait, you think that the the Sisterhood of Aton (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0711.html) are in league with Bozzok? Hmm... that adds a whole additional aspect of how they were keeping tabs on Ian! Maybe Aunt Ivy is a member!

(Sorry, sorry. I'll get my coat, shall I?)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Hat too, it's chilly out.

[Raphite1]

You can't expect too much from a guy who spells his own name wrong.

(Kidding, kidding.)

[David Argall]

Plus, there's the matter of rep. Ian being broken out of jail by a high level rogue who already demonstrated she can give as good as she gets with Bozzok? These things happen, you cut your losses and move on. A lower level mook ignoring your blackmail attempt and then you don't even follow up on the threat from the blackmail? That looks real bad.

There's also no indication Teleport is needed. Heck, magic isn't even needed. Jiminy is a shopkeeper, not someone who is well suited to out-running a Thieves' Guild tracker.

As for competing interests, I don't think it would be that big of a problem to simply make a deal with "Kozzob".

"Hey, one of my minions got uppity and I need to rub somebody out. My man will be in and out within a day. Here's 1000 GP for your trouble."
The basic point is "threatened men live long lives". A huge percentage of threats are simply not acted on. It's not so much a matter of Jiminy can't be tracked down. It's that he won't be. He's somebody threatened years ago who has dropped out of sight, and his parents are almost as out of sight [and Bozzok doesn't want anybody to know he threatened Jiminy in the first place]. Ian shows up in town again, and Bozzok either has the more immediate problem of dealing with Ian, or is not concerned with Ian, and thus not with the people who were supposed to be guarding him. Either way, he has bigger fish to fry and Jiminy doesn't need to worry.

[Kornaki]

The basic point is "threatened men live long lives". A huge percentage of threats are simply not acted on. It's not so much a matter of Jiminy can't be tracked down. It's that he won't be. He's somebody threatened years ago who has dropped out of sight, and his parents are almost as out of sight [and Bozzok doesn't want anybody to know he threatened Jiminy in the first place]. Ian shows up in town again, and Bozzok either has the more immediate problem of dealing with Ian, or is not concerned with Ian, and thus not with the people who were supposed to be guarding him. Either way, he has bigger fish to fry and Jiminy doesn't need to worry.

Yes, and once Bozzok dispatches Ian more directly don't you think he's going to be a bit peeved at the people who were supposed to keep him out of town? So Geoff and Ivy are placing their son's life in the hands of Ian winning a guild war he might not even want to fight against Bozzok, which might be the rational choice but is certainly not the emotional choice. If you think they should be making a cold blooded utilitarian decision then you haven't been paying enough attention to the themes of the comic.

[Snails]

Yes, and once Bozzok dispatches Ian more directly don't you think he's going to be a bit peeved at the people who were supposed to keep him out of town? So Geoff and Ivy are placing their son's life in the hands of Ian winning a guild war he might not even want to fight against Bozzok, which might be the rational choice but is certainly not the emotional choice. If you think they should be making a cold blooded utilitarian decision then you haven't been paying enough attention to the themes of the comic.

Well, it is always possible for emotions to get the better of a person. Geoff might fear as much, I suppose.

Bozzok is either practical or he is not. If he is not, the deal can easily backfire even if Geoff keeps his end perfectly. If Bozzok is practical, spending resources to settle scores with some persons who are probably on another continent is strongly in his disinterest, because anything so confusing is likely to be misinterpreted as Bozzok betraying a deal. A proper Guild boss is supposed to keep his eye on money flowing in Greysky. Everything else is dangerous self-indulgence -- a sign Bozzok needs to be replaced.

[halfeye]

Bozzok's blackmail. (And let's be honest, that's what Bozzok was doing to them.)
No it wasn't. Blackmail is a threat to make known to the police or the public something that the blackmailee would rather remained private. Bozzok was making threats of a much more direct sort than blackmail.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Which is called Menacing, if I remember my Legal Environments class right. Still a crime, just not one that's enforced all that often.

[orrion]

The basic point is "threatened men live long lives". A huge percentage of threats are simply not acted on. It's not so much a matter of Jiminy can't be tracked down. It's that he won't be. He's somebody threatened years ago who has dropped out of sight, and his parents are almost as out of sight [and Bozzok doesn't want anybody to know he threatened Jiminy in the first place]. Ian shows up in town again, and Bozzok either has the more immediate problem of dealing with Ian, or is not concerned with Ian, and thus not with the people who were supposed to be guarding him. Either way, he has bigger fish to fry and Jiminy doesn't need to worry.

How are you arriving at the conclusion that Bozzok doesn't want anyone to know? His standard policy is "kill anyone that wants to leave the Guild" and so everyone else would have expected him to threaten Jiminy. He agreed not to carry out the threat due to getting something else beneficial out of it, but there's no reason to hide threat itself.

Also, the only reason Jiminy has "dropped out of sight" is because of the arrangement. If it falls apart there's nothing to say he doesn't go after Jiminy at the first opportunity. Ian could show up, Bozzok could win, and then decide open season on Jiminy.

[David Argall]

How are you arriving at the conclusion that Bozzok doesn't want anyone to know? His standard policy is "kill anyone that wants to leave the Guild" and so everyone else would have expected him to threaten Jiminy. He agreed not to carry out the threat due to getting something else beneficial out of it, but there's no reason to hide threat itself.
Bozzok deemed Ian too popular to attack directly. Therefore he must hide that he is attacking Ian indirectly. If it gets out he threatened Jiminy in order to get Ian, he has all the problems he would have gotten from attacking Ian directly.



Also, the only reason Jiminy has "dropped out of sight" is because of the arrangement. If it falls apart there's nothing to say he doesn't go after Jiminy at the first opportunity. Ian could show up, Bozzok could win, and then decide open season on Jiminy.
If he wins [Bozzok may be the favorite, but the chance of losing is serious enough that he tries to avoid a fight.], and if he wants to bother. He really has little reason to. Jiminy is ancient history now, useless for the most part, and if useful, pretty much only as a threat to the parents [who may have died in any Ian struggle]. That would mean Bozzok wants a healthy Jiminy to continue to threaten, not a dead one.

[Keltest]

Bozzok deemed Ian too popular to attack directly. Therefore he must hide that he is attacking Ian indirectly. If it gets out he threatened Jiminy in order to get Ian, he has all the problems he would have gotten from attacking Ian directly.


If he wins [Bozzok may be the favorite, but the chance of losing is serious enough that he tries to avoid a fight.], and if he wants to bother. He really has little reason to. Jiminy is ancient history now, useless for the most part, and if useful, pretty much only as a threat to the parents [who may have died in any Ian struggle]. That would mean Bozzok wants a healthy Jiminy to continue to threaten, not a dead one.

He didn't threaten Jiminy to get to Ian though. As pointed out above, attempting to kill anyone who leaves the guild is standard practice. The fact that he COULD get to Ian through Jiminy though was a bonus.

[David Argall]

He didn't threaten Jiminy to get to Ian though. As pointed out above, attempting to kill anyone who leaves the guild is standard practice. The fact that he COULD get to Ian through Jiminy though was a bonus.
The difference between threatening Jiminy in order to get Ian and offering not to carry out a threat to Jiminy in order to get Ian is pretty much a quibble. Either way, Geoff was convinced he needed Ian in jail to avoid having a dead kid.
And either way, the threat was a lot more serious short range than long. Jiminy in town at the time was in danger. Jiminy out of town a year later was pretty safe.

[orrion]

Bozzok deemed Ian too popular to attack directly. Therefore he must hide that he is attacking Ian indirectly. If it gets out he threatened Jiminy in order to get Ian, he has all the problems he would have gotten from attacking Ian directly.

That assumes that everyone in the guild would react the same to having Ian killed versus him just out of the way.

Also, something should have happened in Jiminy's case. It's well known that thieves can't just decide to leave the Guild, so there must have been some explanation for Jiminy's leaving that was given out generally.



If he wins [Bozzok may be the favorite, but the chance of losing is serious enough that he tries to avoid a fight.], and if he wants to bother. He really has little reason to. Jiminy is ancient history now, useless for the most part, and if useful, pretty much only as a threat to the parents [who may have died in any Ian struggle]. That would mean Bozzok wants a healthy Jiminy to continue to threaten, not a dead one.

Or he tries to avoid the fight because win or lose the Guild would be decimated.

The parents have little reason to participate in such a fight precisely because Bozzok could target Jiminy if he wins. They haven't exactly made the smartest decisions concerning these events, so they'll probably continue to make stupid decisions as far as their son is concerned.



And either way, the threat was a lot more serious short range than long. Jiminy in town at the time was in danger. Jiminy out of town a year later was pretty safe.

Pretty safe based on what? The odds that Bozzok has no outside agents except those necessary to pay some guy in another country on another continent a monthly amount of gold?

[skim172]

Well, it's a sort of "Either I help Ian (and put my son's life at risk) or I help Bozzok (and guarantee my son's life)" kinda deal.

If Geoff helps Ian and fails, Jiminy will definitely die. If Geoff helps Ian and succeeds, Jiminy still might be killed before their victory (or even afterwards as revenge).

On the other hand, if Geoff helps Bozzok, then win or lose, Jiminy is safe. And people will usually try to protect their children.

[Kish]

On the other hand, if Geoff helps Bozzok, then win or lose, Jiminy is safe.
...as long as Bozzok keeps his word.

[Sir_Leorik]

No it wasn't. Blackmail is a threat to make known to the police or the public something that the blackmailee would rather remained private. Bozzok was making threats of a much more direct sort than blackmail.


Which is called Menacing, if I remember my Legal Environments class right. Still a crime, just not one that's enforced all that often.

Regardless if whether Bozzok is committing blackmail, extortion or menacing, he's still committing a crime that involves threatening the life of another person, in order to coerce a third party into being an accessory to a kidnapping. That's the basic fact pattern. Unfortunately, based on what little we've seen of the Greysky City legal system, I don't think anyone would ever dream of bringing charges against Bozzok.

[Kish]

Unfortunately, based on what little we've seen of the Greysky City legal system, I don't think anyone would ever dream of bringing charges against Bozzok.
No, that would involve a Shocking Burst Bow, not an Icy Burst one.

[David Argall]

That assumes that everyone in the guild would react the same to having Ian killed versus him just out of the way.
They pretty much would. In both cases, being far away, and "innocent" are useful things Bozzok would want.



Also, something should have happened in Jiminy's case. It's well known that thieves can't just decide to leave the Guild, so there must have been some explanation for Jiminy's leaving that was given out generally.
Actually, we may have more evidence they can than that they can't. Bozzok and Hank both say they can't, but both are liars with motives to lie. On the other side, Ian just left without a word, and Haley had Bozzok's "blessing" [and likely Crystal's dagger in her back if she had stuck around, but she didn't have to run far.] So it could have been very easy to just leave town.



Or he tries to avoid the fight because win or lose the Guild would be decimated.
Which would leave Bozzok with a lot of work, and no time to get to a loose end like Jiminy. A civil war might endanger the parents, who might get involved, but the far-away Jiminy stays alive.



The parents have little reason to participate in such a fight precisely because Bozzok could target Jiminy if he wins. They haven't exactly made the smartest decisions concerning these events, so they'll probably continue to make stupid decisions as far as their son is concerned.
But that is the point. Their decision was dubious to start with, and became more so with each passing day. Years ago, they should have moved Jiminy to safety, or just decided his threat had become hollow. [Note that Bozzok is not concerned about Ian being on the loose now. He probably has just been paying the monthly fee out of habit. Right now Jiminy is in no danger no matter what the parents do.]



Pretty safe based on what? The odds that Bozzok has no outside agents except those necessary to pay some guy in another country on another continent a monthly amount of gold?
Finding a guy to take a little gold from A to B is an almost trivial task. Finding a guy to make a hit in a foreign land is more difficult by orders of magnitude. Again, given that Haley was able to live near town, Bozzok's ability to do something outside the city limits, much less on another continent, is questionable.

[orrion]

They pretty much would. In both cases, being far away, and "innocent" are useful things Bozzok would want.

Apparently they wouldn't since he's far away now.



Actually, we may have more evidence they can than that they can't. Bozzok and Hank both say they can't, but both are liars with motives to lie. On the other side, Ian just left without a word, and Haley had Bozzok's "blessing" [and likely Crystal's dagger in her back if she had stuck around, but she didn't have to run far.] So it could have been very easy to just leave town.

It doesn't really matter whether Bozzok and Hank have reasons to lie. They couldn't cover up that lie for very long.



Which would leave Bozzok with a lot of work, and no time to get to a loose end like Jiminy. A civil war might endanger the parents, who might get involved, but the far-away Jiminy stays alive.

There's no expiration date on getting to Jiminy, and again the parents' involvement would fuel Bozzok's desire to go after him.



But that is the point. Their decision was dubious to start with, and became more so with each passing day. Years ago, they should have moved Jiminy to safety, or just decided his threat had become hollow. [Note that Bozzok is not concerned about Ian being on the loose now. He probably has just been paying the monthly fee out of habit. Right now Jiminy is in no danger no matter what the parents do.]

What evidence do you have that Jiminy isn't "moved to safety" where he is now? What constitutes "moved to safety" in a setting where you can magically detect someone's whereabouts, anyway?



Finding a guy to take a little gold from A to B is an almost trivial task. Finding a guy to make a hit in a foreign land is more difficult by orders of magnitude. Again, given that Haley was able to live near town, Bozzok's ability to do something outside the city limits, much less on another continent, is questionable.

Except that he has been doing things on another continent.

Haley was able to live near town - what's "near," by the way? - because Bozzok decided not to go after her. Your argument would be supported if Bozzok had decided to go after her and then failed.

He had a really pragmatic reason for not doing that, anyway. The one thing that would probably have made Ian rush back is the death of his daughter.

[Kish]

What evidence do you have that Jiminy isn't "moved to safety" where he is now? What constitutes "moved to safety" in a setting where you can magically detect someone's whereabouts, anyway?
"Magically warded against detection" would seem to be the logical answer.

[halfeye]

Finding a guy to make a hit in a foreign land is more difficult by orders of magnitude.
Offering a reward to a local in another town to kill someone in that town is much less effort. He's already spending 825 *gold* per month, uping that to a one off 1,000 gold for a hit is 175 gold, i.e. peanuts. Presumably if he doesn't care about Ian any more he's got a net gain of 825 gold per month, which sounds like a lot to me.

[Sir_Leorik]

No, that would involve a Shocking Burst Bow, not an Icy Burst one.

Maybe that's what Eagle Eye Pete used an Axiomatic bow for: to get some Order in the court. :smalltongue:

[orrion]

"Magically warded against detection" would seem to be the logical answer.

If that's happened then he's already safe. As safe as he can be without Geoff doing what he's doing, anyway.

If it hasn't then they either don't have access to it, know Bozzok can trump whatever they do have access to, or they're being idiots (entirely possible).

[veti]

...as long as Bozzok keeps his word.

If Bozzok doesn't keep his word, and word gets out (as it most certainly would), then his credibility and leverage for future blackmail efforts is critically undermined.

So he'd have made his own position worse, and he'd have to expend effort and/or resources to do it. Doesn't sound like a probable course of action to me.

[Snails]

How are you arriving at the conclusion that Bozzok doesn't want anyone to know? His standard policy is "kill anyone that wants to leave the Guild" and so everyone else would have expected him to threaten Jiminy. He agreed not to carry out the threat due to getting something else beneficial out of it, but there's no reason to hide threat itself.

There is a reason. Making a "public" threat that is not apparently fulfilled is an "interesting" result. It raises a lot of questions. Like Ian should have noticed that Jiminy was baldly threatened, yet he did not flee the continent and still breathes.

By not threatening Jiminy, Bozzok can just laugh it off: "He is so stupid I am glad he does not work for me. We are all better off. Believe me."

[Keltest]

There is a reason. Making a "public" threat that is not apparently fulfilled is an "interesting" result. It raises a lot of questions. Like Ian should have noticed that Jiminy was baldly threatened, yet he did not flee the continent and still breathes.

By not threatening Jiminy, Bozzok can just laugh it off: "He is so stupid I am glad he does not work for me. We are all better off. Believe me."
Or he could just do what he did with Pete and say he arraigned for
Jiminy to be put on "indefinite hold" so that hes still part of the guild even if hes not operating as an active resource.

And even without a public threat, the people who are intelligent enough to have a chance at getting out would look at Jiminy and see its possible. And those who want to become leader would see that Bozzok isn't enforcing his rule, especially on someone as insignificant as Jiminy.