[3.5]Is arcane fire (archmage su) so bad?

[fanaval]

Hi, I'm new.
I am seeking advice.

I play a core only game and I am evaluating the opportunity to take arcane fire from archmage prc. It is supernatural and is a bolt of raw magical energy (no elements) that bypass spell resistance and automatically hit at long distance. It deals 5d6 + 1d6 x level of a slot expended.

I think that for a specialist with so many slot it could be a good bargain to have arcanne fire even if it cost a 9th level permanent spell slot.

If you have a diviner with banned evocation, arcane fire can provide you a support battleship cannon with a lot of ammo to bombard enemies from great distance using, in this particular case, the extra divination slots.

What do you think? Thanks.

Fanaval

[Ramza00]

It requires losing a 9th level slot and what every spell you spontaneously convert.
Its single target.
Its low damage.
Usually you can do something that is far more useful with a 5th level slot than doing 10d6 damage, or a 9th level slot for 14d6 damage.

[Vizzerdrix]

If you want something like it, I recommend Reserve Feats from Comp. Mage.

You'll get a bit of blasting oomph, but won't have to loose spells and slots to do it.

[Juntao112]

Hi, I'm new.
I am seeking advice.

I play a core only game and I am evaluating the opportunity to take arcane fire from archmage prc. It is supernatural and is a bolt of raw magical energy (no elements) that bypass spell resistance and automatically hit at long distance. It deals 5d6 + 1d6 x level of a slot expended.

I think that for a specialist with so many slot it could be a good bargain to have arcanne fire even if it cost a 9th level permanent spell slot.

If you have a diviner with banned evocation, arcane fire can provide you a support battleship cannon with a lot of ammo to bombard enemies from great distance using, in this particular case, the extra divination slots.

What do you think? Thanks.

Fanaval
That 9th level spell slot you sacrificed could have been used on Gate, Time Stop, or Shapechange.

[Kioras]

It is subpar damage, and means giving up a 9th level spell, which could be a time stop, wish or gate, or other spells.

If you didn't give up a 9th level slot, it might be more tempting. Since you are the wizard you are already top tier, depending on spell choices.

Do you often run out of blasting spells? If you do then it might be considered worth while, but the damage is subpar, since scorching ray at cl 11 is 12d6, for a second level slot. the 3rd level spells top out at 10d6 generally, and 5th level spells generally hit for 15d6.

This is using blasting which is generally one of the things that is sub optimal for wizards.

[eggynack]

There is effectively no quantity of blasting that has even the most minute impact on your capabilities when you have 9th level spells. Like, maybe if you had the capacity to consume the entire planet in hellfire that destroys anyone and anything on its surface, as well as half of the mole people who live under the crust for good measure, that would be vaguely relevant. Not much though. And this is not that. This is some other thing, that does not have the capacity to seriously reshape reality with a thought, so it is not good. That's all there is to it, really.

[ericgrau]

It is SR no and nothing is resistant so with core only and no access to orbs it could be a nice backup. It is a lousy primary option true but as long as you rely mainly on your prepared spells and use it only as a backup when you have the wrong spells prepared, then it could work fine. Likewise I wouldn't make it your first choice, I'd probably pick other special abilities first. Mastery of shaping and mastery of elements are nice in core, to exclude allies in area spells and get around resistances. Since you banned evocation there is still spell power and shaping with the right spells.

I mean consider the normal core king of reliability, an empowered maximized magic missile in a 7th level slot averaging 34 damage. At 3 levels of archmage you match it without taking any feats, and by 5th level you exceed it. Ya that is also lousy damage as your primary attack, but usually things that are hard to hit or have a lot of resistances have low hp too.

I certainly wouldn't spam it as a substitute for evocation. It does 1/3 the damage. Again, just a backup when your prepared spells are totally wrong or foes have ways around them.

Losing your first 9th level spell is a bad idea, but your 3rd+ one not as much. Worst case scenario you'll be rich enough to buy a staff with 9s on it.

So all in all in core I'd give it a resounding "ok".

[Drachasor]

If you need something to bypass SR and do damage, you use summons. Summons that you can use while invisible, flying, and with mindblank (people will find it almost impossible to find you).

If you just need to do damage from a distance, you have a lot of options in Core even ignoring Evocation.

[Twilightwyrm]

Because, in a core only game, Disintegrate can accomplish the same thing, without being evocation, with untyped damage, out to a decent range. True, there is a possibility they will save, but if you suspect that your enemy may make said save, there are plenty of other effects that do not allow said save, without having to sacrifice a 9th level spell slot.

[Icewraith]

It's a trap!

However, if you bothered to qualify for archmage and want to blast, mastery of shaping and mastery of elements are superb.

[facelessminion]

Short answer: Yes, yes it is so bad.

Longer answer: There are far nicer ways to burn a 9th level spell.

[winter92]

As a related side question, why does High Arcana SLA get no love? Pay a 5th level slot and an Nth level slot for a given Nth spell 2/day. I know it limits versatility a bit, but there are surely high level spells worth preparing every day - isn't converting a 5th level slot into a second time stop excellent?

[Rubik]

As a related side question, why does High Arcana SLA get no love? Pay a 5th level slot and an Nth level slot for a given Nth spell 2/day. I know it limits versatility a bit, but there are surely high level spells worth preparing every day - isn't converting a 5th level slot into a second time stop excellent?It's great for high-end spells (especially 8ths and 9ths) with high versatility that can be used to emulate various other spells, such as Shades, Shapechange, and Polymorph Any Object. It's basically exchanging one 5th level spell slot for an extra 9th level spell slot that gives you many, many, many lower level spells known.

[Zaq]

I understand that Limited Wish is an inefficient but still useful choice for the SLA option, at least for a certain style of preparedness. Yes, yes, XP costs aren't waived, and so you won't use it every day (hence, inefficient). But, when your back is against the wall, having a wildcard spell with no components other than XP might be just what you need.

Not necessarily a first choice, but I've heard of it being pretty damned effective when you absolutely need it most.

But yeah, for general use, the SLA option is still pretty cool. Kinda like a Pearl of Power in some ways.

[Ramza00]

As a related side question, why does High Arcana SLA get no love? Pay a 5th level slot and an Nth level slot for a given Nth spell 2/day. I know it limits versatility a bit, but there are surely high level spells worth preparing every day - isn't converting a 5th level slot into a second time stop excellent?

If your wisdom is high enough, and you take the feat arcane disciple (luck domain), using the high arcana to get miracle as a spell like ability twice a day is awesome. (you can also just cast miracle 1/day with a spell slot for a total of 3 times per day.)


A miracle can do any of the following things.

Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.
If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost.

--------------------------------

I know it is not open to the OP since he is doing core only, and arcane disciple is in complete divine but for example if you took the miracle sla, that means 2 times a day you can cast fire strike. At caster level 17 that means you do 17d6 fire damage to all targets (that you select) in a total area equal to 34 10 foot cubes. You get to do this twice a day instead of a just single time with arcane fire. Furthermore since you get to choose the spell spontaneously you can pick something that is not damage if not damage is more optimal than damage.

[ericgrau]

Besides extra 9s you can also use the high arcana SLA on a 5th or 6th level spell, then grab the quicken SLA feat to quicken it without losing multiple 9th level spell slots. Or to quicken a 6th level spell which you normally cannot quicken. I'd pick something you can do every round like wall of force, telekinesis, acid fog or chain lightning.

Disintegrate is save partial + SR yes. Summons usually miss and easily die so neither is a substitute to arcane fire for reliable backup damage. What you don't want to do is make arcane fire your primary tactic because there are many other ways to do triple the damage provided that enemies aren't defended against it. Hence why I say it's ho-hum but not worthless.

[TuggyNE]

Shapechange is one of the very best options for SLA: you're likely to use it multiple times in a day, and component-less "now I'm a dragon" is an amazing get out of jail/grapple free card.

Plus, you no longer need to wear that silly circlet in case your skin reacts badly to jade. :smalltongue: