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Scowling Dragon
2014-01-30, 12:44 PM
Well im looking for the following (Or as close as possible):

A system that uses multiple dice for successes (AKA stuff like the WOD system), and is primarily made for fantasy.

Preferably it has a wide and fluffy spell system (Balance is very nice but not critical).

I hope to use the system to play pathfinder adventure paths just using a different rule system.

Any examples of the above? A Fantasy system that uses multiple dice for successes? And a good magic system (As in spells do more then just damage).

EDIT:

Im also looking for non-rules lite games. Not exactly heavy, but just Im not a fan of lite rules.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-01-30, 12:50 PM
HMMMMMMMMMMMM.

I really want to suggest Burning Wheel. Because it has your first two criteria very strongly. (the first edition of the game actually stemmed from Shadowrun!) But not your last criterion: it's a character-driven, drama-focused game. Not very good for traditional-style RPG adventure modules. I can go into detail, though, if you're interested.

Scowling Dragon
2014-01-30, 01:06 PM
OOOOH. I LOVED shadow run. I was pretty much looking for a fantasy version of that.

(Wider magic mechanics though and a better summoning system).

Go into detail. That would help.

Actana
2014-01-30, 01:12 PM
There's always Fate, which has the Legends of Anglerre supplement (which I believe is made for a Fate variant, Starblazer Adventures or something. Never looked into it.) which is a fantasy writeup for Fate rules. I've yet to read through the LoA rulebook completely, but Fate is something I do like to recommend to people.

Spellcasting is divided into many different areas, with two main categories in each: trappings and stunts. Trappings are minor uses of the type of casting, and stunts are larger. For example in the Telekinesis school, a trapping would be rough telekinesis, but a stunt would be levitation and flying. It also allows for creation of things on your own.

Fate is a very narrative system, so it might not be suited for PF adventure paths as they are, but LoA does have a more robust combat system than Fate Core on its own, but I'd still recommend using Fate Core as a base for things like character creation and general rules, as its a newer, more refined system. LoA and Fate are both compatible with each other, so adapting one to the other shouldn't be a problem.

Scowling Dragon
2014-01-30, 01:14 PM
Im not a fan of narrative or cinematic systems.

I get saying "It lasts for a scene" for simplicity sake (As long as there is a general example of how long a scene will last on average)

But rolling narrative wise (Stunts or trapping) im not a fan.

I prefer immersive experiences.

Darkpaladin109
2014-01-30, 01:18 PM
Warrior, rogue and mage fits most of the criteria. It's also free over the internet and has somewhat simpler rules than other RPG's. I'm not quite sure about how balanced spells are, but it's simple enough to create your own spells, if that helps. Being that it focuses on the mechanics, it would propably be suitable, as long as you don't mind making various things, mostly races and things like that on your own. It doesn't have classes, which could be problematic, but should propably work for the most part, I imagine.

Airk
2014-01-30, 01:54 PM
I was going to suggest Burning Wheel as well; It's crunchy, it uses dice pools, and the magic system is...broad, certainly, though I think you'd want the Magic Burner supplement for that.

I don't know that it would be BAD for traditional adventure stuff - I think you could totally do it - but it won't produce the same sort of experience as running that traditional adventure in a themeless murderhobo game like Pathfinder.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-01-30, 01:58 PM
OOOOH. I LOVED shadow run. I was pretty much looking for a fantasy version of that.

(Wider magic mechanics though and a better summoning system).

Go into detail. That would help.
So, first, the preview packet. You can get it here (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/98542/Burning-Wheel-Gold-Hub-and-Spokes) or here (http://www.burningwheel.com/store/index.php/front-page/burning-wheel-gold-hub-and-spokes.html). I mention it because it's a literal overview of the essential game. The only things missing are the more involved subsystems and the in-depth character creation.

Also, the core rules structure was a hack of Shadowrun, but it's definitely its own game, so keep that in mind. The fantasy is literally Tolkienesque, leveraged in a way that brings out that feeling. I haven't seen a lot of other games do that well.

The Pitch: Burning Wheel is about finding the story in a character's walk through life. From humble beginnings, your character is tested repeatedly to hone and furnish their values and ethics. The game encourages and rewards players for challenging their characters, both in ability and in perspective.

The Core: Luke Crane frequently goes on about how the hub of the game is Beliefs, Instincts, and Traits--non-quantifiable character elements that set your character apart from all the others in the most distinctive way. I'll explain why after some examples.


Belief: Gerald is just waiting to betray us all; I have to make Min see this!
Instinct: When someone challenges one of my actions, I take it personally. Very personally.
Trait: Noblesse Oblige


You get rewarded for each of your Beliefs that pushed the action forward (e.g., if you chose to take decisive action to get in Gerald's way), for each of your Beliefs that you accomplished (e.g., if you got Min to see your side), for playing out a hard choice that countermands your Beliefs, Instincts, and/or Traits (e.g., someone challenges one of your decisions, but you know that lashing back would be disastrous, so you bite your tongue painfully), and for various in-session achievements (being the One Player whom nobody could've done without, or being the player who achieved victory in the critical moment, etc.)

It's very much like a more structured form of Shadowrun's karma, actually. (At least in some editions. I seem to recall that "karma" changed in identity?) You get to spend it on rolls, and when you spend enough of it on skills, that skill levels up--you get successes on a 3+ instead of on a 4+. (It's more involved than my simplification, but that's the core idea.)

What does this boil down to? It's a bit of a cycle. You come up with Beliefs; the GM gives you obstacles that challenge Beliefs; struggling in this way earns you artha (the rewards for playing to or against Beliefs); you cycle through new Beliefs; you face new, bigger obstacles; artha gets spent on rolls to overcome challenges and level your character up; repeat. The whole game comes down to "what is worthwhile to your character?" and "how does your character grow and learn?"

It's a very campaign-oriented game. 20-30 sessions sees character change, growth, and an awesome scope evolving.

The Nitty-Gritty: It's a very meaty game. The core mechanic is dead-simple, but you get a number of subsystems that make things more involved (and, in my opinion, interesting). There's a very large list of skills (from Knives to Assassin-wise to Ditch-Digging!), although your character only knows 10-20 of them, and will only ever use that many. They're more like micro-character traits than anything. Combat is brutal and to be avoided if you can--only fight if you're willing to stake a lot on it! (That being said, sleeping in and being in recovery has made for some amazing scenes.) It's also a game that rewards patience. It's not flashy; it's a slow burn (pun sorta intended) of character development. At the same time, because a lot can potentially ride on a roll, it's a game of sudden reversals and drastic events.

Feels Like: Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, The Witcher. It plays personal fantasy, with human drives and ambitions played out across an epic landscape, although you have to build to that point.

EDIT: Totally agreed on the Magic Burner, if a bigger magic system is what you want. I'd say one thing at a time, though. The Sorcery system in the core book has a large number of spells, from camouflage to leaping to a fan of flames to the Magic Whistle (a punnalicious spell, get it?).

Rhynn
2014-01-30, 02:26 PM
The One Ring: Adventures Over the Edge of the Wild
Multiple dice (1D12 + nD6, where n is your skill ranks); no spell system (PCs don't get magic); very setting-tied.

The Riddle of Steel
Dice pools; very interesting spell system.

Legend of Five Rings and Seventh Sea
Dice pools; cool magic systems; both very setting-tied, though.

The Dark Eye
Multiple dice (not pools, but you roll 3d20 for most non-combat tasks); magic system; very D&D-friendly in concept; setting is way better than rules.

Mark Hall
2014-01-30, 02:33 PM
A bit old, but you might look at Earthdawn.

It uses multiple dice for resolution, of several different types (you might roll d8+d10 for one action, and d4+d6 for another, depending on how good you are). It's pretty crunchy, and should hack well to Pathfinder, though you might have to make up some races to fill holes (D&D and pathfinder tend to make non-human playable races short... Earthdawn leaned towards tall or weird).

Crunchy, well balanced, and fun.

EDIT: My usual suggestion for something like this would be Hackmaster, but it doesn't use the dice pool method, instead using primarily d20s for combat and d100s for skills. It also has a free version.

Knaight
2014-01-30, 02:56 PM
Well im looking for the following (Or as close as possible):

A system that uses multiple dice for successes (AKA stuff like the WOD system), and is primarily made for fantasy.

Preferably it has a wide and fluffy spell system (Balance is very nice but not critical).

...Im also looking for non-rules lite games. Not exactly heavy, but just Im not a fan of lite rules.

REIGN. You want REIGN for this. A quick overview of your points:

Multiple Dice
REIGN is a d10 dice pool system in which you look for sets of numbers. Specifically, you look for sets of the same number. The number of dice in the set determine how fast an action goes off, and the number that the dice in the set individually roll determines how good the action is. For example four dice that roll seven would be a 4x7 set. It would be very fast, and sufficient to do most any action - barring a few high intensity spells. A remarkable amount flows from this. For instance, multiple actions involve dropping a die from the smaller dice pool and rolling, and you need multiple sets to actually use both actions. The number of the set (it's height) determines where you hit an enemy in combat, called shot mechanics come down to losing one die from the pool, setting one die to whatever number you want, then rolling the rest - which means the called shot mechanic includes cases where you still hit, but not where you wanted to. It's a brilliant mechanic.

Wide and Fluffy Spells
REIGN has spell schools in a very literal sense - that is to say there are sets of spells, and the sets are attached to actual organizations, usually schools. Examples of these schools:
Sunwise Healers - Healers from desperate circumstances or mad for power who climbed a sacred mountain and stared into the sun risking blindness. They heal, they make magical prosthesis out of stone, and anyone who sought to become one is probably not someone you want to cross.

Smoke Sculptors - Smoke sculptors specialize in magically crafting things from smoke. They make massive walls in an instant, which can be pushed over by a few people on account of how light they are if they didn't have the sense to brace them against trees. They inhale smoke and spit it at their opponents, turning it to a smoke arrow as it flies off. So on and so forth.

Earthquake Drummers - A stone shaping school involving drums. Mostly they break things, though they can also build, if not at the speed or on the scale of the smoke sculptors. On the other hand, said buildings are going to be made of actual stone.

Flame Dancers - I think the title explains this one. Notable spells include some wide area attacks, an attunement procedure wherein one practically immunizes themselves to nonmagical fire if things go right and drastically raises their body temperature and makes themselves unable to contact others if things go wrong.

Ironbone Priests - They paint symbols on people's bodies to make them stronger, faster, etc. for a time. Or, they engage in ritual scarification to do the same thing permanently. Their attunement spell involves literally turning part of their bones to iron, making them substantially tougher in combat, substantially slower in everyday life, and substantially less likely to be anywhere near a boat if they have two braincells to rub together.

Not Rules Light
REIGN is 400 pages. The mechanics are fairly dense, and while many of these pages are setting it's still not what I would call rules light. Then there are the two free expansions, which clock in at something like another 400 pages together.

Sampling REIGN
The core engine of REIGN is also used in Nemesis, which is free. Nemesis is a very different game in a few ways, as it is tuned for modern horror instead of fantasy and is less developed in the first place, but it does give you some idea of what the mechanics look like. Just completely ignore the Madness meters, and realize that some of the core mechanics of REIGN - handling organizations from street gangs to kingdoms - aren't there.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-01-30, 03:16 PM
Oooh, REIGN is a really good call too!

Airk
2014-01-30, 04:43 PM
Multiple Dice
REIGN is a d10 dice pool system in which you look for sets of numbers. Specifically, you look for sets of the same number. The number of dice in the set determine how fast an action goes off, and the number of the dice in the set determines how good the action is. For example four dice that roll seven would be a 4x7 set. It would be very fast, and sufficient to do most any action - barring a few high intensity spells. A remarkable amount flows from this. For instance, multiple actions involve dropping a die from the smaller dice pool and rolling, and you need multiple sets to actually use both actions. The number of the set (it's height) determines where you hit an enemy in combat, called shot mechanics come down to losing one die from the pool, setting one die to whatever number you want, then rolling the rest - which means the called shot mechanic includes cases where you still hit, but not where you wanted to. It's a brilliant mechanic.

Maybe it's brilliant, but your explanation is awful. o.o I've read this like four times, and I have no idea how this even works. Was the hightlighted section a typo? It seems like you were trying to say "<something> determines how fast and action goes off and <something else> determines how good the action is" but you used the same something, so I don't know why you'd even phrase it that way? my brain hurts.

Manly Man
2014-01-30, 04:45 PM
Anima has felt like a good system so far, but I will warn you that it's pretty confusing to make a character the first time or two.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-01-30, 05:29 PM
Maybe it's brilliant, but your explanation is awful. o.o I've read this like four times, and I have no idea how this even works. Was the hightlighted section a typo? It seems like you were trying to say "<something> determines how fast and action goes off and <something else> determines how good the action is" but you used the same something, so I don't know why you'd even phrase it that way? my brain hurts.
REIGN is a pretty neat system, I think I can have a go at explaining it. (The core engine gets used in a lot of games, including my current favorite, Hollowpoint.) I believe the post was typoed, but I'll hash out the explanation to try to help explaining.

You roll a pool of dice, then look for matching dice. So let's say you have the following roll...

2, 4, 4, 5, 7, 7, 7

You have two "sets" in this roll: the pair of 4s and the triplet of 7s. These are represented, in game notation, as 2x4 and 3x7, respectively. (It sounds like a lot of bookkeeping, but it's really just notation that becomes absorbed into your instinct. It's a way of talking about in-game dice positions, just as chess notation is a way of describing board position.)

The number of dice in a set (its "width") determines how quick the action can be taken. The value of the dice in that set (its "height") determines how successful the action is. I may have those backwards, but I don't think so. You pick one of those sets to use. That's the core of the mechanic, and you can play with it for various rules variations. (Like mentioned, multiple actions become easy: before you roll, lose a die and split your pool.)

Mark Hall
2014-01-30, 06:14 PM
REIGN is a pretty neat system, I think I can have a go at explaining it. (The core engine gets used in a lot of games, including my current favorite, Hollowpoint.) I believe the post was typoed, but I'll hash out the explanation to try to help explaining.

You roll a pool of dice, then look for matching dice. So let's say you have the following roll...

2, 4, 4, 5, 7, 7, 7

You have two "sets" in this roll: the pair of 4s and the triplet of 7s. These are represented, in game notation, as 2x4 and 3x7, respectively. (It sounds like a lot of bookkeeping, but it's really just notation that becomes absorbed into your instinct. It's a way of talking about in-game dice positions, just as chess notation is a way of describing board position.)

The number of dice in a set (its "width") determines how quick the action can be taken. The value of the dice in that set (its "height") determines how successful the action is. I may have those backwards, but I don't think so. You pick one of those sets to use. That's the core of the mechanic, and you can play with it for various rules variations. (Like mentioned, multiple actions become easy: before you roll, lose a die and split your pool.)

So, if I understand you correctly, someone rolling the above set of dice would be best served to take the 3x7, because it has both the greatest width and height... it's fastest and best. If she were doing two actions, however, the second would be at the worse 2x4... less width, less height, and not as effective, though still SOMETHING.

Are there 1x sets? If you roll 1,4,4,9, is there a situation where you want the 1x9 instead of the 2x4?

Knaight
2014-01-30, 06:31 PM
Are there 1x sets? If you roll 1,4,4,9, is there a situation where you want the 1x9 instead of the 2x4?

Sets need at least two dice to do anything, though dice not in sets (waste dice) crop up occasionally in the mechanics. That said, 1,4,4,4,9,9 is a situation where the 2x9 might be more useful than the 3x4.

As for the original post, the typo has been cleaned.

Mark Hall
2014-01-30, 06:36 PM
Sets need at least two dice to do anything, though dice not in sets (waste dice) crop up occasionally in the mechanics. That said, 1,4,4,4,9,9 is a situation where the 2x9 might be more useful than the 3x4.

As for the original post, the typo has been cleaned.

As I understand it, the 3x4 would be faster, but less effective than the 2x9, right?

It's a neat mechanic.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-01-30, 08:26 PM
As I understand it, the 3x4 would be faster, but less effective than the 2x9, right?

It's a neat mechanic.
Precisely! I should've called that out with a better number distribution (where there wasn't one obvious best choice), but yeah.

Hollowpoint is my favorite instance of this mechanic, but that's unrelated to this discussion.

CombatOwl
2014-01-30, 09:49 PM
A bit old, but you might look at Earthdawn.

It uses multiple dice for resolution, of several different types (you might roll d8+d10 for one action, and d4+d6 for another, depending on how good you are). It's pretty crunchy, and should hack well to Pathfinder, though you might have to make up some races to fill holes (D&D and pathfinder tend to make non-human playable races short... Earthdawn leaned towards tall or weird).

Crunchy, well balanced, and fun.

EDIT: My usual suggestion for something like this would be Hackmaster, but it doesn't use the dice pool method, instead using primarily d20s for combat and d100s for skills. It also has a free version.

That and Earthdawn's setting is the same as Shadowrun, but set thousands of years earlier.

Scowling Dragon
2014-01-31, 12:13 AM
Hmm. Well Earthdawn looks decent. What edition would you suggest?

Airk
2014-01-31, 10:48 AM
Okay, that makes a lot more sense now. Interesting system, but it seems like it might get a little bit time consuming on repeated dice rolls if the pools get large.

Knaight
2014-01-31, 06:11 PM
Okay, that makes a lot more sense now. Interesting system, but it seems like it might get a little bit time consuming on repeated dice rolls if the pools get large.

There's a hard cap of ten dice in a pool, outside of exactly one situation (optional skirmish mechanics for individual battles of a few dozen to a few thousand people). It actually goes very quickly because of it - the core math of the dice rolls themselves is very simple, and pretty much consists of recognizing that numbers are the same. It's comparable to a dice pool system, and faster than a roll and add system. Plus, because so much gets handled by one roll it actually ends up working faster than systems with smaller amounts of dice that use more rolls. For instance, in combat the one roll determines: Initiative, hit location, damage, and whether something hits. That's a good four rolls in most systems, or three in those where hit location simply isn't. There are others where it is one, but they are the exception and tend not to be all that rules heavy. Moreover, REIGN does this for just about everything.

Airk
2014-01-31, 09:38 PM
It's comparable to a dice pool system,

I'd expect it to be markedly slower than a dice pool system, simply because dividing dice into X piles takes longer than into 2 piles, but not having to do any sort of mental 'check' on the number probably helps.


That's a good four rolls in most systems, or three in those where hit location simply isn't. There are others where it is one, but they are the exception and tend not to be all that rules heavy. Moreover, REIGN does this for just about everything.

Interesting. (Though in any system I'd actually play, it's only two rolls. Initiative ever round is silly IMHO). I'm a little curious as to how many other types of rolls even have that much 'data' to extract though.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-02-01, 11:10 PM
I'd expect it to be markedly slower than a dice pool system, simply because dividing dice into X piles takes longer than into 2 piles, but not having to do any sort of mental 'check' on the number probably helps.

It's slower, but in my experience, you very quickly learn to see sets in a roll.

Scowling Dragon
2014-02-02, 01:14 AM
Not exactly sure what the point of the sets are. Its a choice between fast and good, but in my experience that rarely pops up, and when it does fast IS good so there is no need for multiple selections.

Deathkeeper
2014-02-02, 01:27 AM
Finding games that I can grasp within a reasonable amount of time is hard. I'll be looking up some of these.
My main gripe is with games that are heavy in every respect: Eclipse Phase isn't so complex in its gameplay, but character gen for my first time seemed a bit clunky and complex, and after I'd made it I had to constantly refer back to the book because every other sentence of the game required me to know some bit of the hundreds of pages of lore that even an avid reader like me had trouble getting through in a reasonable period of time. Games like D&D and PF are usually generic at their core, but even when using the Inner Sea or Eberron you can just skim the lore on history and areas you aren't in and do fine.

Hida Reju
2014-02-02, 07:31 AM
It was not my cup of tea but the Dragon Age RPG by Green Ronin seems to fit what you want.

Airk
2014-02-02, 01:35 PM
Not exactly sure what the point of the sets are. Its a choice between fast and good, but in my experience that rarely pops up, and when it does fast IS good so there is no need for multiple selections.

I was under the impression that generally, no, you wouldn't choose a 'faster' set over a larger one, but as a consequence, you would act later than someone who got a faster set. It's not so much a 'choice between fast and good' - especially since at least some of the time the best option will also be the fastest one - so much as 'one roll determines both how fast and how good you are'. Which is to say 'loading extra information into one die roll'.

Knaight
2014-02-02, 03:41 PM
I was under the impression that generally, no, you wouldn't choose a 'faster' set over a larger one, but as a consequence, you would act later than someone who got a faster set. It's not so much a 'choice between fast and good' - especially since at least some of the time the best option will also be the fastest one - so much as 'one roll determines both how fast and how good you are'. Which is to say 'loading extra information into one die roll'.

Yes and no. A very large part of it is loading as much information into one die roll as possible (and it gets a fair amount), along with the ways sets let you do things like multiple actions in a conflict, but there are plenty of cases where you would choose a faster set over a larger one. For instance, in combat one of the effects of getting a hit is that you take a die out of a set of the person you're hitting. It might not be a set that they are actually going to use, but it might also very well be worth making a fast hit to the leg instead of a slower hit to the head if that means that you get to prevent their action. Plus, there are also plenty of cases where fast is better than good - examples include making a case under extreme time pressure (e.g. convincing a noble to do something particular about the enemy army that is literally ten minutes away from the gate) and some sort of race, where you care much more about getting to the end than getting to the end in any sort of impressive shape.

Rhynn
2014-02-02, 03:42 PM
I can easily think of situations, especially in combat, where a fast action can be the more attractive choice: you may be hoping that a fast but mediocre attack will drop your opponent, because you're not confident you could survive being attacked yourself.

Similar set-ups are easy to imagine in other situations: sometimes, you have to finish/act first, and worry about the result later.

Scowling Dragon
2014-02-03, 03:59 PM
Ah. So it also acts like initiative. Got it. Guess it works better under time restraints.

Knaight
2014-02-03, 04:24 PM
Ah. So it also acts like initiative. Got it. Guess it works better under time restraints.

Under combat circumstances, yes. It's speed in general though - there are a lot of tasks that might take 3 hours/days/weeks/whatever with a set of 2, 2 with a set of 3 and 1 with a set of 4, for example.

Scowling Dragon
2014-02-03, 05:15 PM
Hmmm. The more I think about it, the less appeal it has to me.

Knaight
2014-02-03, 05:29 PM
Hmmm. The more I think about it, the less appeal it has to me.

Well, it's not for everyone.

Which brings up another possibility: Torchbearer. It's a spiritual successor to early D&D, and it works best in a dungeon focused game. It's very much not rules light (sure, it's only 200 pages, but that's deceptive. It's written very efficiently, and gets a lot of mechanics in those 200 pages), it uses a dice pool system, and it's not narrativist. The spells are very much not just damage, though I wouldn't classify it as wide and fluffy - but that's the only real hole.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-02-03, 05:43 PM
Which brings up another possibility: Torchbearer. It's a spiritual successor to early D&D, and it works best in a dungeon focused game. It's very much not rules light (sure, it's only 200 pages, but that's deceptive. It's written very efficiently, and gets a lot of mechanics in those 200 pages), it uses a dice pool system, and it's not narrativist. The spells are very much not just damage, though I wouldn't classify it as wide and fluffy - but that's the only real hole.
I will note that, though I love this game, it bears repeating that the spells are quite restricted. It's a very faithful spiritual successor (nice use of the term! "homage" didn't quite feel right) to D&D in that way. :smallwink: You have a strict spell list, and your mage gets to prep a few of those spells.

It's very much "you are scum adventurers who are only out here because you don't have any other options" in tone, too, bear that in mind. You will suffer from dungeon to dungeon and maybe turn a profit. :smallbiggrin: