After the Charm...

[SirKillalot]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but:

What exactly happens after Charm spells end?

Say I am a warlock, starting a cult and I charm a few subsequent potential members into joining. Then, the spell's duration ends... Will their opinions shift back and make them realise what a fool they've been? or will their opinions remain positive towards me, without them actually being compelled by the spell, as long as I don't take any baleful actions towards them?

In other words, can I use Charm as a startup or is the entire effect temporary...?

[Rijan_Sai]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but:

What exactly happens after Charm spells end?

Say I am a warlock, starting a cult and I charm a few subsequent potential members into joining. Then, the spell's duration ends... Will their opinions shift back and make them realise what a fool they've been? or will their opinions remain positive towards me, without them actually being compelled by the spell, as long as I don't take any baleful actions towards them?

In other words, can I use Charm as a startup or is the entire effect temporary...?


CHARM
Charming another creature usually makes that creature
friendly according to the Inf luencing NPC Attitudes
table (see page 66). Charms of this type include the various
charm spells. A charmed creature retains free will but
makes choices according to a skewed view of the charming
creature.
• A charmed creature doesn’t gain any magical ability to
understand its new friend’s language.
• A charmed creature retains its original alignment and
allegiances, with the exception that it now regards the
charming creature as a friend and gives great weight to
that creature’s suggestions and directions.
• A charmed creature fights former allies only if those
allies threaten the charming creature. Even then, the
charmed creature uses the least lethal means as long
as such tactics show any possibility of success, just as
the charmed creature would do in a fight between two
actual friends.
• A charmed creature is entitled to an opposed Charisma
check against the charming creature to resist
requests to do something it wouldn’t normally do
even for a friend. If successful, the charmed creature
decides not to go along with that particular request
but remains charmed.
• A charmed creature never submits to a request that is
obviously suicidal or grievously harmful.
• If the charming creature requests that the charmed
creature do something that the charmed creature is
violently opposed to, the charmed creature can make a
new saving throw to break free of the charming effect’s
infl uence altogether.
• A charmed creature is freed of the charming effect if it
is openly attacked by the charming creature or by that
creature’s apparent allies.

So, given that there seems to be no rules regarding the spell ending on it's own (1 hour/level), it would seem that, as long as you and your allies do not take any hostile actions towards the Charmed One, they stay "Friendly."

It would probably still behoove you to take Beguiling Influence to get the boost to your Bluff and Diplomacy skills, for a more "long term" approach.

[Falcon X]

Rijan_Sai nailed it. But if I may offer flavor:

I always viewed Charm like the Suggestion Spell. It's a subtle and permanent influence that the Charmed person may never realize.
In a suggestion spell, you plant an idea in their mind and force their brain to justify why it should be done using their own logic.
For example, a suggestion could be "Toy with that enemy"
- When cast on an Evil Berserker, the guy's mind will say "This opponent is beneath me. Let me watch it squirm!"
- When cast on a Paladin, the guy's mind will say "Let me not kill this opponent immediately, so that it has a chance to surrender."

Likewise, Charm Person is a semi-permanent effect that will connect dots in the person's head to make them listen to you more readily.
For example:
- When cast on an hostile enemy, the charm will bring him to neutral loyalty, effectively changing his mindset to "Maybe I can use this person instead of killing him," or "This person isn't worth it."
- When cast on someone of neutral loyalty, it might look like: "Hey there's something special about this person. He has [blank] good quality that I've known in other people I like. I think I want to be his friend," or "whoah, I just realized this guy and me have the same goals here. We should work together!"

[Zweisteine]

If the effect of the spell continued with so much effect after it ended, it would be far too powerful, but it makes little sense for it to just end. I'd say that when it ends, they are friendlier than they were (maybe attitude would be improved by one step). They don't see anything unusual about it; they just say a guy clearly had a great personality (or rather, they saw him and just knew he was a great guy, and trusted him right away). After a bit, it fades, and they think of him more of an acquaintance, but that quality of friendliness they saw is gone, and they think of him as they might someone they met at a party (i.e. they barely know him, but would be inclined to be friendly, as long as nothing happens to change that).

Though you likely would be unable to get them to join a cult with just a charm. It would make them willing to listen to you, giving you a chance to convince them, but if they already have a religion, they generally would have no reason to change.

What kind of cult is it, anyway?

[Slipperychicken]

I'd say the target's attitude reverts when the effect wears off, much like when drugs or alcohol wear off. Then the target can put what just happened into perspective, may regret it, and will most likely take offense.

Most people don't take kindly to being drugged or duped, so I think people would treat charm/dominate spells in much the same way as roofies, "truth serums", and other mind-altering substances.

[Duke of Urrel]

I'm with Slipperychicken. Think of it this way. Suppose you were the one who was charmed and you were persuaded to join a cult while under the influence of enchantment. Now the charm has worn off. How do you feel?

I think it all depends on how easily you would have been persuaded to join a particular cult without being charmed at all.

I also think the same rules should apply to both PCs and NPCs. Not many PCs who are charmed feel very Friendly toward the spellcasters who charmed them after the charm wears off. I think NPCs should behave in the same way.

Postscript: You asked whether a Charm spell works well as a "startup." I wouldn't use an Enchantment spell first if I had another, "softer" option that might work, such as Diplomacy. It's easier to try Diplomacy first, and if that doesn't work, use the Charm spell. It's harder to try the Charm spell first and then, after the charm wears off, try Diplomacy. Creatures formerly charmed by you are likely to be a little resentful (Unfriendly rather than Indifferent) and therefore harder to persuade with Diplomacy. But creatures you formerly failed to persuade with Diplomacy can easily have a "change of heart" when you charm them.

[Domriso]

So long as the character does not realize that they were magically persuaded, I would rule that the character "comes to their senses" and tries to fill in the blanks of why they would have thought that other way to begin with. I think we've all had opinions of ours changed at some point or another, and when looking back on those choices they seem incredibly dumb or without good reason (or perhaps reason based on flawed assumptions/knowledge).

But, if they ever come to the realization that they had been magically charmed, I think they would react like most people would: hurt, betrayed, and above all angry that they had been duped.

In the case of belonging to a cult due to Charm Person, I would say that they come out of the charm effect feeling confused as to why they agreed to join a cult based on so little, but that, depending on the size of the cult, they would probably stay for as long as they felt pressured to stay in the group. That's how many cults work in the real world anyway.

[HaikenEdge]

I have to agree that the effects of Charm wear off after the spell's duration end. Contrast it with Hypnotism, which has the following language in the spell description:


While the subject is fascinated by this spell, it reacts as though it were two steps more friendly in attitude. This allows you to make a single request of the affected creature (provided you can communicate with it). The request must be brief and reasonable. Even after the spell ends, the creature retains its new attitude toward you, but only with respect to that particular request.

This text seems to imply that, without this text, a creature does not retain the effect of the spell after the spell ends, since Hypnotism explicitly states that it is the effect.

Edit: Regarding remembering being charmed, it can go either way. Hypnotism has the following text:


A creature that fails its saving throw does not remember that you enspelled it.

This seems to imply that, without the text, creatures who fail the saving throw remembers being charmed, but without text explicitly saying this, it's only an inference, at best.

[Slipperychicken]

Of course, the creature's friends can potentially identify that he's charmed/dominated with a Sense Motive check (25 for charmed, 15 for dominated). For comparison, I'd say that's analogous to recognizing that someone's drunk, high, or buzzed.

The creature remembering doing a bunch of stuff he regretted should get an easy Knowledge (Arcana) check (DC 5 probably, can be done untrained) to recall that magical charms and compulsions are a thing. From there, it should be easy to piece together why he just did a bunch of favors for some sketchy cult mage.

If the actions taken while under magical influence reasonably adhered the creature's normal behavior and personality, I'd say it would be somewhat difficult to figure it out without outside assistance.