Gishing in e8?

[ddude987]

Hey everyone! I am playing in an e8 campaign, that might actually go up to 10th level. I am retiring my current character, and decided I want my next character to be a caster, but I also want to use a non standard weapon, like a flail or longspear, so I decided gishing sounded like fun. Do you think gishing can be viable in an e8 game? How would you approach it? Assume feats aren't an issue in this scenario.

[Seerow]

Gishing is doable by level 8, and around level 10 (if you go that high) you should hit your stride.

Full BAB class2/Caster Class4/Spellsword1/Abjurant ChampionX is a pretty basic Gish. This gets you 4th level spells by level 10 (3 lost caster levels total) plus BAB+8. It also has flexibility for whatever full BAB class and caster you prefer. Best bet is probably Warblade/Wizard (since cutting off at level 7 means if you go Paladin/Sorcerer, another option, you get stuck at 3rd level spells). [Edit: Also +6 BAB by level 8, which in a potentially E8 environment is probably more important.]

Basically you come out a little behind a straight cleric (losing a few levels of casting in exchange for a point of BAB and a different spell list), but well ahead of any of the gish base classes (Duskblade, Ranger, Paladin, etc).

[Manly Man]

Psychic Warrior is a great gish-in-a-can as well, and if you're allowed to use Pathfinder stuff, try presenting to your DM the idea of playing a Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus).

[Urpriest]

Gishing is doable by level 8, and around level 10 (if you go that high) you should hit your stride.

Full BAB class2/Caster Class4/Spellsword1/Abjurant ChampionX is a pretty basic Gish. This gets you 4th level spells by level 10 (3 lost caster levels total) plus BAB+8. It also has flexibility for whatever full BAB class and caster you prefer. Best bet is probably Warblade/Wizard (since cutting off at level 7 means if you go Paladin/Sorcerer, another option, you get stuck at 3rd level spells).

Basically you come out a little behind a straight cleric (losing a few levels of casting in exchange for a point of BAB and a different spell list), but well ahead of any of the gish base classes (Duskblade, Ranger, Paladin, etc).

It's e8, so level 10 will never happen.

Since it's e8, nobody is going to get a third iterative barring weird capstone feats, so you don't need more than BAB +6. Ideally you still want to get 4ths if you can.

Classes like Druid and Cleric can manage this easily (and Druids even get Large Wildshape), but I assume you're going for an arcanist.

That's...actually pretty tricky. Can't think of a good way to do it, honestly.

Which means you have to decide, what are you willing to sacrifice?

Missed the "might go up to 10th level" bit.

[ddude987]

Thanks for the idea Seerow, that sounds like a good plan in general.

Well we do have one player playing an alchemist in the 3.5 campaign, the backwards port went great.

Urpriest, I would be willing to sacrifice spells. While 4th level spells are good, I'm not trying to break the game here, and there are plenty of good 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells.

[Zweisteine]

Duskblade is the default for a gish-in-a-can.

There is a fighter variant that sacrifices the first fighter bonus feat for limited spell failure reduction (or maybe just ignoring some). That might be used with wizard (or maybe sorcerer) to make a gish, but I'm not sure if it woul dbe any good.

A Cleric can be a powerful gish as well.


If you're going to level 10, I might suggest the Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327). You can get in as a Wizard by level 7, but it's a bit feat-intensive for someone without any melee class levels.

[ddude987]

Also, with a 32 point by, what kind of stat layout do I want to have?

[Seerow]

It's e8, so level 10 will never happen.

From the OP


I am playing in an e8 campaign, that might actually go up to 10th level


Either way, the build I posted works at level 8 as well, hitting the 2nd iterative attack and still casting as a 5th level caster, which while not ideal is still beating the snot out of any half-caster classes.

If more focus was wanted on the Arcanist side of things, could go Fighter1/Wizard6/Spellsword1, but then you're giving up that extra iterative, a bunch of HP, and Abjurant Champion goodness until level cap gets raised.

[shadow_archmagi]

As always, I appear to tout my favorite Gish ever, the Ardent/Incarnate/Soul Manifester. (Actually, just plain Ardent would also work.)

There's also always Swordsage, which was designed around what a gish should be thematically (integrating magic into a combat style rather than either casting OR punching)

[ddude987]

Oh yeah, swordsage... so the acf for them that makes them cast arcane spells, it says they work as maneuvers. Does that mean they work in an amf RAW?

[Seerow]

Oh yeah, swordsage... so the acf for them that makes them cast arcane spells, it says they work as maneuvers. Does that mean they work in an amf RAW?

No.

Also I think he was referring to just straight swordsage, with a focus on supernatural maneuvers. Arcane Swordsage is generally considered one of the most broken things out there.

[ddude987]

Oh, alrighty. I'm debating something like 1 Human paragon/1 Fighter/2 Sorc/2 Human paragon/1 Spellsword/X Abjurant Champ

So what would a 32 pb look like? 18 X where X is casting stat, but what about str dex con?

[roguemetal]

If you have access to Dragon Magazine #336, I would go straight up Mystic Ranger.

With Sword of the Arcane Order and Alternate Spell Source, you get the casting progression of a sorcerer with good spell access on a full BAB ranger, and all spells can be prepared arcane for arcane strike use.

[ddude987]

don't you still need a spellbook for sword of the arcane order? I'm a little fuzzy on how it is supposed to work, and it doesn't make much sense.

[Seerow]

If you have access to Dragon Magazine #336, I would go straight up Mystic Ranger.

With Sword of the Arcane Order and Alternate Spell Source, you get the casting progression of a sorcerer with good spell access on a full BAB ranger, and all spells can be prepared arcane for arcane strike use.

Does Mystic Ranger get CL = Class level?

And does Sword of the Arcane Order count as Arcane spells, or do you just get to cast all of the Sorcerer/Wizard spells as Divine spells?

[Coidzor]

don't you still need a spellbook for sword of the arcane order? I'm a little fuzzy on how it is supposed to work, and it doesn't make much sense.

Yes, but that's not exactly that much of a hurdle, though it is much easier if there's a wizard to share with.

[ddude987]

There is not a wizard to share with. For getting a spellbook and placing spells in it myself, do I just roll spellcraft checks? Is SotAO really that simple :O

[Coidzor]

There is not a wizard to share with. For getting a spellbook and placing spells in it myself, do I just roll spellcraft checks? Is SotAO really that simple :O

You can just buy a spellbook, but it'd be blank till you filled it by copying or scrolls. Mastering a spellbook is a matter of spellcraft checks if I recall my Complete Arcane correctly.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Take Magical Training (some FR book) at level 1, it gives you 3 cantrips and a spellbook.

[shadow_archmagi]

No.

Also I think he was referring to just straight swordsage, with a focus on supernatural maneuvers. Arcane Swordsage is generally considered one of the most broken things out there.

Yeah. Just doing stuff like throwing the occasional fireball, or using a summon to flank, or teleporting a little bit... these are all basic manuevers, but they're very much things that you'd expect from a swordsman/spellcaster.

[Mitchellnotes]

While ive never actually played E8, i like designing characters in it.This is one of my favorites.

So it isn't exactly a gish, but duskblade 3/swashbuckler 3/swordsage 2 (though not exactly in that order, end with at least one level in swordsage) will get you pretty gishy, though probably not like a traditional gish. Good feats to include would be knowledge devotion, fascinating and deceptive illuminations, shadow blade, gloom razor, practiced spellcaster, poison spell and possibly (arguably) daring outlaw and weapon finesse? Grab your favotite shadowblade weapon and go to town you could even do TWF if you were inclined. Max dex and int

This would give you int and dex to damage with knowledge devotion, 4d6 to sneak attack (assassins stance and daring outlaw) with arcane channeling (5d6 shocking grasp), 3rd level maneuvers, possibility of adding poison, good number of skill points, lots of hypnotic patterns and silent images.Gloom razor and other stances and maneuvers provide some good protection, decent hp, and pretty good saves.

You could also possibly go into energy sub. and born of three thunders if you felt inclined. Toss this on a whisper gnome chassis and go to town!

Sorry for any grammar, on my cell.

[ddude987]

Wow, that gish is quite entertaining and very interesting. I thoroughly enjoyed reading that build.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For an E8(10) character, there are plenty of effective builds you can go with to make a gish.

Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 1(3+) is pretty standard. It has good Cha synergy, you have the alignment to cast Sanctified spells if you get Arcane Preparation, as well as this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4). Feats like Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Minor Shapeshift, and of course Practiced Spellcaster are standard choices. Go with a Dragonblood race such as Silverbrow Human or Spellscale and get Fell Drain Spell plus Practical Metamagic for it. Use that with spells like Death Armor, Cloud of Knives, Thunderlance, Fire Shield, Kelgore's Grave Mist, Power Word: Pain, etc.

If you prefer to use Wizard, a Human Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 1(3+) is better than starting out Fighter 2/ Wizard 4. This Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) from UA gets you another Fighter feat instead of Scribe Scroll. Use the same feats as the above build, but you'll have more feats so get Combat Reflexes, Extend Spell, even Improved Toughness and/or Improved Initiative.

If you want to keep it simple, a single-classed Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) makes a decent gish, as long as you use this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) to help make up for its drawbacks. The above builds are better because they get class features, but this one doesn't lose any spellcasting and you won't be high enough level for the lower BAB progression to matter.

[Hytheter]

possibly (arguably) daring outlaw and weapon finesse?


Weapon Finesse is a bonus feat for Swashbucklers.
I'm sketchy on Daring Outlaw though (which might be why you said "aurguably"); it has 2D6 Sneak Attack as a pre-requisite, and I'm not convinced that Assassin's Stance would qualify, seeing as its only a temporary boost.

Without or without it though I really like your build. Just remember that you can't totally dump STR, since neither Shadow Blade or Insightful Strike outright replace your STR to damage, so a negative STR modifier will cut down your damage. In fact, if you can have decent STR as well then all the better.

[Mitchellnotes]

Weapon Finesse is a bonus feat for Swashbucklers.
I'm sketchy on Daring Outlaw though (which might be why you said "aurguably"); it has 2D6 Sneak Attack as a pre-requisite, and I'm not convinced that Assassin's Stance would qualify, seeing as its only a temporary boost.

Oh yeah, good call on weapon finesse. I was thinking off the top of my head and forgot that swashies get it for free. Your point is exactly why its arguable if you could get daring outlaw, could be a nice option though.

Another cool option could be getting the fey heritage feats for some dr and slas

[Xerlith]

While in the stance, you qualify for the feat explicitly - you have the Sneak Attack dice.
Beginning at 3rd Swashbuckler level, it qualifies for itself.
By RAW it should work.

[TiaC]

If you're going to use a spellbook anyway, I'd recommend Full BAB class 5/Chameleon 3. +7 BAB, 3rd level spells including some deeply discounted ones, CL 6, and it leaves space for 3rd level maneuvers.

Alternatively, Bards or Trickster varient Spellthiefs are both quite effective out-of-the-box.

[Petrocorus]

Straight Psychic Warrior 8 or Ardent 8 (with the custom mantle from Mind's Eye) are perfectly fine too in E8.

[Rebel7284]

Second Mystic Ranger!

You can combine with Wildshape Ranger too!

[ddude987]

Straight Psychic Warrior 8 or Ardent 8 (with the custom mantle from Mind's Eye) are perfectly fine too in E8.

Never played psionics, I'm a huge arcane magic fanboy


Second Mystic Ranger!

You can combine with Wildshape Ranger too!

I would, but there is already one of those in the party.

What are general thoughts on Duskblade as a class? Any recommended PrCs for it after level 3?

[gorfnab]

Duskblade 5/ Abjurant Champion 5 - Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, Arcane Strike, and Extra Spell (Shield, if your DM allows it) or some other feat.

Beguiler 1/ Duskblade X - take Versatile Spellcaster to use Duskblade spells slot to cast Beguiler spells.