Druid Build.

[DMJeff]

Okay Iv'e read and understand the premise of a druid tank. Seen some unique and cool idea's. I have to draw up a NPC follow along and rp wise I like it when their foriegn this one I'm going with a Thri-kreen My new favourite weird playable creature class of the week. Yes some people will tear them down but DND is just as much about the Flavour of charecter's as it is about the Build's. A Cleric who has a fear of dog's even though he has slaughtered Lycan's adds more then one who isn't in my opionion.

So I need a good druid build if some one has the links for one or any Idea's. Since I like to keep my NPC's simple I was leafing through the PHB 2 and had a look at the alternative Druid giving them the form's instead of a slew of form's.

Basically If your able to point out an Incredible Tank build with the phb 2 Druid alternative that can help out my softer group of adventurer's I would much appreciate it. It truly saves me so much time to hit an arsenal of other's and there Idea's.

[eggynack]

I don't think that either of those things really works all that well for druid-style tanking. I suppose you could run some sort of quarterstaff based build, casting stuff like shillelagh, brambles (SpC, 38), and entangling staff (SpC, 83) in order to make you somewhat more efficient at that goal. That's probably the most druid weapon-based combat thing out there, which synergizes decently with both shapeshift and thrikreen. You should definitely look into the fourth fangshields druid substitution level (CV, 40), which trades resist nature's lure for the ability to spontaneously convert any spell into cure light wounds. It's a non-humanoid only thing, so that's nifty, but the other two levels require wild shape. None of this stuff I've listed here is, y'know, good, but it fits together reasonably well.

Edit: A real problem here is that there really isn't a build for shapeshift. Wild shape has a bunch of awesome feats, like dragon wild shape and exalted wild shape, and animal companions have a bunch of awesome feats, like natural bond and companion spellbond, but shapeshift has basically no feats that directly improve it, and it's also really really bad. Doesn't really fit with the whole, "Grant me a cool build" thing all that well.

[bekeleven]

Shapeshift is bad, and especially bad compared to Wild Shape, but the Druid is good enough that a shapeshift druid can pull ahead anyway. Extensive use of the ability will move the Druid's playability down, but buffs (like Heart Of.., Frostburn snow combos, Cloud Wings, Burrow, Forestfold, Essence Of the Raptor, or what have you). The thing is:

Animal Companion is tier 5 on its own (can be optimized with buffs and VoP).
Wild Shape is tier 3 on its own (Tier 2 with MoMF).
Spells are tier 1 on their own.

You're giving up both lesser abilities and hindering the best one in exchange for an ability sitting around tier 4-5ish. The more time you spend in shapeshifting form, the more bookkeeping you're spending for no power or versatility return, and the more tempting a barbarian becomes. I mean, the barbarian can use weapons and equips to make up anything it can't do natively. How can a shapeshift druid?

[eggynack]

As a quick note, essence of the raptor is cool, but raptor cloud (SoS, 128) is cooler. I don't know if it's better, but it's definitely cooler. Also, druids make up for things they can't do natively by having very little they can't do natively. I really hate shapeshift though. The same goes for swift hunter. They're both nigh-on strictly inferior versions of what they're replacing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wild Shape is miles ahead of the Shapeshift variant in terms of tanking. Thri-Kreen costs you two racial HD and a level adjustment, and brings absolutely nothing to the table mechanically since everything it gives you will be completely replaced when you wild shape. Switching to the shapeshift variant to retain the Thri-Kreen's benefits still ends up with a weaker tank than keeping Wild Shape and forfeiting the Thri-Kreen bonuses. Just because Thri-Kreen are the flavor of the month doesn't mean that the next NPC you introduce has to be one.

Check out a Druid Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0), read through it thoroughly and absorb everything, and take its advice on what not to do to make a strong Druid.

[bekeleven]

As a quick note, essence of the raptor is cool, but raptor cloud (SoS, 128) is cooler. I don't know if it's better, but it's definitely cooler. Also, druids make up for things they can't do natively by having very little they can't do natively. I really hate shapeshift though. The same goes for swift hunter. They're both nigh-on strictly inferior versions of what they're replacing.
I was recommending fire-and-forget buffs. Raptor Cloud, while cool, is R/L. Not good when you have to shapeshift out and back in to cast it. Essence is at least 10M/Level.

Also, standard action-cast, rounds/level buffs have to really impress me. Raptor cloud does not really impress me.

[eggynack]

I was recommending fire-and-forget buffs. Raptor Cloud, while cool, is R/L. Not good when you have to shapeshift out and back in to cast it. Essence is at least 10M/Level.

Also, standard action-cast, rounds/level buffs have to really impress me. Raptor cloud does not really impress me.
Very true on both counts. But it is cool. Also, one way concealment doesn't pop up all that much on the druid list as individual spells.

[Dugong]

What level are we talking about for this druid? At low levels (before wildshape) you're probably better off using a few spells to buff your quarterstaff and animal companion, at higher levels you can use wildshape (remember, wildshaping heals you as if you had 8 hours of rest!) into combat forms (think cave Anklyosaurus with its +17 natural AC).

Combine that with castings of vigor and the bite of the X series (which are incredibly good for up close and personal fights as it increases your STR, DEX, CON and natural AC) can make sure not just that you won't get hit in combat, but you can quickly heal yourself during the fight.

[kbpb90]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0

Everything you need for a druid

[Grod_The_Giant]

For a follower, I fully support using the Shapeshift ACF, but... is there any particular reason you were thinking druid for a class? The combination of LA and RHD is terrible for a caster, and still pretty bad for anyone who likes having class levels.

[DMJeff]

Yes some people will tear them down but DND is just as much about the Flavour of charecter's as it is about the Build's.


Just re quote It will be a thri-kreen. It isn't just about the build but also the tangible rp that would follow with a thri-kreen potentially adopting players as clutch mates willing to self sacrafice. I don't always include strict build NPC's that's truly nonsense.

But what I'm getting so far is that the phb alternative to wild shape truly suck's lol. Shame would of helped keep things simpler for having to control a mass of NPC's. And this Druid will be around 11-12 ish.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Just re quote It will be a thri-kreen. It isn't just about the build but also the tangible rp that would follow with a thri-kreen potentially adopting players as clutch mates willing to self sacrafice. I don't always include strict build NPC's that's truly nonsense.

But what I'm getting so far is that the phb alternative to wild shape truly suck's lol. Shame would of helped keep things simpler for having to control a mass of NPC's. And this Druid will be around 11-12 ish.
It's not bad, it just pales in comparison to Wild Shape (as most class features that aren't spellcasting do). It also still loses the main mechanical draw of the race (four arms).

[DMJeff]

Alright how about in the main Druid class then? for say a level 12 ish.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You're a bunch of CL behind, and have racial hit die... maybe go for a Druid/Master of Many Forms build, rather than a straight caster druid?

[DMJeff]

You're a bunch of CL behind, and have racial hit die... maybe go for a Druid/Master of Many Forms build, rather than a straight caster druid?

Sounds very interesting whats the source book for it or is it just a build. Many form's?

[eggynack]

Sounds very interesting whats the source book for it or is it just a build. Many form's?
It's from complete adventurer, page 58. Definitely one of the best non-casting druid prestige classes, which means that it's not all that great. You're really putting together a master of many forms build at that point, rather than a druid build. Those low level spells are still nice though.

[DMJeff]

It's from complete adventurer, page 58. Definitely one of the best non-casting druid prestige classes, which means that it's not all that great. You're really putting together a master of many forms build at that point, rather than a druid build. Those low level spells are still nice though.

hmm hmm will defiantly check it out thank you. Going to be a long night game is tomorrow.

[bekeleven]

Definitely one of the best non-casting druid prestige classes, which means that it's not all that great.

There are only ~2-3 prestige classes generally agreed to be more powerful than the advancing Druid base class, and maybe 4-6 with tradeoffs but arguably similar power. MoMF falls into neither of these categories, as it doesn't advance full casting, but it still posesses campaign-wrecking power if optimized. For instance, once you can turn into large aberrations, Darktentacles (from MM2) can wield a dozen huge 1-handed weapons at once. MoMF is one of the most powerful bruiser classes short of ubercharger paladins and barbarians, with strong versatility to boot.

Druid 5 / MoMF 10 / Druid + 5 is the easiest build. Others work off of Wildshape ranger, or work in Warshaper or Nature's Warrior.

Here's (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1060931) the bible.

[eggynack]

There are only ~2-3 prestige classes generally agreed to be more powerful than the advancing Druid base class, and maybe 4-6 with tradeoffs but arguably similar power. MoMF falls into neither of these categories, as it doesn't advance full casting, but it still posesses campaign-wrecking power if optimized. For instance, once you can turn into large aberrations, Darktentacles (from MM2) can wield a dozen huge 1-handed weapons at once. MoMF is one of the most powerful bruiser classes short of ubercharger paladins and barbarians, with strong versatility to boot.

It's pretty sweet, no disputing that. Falls somewhere between tier two and high tier three, I think, depending on what kinda cheese you're pulling. And there is definitely cheese. I think I have about eight on my list of power increasers or not-decreasers, by the by, as long as you include dips. My current list is something like hathran, lion of talisid, moonspeaker, planar shepherd, contemplative, divine oracle, holt warden, and seeker of the misty isle. Adding spells to your list is neat, especially when you weren't approximating the abilities being granted all that well. I especially like a dip of holt warden followed by contemplative for the spell domain. Sacred exorcist is decent, but it's hard to enter, and persisting spells isn't as good when you're working with the druid list as it is with the cleric list.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're going to use Master of Many Forms, you may as well use Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) to qualify. Or even better, make it a Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) and just skip base classes altogether. Also, don't forget to include two to four levels of Warshaper in CW.

[eggynack]

If you're going to use Master of Many Forms, you may as well use Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) to qualify.
I generally disagree with this. Even without natural spell, third level spells still provide more stuff than those five ranger levels do. Mystic wild shape ranger comes a lot closer though. The only thing that really makes wild shape ranger preferable is that it's a transition that feels better.

[bekeleven]

I generally disagree with this. Even without natural spell, third level spells still provide more stuff than those five ranger levels do. Mystic wild shape ranger comes a lot closer though. The only thing that really makes wild shape ranger preferable is that it's a transition that feels better.

Yeah. It "Feels better" because you aren't giving up your powerhouse druid abilities by prestiging, but pop quiz, druids are stronger (even at level 5) than rangers. The Ranger entry gets you 4 iteratives depending on your post-MoMF levelling, but... why do you use iteratives as an octopus tree?

I've also been over the rulings 50 times, and I'm 99% sure divine minion doesn't qualify for MoMF. Even if it does, you don't get animal forms. And even if that does, you're effectively playing a tier 0 class and have broken the game, and your DM will tell you to go home.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Druid 5 / MoMF 10 / Druid + 5 is the easiest build. Others work off of Wildshape ranger, or work in Warshaper or Nature's Warrior.
Personally, I try to cram in my 5 levels of Warshaper as soon as possible, to get that lovely Multimorph going.

[eggynack]

Personally, I try to cram in my 5 levels of Warshaper as soon as possible, to get that lovely Multimorph going.
It's alright, but I don't think warshaper fits that well with druid style morphery. It feels like master of many forms is all about becoming a pile of utterly ridiculous things, and using crazy monster powers to break the game in half, while warshaper is all about hitting things in the face. It just doesn't add all that much. It's nice enough, as a way to finish off an MoMF build, but I wouldn't rush into it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's alright, but I don't think warshaper fits that well with druid style morphery. It feels like master of many forms is all about becoming a pile of utterly ridiculous things, and using crazy monster powers to break the game in half, while warshaper is all about hitting things in the face. It just doesn't add all that much. It's nice enough, as a way to finish off an MoMF build, but I wouldn't rush into it.
The rest of the class I can do without, but... Multimorph basically turns Wild Shape into at-will shapeshifting, since you can use as many different forms as you want within that 1 hour/level Wildshape. Especially once you get humanoid forms from MoMF.

[bekeleven]

The rest of the class I can do without, but... Multimorph basically turns Wild Shape into at-will shapeshifting, since you can use as many different forms as you want within that 1 hour/level Wildshape. Especially once you get humanoid forms from MoMF.

It's all right, but MoMF gives you 1 Wild Shape per class level. Combined with a hat of disguise, there's rarely a reason you need more shifts.

[eggynack]

The rest of the class I can do without, but... Multimorph basically turns Wild Shape into at-will shapeshifting, since you can use as many different forms as you want within that 1 hour/level Wildshape. Especially once you get humanoid forms from MoMF.
It's decent, I suppose. Certainly doesn't seem worth delaying your hyper-wild shape progression by five levels though. Also, I'm not entirely sure what makes humanoid forms so neat. They don't seem to provide all that much, though sneakiness could be a factor.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's all right, but MoMF gives you 1 Wild Shape per class level. Combined with a hat of disguise, there's rarely a reason you need more shifts.
Unlimited shifts makes the utility aspect a lot more appealing. And it's just more fun to be able to change shape whenever you want.


It's decent, I suppose. Certainly doesn't seem worth delaying your hyper-wild shape progression by five levels though. Also, I'm not entirely sure what makes humanoid forms so neat. They don't seem to provide all that much, though sneakiness could be a factor.
Humanoid forms are more for roleplaying than for mechanics-- you can turn back into something "civilized" when you need to talk to an NPC without ending your Wild Shape. (Yeah, yeah, ape with a hat of disguise...)

[eggynack]

Humanoid forms are more for roleplaying than for mechanics-- you can turn back into something "civilized" when you need to talk to an NPC without ending your Wild Shape. (Yeah, yeah, ape with a hat of disguise...)
Ah. Oh well then. Always looking for cool new ways to use fangshields druid substitution levels, though what I've found thus far has been less than exciting. They're nice substitution levels, and any druid with access is practically legally required to pick up the hands in a wild shape at least, but they're not great.