Designing a couple of villains

[Blackhawk748]

Im currently designing a campaign in which the players will each take command of a small kingdom. We will be using the rules in AEG Empires. Now the players will not be starting out allied together, if they want to they can, but there are no preexisting connections between characters.

Now i dont want to have a ton of NPC kingdoms, but i think one or two may be ok, as well as possible invading armies. As such they should be capable leaders. I have however DMed this type of game before, and so as not to have repeats i shall list the villains i've had in the past. A vampire Dread Necro Gish, an Albino Black Dragon, a Paladin of Tyranny Templar, and some Barbarian Dwarves.

Im not so much looking for builds as that i am trying to get my brain working, so mostly concepts. oh and the game starts at lvl 10

[Red Fel]

My advice? An ordinary human. High Int, Wis, Cha; exceptional social skills, Spot and Listen rolls, and basically everything a person should have to rule properly.

Monsters are a big red "kill this thing" flag. But an ordinary, non-magical human who simply runs an empire? Assuming your players even figure out that he's the villain, you may actually have an encounter that doesn't end in combat.

You don't even need PC classes for this guy. Just wealth, intelligence, and influence. Plus an army and some well-trained bodyguards. Give him powers if you want, but don't make them obvious. I'm a fan of Psionics, for example. The problem is that if you give your villain powers, you might feel compelled to show them off - and that's basically an invitation to have your villain whacked. Keep him cool and subtle, and your players may decide never to fight him at all.

Challenge your players in new and interesting ways. Pit them against David Xanatos.

[Blackhawk748]

I do believe that my players would appreciate a Xanatos Gambit, considering that our resident Sorcerer can almost set them up. Also just plain brilliant

[Baroknik]

To that end consider having the leader be a thrallherd and put his thrall on the throne. Really throw off PCs who come looking.

He who pulls the strings rules the crown...

[Red Fel]

I do believe that my players would appreciate a Xanatos Gambit, considering that our resident Sorcerer can almost set them up. Also just plain brilliant

I happen to think that subtle villains are more enjoyable for everyone than over-the-top powerbeasts.

I can just see this one, too. Heroes cleared out some chaotic cult? He's grateful, because it helps keep his citizens safe - and exposed a vault of powerful relics hidden beneath their temple. Put a stop to the corrupt ruler of a neighboring country? Delighted, because that puts an end to the stand-off between their two countries - and allows him to devote more resources to his eventual apotheosis.

Craft a scheming character who is not personally threatening, and indeed has no reason to take issue with the heroes. He'll even help them out, from time to time - it's in his interests, after all, if they succeed. They'll dance on his string, particularly if it's in their interests to do so anyway. And it always will be.

Watch them set him up for victory. Watch them suddenly, sickeningly, realize that he set them up to win the game for him. Watch them rush to stop him. Then, watch him pull an Ozymandias (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYZqC7EGMfM).

I love a good villain.

[Blackhawk748]

Well i believe that i will now attempt to make a Thrallherd who is Xanatos + Ozymandias. Now, what to make his end goal?

[Azoth]

I am a fan of the hidden king so to speak. Take an area that is deemed deadly to enter (dense forest, thick jungle, insane mountain range), and fill it with creatures and plants that turn normal people into snack food. Once this is established well and good, give it numerous tribes of people who not only survive here, but thrive. The reason they have no true "king" is because each tribe is busy murdering or being murdered by another.

Civilized people leave this place alone, and it leaves them alone. Everyone is content to let the savages kill eachother in peace, because no one wants to step into that hell hole and try to sort them out.

This is a great setup for at any point you want to spring a surprisingly organized and psychotically strong military force on anyone at their borders.

Then, they have the fun of either dismissing a random raid by a bold chieftan or trying to realize that there is a "King of the Jungle". Also, the fun of trying to hunt him down to "deal with him" however they wish to try it.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Succubus lichfiend, disguised as human :smallbiggrin:

shapeshifting things! Monsters that mind control a puppet king!

[ChaoticDitz]

Succubus lichfiend, disguised as human :smallbiggrin:

shapeshifting things! Monsters that mind control a puppet king!

Or better yet, a diplomancer puppeteering monsters who think they're mind-controlling the puppet king... And just for the sake of cliche, you can't forget the diplomancer's advisor, who for his job has an oddly high score in Bluff...

[sol_kanar]

Monsters are a big red "kill this thing" flag.

I agree and this gives me an idea: you could put an NPC monster-king/queen that is a actually a sensible ruler, and he/she is really trying its best to make his/her kingdom prosper.

The "monster-ruler" could be used as a "scapegoat" by the true villain: the villain could disseminate false evidence pointing to the monster, just to put the PCs and the monster kingdom against each other.

As for this monster itself, it could be a Medusa Queen, or a trio of hags (like in the nation of Droaam in the Eberron campaign setting), or even a (reasonable) Green Dragon. In a plot twist, he could be known as a "Green Dragon", but actually have a template like Half-Celestial (to be discovered later in the game).

[Red Fel]

Well i believe that i will now attempt to make a Thrallherd who is Xanatos + Ozymandias. Now, what to make his end goal?

I'd go with one of two. Either he's a Pragmatic Villain (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PragmaticVillainy), seeking to maintain a balance between exercising his domination and not attracting too much attention, in which case he simply wants to rule his domain (and maybe expand a little, but not too much); or he wants apotheosis. I mean, who doesn't want to become a god, particularly in a cosmology where it's extremely possible?


I agree and this gives me an idea: you could put an NPC monster-king/queen that is a actually a sensible ruler, and he/she is really trying its best to make his/her kingdom prosper.

This. I love the inversion. The man who is a monster, and the monster who is a decent human being.

When you think about it, even an LE non-human wants her kingdom to succeed; that means she may rule with an iron fist, but she wants strong, healthy citizens, who are smart and capable, and fiercely loyal. She will do things to protect their interests, even earn their admiration, because it's in the interests of an orderly, obedient society to have healthy, happy, respectful, reverential citizens.

And if the monster is LE-but-nice, it pings on Detect Evil, which means that the heroes will potentially be making a very big mistake if they decide to "Detect Evil first, Smite Evil second, ask questions later."

[Dr. Cliché]

My advice? An ordinary human. High Int, Wis, Cha; exceptional social skills, Spot and Listen rolls, and basically everything a person should have to rule properly.

Monsters are a big red "kill this thing" flag. But an ordinary, non-magical human who simply runs an empire? Assuming your players even figure out that he's the villain, you may actually have an encounter that doesn't end in combat.

You don't even need PC classes for this guy. Just wealth, intelligence, and influence. Plus an army and some well-trained bodyguards. Give him powers if you want, but don't make them obvious. I'm a fan of Psionics, for example. The problem is that if you give your villain powers, you might feel compelled to show them off - and that's basically an invitation to have your villain whacked. Keep him cool and subtle, and your players may decide never to fight him at all.

Challenge your players in new and interesting ways. Pit them against David Xanatos.

I think these sort of villains can be a lot of fun.

Personally, I quite enjoy having a main villain with no power (though a lot of charisma, leadership and/or intelligence), and one or more lieutenants who do have power.


When you think about it, even an LE non-human wants her kingdom to succeed; that means she may rule with an iron fist, but she wants strong, healthy citizens, who are smart and capable, and fiercely loyal. She will do things to protect their interests, even earn their admiration, because it's in the interests of an orderly, obedient society to have healthy, happy, respectful, reverential citizens.

Indeed.

I quite like this sort of moral quandary - is it better to have an evil ruler who at least maintains order, or to overthrow him and risk throwing his domain into chaos?

[Blackhawk748]

Ok so we've got a Monster Whose a Man, and, im not gonna split hairs here, Xanatos. Also loving the Barbarian King idea, be great for a random invasion to throw a giant monkey wrench into the players plans, and of course Xanatos planned for it.

[Elvenoutrider]

Oh I have lots of great villains for this sort of thing.

I have prior Peter, who has decided that since the gods have chosen to put him in charge, then anything he does to vanquish evil is automatically good and redeemed. He has offered an army worth of criminals full pardons and redemption for any crimes they have Amd will commit in his service. He considers the loss of his class abilities a mere test of his faith.

Then there is lord Zarick - a red dragon and his offspring with a tribe of kobolds ruling over a human kingdom. Humans are treated as cattle where the women are forced to constantly breed more soldiers while the men are either enslaved to work on farms or drafted into military service. The successful, innovative, or otherwise most useful workers are exempt from being a dragons dinner and can expect a decent wage and slaves of their own

Use gestalt villains to really throw the pcs for a loop. Make the green goblin from Spider-Man as gunslinger/alchemist

Take villains from your favorite series and use them. If it interests you I guarantee it can work in a new setting

[KorbeltheReader]

This. I love the inversion. The man who is a monster, and the monster who is a decent human being.

When you think about it, even an LE non-human wants her kingdom to succeed; that means she may rule with an iron fist, but she wants strong, healthy citizens, who are smart and capable, and fiercely loyal. She will do things to protect their interests, even earn their admiration, because it's in the interests of an orderly, obedient society to have healthy, happy, respectful, reverential citizens.

And if the monster is LE-but-nice, it pings on Detect Evil, which means that the heroes will potentially be making a very big mistake if they decide to "Detect Evil first, Smite Evil second, ask questions later."

This is exactly what I was thinking when I saw the paladin of tyranny. A paladin of tyranny really believes in autocracy, right? Believes that one-man rule is the most efficient and effective way to govern? Well, kingdoms are judged primarily by prosperity and military power, so he'll strive to create a prosperous, powerful, just kingdom. He'll use fiat, underhanded tactics, and fear when necessary, and will probably have a vast network of spies, torturers and assassins, but he might be successful and loved by the people!

Moreover, there's no reason he would necessarily think he's evil. He might see himself as "results-oriented," doing whatever is necessary for his kingdom. He might look at the good-evil axis as unrealistic-realistic.

[Red Fel]

This is exactly what I was thinking when I saw the paladin of tyranny. A paladin of tyranny really believes in autocracy, right? Believes that one-man rule is the most efficient and effective way to govern? Well, kingdoms are judged primarily by prosperity and military power, so he'll strive to create a prosperous, powerful, just kingdom. He'll use fiat, underhanded tactics, and fear when necessary, and will probably have a vast network of spies, torturers and assassins, but he might be successful and loved by the people!

Moreover, there's no reason he would necessarily think he's evil. He might see himself as "results-oriented," doing whatever is necessary for his kingdom. He might look at the good-evil axis as unrealistic-realistic.

Absolutely. And admittedly, the latter part of your post gets into the old-as-time "What is Evil in D&D" alignment debates. But yes; there are many ways to play a villain, from the ruthless but practical Xanatos, to the psychotic Joker, to the omnipotent but childish Q; villains can be tragic or unrepentant, gleefully sadistic or coldly pragmatic; season to taste.

As an aside, OP, consider this - your players may very well create their own villains. By infuriating an NPC, or letting a random monster or enemy live, they may create someone with the potential to grow into a threat in his own right. Always watch how the PCs interact with your NPCs, and how the players react to them; if you see an NPC your players will love to hate, change your plans and make them into a proper enemy.

Sure, everyone expects that the neighboring, bloodthirsty Barbarian King they've heard so much about may someday become their enemy, but who expects to be on the receiving end of a team of assassins dispatched by the cabbage vendor they harassed in the first town?
MY CABBAGES!

[mucat]

Ok so we've got a Monster Whose a Man, and, im not gonna split hairs here, Xanatos. Also loving the Barbarian King idea, be great for a random invasion to throw a giant monkey wrench into the players plans, and of course Xanatos planned for it.

For your pool of inspiration, don't forget Lord Vetinari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havelock_Vetinari).

[sol_kanar]

Another interesting "king" could be someone extremely powerful, but not interested in conquest (or in some way, unable to move from its kingdom). Someone that could be either a powerful ally or a dangerous enemy, but mostly keeps to its own. Will the PCs risk contacting it for an alliance? Will the "Man-Monster" try to include it in his machinations?

Some examples:

A high-level wizard, content of doing research in his small island. He utterly destroyed any army that crossed his borders, but never tried to expand. He is interested only in Magic, and might ally with someone that points him towards a way to increase his knowledge.
A mummy, or some sort of undead guardian tied to a particular place (a palace, a tomb, ...); almost invincible inside its domain, totally powerless outside (or it simply cannot venture out of its borders).


Now that I think about it, this idea is also used in Eberron, for the elven Undying Court, powerful positive-energy undead that can exist only inside a Manifest zone tied to the plane of positive energy. Curse you, Keith Baker, you have all the awesome ideas :-D

[Rabidmuskrat]

The Undying Man: Class wise this particular villain is nothing special, maybe a Fighter 15 or Fighter 5/Ranger 10 or something like that, but what makes him really special is that he has been cursed. He cannot die. In any way.

He is actually older than sin and so jaded by humanity he refuses to work with or trust almost anyone. His eventual goal is just to find a way to break the curse and die once and for all.

You can have him run a small kingdom or wander around as a free roaming troublemaker that the law just can't seem to deal with: no matter how many times they hang him, he just keeps coming back!

[Callin]

How about a LE Intelligent Throne that is the actual leader. It slowly pushses and guides all rulers to suit its goals. Could be that the first king of said kingdom had his essence put in it to guide his family brcause they were not as strong as him and he felt that they couldnt do as good a job as him. But with the super high ego and a few failed saves BAM. He is back in control.

[Haldir]

A huge wilderness area filled with malevolent druids who want to convert the other kingdoms back to nature. Cliche, but if they had a plant army, that would be a neat way to mix things up.