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Yogel
2014-01-30, 11:54 PM
Hello everyone!

This is my first time posting on these forums, and I thought I'd do so by posting something that took some time to design. Based on the 3.5 core books I designed a system that gets rid of levels and classes. Completely free-form. Let me know any criticism, critiques, or suggestions you have! some of it may seem a bit jumbled but I tend to type as I think.



D&D 3.5 leveless and classless variant.

Character Creation –

At character creation players start with a base 200 xp to create their characters.

All characters start with all ability scores of 8(before racial modification). After choosing the characters race and modifying the ability scores accordingly, the player may choose 2 of these score to increase by 3 points.

Races –

Human Racial Traits –
Humans are medium creatures – no special bonuses due to size
1 free class feature (no cantrips)
30 feet base speed
No Ability Score adjustments

Dwarf Racial Traits –
Dwarves are medium creatures – no special bonuses due to size
+2 Constitution, -2 Charisma
20 feet base speed
Darkvision
Stonecunning
Weapon familiarity: may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven warhammer as martial weapons, rather than exotic.
Stability - +4 bonus on ability checks vs bull rush or trip while standing on the ground
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison
+4 dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the ‘giant’ type
+2 appraise checks related to stone or metal items
+2 craft checks related to stone or metal

Elf Racial Traits –
Elves are medium creatures – no special bonuses due to size
+2 dexterity, -2 constitution
30 feet base speed
+4 saving throw bonus vs enchantment spells or effects of the sleep type
Farsight – Elves are able to see farther than any other race, +4 spot checks as well as ignoring range increment penalties on long and short bows.
Weapon Proficiency – longsword, and longbow
+2 bonus on listen, and search checks

Gnome Racial Traits –
Gnomes are small creatures - +1 size bonus to AC, attack roles, and +4 bonus on hide checks, small weapons, ¾ carry/lift capacity
+2 Intelligence, -2 strength
Low-light vision
Weapon familiarity – may treat hooked hammers as martial weapons
+2 bonus on saving throws vs illusion spells and effects
+1 DC on any illusion spell cast by gnomes
+1 bonus on attack roles vs kobolds and goblinoids
+4 dodge bonus vs monsters with the ‘giant’ type
+2 bonus on listen checks
+2 bonus on craft alchemy checks
+1 bonus on attack roles and damage with crafted grenade like weapons, as well as a 20 foot increased range increment with these weapons.

Half-Elf Racial Traits –
Half-Elves are medium creatures – no special bonuses due to size
No ability score adjustments
30 feet base speed
Farsight – Elves are able to see farther than any other race, +4 spot checks as well as ignoring range increment penalties on long and short bows.
+4 saving throw bonus vs enchantment spells or effects of the sleep type
+1 bonus on listen, and spot checks
+2 bonus to diplomacy and gather information
Elven blood: all effects that are related to race, a half-elf is considered an Elf

Half-Orc Racial Traits –
Half-Orcs are medium creatures – no special bonuses due to size
+2 Strength, - 2 wisdom
30 feet base speed
Orc blood: all effects that are related to race, a half-elf is considered an orc

Halfling Racial Traits –
Halflings are smal creatures - +1 size bonus to AC, attack roles, and +4 bonus on hide checks, small weapons, ¾ carry/lift capacity and a +4 bonus to hide checks, small weapons, ¾ carry/lift capacity
+2 dexterity, -2 strength
20 feet base speed
+2 bonus on climb, jump, and move silently checks
+1 bonus on all saving throws
+1 bonus on attack roles with thrown weapons and slings
+2 bonus on listen checks

Skill point costs -
Cost to acquire the next rank in the skill = current rank + 1
all skills are class skills, except for Use Magic Device, and Spellcraft.,making those class skills requires you to have the cantrip list of any caster “class” purchased(10xp) or pay 5 xp to make it a class skill, then you may purchase ranks in it.

For every 10 points in the spellcraft skill, your spells DC's gain a +1

Also, at character creation you may pick 2 knowledge skills to be your class skills, all others are untrained.

Feat point costs -
10 XP + 10 XP per prerequisite.
Max of 3 feats at character creation(Humans are maxed at 4)

Spell point costs -
Spells are the odd ball, you can't just spend XP to learn a spell, you must research the spell in game.

You must have an INT, WIS or CHA score of 11 + spell level to learn the spell (to include cantrips).

Cantrips - 10 XP earns you the entire cantrip list (must have a score of 11 in the casting score) for whatever class it is based from. I.E...cleric, paladin, bard, ranger, or wizard/sorcerer(because of changes made to the spell system, the Wizard and Sorcerer “class” has been merged)

Cost for individual spells -
Level of spell x 10

There are no more "spells known" or "spells per day" lists. You learn spells by studying them.

Arcane magic spells are now at will. However, each level incurs an additional 5% spell failure chance.

Spell Failure chart -
Cantrips - 0%
Level 1 - 5%
Level 2 - 10%
Level 3 - 15%
Level 4 - 20%
Level 5 - 25%
Level 6 - 30%
Level 7 - 35%
Level 8 - 40%
Level 9 - 45%

Divine magic is cast in much the same way. However, Divine casters have the option of wearing armor with the use of feats. By purchasing the Armored Caster feat anyone with access to divine spells may wear armor without incurring a casting penalty greater than that of the arcane spell caster(see failure chart above).

Feat –

Light Armored Caster
Prerequisite: Divine Cantrips
Benefit: Allows divine magic to be cast while wearing Light armor.
Normal: Spell incur a 100% spell failure when wearing armor.

Medium Armored Caster
Prerequisite: Divine Cantrips
Benefit: Allows divine magic to be cast while wearing Medium armor.
Normal: Spell incur a 100% spell failure when wearing armor.

Heavy Armored Caster
Prerequisite: Divine Cantrips
Benefit: Allows divine magic to be cast while wearing Heavy armor.
Normal: Spell incur a 100% spell failure when wearing armor.

Domains are granted by the deity in whom your character worships.

Reducing spell failure chance –

For every Rank a caster has in the skill “Spellcraft” they reduce their failure chance by 1%.

The way this will work, each level of spell has a % chance to fail, when rolling percentiles, if you roll at or below the number listed, you fail the spell. With ranks in spellcraft, you may add your ranks to the number rolls.

I.E. a spellcraft rank of 5, I rolled a 41, which gives me a total of 46(one more than needed). I successfully casted the level 9 spell.

Class features -
50 for introductory class features.
25 x # of increments owned for each increment of that class feature. I.E...sneak attack of 1d6 costs 50 XP. 2d6 costs 25 XP. 3d6 costs 50 XP, 4d6 cost 75xp.

BAB cost = next rank x 10

Saving throw cost = current rank x 5

Ability score cost = ability score modifier x 10. Minimum of 10. Ability scores with negative modifiers do not yield XP back to the players.

Buying more Hit die = ½ new total number of hit die of the type of HD you're buying x HD rank x10.

Example -
½ x 1d4 x1(rank 1 HD) x10 = 10
giving the player 2d4.

½ x 2d12 x5(rank 5 HD) x10 = 75
giving the player 3d12

Buying new types of HD(also upgrading starting HD at character creation) -

At character creation you start with a 1d4, however you can upgrade this so you start with a larger die.

Upgrade cost of hit die = Rank of hit die upgrading to x10. So if I wanted to changing my starting hit die from a d4 to a d12 it would be rank 5x10 = 50 xp.

It functions a little differently after character creation. You may purchase a new type of hit die throughout your characters life for the same cost as if you were upgrading. This is not however an upgrade. Instead it adds that die type to you HD pool. Because of this you could have 2d4, 2d8, and 2d12 for a total of 6 hit die.

The first hit die you have is rolled maxed. After that you roll according to the chart.
D4 = 2+d2
D6 = 3+d3(d6/2)
D8 = 4+d4
D10 = 5+d5(d10/2)
D12 = 6+d6

~xFellWardenx~
2014-01-31, 12:29 AM
Looks fine, but this belongs in the Homebrew section, sonny.

Crake
2014-01-31, 12:35 AM
I think you might just want to see if you can find a new gaming system if you're gonna change it around this much

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-01-31, 12:38 AM
Try World of Darkness from White Wolf.

Rover
2014-01-31, 12:41 AM
Or maybe Mutants and Masterminds.
with a little home brewing and a fantasy setting

Blackhawk748
2014-01-31, 12:57 AM
I second World of Darkness, hell you can use those rules for anything

OldTrees1
2014-01-31, 01:02 AM
Question:
Int 19 = 8(base) + 2(Gnome) +3(char gen) +6(10xp+20xp+20xp+30xp+30xp+40xp)
1 9th level spell(90xp)
Cost: 240xp
Was this intentional?

Yogel
2014-01-31, 05:14 AM
The story teller system is the first PnP game system I ever started playing, and while I think it's fun, it gets extremely bogged down with higher level characters.

"Question:
Int 19 = 8(base) + 2(Gnome) +3(char gen) +6(10xp+20xp+20xp+30xp+30xp+40xp)
1 9th level spell(90xp)
Cost: 240xp
Was this intentional? "

No it wasn't. Though, it may be on par. With this system I'll be, on average, handing out only 10 xp a session. 20-30 when players complete story arcs. That and level 9 spells have a 45% chance of failing. It's also up to the DM on when to give access to these spells.

I may get rid of the +3 to any two ability scores. To make it more difficult.

Gemini476
2014-01-31, 05:49 AM
Or maybe Mutants and Masterminds.
with a little home brewing and a fantasy setting

I'll second that suggestion. There's even a fantasy supplement out (warriors and warlocks?), so you don't even need all that much work.

Just grab the 2e core book, Ultimate Power, and Warriors and Warlocks, and you're set.

You could grab 3e otherwise, but it's slightly further divorced from the base d20 and you'll need to convert the splatbooks.

Low level D&D is PL 6 or so, IIRC, while 9th level spells can be properly started up at PL 12-15ish.

You just need to lay out some restrictions, maybe have basic point buy packages for races/suggested classes, and you're done.


If you want Point Buy then GURPS could also work, although you'll need to figure out which supplements you want for the High Magic of D&D. Just don't go World of Darkness; it doesn't handle high level characters well, as Exalted 2E was all too glad to show.

I'll also recommend Dungeons the Dragoning 40,000 7.6th Edition, but it runs more on a slightly Dark Heresy-esque class system. Still point buy, though! You just need to tone down the available tech and Exaltations and set it in a fantasy world and you're pretty much set.

Altair_the_Vexed
2014-01-31, 05:58 AM
It's been done before, professionally.

You might like to look at this: "Buy the Numbers" (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/18175/Buy-the-Numbers?it=1).

It was nominated for an award, you know.

Me, I bought it, read it, and decided not to use it. It's an interesting thought experiment, but it doesn't lend itself well to easy play or low-preparation.

I'm afraid that looking at your proposal, I'd say the same thing - there's too much work here for a GM creating and running NPCs.

Yogel
2014-01-31, 05:59 AM
Thanks for the suggestions everybody. I'm pretty dead set on along this work though as I've already put a lot of work into it. I'm a tinkerer, I'll keep at this until I get a product that functions the way I want it to. It's just the way I am.

Any suggestions on making it work...better?

*edit* Could a moderator please move this to the homebrew section? Sorry for the mix up.

Yogel
2014-01-31, 01:12 PM
You just need to lay out some restrictions, maybe have basic point buy packages for races/suggested classes, and you're done.

Restrictions...hmm. What if I restricted spell casting to the casting ability scores modifier? That way even at a score of 20 you would be limited to casting 5th level spells max. You'd need a score of 28 to get it up to level 9 spells. Gaining only 10 to 20 XP a session will make that next to impossible.

OldTrees1
2014-01-31, 01:52 PM
Restrictions...hmm. What if I restricted spell casting to the casting ability scores modifier? That way even at a score of 20 you would be limited to casting 5th level spells max. You'd need a score of 28 to get it up to level 9 spells. Gaining only 10 to 20 XP a session will make that next to impossible.

Quick question: It does cost 50xp to go from 13Int to 16Int right? 13->14 (+10xp), 14->15(+20xp), 15->16(+20xp)

Upgrading your Int by 2 takes (current modifier * 20xp)
28 Int would take (Gnome+10+40+60+80+100+120+140+160=710xp)
1 9th level spell = 90xp (used primarily out of combat to render the 45% spell failure rate negligible)

Total: 800xp


Barbarian 1:
Human (Free Class Feature: Rage)
18 Str (11+5 10+10+10+20+20+30+30=130xp)
16 Con (11+5 10+10+10+20+20=70xp)
1d12HD (5x10=50 xp)
+1BAB (10xp)
Saves: +2/+1/+1 (0->+1=0x5xp, +1->+2=1x5xp) 5xp
2 feats[Power Attack, Extra Rage] (20xp-40xp depending on interpretation of prereqs)
285-305xp (without Fast Movement/Pounce)


It still seems odd that a caster of 9th level spells would have less than 3x the xp of a 1st level Barbarian

Gemini476
2014-01-31, 03:25 PM
Restrictions...hmm. What if I restricted spell casting to the casting ability scores modifier? That way even at a score of 20 you would be limited to casting 5th level spells max. You'd need a score of 28 to get it up to level 9 spells. Gaining only 10 to 20 XP a session will make that next to impossible.

With "Restrictions" I was more meaning to have pre-made packages for spells or races and such so that you limit the horrid min-maxing inherent to point-buy systems. Although in the case of races that's less because of min-maxing and more just controlling what you as a GM find appropriate. Or just suggestions.

One thing you might otherwise consider is to have artificial "levels" for abilities - to learn a Xth level spell you must first know a (X-1)th level spell, a Nth level spell can only consist of so-and-so many points worth of abilities... Like a Fireball doing Y dice of damage, but a higher level Fireball doing Y+Z dice of damage or whatever.

You'll want to make some kind of system for assigning points to spells (and point limits for each spell level) or something, though. Otherwise you have problems like X points of spell 1 not being equally powerful as X points of spell 2 despite both being the same level.


I'm probably not explaining this pretty well, but whatever. I recommend taking a look at some point-buy games, however; check what the devs have said about the design of World of Darkness (since you seem familiar with it), read some of the Mutants & Masterminds 3E SRD, maybe find some other ones...
No use reinventing the wheel, after all. Check if other people have done what you are trying to do (damage mechanics, spells, whatever) and see where they went wrong and where they went right so that you get a better idea of the big picture.

Yogel
2014-01-31, 04:06 PM
Quick question: It does cost 50xp to go from 13Int to 16Int right? 13->14 (+10xp), 14->15(+20xp), 15->16(+20xp)

Upgrading your Int by 2 takes (current modifier * 20xp)
28 Int would take (Gnome+10+40+60+80+100+120+140+160=710xp)
1 9th level spell = 90xp (used primarily out of combat to render the 45% spell failure rate negligible)

Total: 800xp


Barbarian 1:
Human (Free Class Feature: Rage)
18 Str (11+5 10+10+10+20+20+30+30=130xp)
16 Con (11+5 10+10+10+20+20=70xp)
1d12HD (5x10=50 xp)
+1BAB (10xp)
Saves: +2/+1/+1 (0->+1=0x5xp, +1->+2=1x5xp) 5xp
2 feats[Power Attack, Extra Rage] (20xp-40xp depending on interpretation of prereqs)
285-305xp (without Fast Movement/Pounce)


It still seems odd that a caster of 9th level spells would have less than 3x the xp of a 1st level Barbarian

You bring up a good point. But that barbarian is going to be way more rounded than a gnome that bee-lines to meet the requirements for a spell that a DM might not let him have early. That character wouldn't be of any use to the party until he was able to purchase that one single spell. 800 xp (60 gaming sessions if you count the 200 starting xp) worth of sessions is a looong time to be useless.