Who Is More Powerful Across Op-Levels?

[BrokenChord]

... Between a Sorcerer of a PHB race or a subrace of one of those races, with no RHD or LA...

... And a black dragon of a CR equal to said Sorcerer's ECL?

The main questions are: One, does the age of the dragon affect how they match up with the sorcerer growing alongside the dragon? For example, would an Old Black Dragon do better or worse against a 16th-level Sorcerer than a Wyrmling would do against a 3rd-level Sorcerer?

Second, since for the purposes of fairness I'm assuming equal optimization on both sides in all cases, how does changing the level of optimization tip the scale one way or the other? My own hypothesis would be that as optimization level increases, the battle starts favoring the Sorcerer more, while of course the inverse holds true and a lower-op battle leaves the dragon with the advantage. This is simply based on their spellcasting, as the higher-op you go, the less anything you have other than spellcasting matters, and the sorcerer will have significantly higher level casting from the exact same list. However, I imagine I might hear arguments against this.

Oh, and the last obvious question; on the whole, which side do you think is stronger? The Sorcerer, or the black dragon?

[Zweisteine]

I'm going to guess, based on general optimization theory, that, if he chose the right spells, the sorcerer will be stronger, because casting wins. This will vary based on level and optimization, but a full caster is generally better than a partial caster.

I would also assume the same things as you did. As optimization rises, the sorcerer gains far more power than the dragon.

At the lowest levels, the dragon always wins, because low-level sorcerers are squishy. As levels and optimization potential rise, the sorcerer overtakes the dragon.

Of course, if the dragon is prepared, he might be able to have spells to counter the sorcerer, but he can't do much with his more limited number of spells.

A CR 20 Black Dragon, a wyrm, has only thirteenth level casting. There's a clear winner there, when the sorcerer has ninth level spells.


The sorcerer's advantage grows even larger if he can go into PrCs.

[Chronos]

The dragon definitely wins at low op, since it's really hard to screw up a dragon.

[Psyren]

The high-op Dragon eventually gets epic spells pre-epic (not to mention cleric casting) so it wins there as well.

[Urpriest]

The high-op Dragon eventually gets epic spells pre-epic (not to mention cleric casting) so it wins there as well.

Hmm...Black Wyrm casts as a Sorceror 13, but has 34 HD. Epic Spellcasting requires 9th level spells. Even with Loredrake and Spellhoarding, the best you're getting is 8th level spells, not enough to either take Epic Spellcasting or Improved Spell Capacity.

That said, we're neglecting multiclassing, PrCs, and the like. Can the Sorceror take PrCs? Can the Dragon take class levels?

A Wyrmling Black Dragon is CR 3 and has 4 HD. A Wyrmling Black Dragon Sorceror 4 is CR 5 and has 8 HD. So the Dragon optimized in this way would have one level lower casting but a lot of other benefits.

[Chronos]

A Wyrmling Black Dragon is CR 3 and has 4 HD. A Wyrmling Black Dragon Sorceror 4 is CR 5 and has 8 HD. So the Dragon optimized in this way would have one level lower casting but a lot of other benefits.
When a creature has racial spellcasting, the corresponding casting class always stacks with the racial spellcasting, and is always considered an associated class. So that dragon would have a CR of 7, not 5.

[Toliudar]

Also, consider that dragons get triple standard wealth to play with. Even if you consider that NPC wealth, they have a lot more toys, and the skill points to make use of them.

Until you get into the Adult/old age categories, I'd still give the advantage to the dragon in anything but the highest-op environments.

[Urpriest]

When a creature has racial spellcasting, the corresponding casting class always stacks with the racial spellcasting, and is always considered an associated class. So that dragon would have a CR of 7, not 5.

A Wyrmling Black Dragon has no racial spellcasting.

As to the wealth point, if we're assuming the Sorceror is a PC (since we're judging its ECL I assume that's what we're doing) then it's dramatically wealthier than the Dragon.

[Hurnn]

A Wyrmling Black Dragon has no racial spellcasting.

As to the wealth point, if we're assuming the Sorceror is a PC (since we're judging its ECL I assume that's what we're doing) then it's dramatically wealthier than the Dragon.

Maybe but you could roll stupid good on the treasure chart, and at 3x thats a lot of rolls.

[Bakkan]

Hmm...Black Wyrm casts as a Sorceror 13, but has 34 HD. Epic Spellcasting requires 9th level spells. Even with Loredrake and Spellhoarding, the best you're getting is 8th level spells, not enough to either take Epic Spellcasting or Improved Spell Capacity.


Would some combination of Earth Spell, Heighten Spell, and/or Versatile Spellcaster fix this and get him to 9ths?

[Urpriest]

Would some combination of Earth Spell, Heighten Spell, and/or Versatile Spellcaster fix this and get him to 9ths?

Hmm...it's about as dubious as other early-entry techniques, but sure, anything that's acceptable for early-entry should be acceptable for this, especially if you're dealing with a Spellhoarding Loredrake and thus 8ths.

Of course, at basically the same OP-level you're doing this earlier on a Dragonwrought Kobold for your Sorceror, so I'm not sure that really helps.

[ChaoticDitz]

Hmm...it's about as dubious as other early-entry techniques, but sure, anything that's acceptable for early-entry should be acceptable for this, especially if you're dealing with a Spellhoarding Loredrake and thus 8ths.

Of course, at basically the same OP-level you're doing this earlier on a Dragonwrought Kobold for your Sorceror, so I'm not sure that really helps.

Except the OP has only allowed PHB races and subspecies thereof, so this point is rather moot.