T.G. Oskar
2014-01-31, 03:29 AM
Alright, so while I was doing some stuff, a question came to mind, right for Fighter Friday: what if the Fighter had all (or nearly all) of its Alternate Class Features as actual class features, without having to replace anything?
Normally, the question would end there, but I decided to go a bit further and tabulate everything just to get an idea (and give you a better idea around it). For the exercise, I assumed the following:
First, not all ACFs and substitution levels are accounted for. Racial substitution levels (Drow, Dwarf, Half-Elf, Raptoran and Warforged) are not added, and neither does the Dragonscale Husk. Second, it's similar to the Gestalt effect: you get all the effects, and if one or two are essentially the same, they get replaced for the better options (this is specific to substitution levels like Thug). Third, class features will usually, but not always, appear at the level they're acquired. Fourth, the class features acquired are usually, if not always, exactly as written.
Thus, what's the result? You get a pretty weird class: full BAB, 4+Int skill points, 10d6 Sneak Attack, one favored enemy (specifically AGAINST Yochlols, nothing much), several new skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge [local], Knowledge [the Planes], Perform [dance] and Sleight of Hand) and a bunch of other class features. Of those, about two or three are static bonuses (+2 to Initiative checks, +2 on weapon damage rolls against extraplanar creatures, +2 dodge bonus to AC on attacks of opportunity, the bonuses from Dungeon Crasher), others are similar to Power Attack (Armor of God, Resolute) or add a stat to a roll (Dex to damage rolls), and some are activated when making a melee attack as a full-round action (Elusive Attack, Counterattack, Overwhelming Assault). As well, you get uses for your skills (Intimidate and Perform [dance] only, tho) and some supernatural abilities (Aligned Strike, Armor of God, Resolute, Aura of Stability). You also get the ability to use Dimensional Anchor on yourself pretty much at-will, which works well if you manage to grapple an opponent at it also suffers the effect. You still retain the feats (to be fair, you only miss about one feat in order to work the SA damage dice in so they weren't gained at the same level as the feats), so you can make just about any build.
With that: how do you think the Fighter fares now? Dungeon Crasher usually makes it get up a tier, but now it gets more skills (and higher skill points) and actual class features, not to mention a way to deal even MORE damage. Personally, it might not be enough to lift it to Tier 3 because the heavy lifting is done betweeen four ACFs/substitution levels (Thug gives more class skills, increased skill points/level and expands the bonus feat list; Dungeon Crasher adds the bonus to Strength in order to break objects and the trap sense-like effect; the feat-SA dice switch adds additional damage and Zhentarim Fighter makes Intimidate pretty useful, even though you get Bluff AND Diplomacy from it), though it might just be close to high Tier 4. You can do one thing pretty well (damage, since you get Dungeon Crasher when bull-rushing, Hit-and-Run Tactics + SA, or Overwhelming Assault), and do a few other things decently (Intimidate as a lasting coercion tactic, break open doors/walls/obstacles, fear for crowd control), but all of those are pretty specific.
Note: this isn't meant to serve as a Fighter Fix thread; it's only to address this curiosity, so please don't turn this into a "Fighter Fix ideas thread", mmkay? Stuff like build ideas with this are allowed, so as long as they don't devolve into actual fix ideas; virtually nothing short of a full revamp of the feat system will properly fix the Fighter, and even then it'll need something, but that's a topic for other threads. Measuring how useful it'd be in a typical adventuring campaign would also be interesting (Same Game Test it?).
Normally, the question would end there, but I decided to go a bit further and tabulate everything just to get an idea (and give you a better idea around it). For the exercise, I assumed the following:
First, not all ACFs and substitution levels are accounted for. Racial substitution levels (Drow, Dwarf, Half-Elf, Raptoran and Warforged) are not added, and neither does the Dragonscale Husk. Second, it's similar to the Gestalt effect: you get all the effects, and if one or two are essentially the same, they get replaced for the better options (this is specific to substitution levels like Thug). Third, class features will usually, but not always, appear at the level they're acquired. Fourth, the class features acquired are usually, if not always, exactly as written.
Thus, what's the result? You get a pretty weird class: full BAB, 4+Int skill points, 10d6 Sneak Attack, one favored enemy (specifically AGAINST Yochlols, nothing much), several new skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge [local], Knowledge [the Planes], Perform [dance] and Sleight of Hand) and a bunch of other class features. Of those, about two or three are static bonuses (+2 to Initiative checks, +2 on weapon damage rolls against extraplanar creatures, +2 dodge bonus to AC on attacks of opportunity, the bonuses from Dungeon Crasher), others are similar to Power Attack (Armor of God, Resolute) or add a stat to a roll (Dex to damage rolls), and some are activated when making a melee attack as a full-round action (Elusive Attack, Counterattack, Overwhelming Assault). As well, you get uses for your skills (Intimidate and Perform [dance] only, tho) and some supernatural abilities (Aligned Strike, Armor of God, Resolute, Aura of Stability). You also get the ability to use Dimensional Anchor on yourself pretty much at-will, which works well if you manage to grapple an opponent at it also suffers the effect. You still retain the feats (to be fair, you only miss about one feat in order to work the SA damage dice in so they weren't gained at the same level as the feats), so you can make just about any build.
With that: how do you think the Fighter fares now? Dungeon Crasher usually makes it get up a tier, but now it gets more skills (and higher skill points) and actual class features, not to mention a way to deal even MORE damage. Personally, it might not be enough to lift it to Tier 3 because the heavy lifting is done betweeen four ACFs/substitution levels (Thug gives more class skills, increased skill points/level and expands the bonus feat list; Dungeon Crasher adds the bonus to Strength in order to break objects and the trap sense-like effect; the feat-SA dice switch adds additional damage and Zhentarim Fighter makes Intimidate pretty useful, even though you get Bluff AND Diplomacy from it), though it might just be close to high Tier 4. You can do one thing pretty well (damage, since you get Dungeon Crasher when bull-rushing, Hit-and-Run Tactics + SA, or Overwhelming Assault), and do a few other things decently (Intimidate as a lasting coercion tactic, break open doors/walls/obstacles, fear for crowd control), but all of those are pretty specific.
Note: this isn't meant to serve as a Fighter Fix thread; it's only to address this curiosity, so please don't turn this into a "Fighter Fix ideas thread", mmkay? Stuff like build ideas with this are allowed, so as long as they don't devolve into actual fix ideas; virtually nothing short of a full revamp of the feat system will properly fix the Fighter, and even then it'll need something, but that's a topic for other threads. Measuring how useful it'd be in a typical adventuring campaign would also be interesting (Same Game Test it?).