Shilelagh Druid-Beastly Beatstick of Nature!

[Shadowdagger213]

So, the Archer Druid thing.... kinda lost interest....

Shilelagh has to be one of the best spells I've seen and I can't belive I almost missed it!

Wouldn't need to enchant one weapon, it lasts a while and topped with spikes... Good lord...:smallcool:

Now....at level 10 and with only 49,000gp, and still planning to craft armor, brew potions and possibly make wondrous items is it better to go armor, shield and club or quarterstaff and Monk's belt?

This build is mostly going to go with summoning and melee, since I'm not good at alternate stats for the wild shaping and combat, though I will do some for scouting and stealth and stuff.

So... quintessential robed Druid with a walking stick or vindicating defender of nature.....?

....and go!

[Shadowdagger213]

Sorry, forgot stats... 10TH LVL DRUID

Centering on Shilelagh and spikes for this build the stats will probably go like this... keep in mind this campaign is mostly outdoors, lots of potential animals so I'm thinking of keeping the charisma kind of high

STR 11, DEX 15(+1) = 16, CON 15, INT 15 WIS 17(+1) = 18 CHA 14

Low strength will be supplemented by bonus from spikes, damage from same, along with the shilelagh spell. I will also be enchanting a scimitar for burst damage (why not, might even "commision" having keen put on it")

So...sword/club and board or sagely old guy with a stick...that hurts.... a lot...?

[Darrin]

Elvencraft longbow = spiky beatstick and druid archer. You can do both.

[Eldariel]

I'd put all your level-ups in Wisdom given you replace Dex when you Wildshape anyways. As you asked in the other thread, it's easy enough to find forms like Dire Ape for nice stats to fight with (Dire Ape isn't the best stat-wise, but it's a biped that can use items). Hell, on this level you can stay Wildshaped all day.

In Core, you can of course use weapons under Wildshape (just pick it up after you've shifted); then you can use Ioun Stones and armor/shield with the Wild enhancement. So none of your crafting goes to waste.

[Grayson01]

Also if you don't wanna use Wildshape at all and are planning on focusing on Summing Check out the Druid Shifter Subbsitution levels in the races of Ebberon that might be a way to help boost your Summing and Stats forgiving up your Wildshape and Animal Comp.

[eggynack]

Also if you don't wanna use Wildshape at all and are planning on focusing on Summing Check out the Druid Shifter Subbsitution levels in the races of Ebberon that might be a way to help boost your Summing and Stats forgiving up your Wildshape and Animal Comp.
The first two levels of that are pretty great, but wild shifting is just about the worst thing. The way I like to think about it is, if they granted all day access to your traits, and allowed you to switch from your trait to any other trait as a free action, and later allowed you to use multiple traits at once, and maybe just tossed those size bonuses on at the first level of wild shifting, it would still be a really bad trade. Because there's just about nothing you can do with shifting that you can't do better with wild shape, and there's a bunch of stuff you can do with wild shape that you can't do with shifting.

As for general advice, shillelagh is definitely nifty, though it suffers a bit from having a short duration. Brambles has an even shorter duration, and generally does less stuff. You may want to look into entangling staff (SpC, 83), because it's reasonably strong and fits with what you're doing, and in a level you should start using spellstaff, because it uses a staff and is awesome. As for item use, I'd go with the monk's belt. It has no maximum dex bonus, for your higher dexterity animal forms, it stacks with luminous armor (BoED, 102), if you have access to it, and it probably gives more AC and costs less. You definitely don't want a shield, because you should be two handing the staff.

Edit: Also, for summoning, the best option at 10th level is probably rashemi elemental summoning (UE, 45), which you can pick up at 9th level. It can basically turn all of your elemental summons into highly efficient blasting spells that are also highly efficient summons in their own right. Cool stuff. Shifter is a notable race because it has a bunch of strong summoning boosters, and because it effectively grants racial bonuses to strength or dexterity that stack with wild shape, both through shifter traits, and through beast spirit. Might be worthwhile for both aspects of your build on that basis.

[Shadowdagger213]

Thanks for all the quick responses, even from those I thought I pissed off...

This is still core plus Completes so I don't have access to a lot of UA or Eberron at all...

Elvencraft bow, it can be used as a quarterstaff but can I use Shilelagh on it?

Not banning shape shifting completely, just not efficient at shifting my brain from one to the next.

And only having five feats I chose cma&a, craft wondrous, scribe scroll endurance and have one open.

So staff fighting is a la Killik from Soul Calibur, with Wild Wildwood chain shirt and Druid Vestments (because they look good! :p )

[Shadowdagger213]

OH, forgot....

my feats go this way:

Human Bonus - Endurance
1st - Scribe Scroll
3rd - Intuitive Attack
6th - Craft Wondrous
9th - CMA&A

Although up in the air between scribe scroll and brew potion...

There's an "alternate delivery system" of some sort in Complete Mage where your potions can be fruit slices or breakable tiles, and your scrolls can be incendiaries (poof...elemental)

I'd do both, but I couldn't have Intuitive Attack, which I need, and Endurance is so I don't have to cast Lesser Restoration every morning, or spend that time just getting dressed in armor, open for ambush....

... or am I overthinking that part?

[eggynack]

Before taking intuitive attack, you should likely consider whether you should take intuitive attack. It looks really good, because you will inevitably have high wisdom, but a second inevitability is that you will have high strength, cause wild shape. Like, if you spend all of your time as a dire ape, that's 22 strength right there, so you'd need 24 wisdom for intuitive attack to be weapon focus. Picking up a +4 item on your 18 wisdom base would get you value neutral with respect to not having the feat at all. As for endurance, you almost certainly are over thinking this situation. Being ambushed without armor is a lot like being ambushed with armor, and spending a feat for a free casting of lesser restoration every day is a bad proposition. You should probably take not that.

[Phelix-Mu]

A few hints that I hope may prove helpful:

1.) I think eggy already mentioned this in another thread, but brambles/spikes from Spell Compendium stacks well with shillelagh (pronounced shi-lay-lee), but brambles and spikes don't stack particularly well with each other. If you can get some help from someone with UMD or sor/wiz spells, then mighty wallop and greater mighty wallop (Races of the Dragon) are massive damage boosts for those wielding bludgeoning weapons. Finally, I believe there is a spell called earth hammer in Races of Stone. It may even be a druid spell, can't recall. Anyway, it's useful if you are fighting things with DR/adamantine and still want to be doing melee.

2.) If you really won't be using wild shape to its full potential, then I'd advise finding something you will use. Dragon Aspect ACF, from Dragon Magic, is strictly inferior, but has the benefit of boosting stats without altering form, granting flight and some other useful tidbits. It's also fairly versatile, although nowhere near the level of wild shape. An understanding DM may even allow you to whitewash the dragon flavor, if that aspect isn't meshing with your character concept.

3.) A good idea while solidifying feats and build choices is to beef up your character concept. How did this druid learn to be a druid? Does his/her propensity for beating things down in person come from some specific school of thought or personal experience? Are you going for monk-like calmness in the midst of battle, or spittle-propelling machine of destruction?

4.) Make sure the DM is going to allow you plenty of time/space to do crafting before you devote so many resources to being good at it. I know that, in some of my campaigns that have built in time pressures, there is almost no downtime to speak of, barely time to scribe scrolls or brew potions, let alone bigger endeavors.

5.) Rather a bit of side-note, but I have long wanted to make a build that integrated Imbue Staff and the one other feat that gives Wisdom to damage with the staff from that same Dragon article. This would probably only work on some kind of druid/wizard/Arcane Hierophant, but it would be cool.

[Metahuman1]

You know, you can take a dip of Shiba protector and pick up Intuitive Strike from Oriental Adventures/book of exulted deeds respectively, and run almost completely on Wis and Con. Just a thought.

Also, You absolutely want greater mighty wallop. Quarter staff if your not gonna go 2 hand, if you are, just use a club.

[Piggy Knowles]

I still prefer a quarterstaff to a club when going two-handed. More slots for wand chambers, you can make it a spellstaff, and you can use spells like entangling staff with it.

[eggynack]

1.) I think eggy already mentioned this in another thread, but brambles/spikes from Spell Compendium stacks well with shillelagh (pronounced shi-lay-lee), but brambles and spikes don't stack particularly well with each other. If you can get some help from someone with UMD or sor/wiz spells, then mighty wallop and greater mighty wallop (Races of the Dragon) are massive damage boosts for those wielding bludgeoning weapons. Finally, I believe there is a spell called earth hammer in Races of Stone. It may even be a druid spell, can't recall. Anyway, it's useful if you are fighting things with DR/adamantine and still want to be doing melee.
I would have, had I known, but I didn't, so I probably wouldn't have. On a separate and related note, both spikes and brambles just seem kinda mediocre to me. Short duration, low impact, and they stack with nothing. As for earth hammer, it's cleric/paladin, and the rounds/level duration makes it a bit awkward for team buffing.


2.) If you really won't be using wild shape to its full potential, then I'd advise finding something you will use. Dragon Aspect ACF, from Dragon Magic, is strictly inferior, but has the benefit of boosting stats without altering form, granting flight and some other useful tidbits. It's also fairly versatile, although nowhere near the level of wild shape. An understanding DM may even allow you to whitewash the dragon flavor, if that aspect isn't meshing with your character concept.
Yeah, pretty much every wild shape substitution is horrible, but aspect of the dragon is at least marginally less horrible than all the other options. I mean, mind of the dragon at least grants an untyped wisdom bonus, and the breath weapon isn't really common on the wild shape front, so the abilities are at least not strictly overlapping with wild shape stuff (or spell stuff) that does it better. I'd give it a pretty bad out of 10, which puts it head and shoulders over all of the other options that rate as completely horrible and unsalvageable.

Edit: Seriously, I think that some of these wild shape trades might be so bad that they've influenced people into thinking that all druid ACF's are bad by association. That's how bad shapeshift is.

[Gavinfoxx]

If I am playing a level 4 or under Druid that for some reason has a bunch of money, I like, say, a +1 Bronzewood Scimitar or something, and Brambles/Spikes it.

[Piggy Knowles]

On a separate and related note, both spikes and brambles just seem kinda mediocre to me. Short duration, low impact, and they stack with nothing.

:smalleek: I was about to point out that this isn't true, and that while brambles is only one round per level, spikes is an hour per level. But apparently the Spell Compendium version eliminated the increased duration for some reason. (The Complete Divine and Defenders of the Faith versions both increased the duration to 1 hour/level.)

Dang, but I've been using this one wrong for ages. I just assumed that it kept the same duration increase as it had in its previous two appearances.

[eggynack]

If I am playing a level 4 or under Druid that for some reason has a bunch of money, I like, say, a +1 Bronzewood Scimitar or something, and Brambles/Spikes it.
I don't really get this. The attack bonus from the weapon overlaps with the attack bonus from the scimitar, and the rest of the effect is +3 damage, as one of the +1's was already there. So, that's an entire turn for weapon weapon specialization +1 I guess. And then you're casting spikes, which is only a +1 to hit, and the rest is a decent boost to threat range. It just seems like a lot of turns of nothing, is my issue, especially when these are combat rounds where you could be, y'know, hitting folks. Or casting real spells. Shillelagh is cool, cause it's basically brambles out of a lower level slot for a greater duration, but these other options are pretty mediocre.


:smalleek: I was about to point out that this isn't true, and that while brambles is only one round per level, spikes is an hour per level. But apparently the Spell Compendium version eliminated the increased duration for some reason. (The Complete Divine and Defenders of the Faith versions both increased the duration to 1 hour/level.)
Huh. So it was. They nerfed a lot of weird stuff in the spell compendium.

[Grayson01]

The first two levels of that are pretty great, but wild shifting is just about the worst thing. The way I like to think about it is, if they granted all day access to your traits, and allowed you to switch from your trait to any other trait as a free action, and later allowed you to use multiple traits at once, and maybe just tossed those size bonuses on at the first level of wild shifting, it would still be a really bad trade. Because there's just about nothing you can do with shifting that you can't do better with wild shape, and there's a bunch of stuff you can do with wild shape that you can't do with shifting.



Oh I completly agree WIld Shape is completely better then the Alternative. But if you don't plan on using WIldShap it's an Option I just said check it out.

[eggynack]

Oh I completly agree WIld Shape is completely better then the Alternative. But if you don't plan on using WIldShap it's an Option I just said check it out.
I guess. My two problems with that are that it's one of the worse abilities you can get through wild shape, which is really saying something, and that it's counterproductive when you consider the fact that shifter traits were only ever meaningful on a druid in the first place because of the ways it stacked with wild shape. Also because of dreamsight, because dreamsight is the best, but dreamsight doesn't even work that well with wild shifting.

Anyways, my advice would be keeping track of only a few forms which are particularly relevant. That probably means some ape form, as the primary wielder of sticks, some flight form, because flight is important, and maybe some form for burrowing and swimming, because those are also occasionally important. You won't really hit the maximum level of wild shape power, but the not-maximum of wild shape power is still generally higher than the maximum of not-wild shape power.

[Shadowdagger213]

The character is backstoried as kind of a "Part time" adventurer. He's only level 10, but he's 34 years old (1 year shy of "Middle aged") so he has had a lot of downtime between adventures to be able to craft a LOT of things, especially with the scribing and or brewing of things.

Good point on the Endurance thing, where he could have prepared a few Potions or Scrolls to that effect and just uses them on Adventuring mornings if he had to sleep in armor.

And again, not giving up on wild shape, just probably not going to do a lot of it, you will notice the lack of Natural Spell. I'm ok with that. I like the idea of needing a spell that I wished I could have back after casting it, reaching into my Belt of Hidden Pouches and pulling out a scroll or potion, a la Batman (No wizard comments, this is my poetic license here!)

A Druid utility belt could have Elemental Gems, which I would be able to make as well. Out of 4th and 5th level spells and need a big gun? Bam, Fire elemental....need a storm on a sunny day so you can cast Call Lightning? Bam... Air Elemental...


I hate being unprepared.

But no on Intuitive attack? +4 to hit is better than +2 I would think with my stats...?

[eggynack]

But no on Intuitive attack? +4 to hit is better than +2 I would think with my stats...?
Well, +4 is better than +2, but if you're a beat stick animal then your new strength mod is probably equal to or better than your wisdom mod, because animals have a high strength. For example, as a dire ape you will have a +6 strength modifier. I didn't notice the lack of natural spell, probably because I just assume that every druid build has it without even checking, so maybe trade intuitive attack for that. It makes things run smooth. Also, separately, even without wild shape a +2 to attack is probably not worth a feat.