[3.5] [Build] This Hand of Mine Glows...

[Red Fel]

... with an Eldritch Power (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Anime/MobileFighterGGundam).

Hello, kids! It's time for another build thread! This time, I am pleased to announce a gestalt build! Chairman Koji, what is today's secret ingredient?

Today's ingredient is... Clawlock-uru!

Thank you Chairman Koji. Yes, today we will be designing a Wuxia-style Clawlock. The goal is to create an unarmed fighter with battlefield control and glowing fists of death.

Here, as always, are the rules. Sources: 3.5 and 3.0. No PF. No third party. Dragon Magazine provisionally permitted. (Obviously, as it's the source of the Eldritch Claws feat.) Classes, Side 1: Warlock, Binder, and Hellfire Warlock. Classes, Side 2: Martial stuff. Monk and Shou Disciple, or ToB classes, or Thayan Gladiator, or Warshaper. Stuff that comfortably augments Eldritch Claws and unarmed strikes. Please explain your choices. Races: Hengeyokai (if going Warshaper route) or Warforged preferred. Alignment: CG or LE. Levels: Any non-epic. Templates: Permitted, but no LA. No Dark Chaos Shuffle or similar levels of cheese. Please also suggest Invocations/Maneuvers/etc.
Yes, I've read the warlock handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252715) and the melee warlock handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159708). But neither covered gestalting. I am also aware that unlike a Glaivelock, a Clawlock does not target touch AC, but regular AC. Don't care.

And while I know some of the basics of gestalt (active/passive dichotomy, max your saves and BAB, complementary ability scores), this is my first gestalt build, so I could really use the advice. Fortunately, Warlock is a class that isn't stat-centric (unless you plan to trigger saves), so I think it makes a reasonable gestalt.

Pick up your pencils... And begin!



Special thanks to XmonkTad for this build, which combines a Cleric's buffs, a Monk's beef, and a Warlock's blasty. Due to the annoyance of throwing nine more columns into an already elaborate table, I decided against listing cleric spells per day. Please note that Sacred Fist gives 8/10 Cleric advancement. Note also that despite the name, Sacred Fist does not require a Good alignment, so my LE build still works.

Zan, LE Race Warlock//Monk/Cleric:

{table=head]{colsp=1}Level|{colsp=1}Class 1|{colsp=1}Class 2|{colsp=1}
BAB|{colsp=1}
Fort|{colsp=1}
Ref|{colsp=1}
Will|{colsp=1}Special|{colsp=1}Invocations Known|{colsp=1}Unarmed Damage|{colsp=1}Feat

1|Warlock 1|Monk 1|+0|+2|+2|+2|Eldritch Blast 1d6, Invocation (least), Bonus Feat (Monk), Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike|1|1d6|Combat Casting, Stunning Fist (Monk)

2|Warlock 2|Monk 2|+1|+3|+3|+3|Detect Magic, Bonus Feat (Monk), Evasion|2|1d6|Combat Reflexes (Monk)

3|Warlock 3|Monk 2/ Cleric 1|+2|+5|+4|+5|DR 1/cold iron, Eldritch Blast 2d6, Rebuke Undead|2|1d6|Eldritch Claws

4|Warlock 4|Monk 2/ Cleric 2|+3|+6|+4|+6|Deceive Item|3|1d6|

5|Warlock 5|Monk 2/ Cleric 3|+4|+6|+5|+6|Eldritch Blast 3d6|3|1d6|

6|Warlock 6|Monk 2/ Cleric 4|+5|+7|+6|+7|New Invocation (least or lesser)|4|1d6|Sun School

7|Warlock 7|Monk 2/ Cleric 4/ Sacred Fist 1|+6|+9|+8|+7|DR 2/cold iron, Eldritch Blast 4d6, Unarmed Damage|4|1d6|

8|Warlock 8|Monk 2/ Cleric 4/ Sacred Fist 2|+7|+10|+9|+8|Fiendish Resilience|5|1d8|

9|Warlock 9|Monk 2/ Cleric 4/ Sacred Fist 3|+8|+11|+10|+9|Eldritch Blast 5d6|5|1d8|Superior Unarmed Strike

10|Warlock 10|Monk 2/ Cleric 4/ Sacred Fist 4|+9|+12|+11|+10|Energy Resistance 5, Sacred Flames 1/day|6|1d8|

11|Warlock 11|Monk 2/ Cleric 4/ Sacred Fist 5|+10|+12|+11|+10|DR 3/cold iron, Eldritch Blast 6d6, New Invocation (least, lesser or greater)|7|1d8|

12|Warlock 12|Monk 2/ Cleric 4/ Sacred Fist 6|+11|+13|+12|+11|Imbue Item, Blindsense 10 ft.|7|1d10|Feat Undecided

13|Warlock 13|Monk 2/ Cleric 4/ Sacred Fist 7|+12|+13|+12|+11|Fiendish Resilience 2|8|1d10|

14|Warlock 14|Monk 2/ Cleric 4/ Sacred Fist 8|+13|+14|+13|+12|Eldritch Blast 7d6, Sacred Flames 2/day|8|1d10|

15|Warlock 15|Monk 2/ Cleric 4/ Sacred Fist 9|+14|+15|+14|+12|DR 4/cold iron|9|1d10|Feat Undecided

16|Warlock 16|Monk 2/ Cleric 4/ Sacred Fist 10|+15|+16|+15|+13|New Invocation (least, lesser, greater, or dark), Inner Armor|10|2d6|

17|Warlock 16/ Binder 1|Monk 2/ Cleric 5/ Sacred Fist 10|+15|+18|+15|+15|Soul Binding (1 vestige)|10|2d6|

18|Warlock 16/ Binder 1/ Hellfire Warlock 1|Monk 2/ Cleric 6/ Sacred Fist 10|+16|+19|+15|+17|Hellfire Blast +2d6, Eldritch Blast 8d6|10|2d6|Feat Undecided

19|Warlock 16/ Binder 1/ Hellfire Warlock 2|Monk 2/ Cleric 7/ Sacred Fist 10|+17|+20|+16|+18|Hellfire Blast +4d6, Hellfire Infusion, Fire Resistance 10|11|2d6|

20|Warlock 16/ Binder 1/ Hellfire Warlock 3|Monk 2/ Cleric 8/ Sacred Fist 10|+18|+21|+17|+19|Hellfire Blast +6d6, Hellfire Shield|11|2d6|
[/table]

Special thanks to George Smith for this build, which uses a Crinti Shadow Marauder for Shadow Pounce. The Swordsage listed here is the Unarmed Swordsage adaptation. For clarification, this means that the Swordsage listed loses his light armor proficiency, but gains Improved Unarmed Strike and the unarmed strike damage of a Monk of his Swordsage level.

Zan, LE Warforged Warlock//Swordsage/Crinti

{table=head]{colsp=1}Level|{colsp=1}Class 1|{colsp=1}Class 2|{colsp=1}
BAB|{colsp=1}
Fort|{colsp=1}
Ref|{colsp=1}
Will|{colsp=1}Special|{colsp=1}Invocations Known|{colsp=1}Unarmed Damage|{colsp=1}Feat

1|Warlock 1|Binder 1|+0|+2|+0|+2|Eldritch Blast 1d6, Invocation (least), Soul Binding (1 vestige)|1|-|Stealthy

2|Warlock 2|Binder 1/ Swordsage 1|+1|+2|+2|+4|Detect Magic, Quick to Act +1, Discipline Focus (Tiger Claw, weapon focus)|2|1d6|

3|Warlock 3|Binder 1/ Swordsage 2|+2|+3|+3|+5|DR 1/cold iron, Eldritch Blast 2d6, AC Bonus|2|1d6|Eldritch Claws

4|Warlock 4|Binder 1/ Swordsage 3|+3|+4|+3|+6|Deceive Item|3|1d6|

5|Warlock 5|Binder 1/ Swordsage 4|+4|+4|+4|+7|Eldritch Blast 3d6, Discipline Focus (DISCIPLINE, insightful strike)|3|1d8|

6|Warlock 6|Binder 1/ Swordsage 4/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 1|+5|+5|+5|+8|New Invocation (least or lesser), Shadow Ride|4|1d8|Mounted Combat

7|Warlock 7|Binder 1/ Swordsage 4/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 2|+6|+5|+6|+8|DR 2/cold iron, Eldritch Blast 4d6, Sudden Strike +1d6|4|1d8|

8|Warlock 8|Binder 1/ Swordsage 4/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 3|+7|+6|+6|+9|Fiendish Resilience, Bonus Feat (Crinti), Shadow Walk|5|1d8|Bonus Feat Undecided

9|Warlock 9|Binder 1/ Swordsage 4/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 4|+8|+7|+7|+9|Eldritch Blast 5d6, Sudden Strike +2d6|5|1d8|Feat Undecided

10|Warlock 10|Binder 1/ Swordsage 4/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 5|+9|+7|+7|+10|Energy Resistance 5, Shadow Pounce|6|1d8|

11|Warlock 10/ Hellfire Warlock 1|Binder 1/ Swordsage 5/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 5|+9|+7|+7|+12|Hellfire Blast +2d6, Eldritch Blast 6d6, Quick to Act +2|7|1d8|

12|Warlock 10/ Hellfire Warlock 2|Binder 1/ Swordsage 6/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 5|+10|+8|+8|+13|Hellfire Blast +4d6, Hellfire Infusion, Fire Resistance 10|7|1d8|Feat Undecided

13|Warlock 10/ Hellfire Warlock 3|Binder 1/ Swordsage 7/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 5|+11|+9|+9|+13|Hellfire Blast +6d6, Hellfire Shield, Sense Magic|8|1d8|

14|Warlock 11/ Hellfire Warlock 3|Binder 1/ Swordsage 8/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 5|+12|+9|+10|+14|DR 3/cold iron, Eldritch Blast 7d6, New Invocation (least, lesser or greater), Discipline Focus (DISCIPLINE, defensive stance)|8|1d10|

15|Warlock 12/ Hellfire Warlock 3|Binder 1/ Swordsage 9/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 5|+13|+10|+11|+15|Imbue Item, Evasion|9|1d10|Feat Undecided

16|Warlock 13/ Hellfire Warlock 3|Binder 1/ Swordsage 10/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 5|+14|+10|+12|+16|Fiendish Resilience 2, Quick to Act +3|10|1d10|

17|Warlock 14/ Hellfire Warlock 3|Binder 1/ Swordsage 11/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 5|+15|+10|+12|+17|Eldritch Blast 8d6|10|1d10|

18|Warlock 15/ Hellfire Warlock 3|Binder 1/ Swordsage 12/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 5|+16|+11|+13|+18|DR 4/cold iron, Discipline Focus (DISCIPLINE, insightful strike)|11|2d6|Feat Undecided

19|Warlock 16/ Hellfire Warlock 3|Binder 1/ Swordsage 13/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 5|+17|+11|+13|+19|New Invocation (least, lesser, greater, or dark)|11|2d6|

20|Warlock 17/ Hellfire Warlock 3|Binder 1/ Swordsage 14/ Crinti Shadow Marauder 5|+17|+11|+14|+20|Eldritch Blast 9d6|12|2d6|
[/table]


Special thanks to Vanitas for this build, which uses Warlock, Hellfire Warlock, and Enlightened Spirit, alongside Fighter and Shou Disciple, to maximize BAB and Eldritch Blast damage. Because it doesn't involve Monk, it doesn't require a Lawful alignment, which means this is the only build that can play Chaotic Good! (And it has to, because of Enlightened Spirit.)

Zan, CG Race Warlock//Fighter/Shou Disciple

{table=head]{colsp=1}Level|{colsp=1}Class 1|{colsp=1}Class 2|{colsp=1}
BAB|{colsp=1}
Fort|{colsp=1}
Ref|{colsp=1}
Will|{colsp=1}Special|{colsp=1}Invocations Known|{colsp=1}Feat

1|Warlock 1|Fighter 1|+1|+2|+0|+2|Eldritch Blast 1d6, Invocation (least), Bonus Feat (Fighter)|1|Combat Casting, Improved Unarmed Strike (Fighter)

2|Warlock 2|Fighter 2|+2|+3|+0|+3|Detect Magic, Bonus Feat (Fighter)|2|Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) (Fighter)

3|Warlock 3|Fighter 3|+3|+4|+1|+4|DR 1/cold iron, Eldritch Blast 2d6|2|Eldritch Claws

4|Warlock 4|Fighter 4|+4|+5|+1|+5|Deceive Item, Bonus Feat (Fighter)|3|Dodge (Fighter)

5|Warlock 5|Fighter 5|+5|+5|+1|+5|Eldritch Blast 3d6|3|

6|Warlock 6|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 1|+6|+6|+2|+6|New Invocation (least or lesser), Aura of Courage, Aura of Menace, Spirit Blast|4|Feat Undecided

7|Warlock 7|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 2|+7|+6|+2|+7|DR 2/cold iron, Eldritch Blast 4d6, Eldritch Blast +1d6, Spirit Armor (+1 AC)|4|

8|Warlock 8|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 3|+8|+7|+3|+8|Fiendish Resilience, Celestial Flight|5|

9|Warlock 9|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 4|+9|+8|+4|+9|Eldritch Blast 4d6, Eldritch Blast +2d6, Tongues|5|Feat Undecided

10|Warlock 10|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 5|+10|+8|+4|+10|Energy Resistance 5, Shape Invocation, Energy Resistance 5|6|

11|Warlock 11|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 6|+11|+9|+5|+11|DR 3/cold iron, Eldritch Blast 6d6, New Invocation (least, lesser or greater), Eldritch Blast +3d6, Spirit Armor (+2 AC)|7|

12|Warlock 12|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 7|+12|+10|+6|+12|Imbue Item, Holy Blast|7|Feat Undecided

13|Warlock 13|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 8|+13|+10|+6|+13|Fiending Resilience, Eldritch Blast +4d6|8|

14|Warlock 14|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 9|+14|+11|+7|+14|Eldritch Blast 7d6, Transform Magic|8|

15|Warlock 15|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10|+15|+12|+8|+15|DR 4/cold iron, Eldritch Blast +5d6, Death Ward, Spirit Armor (+3 AC)|9|Feat Undecided

16|Warlock 16|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Shou Disciple 1|+16|+14|+10|+16|New Invocation (least, lesser, greater, or dark), 1d6 unarmed damage|10|

17|Warlock 16/ Binder 1|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Shou Disciple 2|+17|+16|+11|+18|Soul Binding (1 vestige), 1d8 unarmed damage, Bonus Feat (Shou)|10|Shou Feat Undecided

18|Warlock 16/ Binder 1/ Hellfire Warlock 1|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Shou Disciple 3|+18|+16|+11|+20|Hellfire Blast +2d6, Eldritch Blast 8d6, 1d10 unarmed damage, Martial Flurry (light)|10|Feat Undecided

19|Warlock 16/ Binder 1/ Hellfire Warlock 2|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Shou Disciple 4|+19|+17|+12|+21|Hellfire Blast +4d6, Hellfire Infusion, Fire Resistance 10, 1d10 unarmed damage, Bonus Feat (Shou)|11|Shou Feat Undecided

20|Warlock 16/ Binder 1/ Hellfire Warlock 3|Fighter 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Shou Disciple 5|+20|+18|+13|+21|Hellfire Blast +6d6, Hellfire Shield, 2d6 unarmed damage, Martial Flurry (any)|11|
[/table]


Builds are up! Critiques are welcomed!

[Snowbluff]

Hellfire Warlock doesn't work with Clawlock as far as I can tell. Protip for everyone doing this, the best results would be combing the Eldritch Claws with Beast Strike to deal double unarmed dice, then grabbing an Unarmed Progression with Greater Mighty Wallop.

[Red Fel]

Hellfire Warlock doesn't work with Clawlock as far as I can tell. Protip for everyone doing this, the best results would be combing the Eldritch Claws with Beast Strike to deal double unarmed dice, then grabbing an Unarmed Progression with Greater Mighty Wallop.

I thought it did. Eldritch Claws still counts as an Eldritch Blast, and by its text delivers "your normal amount of unarmed strike damage plus your eldritch blast damage." Hellfire Blast, which "[w]henever you use your eldritch blast ability," "deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level." In other words, it juices your ordinary Eldritch Blast - which is in claw form, thanks to the feat. Further, the Hellfire Shield ability is very useful in melee, which is where a Clawlock tends to spend his time.

I do agree with your Beast Strike suggestion, and the Martial half of the gestalt should probably have an unarmed progression. I think I might end up designing two different builds - one for Monk-and-Monk-PrCs for unarmed progression, and one for classes-with-unarmed-abilities-that-aren't-Monk. But time will tell.

[KorbeltheReader]

This hand of mine glows ... with an eldritch power.

Worst pickup line ever.

[Red Fel]

Worst pickup line ever.

Worse than "The doctor gave me a clean bill of health?"

And let's try to avoid any rude "Shining Finger" euphemisms while we're at it, shall we?

Ahem. So. The build? Ideas?

[Snowbluff]

Illumian Warlock20//Monk1/Sorcerer1/Monk+1/EnlightenedFist10/SomethingCasting

The last seven levels can include Sacred Exorcist to use Naen Hoon for Persistent spell. Use Flaws for persistent spell and extend spell.

Enlightened Fist only requires caster level 3, so Warlock supplies the CL just fine.

1: Combat Casting
3: Eldritch Claws
6: Beast Strike
9: Ascetic Monk (Cha to AC)
12: Practiced Spellcaster
15: Quicken Spell-like

Snap Kick and Superior Unarmed Strike should fit in somewhere.

Sigils:
Aesh (Mixes with Krau so you can focus on Str for buffing spell slots)
Krau (For +2 CL)
Naen
Hoon


Some suggested tems:
Might Arms (Use Battle Fist)
Battle Fist (+1 monk damage size)
Monk Belt (+5 Monk stuff)
Fang Ring (Imp Nat Attack)
Necklace of Natural Attacks
Skin of Proteus (If you are not polymorphing yourself into something bigger)
Chasuble of Fell Power

[Red Fel]

All right, now we're talking!


Illumian Warlock20//Monk1/Sorcerer1/Monk+1/EnlightenedFist10/SomethingCasting

The last seven levels can include Sacred Exorcist to use Naen Hoon for Persistent spell. Use Flaws for persistent spell and extend spell.

Enlightened Fist only requires caster level 3, so Warlock supplies the CL just fine.

Okay. So one side of the gestalt is pure Warlock, I can dig it. Let's look at the other.

Monk 1, and I take Stunning Fist at that level so I can take EF later. Sorcerer, because... Spells, I guess? Or are there particular buffs I want from Sorc? Monk 2, and I'm guessing Combat Reflexes as my bonus, plus my US progression. Problem: A Monk who multiclasses out of Monk can't advance as Monk again. Maybe Monk 2/ Sorc 1/ etc. instead?

Now, since one side is going Warlock all the way up to 20, am I to assume that EF is advancing Sorcerer? Because that would give me 9th-level Sorcerer casting (up to 4th-level spells) at the end of EF. Also, EF gives me magic fists, which is nice, Monk progression, which is nice too, bonus damage, touch spells, and SR - all very nice.

Now, as for Sacred Exorcist... We have a problem. Sacred Exorcist requires Good. Monk requires Lawful. Warlock requires Chaotic or Evil. Unless I use some sort of Chaos Monk variant, this is a problem. That said, Sacred Exorcist gets caster progression, which is nice, but the rest of the class abilities don't wow me, honestly.

I just don't see it as more than a caster-advancing class, but yeah, I guess I could fill in something else, maybe more Sorc or somesuch.


1: Combat Casting
3: Eldritch Claws
6: Beast Strike
9: Ascetic Monk (Cha to AC)
12: Practiced Spellcaster
15: Quicken Spell-like

Snap Kick and Superior Unarmed Strike should fit in somewhere.


Interesting. I get the prereqs for EF, those make sense; I get Claws and Beast Strike, they're basically mandatory. Ascetic Mage... Hmm. Charisma to AC is nice, and cuts down on my MAD. I can dig it. Practiced Spellcaster patches up the hole in my caster level caused by multiple levels of Monk/EF, which is smart. And Quicken Spell-like for my EBs, good sense there.

And I agree on Snap Kick and SUS. That's just good sense.


Sigils:
Aesh (Mixes with Krau so you can focus on Str for buffing spell slots)
Krau (For +2 CL)
Naen
Hoon

Okay. Having not played an Illumian, I'm going to have to figure this out, but maybe you can help me out. I like Krau, definitely. Aesh makes sense, since this is also a melee build. Not sure how Naen and Hoon play out, though. They give me Persistent Spell? Is that why I'm taking Sorc casting, for buffs?


Some suggested tems:
Might Arms (Use Battle Fist)
Battle Fist (+1 monk damage size)
Monk Belt (+5 Monk stuff)
Fang Ring (Imp Nat Attack)
Necklace of Natural Attacks
Skin of Proteus (If you are not polymorphing yourself into something bigger)
Chasuble of Fell Power

Okay. Might Arms is a construct graft, right? I'm able to take that? (Because that's awesome.) But does Battlefist work the way you say it does? As I recall, it increases a Warforged slam attack to 1d8. I don't know if that's the same as increasing unarmed strike die size, is it?

Monk Belt is just good sense, as is Fang Ring and NoNA, I agree. And Skin of Proteus... That's just brokenly delicious. And the Chasuble is awesome, both for the Warlock and the Sorc aspects.

Overall, I like the design. My concern is that it's too spellcaster-y and not enough face-punch-y. Having the diversity of Sorc casting on top of my Warlock invocations is nice, and all, but if I plan to be in combat melting skulls with my burning claws of diabolical fury, I won't have as much time for spellcasting, unless I just plan to buff like mad. How do you see this build playing?

[Snowbluff]

All right, now we're talking!

Okay. So one side of the gestalt is pure Warlock, I can dig it. Let's look at the other. Warlock 13 gets item creation stuff. A crafting feat might be valuable as well.


Monk 1, and I take Stunning Fist at that level so I can take EF later. Sorcerer, because... Spells, I guess? Or are there particular buffs I want from Sorc? Monk 2, and I'm guessing Combat Reflexes as my bonus, plus my US progression. Problem: A Monk who multiclasses out of Monk can't advance as Monk again. Maybe Monk 2/ Sorc 1/ etc. instead?
This was done from memory, sorry. Drop the second monk level, since level 1 gives stunning fist. You can multiclass with Sorcerer freely with Ascetic Mage, and PrCs are weird about multiclassing. Enlightened Fist doesn't have multiclassing penalties for monk.

Now, since one side is going Warlock all the way up to 20, am I to assume that EF is advancing Sorcerer? Because that would give me 9th-level Sorcerer casting (up to 4th-level spells) at the end of EF. Also, EF gives me magic fists, which is nice, Monk progression, which is nice too, bonus damage, touch spells, and SR - all very nice.
Oh yeah.

Now, as for Sacred Exorcist... We have a problem. Sacred Exorcist requires Good. Monk requires Lawful. Warlock requires Chaotic or Evil. Unless I use some sort of Chaos Monk variant, this is a problem. That said, Sacred Exorcist gets caster progression, which is nice, but the rest of the class abilities don't wow me, honestly.
Pop quiz! What's happens to a nonlawful monk? You can put a level of something, like the Binder dip, if being a Warlock and Monk at first level doesn't work.




Interesting. I get the prereqs for EF, those make sense; I get Claws and Beast Strike, they're basically mandatory. Ascetic Mage... Hmm. Charisma to AC is nice, and cuts down on my MAD. I can dig it. Practiced Spellcaster patches up the hole in my caster level caused by multiple levels of Monk/EF, which is smart. And Quicken Spell-like for my EBs, good sense there.

And I agree on Snap Kick and SUS. That's just good sense.
Practiced spellcast might now be necessary with your sigils.




Okay. Might Arms is a construct graft, right? I'm able to take that? (Because that's awesome.) But does Battlefist work the way you say it does? As I recall, it increases a Warforged slam attack to 1d8. I don't know if that's the same as increasing unarmed strike die size, is it?
Mighty Arms is a construct graft from MoE, and lets you use Battlefist.

Battlefist and the Necklace should both have a different array of enhancements on them, if the DM agree the fist provides enhancements other than a flat bonus to unarmed strikes. A defending battle fist might be handy, as well as other non-offensive abilities. A wounding collision impact necklace would be the sort of necklace you'll use


Overall, I like the design. My concern is that it's too spellcaster-y and not enough face-punch-y. Having the diversity of Sorc casting on top of my Warlock invocations is nice, and all, but if I plan to be in combat melting skulls with my burning claws of diabolical fury, I won't have as much time for spellcasting, unless I just plan to buff like mad. How do you see this build playing?It's mostly buffing.
At the start of my start, I cast Great Might Wallop (Hour per level, makes fist collosal), Greater Magic Weapon (on Defending Battle Fist, and yourself, hour per level), Bite of the Werebear (persisted with Naenhoon), Great Mirror Image (Also persisted via Naenhoon), Persistent Wraithstrike, Superior Invisibility (Hour per level), Superior Resistance (24 hours), Mindblank (24 hours). You might want to leave some spells know to supplement your Warlock and Enlightened Fist abilities.

Got to go. I'll edit my response shortly.

New Proposed level stub.
Binder1Warlock16/HFW3//Monk1/Wizard1/Enlightened Fist10/SacredExorcist2/Wizard+4/Something

Later wizard level leaves an opening for Hellfire Warlock

Ninth level spells, since you lose 3 CL. Have 19 int for casting buffs, and your bonus spells are based on Str. So Str>Cha>Con>Dex>Int. A headband of intellect is suggested.

Using ACFs, you can trade your Scribe Scroll for a Fighter bonus feat, as well as your fifth level bonus Feat (for Snap Kick?). Familiar can be replace with Abrupt Jaunt.

More buffing! As a Wizard, you may use Luminous Armor, Persisted Shield (1+6 = 7th level slot) for AC without losing Cha to AC. Abjurant Champion would increase AC further, since Luminous Armor and Shield are Abjurations.


Okay. Having not played an Illumian, I'm going to have to figure this out, but maybe you can help me out. I like Krau, definitely. Aesh makes sense, since this is also a melee build. Not sure how Naen and Hoon play out, though. They give me Persistent Spell? Is that why I'm taking Sorc casting, for buffs?


Primer on Illumian incoming and sigils choices incoming.

Basically, every second level of each class give a Sigil, which gives a little bonus. The sigils give other bonuses in combination with other sigils to form words. Naenhoon is a combination of Naen and Hoon, and lets you spend Turn Undead attempts to add metamagic to a spell. Aesh and Krau form a word that lets you use your Strength as your caster stat for spell slots.

[Kazyan]

Let's make things simple:

Binder/Knight of the Sacred Seal//Warlock/Hellfire Warlock

Bind Ronove for unarmed strike progression, Astaroth for Imbue Item crafting, Chupoclops for Pounce and a bite, and Zceryll because optimizers will scream at you if you don't. I'll revisit this when I'm not strapped for time, but there's the idea.

[XmonkTad]

Glowing fists of death and battlefield control huh? Surprisingly, warlock//monk does that quite well. With Chilling Tentacles you can make stuff hold still. With Setting Sun Strike [Flash of Sunset] combined with at will Flee the Scene doing Eldritch Claw damage, well, that's a lot of fun.

Honestly I would build divine on the other side. Something like Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3//Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10/Cleric 4.

Feats really only need to include Eldritch Claws and Sun School (CWar). Quicken Spell-Like (Flee the scene)/(Chilling Tentacles) are gravy and make your two main combat actions faster. Built in cleric buffing gets you enlarge person and Sacred Fist gives you full BAB and advances monk unarmed damage.

Not exactly what you asked for, but mechanically strong, and playable at every level.

[Dr. Azkur]

Glowing fists of death and battlefield control huh? Surprisingly, warlock//monk does that quite well. With Chilling Tentacles you can make stuff hold still. With Setting Sun Strike [Flash of Sunset] combined with at will Flee the Scene doing Eldritch Claw damage, well, that's a lot of fun.[...]

What is this?

[Derpldorf]

I've actually played a character like this once. I'd actually advise Unarmed Swordsage if ToB is allowed. Warlock 20//Unarmed Swordsage 20* provides you with Dark level invocations and ninth level maneuvers. You have loads of options and can do a heckuva lot. For example, by level 20 I could fly, boost nearly all of my relevant stats and saves, and ignore hardness just to name a few options.

*it was restricted to single class in my case, feel free to optimize.

[bekeleven]

Are you going with the SRD Gestalt rules, or are we assuming some of the common playground gestalt houserules, including but not limited to:


Can't swap sides on which you're taking a class
Can't take a prestige on one side if you qualify with the other
Can't take a feat if you only half-qualify on either side
Can't double-progress abilities, even with prestige classes that are designed to stack onto other progressions


The answer to these questions determine how much sense it makes to even suggest builds without enlightened spirit.

[Telonius]

Hmm ... how about ...

Warforged
Warlock20//Totemist20

All good saves, 4+Int skills and a terrific list of class skills, Warforged comes with a built-in Natural Weapon (a slam attack) that can be improved by various soulmelds and chakra binds, Eldritch Claws appear to be an extra set of Natural weapons (possibly separate from some of the other soulmelds/chakra binds), also improved by soulmelds. This would be kind of squishy if you were just going Warlock. But since you'll be boosting your Constitution skyward for Incarnum (and Warforged means you could have a 20 just starting out, depending on your method of stat generation ... what is that, by the way?), HP is not as pressing a concern. Warlock can give you a variety of passive benefits, allowing you to concentrate your soulmelds on attack and AC.

Feats:
Eldritch Claws.

Unarmored Body. Gets rid of that pesky 5% chance of arcane failure. Your AC will take a bit of a hit, but there are more than enough ways of regaining it through soulmelds. Besides, you aren't going to be putting any magic on it anyway, since that would interfere with your crystal hippie mojo
soulmelds.

Multiattack and Improved Multiattack. Lessen the penalties on your additional natural weapons. Take Improved if you have a whole bunch of them active as par for the course (meaning yeah, probably take it).

Suggested Invocations:

Fell Flight: You are this guy.
http://cybertronmuseum.tripod.com/images/Transformers/Autobots/Swoop_A.jpg

Vitriolic Blast: Ignoring spell resistance is good. So is recurring damage.

Incarnum Shroud: More essentia is always good.

Darkness and Enervating Shadow: Normally this would not be a good option. However, you're going to be mixing it up in melee, and you'll be able to take a hit much, much better than the average Warlock thanks to your high Con score.

Suggested Soulmelds:

... well, that's a bit too much for the space here, and Homer lazy. The Totemist Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943.0) has some excellent suggestions.

[Waddacku]

Basically, every second level of each class give a Sigil
No. That interpretation is flat out impossible. Even reading "On attaining 2nd level in any class" as "Whenever you attain the 2nd level of a class", it still specifies it gives you a second sigil. You only ever get two.

[Red Fel]

Apologies for the wall of text. I've got some catching up to do.


Warlock 13 gets item creation stuff. A crafting feat might be valuable as well.

True. But a solid unarmed build is feat-starved enough; let's keep our heads about us.


This was done from memory, sorry. Drop the second monk level, since level 1 gives stunning fist. You can multiclass with Sorcerer freely with Ascetic Mage, and PrCs are weird about multiclassing. Enlightened Fist doesn't have multiclassing penalties for monk.

Whoops. Yeah. I forgot that part about Ascetic Mage. Good point.


Pop quiz! What's happens to a nonlawful monk? You can put a level of something, like the Binder dip, if being a Warlock and Monk at first level doesn't work.

Yeah, I just realized I keep all Monk abilities, but can't progress in the class, but I just don't feel the fluff. "Whoop, now I'm suddenly chaotic!" I completely take that back. More than half of the kung-fu movie protagonists are precisely that - lawful and obedient students until they get full of themselves, arrogant and hedonistic, and get kicked out of the monastery. I could work with a Chaotic ex-Monk. Good call.


Practiced spellcast might now be necessary with your sigils.

That, and the handful of non-spellcaster-advancing levels. It evens out.


Mighty Arms is a construct graft from MoE, and lets you use Battlefist.

Battlefist and the Necklace should both have a different array of enhancements on them, if the DM agree the fist provides enhancements other than a flat bonus to unarmed strikes. A defending battle fist might be handy, as well as other non-offensive abilities. A wounding collision impact necklace would be the sort of necklace you'll use

Hmm. Defending Battlefist. Admittedly, that's a good point - while I could use the NoNA to put enhancements on my fists, I could double the effectiveness by wearing a Battlefist, and enhancing that and the NoNA separately. Good call, there.


It's mostly buffing.

At the start of my start, I cast Great Might Wallop (Hour per level, makes fist collosal), Greater Magic Weapon (on Defending Battle Fist, and yourself, hour per level), Bite of the Werebear (persisted with Naenhoon), Great Mirror Image (Also persisted via Naenhoon), Persistent Wraithstrike, Superior Invisibility (Hour per level), Superior Resistance (24 hours), Mindblank (24 hours). You might want to leave some spells know to supplement your Warlock and Enlightened Fist abilities.

Okay, zoinks. That's... Fairly massive. Wowzers.


Got to go. I'll edit my response shortly.

New Proposed level stub.
Binder1Warlock16/HFW3//Monk1/Wizard1/Enlightened Fist10/SacredExorcist2/Wizard+4/Something

Holy turnarounds, Batman!


Later wizard level leaves an opening for Hellfire Warlock

Ninth level spells, since you lose 3 CL. Have 19 int for casting buffs, and your bonus spells are based on Str. So Str>Cha>Con>Dex>Int. A headband of intellect is suggested.

Using ACFs, you can trade your Scribe Scroll for a Fighter bonus feat, as well as your fifth level bonus Feat (for Snap Kick?). Familiar can be replace with Abrupt Jaunt.

More buffing! As a Wizard, you may use Luminous Armor, Persisted Shield (1+6 = 7th level slot) for AC without losing Cha to AC. Abjurant Champion would increase AC further, since Luminous Armor and Shield are Abjurations.

Hmm. On the one hand, Wiz gives me access to more/better spells, nice tricks you're listing. Fighter feats are a plus. But I don't see my guy lugging around books, is the thing. Not to mention the lack of ability synergies. On the other hand, I could take Kung Fu Genius to synergize my Monk and Wiz. But that still leaves Warlock out in the cold; although, if I don't trigger any saves, there's no need for a synergy there.


Primer on Illumian incoming and sigils choices incoming.

Basically, every second level of each class give a Sigil, which gives a little bonus. The sigils give other bonuses in combination with other sigils to form words. Naenhoon is a combination of Naen and Hoon, and lets you spend Turn Undead attempts to add metamagic to a spell. Aesh and Krau form a word that lets you use your Strength as your caster stat for spell slots.

Right, I've heard about Aeshkrau (the origin of the Fist Mage, as I recall). Naenhoon, though - now I see why you suggested Sacred Exorcist. Hmm. Still feels awfully caster-y to me. But you've got some pretty awesome stuff there, regardless.

Let's take a call from the audience.


Let's make things simple:

Binder/Knight of the Sacred Seal//Warlock/Hellfire Warlock

Bind Ronove for unarmed strike progression, Astaroth for Imbue Item crafting, Chupoclops for Pounce and a bite, and Zceryll because optimizers will scream at you if you don't. I'll revisit this when I'm not strapped for time, but there's the idea.

Simplicity is nice. Unfortunately, you missed one - Naberius is a necessity for an HFW. And I don't recall, but I think the Hound dislikes one or more of the folks on your list. Still, I do like the simplicity, the variety, and Ronove, Chupoclops and Zceryll are pretty potent in the build.

Not sure why I need KotSS, though. Better BAB, sure, but unless I end up going with Cha for saves, the Cha-to-AC-and-Reflex-Saves thing doesn't impress me much, and it's basically just advancing Binder level.


Glowing fists of death and battlefield control huh? Surprisingly, warlock//monk does that quite well. With Chilling Tentacles you can make stuff hold still. With Setting Sun Strike [Flash of Sunset] combined with at will Flee the Scene doing Eldritch Claw damage, well, that's a lot of fun.

What is this?

I'm with the Doc on this one. Did you mean the Desert Wind strike, Flashing Sun, that gives you an extra attack at your highest BAB with a full attack action?


Honestly I would build divine on the other side. Something like Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3//Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10/Cleric 4.

Feats really only need to include Eldritch Claws and Sun School (CWar). Quicken Spell-Like (Flee the scene)/(Chilling Tentacles) are gravy and make your two main combat actions faster. Built in cleric buffing gets you enlarge person and Sacred Fist gives you full BAB and advances monk unarmed damage.

Not exactly what you asked for, but mechanically strong, and playable at every level.

Interesting. So use Sun School to use my unarmed strikes to move an enemy around the field, stun and confuse enemies, and hello-port up to people; Flee the Scene (quickened) lets me swift-action move up to an enemy, triggering Sun School (although it says that I can take no other actions; does Sun School's Flash of Sunset tactic still work?); and Chilling Tentacles is great battlefield control. Here's one concern, though - don't I also take damage/grappling from Chilling Tentacles if I enter the area of the spell?

Admittedly, it's missing Binder, so I don't have Hellfire insurance, but overall it's pretty nice. I can see the merit of it, although I'd have to get used to some of the mechanics you suggest.


I've actually played a character like this once. I'd actually advise Unarmed Swordsage if ToB is allowed. Warlock 20//Unarmed Swordsage 20* provides you with Dark level invocations and ninth level maneuvers. You have loads of options and can do a heckuva lot. For example, by level 20 I could fly, boost nearly all of my relevant stats and saves, and ignore hardness just to name a few options.

*it was restricted to single class in my case, feel free to optimize.

Simple is good, and I'll assume ToB is allowed. (I love the stuffing out of that book.) Warlock 20/Unarmed Swordsage 20 is nice, I'll grant you; it gives me the Monk unarmed progression, a wide array of reusable tactical options, and doesn't make me terribly MAD. Admittedly, I'd like to throw Binder and Hellfire Warlock on there, but as far as simple builds go, that one's a nice, safe, clean one with no frills.


Are you going with the SRD Gestalt rules, or are we assuming some of the common playground gestalt houserules, including but not limited to:


Can't swap sides on which you're taking a class
Can't take a prestige on one side if you qualify with the other
Can't take a feat if you only half-qualify on either side
Can't double-progress abilities, even with prestige classes that are designed to stack onto other progressions


The answer to these questions determine how much sense it makes to even suggest builds without enlightened spirit.

I'm planning to go with the SRD rules, but open to other suggestions if you can make the case. Lay it on me.


Hmm ... how about ...

Warforged
Warlock20//Totemist20

Oh, holy mecha. We're about to see a King of Smack, aren't we?


All good saves, 4+Int skills and a terrific list of class skills, Warforged comes with a built-in Natural Weapon (a slam attack) that can be improved by various soulmelds and chakra binds, Eldritch Claws appear to be an extra set of Natural weapons (possibly separate from some of the other soulmelds/chakra binds), also improved by soulmelds. This would be kind of squishy if you were just going Warlock. But since you'll be boosting your Constitution skyward for Incarnum (and Warforged means you could have a 20 just starting out, depending on your method of stat generation ... what is that, by the way?), HP is not as pressing a concern. Warlock can give you a variety of passive benefits, allowing you to concentrate your soulmelds on attack and AC.

Eldritch Claws are, in essence, a damage augmentation that boosts your unarmed strikes for one round; I don't know what they do to natural weapons like slam attacks. I take that back. The language from the feat: "While your eldritch claws exist you may make up to two claw attacks as natural weapons. You are automatically proficient with your eldritch claws. On a successful attack with an eldritch claw, you deal your normal amount of unarmed strike damage plus your eldritch blast damage." So, I guess they're claw weapons that stack with your unarmed strikes? Again, I don't know what they do with natural attacks like a slam attack. But since they are technically claws - albeit ones formed temporarily - yes, anything that boosts the effectiveness of claws would boost them when formed.

This build will definitely need the AC and Con, and yeah, Warforged gives me that. Particularly if I decide to take Mithral Body, which counts as light armor and thus won't trigger ASF.

As an aside, stat method is irrelevant. Assume point-buy, for convenience.


Feats:
Eldritch Claws.

Unarmored Body. Gets rid of that pesky 5% chance of arcane failure. Your AC will take a bit of a hit, but there are more than enough ways of regaining it through soulmelds. Besides, you aren't going to be putting any magic on it anyway, since that would interfere with your crystal hippie mojo
soulmelds.

Warlocks don't suffer ASF from light armor, only from medium or heavy. But you do make a good point; I can't use a soul chakra bind with composite plating. On the other hand, only Incarnates get the soul chakra bind pre-epic, so I'm actually not all that worried about it. Mithral Body, chief.


Multiattack and Improved Multiattack. Lessen the penalties on your additional natural weapons. Take Improved if you have a whole bunch of them active as par for the course (meaning yeah, probably take it).

Yeah, I've worked with Warforged Totemists before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307217); I know the drill with regard to Multiattack. (Although the returns from IMA don't impress as much.)


Suggested Invocations:

Fell Flight: You are this guy.
http://cybertronmuseum.tripod.com/images/Transformers/Autobots/Swoop_A.jpg

A world of yes.


Vitriolic Blast: Ignoring spell resistance is good. So is recurring damage.

Oh... Oh my goodness. Burning fists of acid. And Vitriolic Blast stacks, doesn't it? And that essence would go onto the Claws, and I would hit multiple times, and and and...

Eee.


Incarnum Shroud: More essentia is always good.

Holy crumbs, I forgot MoI had Invocations! ... all of four of them... At least that one is pretty nice.


Darkness and Enervating Shadow: Normally this would not be a good option. However, you're going to be mixing it up in melee, and you'll be able to take a hit much, much better than the average Warlock thanks to your high Con score.

Ooh. That's actually a sick combo. Admittedly, it isn't very nice for any of my allies who are in combat with me, but given that I'm either Chaotic or Evil, nuts to them! I likey.


Suggested Soulmelds:

... well, that's a bit too much for the space here, and Homer lazy. The Totemist Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943.0) has some excellent suggestions.

I actually use this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287304), but I'll bookmark that one, thanks!

So, basically, it's a fairly straightforward build. On the one side, day-long invocations and burning kung fu. On the other, floaty animal soul-bits that permit me to wail on something. I like the flavor, it's crazy and fun. My concern, however, is that while Totemist stacks on additional sources of natural weapons and multiple attacks, it doesn't actually optimize my primary source of attack - Eldritch Claws. It just says, "Yeah, my hands are on fire. Also I have a spiked tail now. Spiked tails are cool."

Okay. Let's back up and look where we are.

From Snowbluff, we have a pair of arcane caster builds that use Monk for unarmed progression, and arcane casters for powerful buffs, via Illumian runeword tricks. Kazyan suggested an easy way to have day-long powers using Binder and Warlock, specifically using Vestiges to give me the unarmed progression of a Monk along with some other cute tricks. Not to mention the flavor; oh, the delicious flavor. XMonk suggested a Cleric blend, which is admittedly a bit more melee-oriented than most casters, but still rather caster-y. (Yes, I know; melee without buffs just doesn't impress. I still have to wrap my head around it for this build.) Derp gave me a nice, simple martial Warlock, no frills. And Telonius actually used a Warforged, yay! suggested some sort of flying invisible laser robot multilimbed glowing Christmas tree monster, which just turns the whole thing up to eleven.

Phew!

Okay. So here's the impression I'm getting.

1. I need casters. Apparently, I need something to stack buffs on, because Warlock Invocations aren't enough and unarmed strikes, even when you optimize, need spells to inspire. Gotcha. The question, then, is whether we can find a more... "martial" caster class, for lack of a better word. AbChamp is a nice step, although this build seems to be a bit BAB-starved; I'm also liking Enlightened Fist.

2. I don't need Monk to Monk. I sort of knew this already; Unarmed Swordsage does a pretty darn good job of embarassing Monk, despite not being a formally statted variant. I confess that I'd forgotten about Ronove; that almost makes going straight Binder on one side worth it. (Almost.)

3. What about Warlocks? Well, admittedly, I asked for this - I said "Binder, Warlock, Hellfire," and that's what I got. Bek mentioned Enlightened Spirit - a unique choice, to be sure. And some of you actually suggested dropping Hellfire altogether - is higher-level Warlock that good? I keep hearing that Hellfire is "practically a class feature," it's what Warlocks are supposed to do. Is that wrong?

So let's smooth things out. Here's what I think I want.

1. Caster bits. Okay, I yield; I guess I need some source of buffs. But can we minimize it, or make it more martial or melee-centric?

2. Monking bits. Let's focus, people. Lots of extra attacks are super keen, but the focus of this build is using Eldritch Claws, boosting Eldritch Claws, and having Eldritch Claws hit a lot. Let's just put to the side any use of natural weapons that doesn't in some way involve Eldritch Claws, and go from there.

I'm getting some good inspiration from the suggestions so far. Let's keep it up!

[XmonkTad]

What is this?

That is me confusing Tome of Battle and Complete Warrior. I don't know how I made that mistake.


Interesting. So use Sun School to use my unarmed strikes to move an enemy around the field, stun and confuse enemies, and hello-port up to people; Flee the Scene (quickened) lets me swift-action move up to an enemy, triggering Sun School (although it says that I can take no other actions; does Sun School's Flash of Sunset tactic still work?); and Chilling Tentacles is great battlefield control. Here's one concern, though - don't I also take damage/grappling from Chilling Tentacles if I enter the area of the spell?

Admittedly, it's missing Binder, so I don't have Hellfire insurance, but overall it's pretty nice. I can see the merit of it, although I'd have to get used to some of the mechanics you suggest.

Sun school specifically says it works with Dimension Door, which Flee the Scene copies. What I don't know is if Flash of Sunset Procs Snap Kick. Or if Snap Kick stacks with Eldrich Claws. Ask your DM.

As to entering your own chilling tentacle area, the tentacles don't grapple you (as per Evard's, which say they only grapple opponents), but they do slow you down. They also damage you with cold damage. However, they are a greater invocation (earliest use at level 11), and by then you should be flying all the time. Clerics get freedom of movement as a 4th level anyway.

As to the specific build, binder "insurance" can be added by simply by dipping binder right before going into Hellfire. Healing ability damage is easy for a cleric gestalt though. If you want to turn cleric into Favored Soul, you could get it more times per day (but really, that class).

[Red Fel]

Sun school specifically says it works with Dimension Door, which Flee the Scene copies. What I don't know is if Flash of Sunset Procs Snap Kick. Or if Snap Kick stacks with Eldrich Claws. Ask your DM.

Ahh, I see now. So it's a nice way to poof and sudden punch in the face. "Dynamic entry" indeed. Me likey.

And let's see. Snap Kick procs when you "make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons." I would say the Flash of Sunset tactic, which lets you "immediately make a single attack" counts, considering that, according to the SRD, "[a]n unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon." It lines up neatly to me, two for the price of one. And I believe that Snap Kick stacks with Claws, given that Snap Kick doesn't literally require a kick, despite its name - it simply lets you make an "additional attack" that's an "unarmed strike." So I like it. It's classy. Stay classy.


As to entering your own chilling tentacle area, the tentacles don't grapple you (as per Evard's, which say they only grapple opponents), but they do slow you down. They also damage you with cold damage. However, they are a greater invocation (earliest use at level 11), and by then you should be flying all the time. Clerics get freedom of movement as a 4th level anyway.

Hmm. According to the SRD, "every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check," regardless of who they are. It later uses the phrase "[o]nce the tentacles grapple an opponent," but still later reasserts that "[a]ny creature who enters the area" is immediately attacked. So I don't think my chilling tentacles would be so kind as to leave me in peace. Although you make a good point about flight, and about FoM.


As to the specific build, binder "insurance" can be added by simply by dipping binder right before going into Hellfire. Healing ability damage is easy for a cleric gestalt though. If you want to turn cleric into Favored Soul, you could get it more times per day (but really, that class).

Derp, yeah, I could just swap out Warlock 17 for Binder 1, true. And ugh, Favored Soul, true.

Hmm. So as I understand the build, it works like this:
- Cleric (and Sacred Fist) spells for buffing, including Freedom of Movement, because d'oy.
- Monk (and Sacred Fist) for unarmed progression.
- Warlock to ensnare opponents, then poof into the field while flying, because flying, and smackedy-smack some faces.
- Hellfire Warlock to increase quantity of smackedy-smack.
- Binder to not die of Chronic Hellfire Overdose.

Is that about right?

[bekeleven]

If you build Warlock 20 // XX 7 / Enlightened Spirit 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3, you can get base eldritch blast to 20D6. Note that you can get into spirit starting 5 and hellfire lock starting 10, I just represented it in chunks.

XX would likely include Totemist 2 and Binder 1, but it's to taste. I'm just pointing out the blast damage itself.

[Phelix-Mu]

I actually played a high-level int-based monk/wizard, and I have to say that the Sun School off Abrupt Jaunt, packing the greater mighty wallop was a pretty intense combo. Snap-Kick to taste, and Martial Study in some Assassin's Stance/Shadow Jaunt if you want.

I usually waited for something to take a shot at me, jaunt behind it, attack off Sun School, attempt to stun, then murder. The clawlock just make the murder faster.

The idea is generally to get stun off after the Abrupt Jaunt, I think, though at high levels stun can be less useful. It would be nice to fit Pharoah's Fist or Pain Touch in, as those go well with SF optimization, but the build is already crowded.

Furthermore, a few more levels in monk get you invisible status with Invisible Fist. That might be nice, especially at early levels when you are using that normal invisibility invocation. Probably non-optimal, though.

[Forrestfire]

Race: Hengeyokai or Human

Classes: Warlock 8/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock +8 //Cleric 1/Monk 1/Cleric +3/Sacred Fist 4/Cleric +3/Sacred Fist +6/Cleric +2

Get the Planning and Undeath domains, for saving feats. In addition, you'll want two flaws to get some more feats.

Feats:
1) Combat Reflexes, Extend Spell (bonus), Extra Turning (bonus), Combat Casting (bonus), Persistent Spell (bonus)
2) Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus), Stunning Fist (bonus)
3) Eldritch Claws
6) Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
9) Beast Strike
12) Craft Wondrous Item
15) Craft Construct
18) Rudimentary Intelligence


You've got 17th-level casting by level 20 and 19th-level warlocking, along with the hellfire warlock's damage boost. Your effective monk level is 11, which becomes 16 with a monk's belt. DMM Persisted divine power makes you full BAB for melee stuff, and since you have 11 effective monk levels, you've got an extra attack in flurry in addition to the first. Cleric gives you lots of buffs and utility, and the warlock side brings even more damage.

Since you're a warlock, you can craft items. Get yourself an eternal wand of greater mighty wallop, which will bring your unarmed strike damage to fairly ludicrous piles of dice. If you can, make or buy one at CL 20, but even with just CL 12, you're good. It lasts 12 hours per casting, so one eternal wand is 100% uptime.

Now, you might be wondering why I said to use Hengeyokai or Human over a Warforged, and why there are a bunch of crafting feats on the list... Well, here's the plan:

Step 1. Use your Craft Construct feat to make an advanced, rudimentary intelligence golem, probably a Greater Stone Golem or an Iron Golem. You want it to be huge, in any case. Paint it red, white, and blue. (http://i.imgur.com/2BksI0k.png) Make sure it takes the Jack of All Trades feat

Step 2. Get yourself some extra uses of turn undead, maybe through nightsticks if your DM isn't ruling them out (or just having lots of Cha). Cast a DMM Persisted greater humanoid essence on your golem each day.

Step 3. Buy a dorje of fusion and give it to your pet golem.

Step 4: You're a cleric, so you can use guidance of the avatar. Cast it on your golem.

Step 5: Have the golem make a Use Psionic Device check, which it can because of Jack of All Trades. Because of greater humanoid essence, it's a humanoid, so you fuse.

Step 6: Go win the Gundam Fight as the representative of your nation, because that hand of yours glows with an awesome power and its burning grip tells you to defeat them!

[George_Smith]

Race : Warforged

Classes : Warlock 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Warlock or Legacy Champion 6 / Warlock 1 || Unarmed Swordsage 5 / Crinti Shadow Marauder 5 / Unarmed Swordsage 10

Feats :
Eldritch Claws
Mounted Combat & Stealthy for Crinti Shadow Marauder
Adaptive Style for quick maneuver refreshing
Shape Soulmeld : Strongheart Vest

Maneuvers of Note :
Shadow Jaunt
Shadow Stride
Shadow Blink

Gear :
Monk's Belt for the last 5 levels of unarmed progression

Alignment : LE, as Crinti Shadow Marauder requires Non-Good


Fairly self explanatory, Crinti Shadow Marauder gives a full attack after a teleport, which you can have up to three of a round. Legacy Champion can advance Hellfire Warlock or just be replaced by more levels of Warlock, if it's a bit too cheesy. If Strongheart Vest doesn't work for you, you can swap a level of Swordsage for a level of Binder.
If you're willing to spend feats on the maneuvers, Swordsage can be replaced by Warblade for the better BAB, but you would lose the unarmed strike progression.
At 20th level, you'd open combat with a set of three teleports, for 6 attacks that deal 2d10+15d6/24d6(with Legacy Champion), assuming base unarmed + hellfire blast only, which if all attacks hit, is 12d10+90d6/144d6, or an average of 381/570.
Or instead of using all three teleports to attack the first round, use two to attack, one to retreat & hide, then refresh maneuvers and repeat. It averages out to one Eldritch Claws attack a round, but you should hopefully be able to avoid taking damage or being targeted by spells.
If you spend a feat on Craft Wands and take 12 or more levels of Warlock, you can make yourself wands of Greater Mighty Wallop for extra damage.

[Red Fel]

Good afternoon! Let's get into it.

If you build Warlock 20 // XX 7 / Enlightened Spirit 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3, you can get base eldritch blast to 20D6. Note that you can get into spirit starting 5 and hellfire lock starting 10, I just represented it in chunks.

XX would likely include Totemist 2 and Binder 1, but it's to taste. I'm just pointing out the blast damage itself.

Hmm. On the one hand, that is outrageous EB damage. A thing of beauty. On the other, that 7 floating levels is, I think, hardly enough to optimize my unarmed combat. One level of Binder, definitely. But after that, even with six levels of Monk or Unarmed Swordsage, my base unarmed attack would be finite, my further melee utility even more limited. I love the pew-pew, but it's lacking the punch-punch.


I actually played a high-level int-based monk/wizard, and I have to say that the Sun School off Abrupt Jaunt, packing the greater mighty wallop was a pretty intense combo. Snap-Kick to taste, and Martial Study in some Assassin's Stance/Shadow Jaunt if you want.

I usually waited for something to take a shot at me, jaunt behind it, attack off Sun School, attempt to stun, then murder. The clawlock just make the murder faster.

The idea is generally to get stun off after the Abrupt Jaunt, I think, though at high levels stun can be less useful. It would be nice to fit Pharoah's Fist or Pain Touch in, as those go well with SF optimization, but the build is already crowded.

Furthermore, a few more levels in monk get you invisible status with Invisible Fist. That might be nice, especially at early levels when you are using that normal invisibility invocation. Probably non-optimal, though.

Hmm. So basically, get attacked, Flee the Scene behind it, Sun School + Snap Kick, makes sense. I don't know the rest of the things you mention (Pharoah's Fist, Pain Touch, Invisible Fist) but it sounds like this is a pretty good choice. I'm liking the combo.


Race: Hengeyokai or Human
And somebody's using the Hengeyokai! (The +0 LA version, I assume.)


Classes: Warlock 8/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock +8 //Cleric 1/Monk 1/Cleric +3/Sacred Fist 4/Cleric +3/Sacred Fist +6/Cleric +2
What an interesting level breakdown. I'm intrigued.


Get the Planning and Undeath domains, for saving feats. In addition, you'll want two flaws to get some more feats.

Feats:
1) Combat Reflexes, Extend Spell (bonus), Extra Turning (bonus), Combat Casting (bonus), Persistent Spell (bonus)
2) Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus), Stunning Fist (bonus)
3) Eldritch Claws
6) Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
9) Beast Strike
12) Craft Wondrous Item
15) Craft Construct
18) Rudimentary Intelligence


You've got 17th-level casting by level 20 and 19th-level warlocking, along with the hellfire warlock's damage boost. Your effective monk level is 11, which becomes 16 with a monk's belt. DMM Persisted divine power makes you full BAB for melee stuff, and since you have 11 effective monk levels, you've got an extra attack in flurry in addition to the first. Cleric gives you lots of buffs and utility, and the warlock side brings even more damage.

Simple. I like simple. DMM Persist Divine Power, burning Monk up in there. I like.


Since you're a warlock, you can craft items. Get yourself an eternal wand of greater mighty wallop, which will bring your unarmed strike damage to fairly ludicrous piles of dice. If you can, make or buy one at CL 20, but even with just CL 12, you're good. It lasts 12 hours per casting, so one eternal wand is 100% uptime.

Now that's useful info.


Now, you might be wondering why I said to use Hengeyokai or Human over a Warforged, and why there are a bunch of crafting feats on the list... Well, here's the plan:

Step 1. Use your Craft Construct feat to make an advanced, rudimentary intelligence golem, probably a Greater Stone Golem or an Iron Golem. You want it to be huge, in any case. Paint it red, white, and blue. (http://i.imgur.com/2BksI0k.png) Make sure it takes the Jack of All Trades feat

Step 2. Get yourself some extra uses of turn undead, maybe through nightsticks if your DM isn't ruling them out (or just having lots of Cha). Cast a DMM Persisted greater humanoid essence on your golem each day.

Step 3. Buy a dorje of fusion and give it to your pet golem.

Step 4: You're a cleric, so you can use guidance of the avatar. Cast it on your golem.

Step 5: Have the golem make a Use Psionic Device check, which it can because of Jack of All Trades. Because of greater humanoid essence, it's a humanoid, so you fuse.

Step 6: Go win the Gundam Fight as the representative of you nation, because that hand of yours glows with an awesome power and its burning grip tells you to defeat them!

...

...

... Fund it.

(Admittedly, huge level of cheese pulling that off, but... Holy crap. That's sexy evil genius, right there.)


Race : Warforged

Classes : Warlock 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Warlock or Legacy Champion 6 / Warlock 1 || Unarmed Swordsage 5 / Crinti Shadow Marauder 5 / Unarmed Swordsage 10

Feats :
Eldritch Claws
Mounted Combat & Stealthy for Crinti Shadow Marauder
Adaptive Style for quick maneuver refreshing
Shape Soulmeld : Strongheart Vest

Maneuvers of Note :
Shadow Jaunt
Shadow Stride
Shadow Blink

Gear :
Monk's Belt for the last 5 levels of unarmed progression

Alignment : LE, as Crinti Shadow Marauder requires Non-Good


Fairly self explanatory, Crinti Shadow Marauder gives a full attack after a teleport, which you can have up to three of a round. Legacy Champion can advance Hellfire Warlock or just be replaced by more levels of Warlock, if it's a bit too cheesy. If Strongheart Vest doesn't work for you, you can swap a level of Swordsage for a level of Binder.

Strongheart Vest doesn't work, alas, because it makes one immune to ability damage, rather than simply healing it.



If you're willing to spend feats on the maneuvers, Swordsage can be replaced by Warblade for the better BAB, but you would lose the unarmed strike progression.

As much as better BAB is better, unarmed strike progression is better still.


At 20th level, you'd open combat with a set of three teleports, for 6 attacks that deal 2d10+15d6/24d6(with Legacy Champion), assuming base unarmed + hellfire blast only, which if all attacks hit, is 12d10+90d6/144d6, or an average of 381/570.
Or instead of using all three teleports to attack the first round, use two to attack, one to retreat & hide, then refresh maneuvers and repeat. It averages out to one Eldritch Claws attack a round, but you should hopefully be able to avoid taking damage or being targeted by spells.
If you spend a feat on Craft Wands and take 12 or more levels of Warlock, you can make yourself wands of Greater Mighty Wallop for extra damage.

One thing I notice about this build is that I'm basically soaking several feats. I have Mounted Combat as a prereq, which my Warlock will never use (unless I decide to, say, swap out personal flight for the ability to ride on an undead giant bat or something). Similarly, the class Bonus Feat is wasted, as is the Shadow Ride ability.

That said, the capstone is pretty nice. Shadow Pounce basically takes Sun School and turns it up to 11. The problem is that the former is five class levels long for that payoff, while the latter is one third of a feat.

That said, I really, really like that you've focused the entire martial side on - gasp - a form of martial progression. It's great. Basically, this build is the ultimate pop in, brutalize, pop out design. I do believe Shadow Pounce puts Sun School to shame. And it's easier to spare 5 levels when the build is a gestalt.

Hmm. So let's review. I'm really developing a fondness for the whole concept of Warlock/Monk/Cleric, sort of an unholy fist of hell thing. I can work with that. This Shadow Pounce trick, however, appeals to me, and the fact that I don't have to organize a second spell list (although it does throw in ToB maneuvers) is appealing. And while I love the Gundam Fusion trick (although, given that it involves Fusion, shouldn't it be more lion-themed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaxV0nSTz68)?) it seems an awful lot of effort for the payoff. Even if that payoff is a huge mecha powered by fire and rage. I think my DM might actually try to kill me for building that.

So, right now, it looks like the two favored build styles consist of Warlock//Caster-Monk, and Warlock//Shadowpouncing-Monk. Any other suggestions?

[George_Smith]

One thing I notice about this build is that I'm basically soaking several feats. I have Mounted Combat as a prereq, which my Warlock will never use (unless I decide to, say, swap out personal flight for the ability to ride on an undead giant bat or something). Similarly, the class Bonus Feat is wasted, as is the Shadow Ride ability.

That said, the capstone is pretty nice. Shadow Pounce basically takes Sun School and turns it up to 11. The problem is that the former is five class levels long for that payoff, while the latter is one third of a feat.


Unfortunately, the only other source for Shadow Pounce that I'm aware of is Telflamamar Shadowlord, which, while it gives Shadow Pounce in 4 levels instead of 5, requires Blind-Fight, Dodge, Mobility & Spring Attack as pre-req feats and 2d6 sneak attack, so you're soaking at least two levels in addition to spending most of your feats on it. That said, the 5th level ability Shadow Discorporation lets you make reflex saves when you would take damage that would reduce you to 0 or lower HP to turn into shadows and reappear within a mile at the next sunset. So that's neat.
So soaking the two feats and five levels is easiest way to get Shadow Pounce that I'm aware of. Also the quickest, since Telflammar Shadowlord gives it at level 11.

I'd still recommend grabbing Shadow Jaunt and Shadow Stride via feats even if you don't want to use an initiating class, just for the fun of having an Ex teleportation ability, as well as a level of Warblade, so you can recover them during an encounter.

As for Strongheart Vest, I've never read it as being immune to ability damage, much as I've never read DR 1/- as being immune to damage. That said, I can see the argument as it does technically make you immune to the ability damage from Hellfire Warlock, although the Hellfire Blast entry requires you to be immune to Con damage totally for it not to work, not just immune to the damage from Hellfire Blast.
However, you said it doesn't work, so it doesn't work. Binder, or using wands of Restoration/Lesser Restoration would probably be the way to go.

[Red Fel]

Unfortunately, the only other source for Shadow Pounce that I'm aware of is Telflamamar Shadowlord, which, while it gives Shadow Pounce in 4 levels instead of 5, requires Blind-Fight, Dodge, Mobility & Spring Attack as pre-req feats and 2d6 sneak attack, so you're soaking at least two levels in addition to spending most of your feats on it. That said, the 5th level ability Shadow Discorporation lets you make reflex saves when you would take damage that would reduce you to 0 or lower HP to turn into shadows and reappear within a mile at the next sunset. So that's neat.
So soaking the two feats and five levels is easiest way to get Shadow Pounce that I'm aware of. Also the quickest, since Telflammar Shadowlord gives it at level 11.

Very good point. And I do like Shadow Pounce. And while I've appreciated Telf Shlord, I'm not that interested in soaking that many feats and levels into it. So good call there.


I'd still recommend grabbing Shadow Jaunt and Shadow Stride via feats even if you don't want to use an initiating class, just for the fun of having an Ex teleportation ability, as well as a level of Warblade, so you can recover them during an encounter.

Yeah, I definitely want those, no question. Although if I'm taking Unarmed Swordsage, I can take those regularly. (Although I'd need to take Adaptive Style, because it's practically a Swordsage feat tax/class feature.)


As for Strongheart Vest, I've never read it as being immune to ability damage, much as I've never read DR 1/- as being immune to damage. That said, I can see the argument as it does technically make you immune to the ability damage from Hellfire Warlock, although the Hellfire Blast entry requires you to be immune to Con damage totally for it not to work, not just immune to the damage from Hellfire Blast.
However, you said it doesn't work, so it doesn't work. Binder, or using wands of Restoration/Lesser Restoration would probably be the way to go.

Yeah, I've heard the arguments, and it's a good point. But I generally take the conservative route when it comes to gray areas of RAW, and I'm a bit wary of things that risk book-related concussions. Besides, the Binder flavor is awesome with Warlocks, particularly if this one will be LE and binding Naberius. Some of Naberius' powers - such as Disguise Self, Command, and those Diplomacy and Bluff boosts - are almost required practices for any awesome LE character; and the idea of a Hell-powered kung-fu wizard who leaps through shadows and is bonded with the spirit of the hound guarding the gates of hell (perhaps, some think) is just too tasty to let go of.

[George_Smith]

In that case, I'd suggest something like Warlock 1 / Bloodline 3 / Warlock 6 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Warlock 7 || Swordsage 1 / Binder 3 / Swordsage 1 / Crinti Shadow Marauder 5 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Binder 5

Bloodlines are mostly for advancing Effective Binder Level, but if they're allowed to advance Hellfire Blast, that's a bonus.
You end up with an EBL of about 19, so if you're binding Ronove, that means almost full unarmed damage progression (throw on a Monk's Belt and hope it stacks for full), and you don't need Naberius until level 11, by which point you can bind both of them. You can drop a level of Binder for another level of Swordsage, which will just let you squeeze in Shadow Blink if my math is correct (8 IL from non-Swordsage, 3 IL from Swordsage and 3 IL from bloodlines).
Swordsage gives skills to qualify for Crinti, and you can bind Buer or Halphax for healing or battlefield control, and Knight of the Sacred Seal gives slightly better BAB, so you end up with a BAB of somewhere around 16, if you're using fractional BAB. If you want to get full EBL, just drop a level of binder and grab a level of another binding prestige class. Maybe trade out four levels for Scion of Dantalion for another move action teleport. Scion of Dantalion doesn't seem to require you to bind Dantalion, so you'd still be able to bind any four vestiges. It does require you to be human, half-elf or half-orc though, which does keep you from being a warforged.

That said, this doesn't function nearly as well without bloodlines, as you'd end up with a EBL of 13, so you could only bind 2 vestiges and that's towards the end of the build, an IL of 11, so you lose out on Shadow Blink.

[Red Fel]

In that case, I'd suggest something like Warlock 1 / Bloodline 3 / Warlock 6 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Warlock 7 || Swordsage 1 / Binder 3 / Swordsage 1 / Crinti Shadow Marauder 5 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Binder 5

Bloodlines are mostly for advancing Effective Binder Level, but if they're allowed to advance Hellfire Blast, that's a bonus.

Okay. I know there's some confusion over Bloodlines; I get confused too. I thought that a Bloodline isn't an actual class level, but just a sort of xp tax you must pay before taking a class level; is that incorrect?

In any event, it's an interesting point, and you're right; I don't need Naberius before I get Hellfire, and Ronove is solid until then.


You end up with an EBL of about 19, so if you're binding Ronove, that means almost full unarmed damage progression (throw on a Monk's Belt and hope it stacks for full), and you don't need Naberius until level 11, by which point you can bind both of them. You can drop a level of Binder for another level of Swordsage, which will just let you squeeze in Shadow Blink if my math is correct (8 IL from non-Swordsage, 3 IL from Swordsage and 3 IL from bloodlines).

Let me see. IL calculations get confounded to hell and back in a gestalt. Okay. So at level 20, on one side of the gestalt I have 18 levels of non-initiator, 2 levels of initiator (or 17 and 3 if I drop one Binder for Swordsage); on the other side, 17 non-initiator and 3 Bloodline. Since I don't want to double-bill, and Bloodline counts for IL the same way it counts for CL, I'll drop three non-IL and say a total of 6 IL from IL classes (3 Swordsage, 3 Bloodline), leaving 14 from non-IL classes, in half is 7, which gives me 6+7=13 total IL, giving me access to 7th-level maneuvers. Shadow Blink is 7th-level, score.


Swordsage gives skills to qualify for Crinti, and you can bind Buer or Halphax for healing or battlefield control, and Knight of the Sacred Seal gives slightly better BAB, so you end up with a BAB of somewhere around 16, if you're using fractional BAB. If you want to get full EBL, just drop a level of binder and grab a level of another binding prestige class. Maybe trade out four levels for Scion of Dantalion for another move action teleport. Scion of Dantalion doesn't seem to require you to bind Dantalion, so you'd still be able to bind any four vestiges. It does require you to be human, half-elf or half-orc though, which does keep you from being a warforged.Hmm. Want to avoid Scion of Dantalion, and ideally avoid too many Vestiges; Ronove and Naberius are fine, but throw too many on and it gets a bit cumbersome. I still don't like KotSS all that much; apart from the BAB, it's a bit of a nuisance. That said, if I choose Ronove or Naberius as my patron, I don't risk losing my class abilities since I'll be using them every day anyway.


That said, this doesn't function nearly as well without bloodlines, as you'd end up with a EBL of 13, so you could only bind 2 vestiges and that's towards the end of the build, an IL of 11, so you lose out on Shadow Blink.

True. Hmm. So how could we clean this up, simplify it a little?

EDIT: As an aside, I noticed that the Competition Domain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051202a&page=5) gives me Righteous Might and Divine Power as Domain spells. Could anyone here see our kung-fu Warlock worshipping Hextor, if I end up going with the Cleric-style build?

EDIT #2: Additional question. Say I use Shadow Blink, swift action, teleport to enemy, Shadow Pounce, full attack. That was my swift action; can I then use Flee the Scene to pop out on another side of the same opponent, Shadow Pounce for full attack again? And as a further aside, since Flee the Scene leaves a Major Image, does that count as flanking?

[George_Smith]

Okay. I know there's some confusion over Bloodlines; I get confused too. I thought that a Bloodline isn't an actual class level, but just a sort of xp tax you must pay before taking a class level; is that incorrect?


Honestly? I have no idea. In this case, I tend to err on the side of caution and have it take up an actual level so you can't end up with with say 6 bloodline levels when the party is level 4. With a warlock, as long as you stay long distance and don't get hit, you won't even notice that lack of hitpoints, as I believe bloodlines advance EB damage.
That said, the way it's phrased makes it seem like it isn't an actual level, so I could see it going either way.

Cleaning it up a bit, since you only really want 2 Vestiges you could do something like Warlock 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Warlock 7 || Swordsage 1 / Binder 3 / Swordsage 1 / Crinti 5 / Binder 2 / Swordsage 8.
That gets you 2 Vestiges, and all three Shadow teleportation maneuvers, as well as Shadow Pounce.

If you don't mind slight absurdities, another option could be Warlock 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Warlock 7 || Binder 1 / Warblade 4 / Bloodstorm Blade 5 / Warblade 3 / Bloodstorm Blade 5 / Warblade 2.

Throw on wands of Greater Mighty Wallop, the Superior Unarmed Strike feat, and you can throw Eldritch Claws at people as Throw Anything technically allows you to throw any melee weapon you're proficient with, and you're proficient with your claws. Admittedly, the Eldritch Claws count as natural weapons, rather than manufactured weapons, but Throw Anything doesn't make a distinction. You'd end up throwing Eldritch Claws that deal about 17d6 without Greater Mighty Wallop. With a CL 20 Greater Mighty Wallop, it's about 27d6. It averages out to 119 or 189 a round if both claws hit.

If you read Lightning Ricochet somewhat loosely, it could allow you to make full attacks with a single Eldritch Claw, and you'd have 19 BAB, so you'd get four attacks. 68d6 normally or 108d6 with Greater Might Wallop. That is a somewhat loose interpretation though, so it might result in book related concussions.

[Forrestfire]

On that note, the Blood Wind spell lets you do the full attacking at range thing as well, as a first-level Cleric and Wizard/Sorcerer spell.

[Red Fel]

Honestly? I have no idea. In this case, I tend to err on the side of caution and have it take up an actual level so you can't end up with with say 6 bloodline levels when the party is level 4. With a warlock, as long as you stay long distance and don't get hit, you won't even notice that lack of hitpoints, as I believe bloodlines advance EB damage.
That said, the way it's phrased makes it seem like it isn't an actual level, so I could see it going either way.

Hmm, yeah. I can see it falling into "ask your DM" territory. And you're right, taking them as actual levels instead of "fake" levels is erring on the side of caution. Whether EB is increased by Bloodlines is iffy, but I could see it going in that direction.


Cleaning it up a bit, since you only really want 2 Vestiges you could do something like Warlock 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Warlock 7 || Swordsage 1 / Binder 3 / Swordsage 1 / Crinti 5 / Binder 2 / Swordsage 8.
That gets you 2 Vestiges, and all three Shadow teleportation maneuvers, as well as Shadow Pounce.

Let me see... Yeah, 10 IL-levels + 10 non-IL-levels = IL 15, which is enough for 8th-level maneuvers. (Sweet!) And it really only has four classes in the build (since HFW is just Warlock+, anyway), which is nice and clean. I like it. Plus, Unarmed Swordsage advances my unarmed strikes, which is a thing. A 10th-level SS, as a Monk, would get 1d10 damage on unarmed strikes, before Eldritch Claws and maneuvers. Greater Mighty Wallop then increases the dice size by one category per four CL; I'm pretty sure my Warlock/HFW levels entitle me to full CL, so that's five categories, up to an effective size of colossal. Given that my strikes are medium to begin with, a 1d10 medium weapon would be a bastard sword; at the cap of colossal that's dealing 6d8, for an average of 27 per hit, before Claws and maneuvers. Hokey smokes, not bad for government work.


If you don't mind slight absurdities, another option could be Warlock 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Warlock 7 || Binder 1 / Warblade 4 / Bloodstorm Blade 5 / Warblade 3 / Bloodstorm Blade 5 / Warblade 2.

Throw on wands of Greater Mighty Wallop, the Superior Unarmed Strike feat, and you can throw Eldritch Claws at people as Throw Anything technically allows you to throw any melee weapon you're proficient with, and you're proficient with your claws. Admittedly, the Eldritch Claws count as natural weapons, rather than manufactured weapons, but Throw Anything doesn't make a distinction. You'd end up throwing Eldritch Claws that deal about 17d6 without Greater Mighty Wallop. With a CL 20 Greater Mighty Wallop, it's about 27d6. It averages out to 119 or 189 a round if both claws hit.

If you read Lightning Ricochet somewhat loosely, it could allow you to make full attacks with a single Eldritch Claw, and you'd have 19 BAB, so you'd get four attacks. 68d6 normally or 108d6 with Greater Might Wallop. That is a somewhat loose interpretation though, so it might result in book related concussions.

While I'm not clear on the math, I love the effect. I could buy into it if I were playing a Warforged, because I happen to love robots firing their rocket-fists (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkJPpxakY2Y). You're right, however; it is a bit absurd. And the image I'm hoping for is the kung-fu monk, not the rocket-fist-laser-eye mecha. (Although I do love that image. I've mentioned that, right?)


On that note, the Blood Wind spell lets you do the full attacking at range thing as well, as a first-level Cleric and Wizard/Sorcerer spell.

Also a very interesting and valid point. As above, however; striking from range should be more the exception than the rule for this character. I want him to be in melee busting heads, precisely where you would not expect the typical non-Divine spellcaster (looking at you, CoDzillas).

[George_Smith]

Let me see... Yeah, 10 IL-levels + 10 non-IL-levels = IL 15, which is enough for 8th-level maneuvers. (Sweet!) And it really only has four classes in the build (since HFW is just Warlock+, anyway), which is nice and clean. I like it.


Potentially an issue, I forgot to mention that that build should be using bloodlines, since that's how I got it to EBL 8 for the double binding. That would bring IL to 18, which would be enough for 9th level maneuvers. I was writing that up as if bloodlines didn't take a level, since that was what you had said before, but I didn't realize I forgot to mention that they were being used.

Although, they're not really necessary, since you only need Naberius since you have Swordsage for unarmed damage, which means you can drop a couple binder levels for more Swordsage levels to get 9th level maneuvers.

Something like Warlock 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Warlock 7 || Binder 1 / Swordsage 4 / Crinti Shadow Marauder 5 / Swordsage 10?
That boosts your unarmed damage another step, and gets you an IL of 17, which is just enough for 9th level maneuvers.

[Vanitas]

I'd do Warlock on one side and Full BAB 5/Enlightened Spirit 10/Shou Disciple 5 on the other side. That's 14d6 eldritch bast, 2d6 unarmed. Claw damage is 24d6 after Improved Natural Attack; you can get a lot better using items.

It's hard to top Enlightened Spirit when it comes to gestalt warlocks.

[Red Fel]

Potentially an issue, I forgot to mention that that build should be using bloodlines, since that's how I got it to EBL 8 for the double binding. That would bring IL to 18, which would be enough for 9th level maneuvers. I was writing that up as if bloodlines didn't take a level, since that was what you had said before, but I didn't realize I forgot to mention that they were being used.

Although, they're not really necessary, since you only need Naberius since you have Swordsage for unarmed damage, which means you can drop a couple binder levels for more Swordsage levels to get 9th level maneuvers.

Something like Warlock 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Warlock 7 || Binder 1 / Swordsage 4 / Crinti Shadow Marauder 5 / Swordsage 10?
That boosts your unarmed damage another step, and gets you an IL of 17, which is just enough for 9th level maneuvers.

Hmm... Honestly, a gestalt is potent enough as it is, Bloodlines are kind of asking for trouble, particularly with the ambiguities. This build is pretty sweet, with or without them.

Also, ooh-dag, chief. Now you're cookin' with gas.


I'd do Warlock on one side and Full BAB 5/Enlightened Spirit 10/Shou Disciple 5 on the other side. That's 14d6 eldritch bast, 2d6 unarmed. Claw damage is 24d6 after Improved Natural Attack; you can get a lot better using items.

It's hard to top Enlightened Spirit when it comes to gestalt warlocks.

Ah! Some love for Shou Disciple!

Hmm... The challenge is getting IUS that early while using a full BAB class.

D'uh, Fighter. Frankly, five levels of Fighter gets me four Fighter feats, not counting the ones I'd ordinarily get anyway; of those, all three prereqs of Shou Disciple (IUS, Dodge, WF) are on the Fighter Feat list. Score!

Getting into Enlightened Spirit is a cakewalk; it only requires EB 3d6 (which, at 6th level, I have), a Knowledge skill, and - a ha! A Good alignment. This would be a problem if I were using Monk, since that would require Lawful, and thus Evil, alignment; but since we're using an Unarmed Fighter base, I can make this build Chaotic Good!

So I can take Warlock, full Hellfire, and full Enlightened Spirit, all thoroughly boosting my Eldritch Claws. And, since Shou has its own unarmed progression, I won't have to worry about a monk progression; by Shou 5, I'm striking with a base 2d6, which ain't half bad.

The problem, as I see it, is the delay; unless I take Shou at an earlier level (and, thanks to my saves, the earliest I can take it is 7th) I'm putting off being able to function well using unarmed strikes. Yes, my Eldritch Claws damage will be spectacular, but the underlying damage output will be sub-par until Shou kicks in.

That said, if I have Warlock 16 and Hellfire Warlock 3 on one side, and Enlightened Spirit 10 on the other, my Eldritch Claws deal 7d6+6d6+5d6, or 18d6, which is not stopped by fire resistance, and can be shaped to do extra damage to undead or outsiders. Not too shabby, and that's before I get an upgraded unarmed progression from Shou. And you're right; INA (claws) will upgrade that further.

In terms of pure smashing action, that's a pretty effective build; it focuses on the Warlock juice, to rather satisfying effect. The BAB wouldn't differ substantially from a more Monk-y build, since both have 3/4 BAB progression; in fact, throwing on Fighter and Shou would increase BAB in a most delightful way. And in terms of cleanliness, there's very little bookkeeping involved; the active abilities of the build are exclusively Warlock ones. Fighter adds nothing but passives and feats; even Shou adds nothing but an unarmed progression (since the class doesn't actually grant Flurry of Misses Blows). So keeping track of what I can do is a snap.

Bottom line - this build is, I think, the cleanest so far in terms of bookkeeping. I love it for that. However - and I know I'm almost contradicting myself here - I worry that it's too clean. While I wanted a build that focused on face-punching - and this one definitely does that, no frills whatsoever - I realize that this makes me a bit of a predictable one-trick pony. There's no Shadow Pounce, no Divine Might, no martial maneuvers or extra tricks that can give me diversity in combat. I'm dependent entirely on my Warlock invocations to get me in, out, and around the battlefield; any enemy who stays outside of my range becomes immune to my key trick.

It is an understandable limitation to this build, and even without EC, a basic EB can do some rough damage at range thanks to both HFW and ES, but I want this guy to be able to get around and brawl effectively, not to have to kamehameha every time he wants to hit something.

... And I just realized that this build - with all of the Warlock boosters, plus Fighter and Shou - is basically a flimsier DBZ character. And that makes me sad.

How about we do something to make me un-sad, hmm?

[Red Fel]

Update - builds uploaded in the original post. Please take a peek, critiques welcomed - and I'm still missing feats!

[Dr. Azkur]

Third Build.

I'm sorry... what? Fighter 5? That doesn't make any sense. Don't ever go Odd-leveled Fighter unless you're doing Zhentarim (did I spell that right?).
Dip ANYTHING, enter Shou Disciple early, whatever, but don't do Fighter 5.

...

Well IT IS Gestalt and you're getting something from the Warlock side but still, Fighter 5 is just offensive.

[Red Fel]

Third Build.

I'm sorry... what? Fighter 5? That doesn't make any sense. Don't ever go Odd-leveled Fighter unless you're doing Zhentarim (did I spell that right?).
Dip ANYTHING, enter Shou Disciple early, whatever, but don't do Fighter 5.

...

Well IT IS Gestalt and you're getting something from the Warlock side but still, Fighter 5 is just offensive.

Ordinarily, I'd completely agree with you.

Frankly, I'm even pondering the possibility of switching that fifth level out (or the first level) for Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian. Maybe take Whirling Frenzy or Ferocity (Cityscape). Only real reasons I used an odd level of Fighter were (1) it was the original suggestion, and (2) I was tired, it was late, and I didn't want to have to think about a different class for that level.

That said? Yeah, I know. Even levels of Fighter only, get your bonus feat and get out.

EDIT: Or Warblade 1, take Punishing Stance, add yet another 1d6 onto every iterative attack, at the cost of AC. I should probably fit Snap Kick, INA, SUS, maybe Versatile US or Keen/Vorpal US, I dunno... Needs more feat.

[Dr. Azkur]

I think Warblade 1 is one of the most wonderful dips, level 9 is when it's most ripe but 5 does it well too.

[Feint's End]

Just as a small thought exercise I'd like to see how far up we can get the claw damage.

Build is pretty flexible but you need:
a. Kalashtar and the Ectoplasmatic Fist Quori Shard
b. Strong Arm Craft and Battlefist
c. a way to get Expansion for 2 size increase
d. a way to get a cl 16+ Greater Mighty Wallop
e. a way to get improved natural attack

Now with all that together and applying the boni the most favourable way (Great Mighty Wallop comes first obviously for up to Colossal size) we have 9 size increases. I also assume we deal unarmed damage as a 20 level monk (one side could be a tashalatora mix for example ... Greater Mighty Wallop you could get from items or a friendly caster).

Now I know some people might disagree with me on that but from my calculations the size progression works that basically every two size increases the number of die doubles. (we can see that from the progression we know).

So we start off with 2d10->4d8->6d8->8d8->12d8->16d8->24d8->32d8->48d8->64d8

64d8 damage which gets doubled by using beaststrike and eldritch claws. So before anything (yes even without any of the claw damage, strength and other hokus pous) you already deal 128d8 damage or an average of 576.

Also a good arguement for using Tashalatora on the second side because Vampiric Claws will heal you for 50% of the damage or an average of 288 per attack (again before the claw damage).

The Claws will obviously have two size increase too from Tashalatora.

Go to town.

edit: I just realized you can pull all of the above off on the second side leaving your first side very flexible. It would be just very unelegant. Just make an StP Erudite Tashalatora (maybe use Kung Fu Genius too) monk 19/1

[Red Fel]

I think Warblade 1 is one of the most wonderful dips, level 9 is when it's most ripe but 5 does it well too.

Swapping Warblade 1 for Fighter 5 would get me a net change of +2 Fort, plus maneuvers known of 2nd level or lower. I agree that 9th-level would be a better substitution point (it would give me 3rd-level maneuvers, if I'm mathing right), but that falls squarely in the middle of Enlightened Spirit, which is awkward. Not impossible, just awkward.


Just as a small thought exercise I'd like to see how far up we can get the claw damage.

Build is pretty flexible but you need:
a. Kalashtar and the Ectoplasmatic Fist Quori Shard
b. Strong Arm Craft and Battlefist
c. a way to get Expansion for 2 size increase
d. a way to get a cl 16+ Greater Mighty Wallop
e. a way to get improved natural attack

Now with all that together and applying the boni the most favourable way (Great Mighty Wallop comes first obviously for up to Colossal size) we have 9 size increases. I also assume we deal unarmed damage as a 20 level monk (one side could be a tashalatora mix for example ... Greater Mighty Wallop you could get from items or a friendly caster).

Now I know some people might disagree with me on that but from my calculations the size progression works that basically every two size increases the number of die doubles. (we can see that from the progression we know).

So we start off with 2d10->4d8->6d8->8d8->12d8->16d8->24d8->32d8->48d8->64d8

64d8 damage which gets doubled by using beaststrike and eldritch claws. So before anything (yes even without any of the claw damage, strength and other hokus pous) you already deal 128d8 damage or an average of 576.

Also a good arguement for using Tashalatora on the second side because Vampiric Claws will heal you for 50% of the damage or an average of 288 per attack (again before the claw damage).

The Claws will obviously have two size increase too from Tashalatora.

Go to town.

This is.. what... I don't even... How did we...

Okay. Back up. Kalashtar. Isn't that the host-species-for-the-Quori-who-can't-resist-Quori-control race? (When did I start playing a Jaffa?) And I don't even know what a Quori Shart is.

The graft and the battlefist, I'm familiar with.

At this point, I notice that you're combining Expansion (Psionics) with Mighty Wallop (Arcane Casting). Unless I'm using wands and/or dorjes, this means I need Warlock, Monk, Wizard/Sorcerer, and Psion/PsyWar in my build. That's... A lot.

Don't get me wrong. The outcome is indeed sick. I practically wouldn't even need the Eldritch Claws dice at the end of it. But getting there looks... Elaborate. Seriously elaborate. Outrageously complex.

Awesome. But complex.

[Feint's End]

At this point, I notice that you're combining Expansion (Psionics) with Mighty Wallop (Arcane Casting). Unless I'm using wands and/or dorjes, this means I need Warlock, Monk, Wizard/Sorcerer, and Psion/PsyWar in my build. That's... A lot.

The shard can be found in the ECS under Dragonshards (IIRC).

As for the build.

Actually you only need Monk 1 (take Kung Fu Genius for Synergy) / StP Erudite 19 (with Tashalatora) on one side of the Gestalt.

You will get everything you need from that -> Greater Mighty Wallop from Spell to Power, Expansion is on the powerlist anyways, unarmed strike as a 20 level monk

You could go even one step further and prestige away on the second side going 10 levels of slayer for example (or sanctified mind) and just pick up Monastic Trainig (the prequ. for Tashalatora) a second time to let the prc level scale with your monklevel too.

Assuming you go just go Warlock 20 // Monk 1 / Stp Erudite 10 / Slayer 9

you will end up with a Flurry (assuming your Dm lets you use Beaststrike in a Flurry ... that's some wanky territory) of +17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2

Add Snapkick for another attack and haste and you sit at 8 attacks or a potential of 4000-ish damage (maybe more like 5000-ish with the right claw damage and enhancements). Oh and you will heal for half of the damage using Vampiric Claws. If you get more feats somehow you could add Karmic Strike etc and add the masochist element to the build without a problem.

edit: note though that all of this is far from optimized. I just brought up some simple points. If I would get into really high op I'd use Ardent on the second side and get Greater Mighty Wallop from an StP Erudite per Psychic Chirurgy. Also the build would be entirely wisdom dependant through Intuitive Attack and a Shiba Protector dip.

[Red Fel]

The shard can be found in the ECS under Dragonshards (IIRC).

As for the build.

Actually you only need Monk 1 (take Kung Fu Genius for Synergy) / StP Erudite 19 (with Tashalatora) on one side of the Gestalt.

You will get everything you need from that -> Greater Mighty Wallop from Spell to Power, Expansion is on the powerlist anyways, unarmed strike as a 20 level monk

You could go even one step further and prestige away on the second side going 10 levels of slayer for example (or sanctified mind) and just pick up Monastic Trainig (the prequ. for Tashalatora) a second time to let the prc level scale with your monklevel too.

Assuming you go just go Warlock 20 // Monk 1 / Stp Erudite 10 / Slayer 9

you will end up with a Flurry (assuming your Dm lets you use Beaststrike in a Flurry ... that's some wanky territory) of +17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2

Add Snapkick for another attack.

edit: note though that all of this is far from optimized. I just brought up some simple points. If I would get into really high op I'd use Ardent on the second side and get Greater Mighty Wallop from an StP Erudite per Psychic Chirurgy. Also the build would be entirely wisdom dependant through Intuitive Attack and a Shiba Protector dip.

That's... Horribly awesome, and worries me substantially; I might actually have to put in a new table for it tonight.

[Feint's End]

That's... Horribly awesome, and worries me substantially; I might actually have to put in a new table for it tonight.

If you want I can write the whole build down somewhat more elegant and finished tomorrow (in about 24 hours). Everything I have done yet was just loud thinking and isn't very helpful without some order.

[Red Fel]

If you want I can write the whole build down somewhat more elegant and finished tomorrow (in about 24 hours). Everything I have done yet was just loud thinking and isn't very helpful without some order.

That would be very helpful, actually. I'd appreciate that.

In the meantime, I still have to fill out the feats on these bad boys, and I'm a bit overwhelmed with options. Any suggestions from the audience?

[bekeleven]

I'd do Warlock on one side and Full BAB 5/Enlightened Spirit 10/Shou Disciple 5 on the other side. That's 14d6 eldritch bast, 2d6 unarmed. Claw damage is 24d6 after Improved Natural Attack; you can get a lot better using items.

It's hard to top Enlightened Spirit when it comes to gestalt warlocks.

Ok, last try: Warlock 20 // Swordsage 4 / Binder 1 / Enlightened Spirit 4 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Legacy Champion 5

29 D6 EB Damage. With Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monk's Belt, unarmed damage of a 13th level monk.

[Red Fel]

Ok, last try: Warlock 20 // Swordsage 4 / Binder 1 / Enlightened Spirit 4 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Legacy Champion 5

29 D6 EB Damage. With Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monk's Belt, unarmed damage of a 13th level monk.

... what.

What is this I don't even -

Okay. Let me have a look.

On the left side, Warlock 20 gives me 9d6 EB. HFW gives me an additional 6d6 EB. Enlightened Spirit 4 gives me an additional 2d6 EB. That's 17 so far.

Then we have +2 levels of class features from UT, and +4 levels from LC, for a total of +6 levels of class features. Are we using those to advance Enlightened Spirit (and thus gain an additional 3d6 EB), Hellfire Warlock (and thus gain a hypothetical and whoppling 2d6 EB per level, for a total of 12d6), or Warlock (and thus gain the equivalent of Epic Warlock class features)? Given that you reached 29d6, I assume you mean to advance Hellfire Warlock. Ignoring for a moment the fact that that's a whopping boatload of damage, there's a certain cheese factor there, since the class itself has only 3 levels - I foresee book throwing, even though you're technically following RAW.

You also say I get, using SUS and Monk's Belt, unarmed damage of Monk 13. Let's see how that goes. The build has SS 4, getting me Monk 4 unarmed damage. The Belt adds 5, giving me Monk 9. SUS adds 4, getting me... Yup, Monk 13. And at Monk 13, my unarmed damage is... 2d6, same as every build on the list so far.

So, let's total up what this build adds. One, it adds massive EB damage, but does so via highly questionable cheese. Two, it adds Swordsage maneuvers, but since they're all front-loaded they only go up to 2nd-level. Three, it gets to the typical 2d6 unarmed damage that I see in each of these builds. It also requires skill tricks and a legacy item, some pretty major taxes, actually.

In a vacuum, and ignoring the LC/UT cheese, it's cake-taking. The fact that I could roll out 29d6 damage, for an average of 101.5, on each hit, before my unarmed damage or maneuvers, is obscene. But in practice, the cheese alone renders it borderline impracticable; the presence of skill trick and Legacy taxes renders it almost undesirable.

As a thought exercise, it's gorgeous; in practice, it's paying an awful lot for not as much. Compare the outcome to some of the other builds - I don't get as much EB damage, but I get more feats, or additional abilities, or in one case, spells, and I do so without cheese and without relying on Legacy items.

[Sith_Happens]

Just popping in to point out that once you throw in Hellfire Warlock, that hand of yours is burning red.:smallbiggrin:

[XmonkTad]

Shadow pouncing seems to be what you want. You can't really make an uberchaeger with Eldritch Claw warlock due to EC being light weapons. Since snap kick works with flash of sunset, that is shadow pounce lite (requiring only a 2 feat tax and flurry of blows rather than 4-5 levels).

While Gestalt is generally high powered, what power and level ranges are you looking for? 100+ average damage a round playable at levels 15-20? Any word on the rest of the party?

What is really messing up my creative juices is alignment issues. "Wouldn't Enlightened Spirit's aura of menace go great with hexblade's shadow familiar?" Nope, can't. Ah well.

Also, how close do you want to stick to the G Gundam theme? I once built an Ashtari master of radience/Cleric with sun and moon domains who ran around shouting "shining Finger" as she cut people with moonblade. That campaign was super low OP though.

[Red Fel]

Just popping in to point out that once you throw in Hellfire Warlock, that hand of yours is burning red.:smallbiggrin:

Good thing I have a playlist with both (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny24zPeQLks) themes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQgXvmtI_ug), huh?


Shadow pouncing seems to be what you want. You can't really make an uberchaeger with Eldritch Claw warlock due to EC being light weapons. Since snap kick works with flash of sunset, that is shadow pounce lite (requiring only a 2 feat tax and flurry of blows rather than 4-5 levels).

Yep, I remember observing that earlier.


While Gestalt is generally high powered, what power and level ranges are you looking for? 100+ average damage a round playable at levels 15-20? Any word on the rest of the party?

I'm going Bridezilla on this build - "It's all about me." I don't much care about the ultimate damage output, although bigger is generally better; I just want a build that's diverse enough to have a few tricks, while not so expansive as to require me to carry a library. And although party composition isn't set in stone, I imagine that certain shenanigans, such as Darkness and Chilling Tentacles, will cheese off melees.


What is really messing up my creative juices is alignment issues. "Wouldn't Enlightened Spirit's aura of menace go great with hexblade's shadow familiar?" Nope, can't. Ah well.

I know, right? What amuses me is that, out of all of the builds, the ES one is the only Good one; the rest either require Lawful, which means Evil, or non-Good, which also means Evil. And while I do enjoy a smug snake, I get the distinct feeling the character would be slightly more appreciated if he weren't a complete monster. I tend to play those somewhat convincingly.


Also, how close do you want to stick to the G Gundam theme? I once built an Ashtari master of radience/Cleric with sun and moon domains who ran around shouting "shining Finger" as she cut people with moonblade. That campaign was super low OP though.

First, that's awesome. Second, I wasn't actually going for a G Gundam theme; it was merely a point of comparison. Really, I was going for more of a wuxia theme, a martial artist with burning fists (or, in the case of an LE build, one of those sinister sorcerers in robes who constantly elude the hero until the last scene). It just made for a good title line, really. (Although I do see this character giving a "My love, my anger, and all of my sorrow" line in a climactic fight. Because epic.)

[Feint's End]

So I might not be right about this one (in fact if you guys cleared that already then just let me know) but you can't have Warlock on one side and Hellfire Warlock/Legacy Champion/Trickster on the other.
Hellfire Warlock advances the Warlock (you'd get 2 levels of invocations per 1 Characterlevel) and IIRC it is against the rules of Gestalt to advance the same "casting" on both sides.

[Forrestfire]

Actually, it just does nothing if the ability would be gained on both sides--just applies it once.

A hellfire warlock's progression is more than just the warlock, though, so you'll still get the hellfire blast progression, even if eldritch blast is only increased at the normal rate for warlock.

[Vanitas]

In Build 3, maybe you could drop Fighter for Battle Dancer. Gives you unarmed strike and Cha synergy. It might get you better unarmed damage than 2d6, since effective monk level is 14 with Battle Dancer 5/Shou Disciple 5 + Superior Unarmed Strike.

[Snowbluff]

Update - builds uploaded in the original post. Please take a peek, critiques welcomed - and I'm still missing feats!

You totally snubbed me, bro. :smalltongue:

[Red Fel]

So I might not be right about this one (in fact if you guys cleared that already then just let me know) but you can't have Warlock on one side and Hellfire Warlock/Legacy Champion/Trickster on the other.
Hellfire Warlock advances the Warlock (you'd get 2 levels of invocations per 1 Characterlevel) and IIRC it is against the rules of Gestalt to advance the same "casting" on both sides.


Actually, it just does nothing if the ability would be gained on both sides--just applies it once.

A hellfire warlock's progression is more than just the warlock, though, so you'll still get the hellfire blast progression, even if eldritch blast is only increased at the normal rate for warlock.

I have no idea. I just try to keep them on one side for cleanliness' sake.


In Build 3, maybe you could drop Fighter for Battle Dancer. Gives you unarmed strike and Cha synergy. It might get you better unarmed damage than 2d6, since effective monk level is 14 with Battle Dancer 5/Shou Disciple 5 + Superior Unarmed Strike.

I like Battle Dancer. Full BAB is nice, and the shared Monk progression is pretty sweet also. However, I notice two things. First, Fighter gives me the bonus feats I need to qualify for Shou, while still letting me take Eldritch Claws as soon as they're available. Battle Dancer gives me only one of the three feats needed; I would either have to take flaws, put off Eldritch Claws, or put off Shou to make up the difference. Second, Battle Dancer gives me an unarmed strike progression. However, that progression would not give me any advantage. Shou 5 gives me unarmed damage of 2d6. Shou 5 + BD 5 would give me BD 10 unarmed damage, which is 1d10 - less than I get from Shou alone. Basically, I would be giving up qualifying feats and delaying Eldritch Claws or Shou, and in exchange I would gain a few Tumble-based tricks. I don't think it works well.


You totally snubbed me, bro. :smalltongue:

I wouldn't call it "snubbing" per se; more like polite acknowledgement and hurried moving-on-before-anyone-notices. :smalltongue:

[Feint's End]

OK I hope you can format this properly because I have no clue about it.

Now without further ado let me present to you:


Shi Mulong, The Legendary Spirithunter

Kalashtar Warlock 20 // Monk 1/StP Erudite 5/Monk +1/Slayer 10/Erudite +3

Feats:
1) Kung Fu Genius, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monastic Training (Erudite)
2)Psicrystal Affinity (Hero Personality)
3)Eldritch Claws
6)Track, Practised Manifester (Erudite)
7)Monastic Training (Slayer)
9)Beaststrike
12)Tashalatora
15)Improved Natural Attack (Fists)
18)free feat

Others: Strong Arm Graft, Battlefist, Ectoplasmatic Fist Quori Shard
(note that pretty much all of the gear is part of your body (except argueably the Battlefist) so the whole build is entirely gear independant ... even the gear we have just increases the power)

About Invocations and Powers: Invocations are entirely free but I recommend sticking to stuff like flying. Since you are an StP Erudite you can have access to pretty much every arcane spell and power in the game (except for 9ths in the case of arcane spells and some powers) so just get the most fun buffs and go nuts. However there are two powers you will need for this build to work:
-Expansion (For 2 size increases)
-StP Greater Mighty Wallop (for 4 size increases)

Powers which are fun and I recommend:
-Dimension Hop
-Hustle
-Vampiric Claws
-Power Claws (though hardly necessary with the damage numbers you'll put out)

Now how the build works: Combining Battlefist, Ectoplasmatic Fist, Improved Natural Attack, Greater Mighty Wallop, Expansion you will have 9 size increases on your 2d10 unarmed damage. The chart of size increases works basically this way -> every two increases the amount doubles (we can see that from the size chart we know).
2d10->4d8->6d8->8d8->12d8->16d8->24d8->32d8->48d8->64d8

now we got 64d8 unarmed damage on a 20ft high monklike figure with a warforged arm and a giant fist. That's pretty nice. But wait! There is more!
Now we have Eldritch Claw which deals 10d6+unarmed damage and Beaststrike which adds Clawdamage to unarmed damage. See where I'm going there.

Even without any gear we look at an offense of 6 attacks á 10d6+128d8 damage (average of 611 damage per attack)

About defense: Well we have access to Inertial Armor, every important wizard and psionic buff and Int (should be second highest stat) to ac > our ac should be right up there

Saves are pretty decent too especially after applying the right buffs.

HP are not really a problem with Vigor and Share Pain on Psicrystal.

Some good defenses from the Warlock class.

OH and you have permanent Mind Blank (su) on top of that.


Some final thoughts: Note that the build is very shiftable. You could get Weaponfinesse on level 18 to cancel out strength as a feat (maybe get it earlier and swap another feat out for later) or Snap Kick for another attack (if flaws are in you can really go nuts with the build). Also never forget that you are basically a t1 caster after all so you can adapt to pretty much every situation (especially because you have access to Psychic Reformation so you can do it totally IC). On top of that you have some nice Invocations (like .... a whole progression actually) which just further increase your options.
It's also an option to get extend power and persist power (the 3.0 version which is RAW legal is ridiculously underpriced for what it does) and go full persist on everything.
Also don't forget that the build scales very good with gear. Torc of Power Preservation, Amulett of Natural Attacks and friends are all stuff you might want to get. But even without any gear the build works pretty well (Battlefist ist necessary to keep the high damage though)

So that's it I think. I hope you guys like it and if you have any questions feel free to ask. I could write pages about all the options in this build but I just thought I'd leave the basics and call it a day.

[Red Fel]

OK I hope you can format this properly because I have no clue about it.

Now without further ado let me present to you:


Shi Mulong, The Legendary Spirithunter

Whoa, fancy name.


Kalashtar Warlock 20 // Monk 1/StP Erudite 5/Monk +1/Slayer 10/Erudite +3

Feats:
1) Kung Fu Genius, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monastic Training (Erudite)
2)Psicrystal Affinity (Hero Personality)
3)Eldritch Claws
6)Track, Practised Manifester (Erudite)
7)Monastic Training (Slayer)
9)Beaststrike
12)Tashalatora
15)Improved Natural Attack (Fists)
18)free feat

Okay. I get KFG, IUS, Training, all good. Psicrystal, Claws, Track, Manifested, more Training, fine. I don't know what Beaststrike is or where it's from. Tashalatora is nice, but don't I have to designate which class stacks with Monk? Or does it automatically go for both? And is INA good, or would SUS be better? Or should I just take SUS as my free feat?


Others: Strong Arm Graft, Battlefist, Ectoplasmatic Fist Quori Shard
(note that pretty much all of the gear is part of your body (except argueably the Battlefist) so the whole build is entirely gear independant ... even the gear we have just increases the power)

About Invocations and Powers: Invocations are entirely free but I recommend sticking to stuff like flying. Since you are an StP Erudite you can have access to pretty much every arcane spell and power in the game (except for 9ths in the case of arcane spells and some powers) so just get the most fun buffs and go nuts. However there are two powers you will need for this build to work:
-Expansion (For 2 size increases)
-StP Greater Mighty Wallop (for 4 size increases)

Powers which are fun and I recommend:
-Dimension Hop
-Hustle
-Vampiric Claws
-Power Claws (though hardly necessary with the damage numbers you'll put out)

All makes sense.


Now how the build works: Combining Battlefist, Ectoplasmatic Fist, Improved Natural Attack, Greater Mighty Wallop, Expansion you will have 9 size increases on your 2d10 unarmed damage. The chart of size increases works basically this way -> every two increases the amount doubles (we can see that from the size chart we know).
2d10->4d8->6d8->8d8->12d8->16d8->24d8->32d8->48d8->64d8

now we got 64d8 unarmed damage on a 20ft high monklike figure with a warforged arm and a giant fist. That's pretty nice. But wait! There is more!
Now we have Eldritch Claw which deals 10d6+unarmed damage and Beaststrike which adds Clawdamage to unarmed damage. See where I'm going there.

Even without any gear we look at an offense of 6 attacks á 10d6+128d8 damage (average of 611 damage per attack)

... wow. Holy crumbs. Uh, isn't there some kind of size cap on the damage output of my unarmed strikes? Because that's just... Zoinks.


About defense: Well we have access to Inertial Armor, every important wizard and psionic buff and Int (should be second highest stat) to ac > our ac should be right up there

Saves are pretty decent too especially after applying the right buffs.

HP are not really a problem with Vigor and Share Pain on Psicrystal.

Some good defenses from the Warlock class.

OH and you have permanent Mind Blank (su) on top of that.

Yeah. Wow, chief, that's some serious firepower.


Some final thoughts: Note that the build is very shiftable. You could get Weaponfinesse on level 18 to cancel out strength as a feat (maybe get it earlier and swap another feat out for later) or Snap Kick for another attack (if flaws are in you can really go nuts with the build). Also never forget that you are basically a t1 caster after all so you can adapt to pretty much every situation (especially because you have access to Psychic Reformation so you can do it totally IC). On top of that you have some nice Invocations (like .... a whole progression actually) which just further increase your options.
It's also an option to get extend power and persist power (the 3.0 version which is RAW legal is ridiculously underpriced for what it does) and go full persist on everything.
Also don't forget that the build scales very good with gear. Torc of Power Preservation, Amulett of Natural Attacks and friends are all stuff you might want to get. But even without any gear the build works pretty well (Battlefist ist necessary to keep the high damage though)

That's insanely potent. I really don't know what else to say about it. Over 9000, how can this be, Kwisatz Haderach, all the words.


So that's it I think. I hope you guys like it and if you have any questions feel free to ask. I could write pages about all the options in this build but I just thought I'd leave the basics and call it a day.

Okay. Let's dive right in there.

One, the unarmed damage is off the charts. Really, this guy is a punching machine.

Two, he gets the full Warlock progression, which means he has his Eldritch Claw damage floating at a comfortable 9d6, plus some energy resistance, DR, that good stuff.

Three, Monk's unarmed progression, thanks to Training and Tasha keeps going.

Four, Erudite (and Slayer). Here's where we start to have words.

The first issue with Erudite is its BAB. Fortunately, this is a gestalt, so we use better BAB where we have it. Unfortunately, that "better" BAB comes primarily from Warlock and Monk, so it's, at best, 3/4 BAB until Slayer kicks in. That's not a crippling problem, but it does limit a few things.

The second issue with Erudite is powers. And this is the major one. Early in this thread, I was reluctant to accept Snowbluff's suggestions to bring arcane casters into the build, feeling they were too pewpew-y and not enough punchpunch-y. Erudite has that same flaw, writ large; the basic character premise is "guy who studies power, wearing little half-moon spectacles and reading books and scrolls." The basic premise of this build is "I set it on fire with my fists!"

Yes, an StP Erudite is my one-stop shop for every buff I could need for this character. But it's also extraordinarily powerful in its own right. Let's be honest; we could probably drop the left-hand side of the gestalt (Warlock levels) and still have a pretty potent build here. Monk/Erudite/Slayer is an impressive combo on its own; if anything, the Warlock levels feel like a cheap stand-in for something more useful, like something with better BAB or saves.

And let's not forget the bookkeeping. Part of the reason I like melee, and Warlocks, is the lack of extensive bookkeeping. I have 8 levels of Erudite here, and 10 levels of Slayer, 9 of which advance Erudite; I'm manifesting as a 17th-level Erudite, and that means... What, 250 pp, 31 powers known? Which means that, apart from those listed, I'd have to pick them out. And since I'm going StP, I'm not just picking from the usual list of powers, but from arcane spells. Any arcane spell. I am particularly reluctant to play a long-listed arcane caster for that specific reason.

So there's my dilemma. On the one hand, this build is so majestic it flies and sings on its own. On the other, oh mai gao the bookkeeping.

[Snowbluff]

I call shenanigans! You said my build was too castery, but this guy is doing the same thing! It even uses Greater Mighty Wallop and size increases. :smallsigh:

Beast Strike is from Dragon Magazine. It adds your claw damage to an unarmed strike. It was the premise of my build.

[bekeleven]

I call shenanigans! You said my build was too castery, but this guy is doing the same thing! It even uses Greater Mighty Wallop and size increases. :smallsigh:

To be specific, it uses GMW to increase size damage past colossal. Also, takes Improved Natural Attack (Fists) to pump unarmed damage, which doesn't work.

I didn't read through the rest of the build yet. If you're building a Tier 0, why do you have to pull shenanigans?

[Red Fel]

I call shenanigans! You said my build was too castery, but this guy is doing the same thing! It even uses Greater Mighty Wallop and size increases. :smallsigh:

And you'll note that I rejected it for the same reasons. I even cited your post.

See? Respect.


To be specific, it uses GMW to increase size damage past colossal. Also, takes Improved Natural Attack (Fists) to pump unarmed damage, which doesn't work.

I didn't read through the rest of the build yet. If you're building a Tier 0, why do you have to pull shenanigans?

Yeah, I noticed that we were passing the size cap, there. I remember that from earlier in the thread. And I didn't think INA (unarmed strikes) actually existed; I thought INA only worked for the more "traditional" natural attacks, like slam, bite, or claw. Especially when one considers that natural attacks are on a non-iterative scheme, whereas unarmed strikes are iteratives.

Yet another reason that, while I'm wowed by the damage, I'm just not sold.


Beast Strike is from Dragon Magazine. It adds your claw damage to an unarmed strike. It was the premise of my build.

Ooh, good to know. But... Hmm. Eldritch Claw already adds unarmed damage to the claw attack. I don't know that adding Beast Strike actually does anything, unless...

Oh mai gao.


On a successful attack with an eldritch claw, you deal your normal amount of unarmed strike damage plus your eldritch blast damage.

When you make an unarmed strike . . . to deal damage, you may add your claw or slam damage to your unarmed trike . . . damage.

So, my Eldritch Claws deal Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Blast damage. My Unarmed Strike deals Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Claws damage. It ends up looking something like this. Eldritch Claws = Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Blast Unarmed Strike = Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Claws = Unarmed Strike + (Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Blast) Eldritch Claws = (Unarmed Strike + Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Blast) + Eldritch Blast And so on...
It's Claw-ception!
(Just pretend that entire last part was blue-text.)

[Feint's End]

To be specific, it uses GMW to increase size damage past colossal. Also, takes Improved Natural Attack (Fists) to pump unarmed damage, which doesn't work.

I didn't read through the rest of the build yet. If you're building a Tier 0, why do you have to pull shenanigans?

OK so I have to defend the size increases I see. OK basically greater mighty wallop is used to increase size to colossal. Everything else I apply after that by the ruling that you can apply Boni the way it works best (which has been clarified several times on this very forums). Also they are just virtual size increases and in fact there are bigger size categories namely colossal + found in the epic level handbook. So here is no official cap to size. You may argue about the way I calculate the size but it makes sense from a mathematical standpoint and i stand by it.

second yes improved natural attack works on monks (specifically monks) unarmed strikes because those count as manufactured and natural weapons at the same time (has also been clarified several times not only on these forums).

I still stand by the point that the whole build is entirely raw legal.

So now move on. Sus does nothing for us since we already have level 20 monk damage. Ina i just put in for completeness sake but you can get the feat for 10000 g and fanged ring. I merely took it to show the build is almost gear independent.

About the erudite part. You might be right on this one. If customitems are in then I could turn the build much more combat focused with maybe psywar or something like that. Sadly without greater mighty wallop you just get up to 32d8+10d6 which is still respectable in my bookbut not quite as hilarious.

[Snowbluff]

To be specific, it uses GMW to increase size damage past colossal. Also, takes Improved Natural Attack (Fists) to pump unarmed damage, which doesn't work.

I didn't read through the rest of the build yet. If you're building a Tier 0, why do you have to pull shenanigans?
Indeed. GMWal has a cap on the size. Expansion might work afterwards, but that's iffy.

And you'll note that I rejected it for the same reasons. I even cited your post.

See? Respect. :smalltongue:


So, my Eldritch Claws deal Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Blast damage. My Unarmed Strike deals Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Claws damage. It ends up looking something like this. Eldritch Claws = Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Blast Unarmed Strike = Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Claws = Unarmed Strike + (Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Blast) Eldritch Claws = (Unarmed Strike + Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Blast) + Eldritch Blast And so on...
It's Claw-ception!


That aside, I have to point out that this is not recursive for posterity. Your claw damage is separate, and is added when you hit. :smallsmile:

[Red Fel]

OK so I have to defend the size increases I see. OK basically greater mighty wallop is used to increase size to colossal. Everything else I apply after that by the ruling that you can apply Boni the way it works best (which has been clarified several times on this very forums). Also they are just virtual size increases and in fact there are bigger size categories namely colossal + found in the epic level handbook. So here is no official cap to size. You may argue about the way I calculate the size but it makes sense from a mathematical standpoint and i stand by it.

I'm not arguing the calculations. I'm questioning whether, at least pre-Epic, it's even possible for me to be wielding Colossal++ unarmed strikes. It's awesome, but it's a bit... Too awesome, you know?


second yes improved natural attack works on monks (specifically monks) unarmed strikes because those count as manufactured and natural weapons at the same time (has also been clarified several times not only on these forums).

Did not know that, thanks for the info.


So now move on. Sus does nothing for us since we already have level 20 monk damage. Ina i just put in for completeness sake but you can get the feat for 10000 g and fanged ring. I merely took it to show the build is almost gear independent.

Makes sense.


About the erudite part. You might be right on this one. If customitems are in then I could turn the build much more combat focused with maybe psywar or something like that. Sadly without greater mighty wallop you just get up to 32d8+10d6 which is still respectable in my bookbut not quite as hilarious.

"Just" 32d8+10d6. "Just." There's nothing "just" about dealing 179 damage with an unarmed strike.


Indeed. GMWal has a cap on the size. Expansion might work afterwards, but that's iffy.

Yeah. I like the level of awesome, but I err on the conservative side when it comes to rules interpretation.


That aside, I have to point out that this is not recursive for posterity. Your claw damage is separate, and is added when you hit. :smallsmile:

So how does it work, then? Eldritch Claws says that I deal Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Blast. Beast Strike says I add my claw damage to my Unarmed Strike. So does that basically mean I add EB twice? Or what?

Oh, wait. On re-reading, I think I've figured it out. Eldritch Claws gives me two natural weapon claw strikes, calculated as unarmed + EB for damage. Beast Strike lets me convert them into unarmed strikes, which gets me iteratives, and still deals my unarmed + EB damage. Is that right?

[Feint's End]

I'm not arguing the calculations. I'm questioning whether, at least pre-Epic, it's even possible for me to be wielding Colossal++ unarmed strikes. It's awesome, but it's a bit... Too awesome, you know?

"Just" 32d8+10d6. "Just." There's nothing "just" about dealing 179 damage with an unarmed strike.

So how does it work, then? Eldritch Claws says that I deal Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Blast. Beast Strike says I add my claw damage to my Unarmed Strike. So does that basically mean I add EB twice? Or what?

Oh, wait. On re-reading, I think I've figured it out. Eldritch Claws gives me two natural weapon claw strikes, calculated as unarmed + EB for damage. Beast Strike lets me convert them into unarmed strikes, which gets me iteratives, and still deals my unarmed + EB damage. Is that right?

You know I don't have the reference now but I'll open a thread to look for the applying on Boni the most favourable way possible and then post it here :smallsmile:. I hope i can sort it that eay. My main point now is that I want to prove the build is raw legal and needs no shady interpretations.

Also there is no official size cap so I suppose you could just go on increasing it and I merely took the epic level handbook as an example to show that wotc indeed considered bigger size categories and that those shown in the ph are merely the most common ones.
It maybe comes closest to epic uses of skills and it's widely agreed on that those are possible before epic (IIRC).

Eldritch Claws is clawdamage= Eldritch blast + unarmed damage
Unarmed damage = unarmed damage
Enter Beast strike
Unarmed damage = unarmed damage + clawdamage
>>unarmed damage = unarmed damage X2 + Eldritch blast damage
That should explain everything

OK then I will rework the build into something more combat focused using psywar and soul eater or so.

Ps: I'm on my phone right now so forgive me if my writing is a little off.

[Red Fel]

Okay, so with regard to feats I'm thinking I should add Beast Strike (awesome suggestion, thanks for that) to every build. I'm also thinking I should throw Sun School into Build #3 (Build #2 doesn't need it, because Shadow Pounce, and Build #1 has it); I'm also thinking Maximize SLA (EB) in every build, especially when one considers that the boosts from Enlightened Spirit and Hellfire Warlock simply increase EB dice, rather than being separate powers; likely Quicken SLA (Flee the Scene) for teleport-shenanigans; and perhaps Martial Study (Shadow Blink) for any builds that don't natively get Swordsage maneuvers.

With regard to Build #3, which has one more Fighter level than is reasonable, I currently have two options:
1. I can drop one level of Fighter and throw on a level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, possibly with Whirling Frenzy or Ferocity. Easy choice.
2. I can move my Binder dip from the left side of the gestalt to the right. This will likely lower my BAB by one, but it will enable me to take yet another Warlock level, netting me another 1d6 on my EB dice.

Thoughts?

[D4rkh0rus]

Hm... Heres an idea. Claws! claws everywhere! and fangs!

Raptoran

Warlock 20//Ranger 1/Monk 1/Barbarian 1 (pounce & Whirling Frenzy)/Monk 2/ Unarmed Swordsage 1/Stormtalon 7/Unarmed Swordsage +1/Black Blood Cultist 4/Unarmed Swordsage +3

(If your DM enforces alignments then do ranger 1/barbarian 1/Unarmed Swordsage 7)


Feats: (2 flaws)
1 Extra Rage
1 Power Attack
1 Improved Bull rush
3 Reckless Rage
6 Beast Strike
9 Shock Trooper
12 Snap Kick
15 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18 (Dunno, Choose Something)

Ranger 1 -> Track
Unarmed Swordsage 1 -> Improved Unarmed Strike (if you got 2 of these, trade them away)
Monk 1 -> Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting
Monk 2 -> Versatile Unarmed Strike
Stormtalon 2 Multiattack
Stormtalon 4 Improved Flight
Stormtalon 6 Flyby Attack


With this you get:

4 Iteratives (If I read Gestalt Rules correctly, taking the best BaB each level means that you should end up with 20 BaB)
+ 3 (Two-weapon fighting, Gloves of the balanced hand, Greater two weapon fighting)
+ 1 (Snap Kick)
+ 1 (Whirling Frenzy)
+ 1 (UMD'd Haste)
+ 1 Necklace of natural attacks with speed enhancement

normally you would get 9 attacks, but +2 if haste and speed are there, leaving it at 11 attacks (Unarmed strike)

Now, Stormtalon gives you 2 natural foot talon attacks, ans black Blood Cultist gives you 2 claw attacks and a bite attack while raging (Im unsure wether you can take your claw attacks WITH your unarmed strikes, DM decision? dunno..)

So, 2 + 1 = 3

so normally you would have 12 attacks, +2 from haste/speed can make it go to 14, and if you CAN use the claw attacks given by BBC then its +2 meaning you get 16 Attacks total...

You can shocktrooper 16 normal attacks, adding warlock stuff to them, and you can do so diving for x2 dmg (versatile unarmed strike -> piercing) and add in valorous to your necklace of natural attacks for x3 charge modifier.

For extra kung-fu awesomeness, fluff it that not only do your claws gloooow but your feet glow too (no actual combat bonus, just glowing) as you use martial arts to creating a whirling tornado of death. yes.


As a last note, Boots of the battle charger effectively means 2/day kill something in 1 round. (move into airspace, dive down)




Also... Full warlock progression.

no hellfire warlock on it cuz i read somewhere that hellfire doesn't work with claws.

[XmonkTad]

With regard to Build #3, which has one more Fighter level than is reasonable, I currently have two options:
1. I can drop one level of Fighter and throw on a level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, possibly with Whirling Frenzy or Ferocity. Easy choice.
2. I can move my Binder dip from the left side of the gestalt to the right. This will likely lower my BAB by one, but it will enable me to take yet another Warlock level, netting me another 1d6 on my EB dice.

Thoughts?

1) Does the replacement dip need to be full BAB? If so, a barbarian varient is probably the way to go. If not, then monk, because sun school needs Flurry of Blows as a pre-req. I feel like fighter in general is kind of meh in general, but swashbuckler wouldn't do anything for you, nor would knight or duskblade. And of course hexblade is out even though it synergizes the best.
2) The difference between 20 BAB and 19 BAB is not really that big. You're not giving up an extra attack, after all. Build three seems to be based around EB, so more of that is probably good.

Quick note about my build: you cant take sun school at 6th. It has a BAB requirement. I love and hate that feat so much. Really, if you can get sun school and snap kick onto build 3, that one looks the best to me. Cleric will land you too much bookkeeping. Then again, how do you feel about ur-priest? Monk 5/Ur-priest 2/Sacred Fist 10 leaves enough room for hellfire warlock on the other side and gets 9th level spells, but fewer of them.

[Red Fel]

Dreadfully elaborate build.

... What, no Eldritch Claws?


With this you get:

4 Iteratives (If I read Gestalt Rules correctly, taking the best BaB each level means that you should end up with 20 BaB)
+ 3 (Two-weapon fighting, Gloves of the balanced hand, Greater two weapon fighting)
+ 1 (Snap Kick)
+ 1 (Whirling Frenzy)
+ 1 (UMD'd Haste)
+ 1 Necklace of natural attacks with speed enhancement

normally you would get 9 attacks, but +2 if haste and speed are there, leaving it at 11 attacks (Unarmed strike)

That's a lot of attacks.


Now, Stormtalon gives you 2 natural foot talon attacks, ans black Blood Cultist gives you 2 claw attacks and a bite attack while raging (Im unsure wether you can take your claw attacks WITH your unarmed strikes, DM decision? dunno..)

Beast Strike allows me to stack my claws on top of my unarmed strikes. Unfortunately, I'm reasonably certain that the claw attacks I gain from BBC don't stack with the ones I gain from Eldritch Claws - how exactly do I grow a second set of claws, anyway?

Further, Eldritch Claws does not empower my foot attacks, or a bite - it's specifically claws coming out of the hands. So all that extra stuff is, well, extraneous. I'm already reluctant for the same reason I wasn't a fan of the Totemist build proposed earlier.


so normally you would have 12 attacks, +2 from haste/speed can make it go to 14, and if you CAN use the claw attacks given by BBC then its +2 meaning you get 16 Attacks total...

You can shocktrooper 16 normal attacks, adding warlock stuff to them, and you can do so diving for x2 dmg (versatile unarmed strike -> piercing) and add in valorous to your necklace of natural attacks for x3 charge modifier.

So, which attacks are we counting? The various natural weapon attacks that can't be empowered by my Eldritch Claws, the claws that don't stack with my Eldritch Claws, or the unarmed strikes? I've lost track.


As a last note, Boots of the battle charger effectively means 2/day kill something in 1 round. (move into airspace, dive down)

Good to know.


no hellfire warlock on it cuz i read somewhere that hellfire doesn't work with claws.

I can find nothing to support that. Hellfire just says that it increases the power of my Eldritch Blast. Eldritch Claws says that the Eldritch Blast becomes a claw attack. Thus, Hellfire Eldritch Blast becomes Hellfire Eldritch Claws. Seems to work for me.


1) Does the replacement dip need to be full BAB? If so, a barbarian varient is probably the way to go. If not, then monk, because sun school needs Flurry of Blows as a pre-req. I feel like fighter in general is kind of meh in general, but swashbuckler wouldn't do anything for you, nor would knight or duskblade. And of course hexblade is out even though it synergizes the best.
2) The difference between 20 BAB and 19 BAB is not really that big. You're not giving up an extra attack, after all. Build three seems to be based around EB, so more of that is probably good.

I happen to agree that, if I want full BAB, I should go with Spirit Lion Totem Barb. I happen to like it anyway. You're right with regard to Sun School. I got so excited about the effect that I forgot the prereqs. And I think you're right about EB > BAB here.

Basically, it boils down to this. I could take Spirit Lion Totem Barb, get Pounce and +1 BAB; or I could take Monk, get Sun School, etc. I'd probably lose a point of BAB, but Sun School. Which raises the question: Which is better?

Pounce requires me to move at least 10 feet in a straight line, gives me my full attack, but lets me make no further actions. Sun School merely requires me to teleport, which means it can basically be used at any time, and gives me a free hit, rather than a full attack. It's a question of whether I want to do my full damage, or do this trick anytime. I don't know the answer to that one.

In theory, I could drop three levels of Fighter instead of one, and do everything - take one of Barb, one of Monk, and swap Binder across. I'd lose a Fighter feat, and probably an additional point of BAB, but it's early enough in the build that I can still meet the Shou prereqs comfortably. And it would get me everything - the Pounce, the Flurry, and the extra 1d6 on EB. Thoughts?


Quick note about my build: you cant take sun school at 6th. It has a BAB requirement. I love and hate that feat so much. Really, if you can get sun school and snap kick onto build 3, that one looks the best to me. Cleric will land you too much bookkeeping. Then again, how do you feel about ur-priest? Monk 5/Ur-priest 2/Sacred Fist 10 leaves enough room for hellfire warlock on the other side and gets 9th level spells, but fewer of them.

Yeah, I'm thinking Sun School and Snap Kick are pretty good choices. I agree about avoiding spell-based bookkeeping. Alas, that also leaves out Ur-Priest.

I'll probably make those changes you suggest sometime this evening after taking a closer look at feats and prereqs.

[Vanitas]

I can find nothing to support that. Hellfire just says that it increases the power of my Eldritch Blast. Eldritch Claws says that the Eldritch Blast becomes a claw attack. Thus, Hellfire Eldritch Blast becomes Hellfire Eldritch Claws. Seems to work for me.


Snowbluff has been saying non-stop that it does not work, but he has never said why (or at least I never saw it). I think that's what this guy read.

[Red Fel]

Snowbluff has been saying non-stop that it does not work, but he has never said why (or at least I never saw it). I think that's what this guy read.

I... Think I missed that. Snowbluff, chime in?

Other notes:
- Looking back over the builds, Build #1 qualifies for Sun School when it takes it (BAB > +4, Flurry of Blows get). It can get it at level 6. Unless there are other reqs I'm missing.
- Still curious on thoughts re: Build #3, drop three levels of Fighter, take one Barb, one Monk, swap Binder across and replace it with Warlock. Any ideas there?

Right now, I'm somewhere between builds 2 and 3. Show Pounce is sick, but full EB is pretty awesome too. I'm open to suggestions and observations.

[Snowbluff]

Snowbluff has been saying non-stop that it does not work, but he has never said why (or at least I never saw it). I think that's what this guy read.

My reasoning is that you use Hellfire Blast as a part of using a normal Eldritch Blast (normally a standard action). Eldritch Claws is a different ability, that deals your normal eldritch blast damage. Therefore, I consider it too iffy to condone in a RAW discussion.

[Red Fel]

My reasoning is that you use Hellfire Blast as a part of using a normal Eldritch Blast (normally a standard action). Eldritch Claws is a different ability, that deals your normal eldritch blast damage. Therefore, I consider it too iffy to condone in a RAW discussion.

Hmm... Interesting interpretation.

My instinct was otherwise. I looked at the following text:

Whenever you use your eldritch blast ability, you can change your eldritch blast into a hell fire blast. A hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level.
From this, I inferred that it simply lets you add bonus damage to your existing Eldritch Blast. Eldritch Blast damage then translates directly to Eldritch Claws.

If, however, we interpret Hellfire Blast as a separate ability, that deals damage on top of (instead of in addition to) Eldritch Blast damage, or one that changes Eldritch Blast into something completely different (thus taking it out of the purview of Eldritch Claws), I agree that HFB damage, if not the EB altogether, no longer translates to Eldritch Claws.

... Hmm. That interpretation really, substantially nerfs the entire build, when you think about it. At max Warlock levels, you deal 9d6 damage. You can throw on +5d6 from Enlightened Spirit (which explicitly says "Your Eldritch Blast damage increases," so it's RAW-kosher). Grab another +2d6 from a Greater Fell Chasuble, so at this point you're at 16d6.

That costs 10 levels and an item, contrasted with three levels - sorry, four levels if we count the Binder dip - to get +6d6, which brings you to 15d6 EB, without Enlightened Spirit or the scarf. Yeah. That loss hurts. But you have a point with regard to the RAW - it's arguable. And by my own admission, I prefer to err on the side of a conservative interpretation of RAW.

I think the outcome is this - I can either (1) go back and restructure all of these builds to integrate Enlightened Spirit instead of Hellfire Warlock; (2) scrap the project, because without the added EB damage the Clawlock becomes somewhat lackluster; or (3) caveat the build.

I choose (3). This build thread is now subject to the following caveat: We will assume, for purposes of this thread, that Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire Blast class ability stacks with Eldritch Blast for purposes of the Eldritch Claws feat.

There! Problem solved. Probably.

Admittedly, this entire build is subject to the assumption that the DM will allow (1) gestalt, (2) two Dragon Magazine feats, and (3) 3.0 material at his table. So assuming he'll also permit HFW to add to EC is not, at this point, a stretch.

[Snowbluff]

I can dig it. I usually post assumptions about RAW-iffy things in my OP when doing stuff like this.

It not working isn't terrible. Think about the EB as an accessory rather than the basis for the Beast Strike combo I suggested. Like Sneak Attack, you get some good extra damage per hit.

[Red Fel]

I can dig it. I usually post assumptions about RAW-iffy things in my OP when doing stuff like this.

It not working isn't terrible. Think about the EB as an accessory rather than the basis for the Beast Strike combo I suggested. Like Sneak Attack, you get some good extra damage per hit.

See, that's just it. If I think about EB as the bonus rather than the focus, it's basically just "Monk Plus" or "Unarmed Fighter Plus" or "Unarmed Swordsage Plus." I suppose I can accept that notion, but it becomes a bit underwhelming.

Then again, the plus is nice, and comes with other invocations, so I could get used to that.

It also occurs to me that, with regard to Build #3, the proposed Monk dip won't work without some alignment hijinks, because:
1. Monk is Lawful.
2. Enlightened Spirit is CG.
3. Barbarian (if we throw a dip in) is also non-Lawful.
The solution, as you pointed out early in the thread, Snowbluff, is to start with the level of Monk and be Lawful, then suffer some kind of nervous breakdown and be chaotic.

The problem with that, however, is that Warlock requires either Chaotic or Evil to begin with. So either I generate this character as an LE Warlock//Monk who suddenly becomes CG, or I put a level of Monk on the left side, before the Warlock levels begin. Which throws off my feat plans substantially - I think it pushes back my ability to qualify for Eldritch Claws.

In short, I don't think Build #3 can take Sun School at all, given the hurdles I'd have to leap through to get the alignments straight.