[PF] Ninja Monk worth it?

[Starscream]

In Pathfinder, I've heard that one alternative to doing a straight ninja build is to take 4 levels of monk first. This allows you to base your Ki pool on Wisdom and dump Charisma. It's also a decent way to make a monk-like character work, since you can dump strength and do most of your damage with Sneak Attack. Also, your three important stats would be Dex, Con, and Wis, the stats which directly impact your saving throws.

Going through the list, it looks like you'd gain quite a bit by going monk/ninja instead of just straight ninja, but you'd lose some significant things as well.

Here's the results over 20 levels, and I'd like to know if you think it's worth it.

You'd Lose:
*2d6 sneak attack
(averaging 7 damage)

*2 Ninja Tricks

*No Trace +6
(who cares, right?)

*Hidden Master

*16 Skill Ranks
(okay, that's a serious ouch for a skilmonkey)

*Ki Pool comes 2 levels later

You'd Gain:
*+3 Fort, +2 Ref, +3 Will

*2 Bonus Feats
(limited list, but probably makes up for losing one of the ninja tricks)

*Evasion
(there's your other trick; you were probably going to pick this up anyway. And you'll get it at level 2, not 10, since it's a Master Trick)

*Flurry of Blows
(stacks with extra attack from Ki Pool)

*1d8 Unarmed Damage

*+1 AC and Wisdom bonus to AC. Can also spend Ki for another +4

*Stunning Fist
(8/day eventually)

*Improved Unarmed Strike

*+10 ft Speed
(stacks with speed boost from Ki Pool)

*Still Mind

*Slow Fall 20 ft

*Maneuver Training
(Amounts to a +1 CMB)

...Any takers? You certainly get a lot of goodies, but monks have always had a variety of neat stuff, it just isn't enough to make up for their deficiencies. And of course, any multiclass build needs to take into account the fact that even if you DO keep a certain feature, you are getting it later than you otherwise would (though Evasion eight levels earlier is a nice exception).

Overall I think it has promise. I'd love to hear what you guys think.

[Bigbeefie]

I dont think it is worth it. Are you using Unarmed attacks? If so why?

You can't Flurry with most good Ninja Weapons.

A ninja uses Cha and a Monk uses Wis for the Ki pool totals. You also dont get monk Ki till level 4 so you have 4 levels you wont be getting KI.

You will need a Good Dex, wis, cha, str, and Con for a hybrid Nin and monk

Stunning fist is a fort save which is good against casters but so is assassinate and use poison.

The 2 feats are from a really limited list.

Manuever training....you need both good Wis and Str for this and a +1 isnt going to be a great help you need +4 or better as maneuvers are difficult to pull off with a lower BAB.

Slowfall of 20 feet means you take 2d6 damage less but have to be near a surface to "ride" down.

Overall I believe you will have a stong Ninja and just hurt it worst by taking monk levels.

If you wanna dip something:
Fighter is a good one to dip a level or 2.
Viv Alchemist for more sneak attack, mutagen, and a few potions.
Ranger for a Favored Enemy at First level and a free style feat at 2nd level +full BaB

[Person_Man]

Thoughts:

On the Monks side, you can get Ki pretty efficiently from Hungry Ghost Archetype.

On the Ninja side, you'd still be Cha dependent for Tricks with a Saving Throw. You could choose not to use them of course, but it takes some of your better options off the table.

There's are a few magic items and spells related to Ki - Ring of Ki Mastery, Ki Mat, Necklace of Ki Serenity, Ki Leech (which you could put in a wand), and probably a few others I'm missing.

Multiclassing nerfs anything that's calculated based on your level, such as the duration and effectiveness of some Tricks, and any Saving Throw calculation.

By level 10ish+ a strait Ninja or Monk will have a Ki pool of 10-14ish. So you can go through through 1-4 combats using all your best Ki powers every round for the first 1-4 rounds (which is when everything really gets decided).

Consider taking Bewildering Koan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bewildering-koan-general), which is awesome.

In Pathfinder, you get your best class abilities at level 10+. Multi-classing kills your Capstone, and probably prevents you from getting additional advanced tricks or other similarly more potent class abilities. So while a Monk 4/Ninja 4 is probably superior to a Monk 8 or Ninja 8, a Monk 4/Ninja 16 is probably inferior to a Monk 20 or Ninja 20. In between, it's a toss up depending on your exact level and build choices.

[Starscream]

A ninja uses Cha and a Monk uses Wis for the Ki pool totals. You also dont get monk Ki till level 4 so you have 4 levels you wont be getting KI.

From the SRD:
"If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool."

So your monk ki pool and ninja ki pool stack, and you pick which ability mod you want to use, Wis or Cha.


You will need a Good Dex, wis, cha, str, and Con for a hybrid Nin and monk

Won't need charisma anymore; see above. Won't need strength for the same reason a ninja/rogue doesn't; most of your damage will be sneak attack.

[Ravens_cry]

Won't need charisma anymore; see above. Won't need strength for the same reason a ninja/rogue doesn't; most of your damage will be sneak attack.
Adding Dex to damage is also only a +1 cost enchantment. This is great when you face things immune to sneak attack.

[Thrair]

I don't know if a melee build is improved by the dip. You might be better off as straight monk or straight ninja.


That said, if you're going to do it, look into the "Flurry of Stars" trick. Nothing in the text says you can't combine it with Monk Flurry or TWF. That's a lot of shuriken.

You could make a passable ranged sneak attack build that way, especially with Hide in Plain Sight.

[Artillery]

Adding Dex to damage is also only a +1 cost enchantment. This is great when you face things immune to sneak attack.

In pathfinder what things are immune to sneak attack? You can sneak attack both constructs and undead, is there anything else?

[Kudaku]

It would delay the Improved Invisibility Trick (Vanishing Blade) to level 14... That alone makes me incredibly reluctant to consider this dip.

Edit: There are some creature types that are still immune to sneak attacks - not many though. I believe elementals are one of them, as is ooze.

Edit Edit: Just checked: All creatures with an elemental subtype, all types of ooze, and all incorporeal creatures are immune to sneak attacks by default.

[Bigbeefie]

From the SRD:
"If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool."

So your monk ki pool and ninja ki pool stack, and you pick which ability mod you want to use, Wis or Cha.

Won't need charisma anymore; see above. Won't need strength for the same reason a ninja/rogue doesn't; most of your damage will be sneak attack.

Well and good but as l monk doesn't give access to a ki pool till level 4. Means 3 levels it isn't granting a ki pool. You have to have sufficient levels in the class before it grants kid pool.

You can forget about manuvers if you drop strip STR as well.

[Ravens_cry]

Well and good but as l monk doesn't give access to a ki pool till level 4. Means 3 levels it isn't granting a ki pool. You have to have sufficient levels in the class before it grants kid pool.

You can forget about manuvers if you drop strip STR as well.
Funny thing is, Weapon Finesse adds Dex instead of strength for combat manoeuvres that use attack rolls, like Trip. Since you are almost certainly going to have Weapon Finesse anyway . . .

[Psyren]

I would say no. If you want an unarmed Ninja, there are the UCT and UCM ninja tricks for that.

The AC bonus I see as a wash - a Ninja can simply wear light armor for even more AC and dump Wis, rather than going unarmored and making himself MAD for a tiny bonus. Those valuable stat points can then go to pumping Dex/Cha instead. The higher skill points means you can more safely leave Int low (10-12) as well.

Flurry is just TWF in PF.

Now, the bonus feats. Those are indeed nice and are the best reason to dip monk. But the problem is that every level of monk you take delays your access to master tricks, and that is truly where the ninja shines, most notably with abilities like Invisible Blade, Opportunist and Skill Mastery.


Funny thing is, Weapon Finesse adds Dex instead of strength for combat manoeuvres that use attack rolls, like Trip. Since you are almost certainly going to have Weapon Finesse anyway . . .

And for the rest there is Agile Maneuvers.

[Ravens_cry]

And for the rest there is Agile Maneuvers.
True, but, featwise, it's more efficient to focus on maneuvers that can be done that way, especially if you are focusing on a specific maneuver AND two weapon fighting.

[Starscream]

I would say no. If you want an unarmed Ninja, there are the UCT and UCM ninja tricks for that.

Hmmm, by RAW can the damage from UCM be boosted with a Monk's Robe? Does the fact that the ninja gets damage "as if she were a monk of her ninja level –4" count, or do you need actual levels of actual monk?

[grarrrg]

You'd Lose:
*No Trace +6
(who cares, right?)

*Hidden Master

*Ki Pool comes 2 levels later

Technically you only lose '+1' of No Trace.

Hidden Master is a big loss, so for a full 20 level build you may want to stick to Ninja 20, if NOT getting to 20, then Monk 4/Ninja X is decent enough.

You can take 2 levels of Ninja first, then go Monk 4.
Either way, you won't get 'stacking' Ki Pools until level 6.


You'd Gain:
*2 Bonus Feats
(limited list, but probably makes up for losing one of the ninja tricks)
The 2 feats are from a really limited list.

Have you seen just how many Monk archetypes change up the Bonus Feat list!?
You can very easily find 2 feats for your build (ignoring prerequisites no less!!).


*1d8 Unarmed Damage
*Still Mind

Throw on Monastic Legacy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monastic-legacy-combat), now you'll get up to 2d6 Unarmed damage.

[Fellfire]

I would say no. If you want an unarmed Ninja, there are the UCT and UCM ninja tricks for that.


What are UCT and UCM?

[DedWards]

The 4 level Monk, then full on Ninja is, imo, for two reasons only:

1) Unarmed combat (I believe sneak attack dice does get added)
2) More efficient Ki pool.

The latter makes Forgotten Trick more viable.

Biggest loss is the delay of Invisible Blade to level 14.


This guide goes over the Ninja build options quite nicely:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEZyEP-yooZdGprglxcEorpL_EnPfUqr6M89uHmF8Bo/mobilebasic?pli=1

[animewatcha]

Does ninja have the same 'centered' ki rules as monk? In that need to be unarmored to be able to use ki abilities?

[DedWards]

Does ninja have the same 'centered' ki rules as monk? In that need to be unarmored to be able to use ki abilities?

Just reread both classes Ki abilities. Neither say that the character needs to be unarmored to use Ki.

[animewatcha]

Must have been thinking the DDO game then.

[Firest Kathon]

In pathfinder what things are immune to sneak attack? You can sneak attack both constructs and undead, is there anything else?
Elementals and incorporeal undead come to mind. Also concelament prevents sneak attacks unless you are an Unchained Rogue.

[DedWards]

Elementals and incorporeal undead come to mind. Also concelament prevents sneak attacks unless you are an Unchained Rogue.

I did a quick search on what's immune to Sneak Attack:

Ooze Type
Elemental Subtype
Incorporeal Subtype
Plant Type

Basically anything without a discernible anatomy / weak points.

There may also be specific abilities that protect the creature from Sneak Attacks. Uncanny Dodgy and Improved Uncanny Dodge come to mind. While they don't flat out deny Sneak Attack, they do make it more difficult for Rogues, Ninjas, etc. to get their Sneak Attack dice.

[CharonsHelper]

I did a quick search on what's immune to Sneak Attack:

Ooze Type
Elemental Subtype
Incorporeal Subtype
Plant Type

Basically anything without a discernible anatomy / weak points.

There may also be specific abilities that protect the creature from Sneak Attacks. Uncanny Dodgy and Improved Uncanny Dodge come to mind. While they don't flat out deny Sneak Attack, they do make it more difficult for Rogues, Ninjas, etc. to get their Sneak Attack dice.

Plus anything with fortification is at least resistant to Sneak Attack.



Elementals and incorporeal undead come to mind. Also concelament prevents sneak attacks unless you are an Unchained Rogue.

You can also burn a feat on Shadow Strike.


Of note to the OP: If you do this combo (I'm a bit dubious that it's worth it) I'd make sure to taking both the Qingong & Drunken Master monk archetypes. That way with a 4 level dip into monk you can get an extra point of drunken ki to start off every fight. (Probably not worth getting Fast Drinker for this build like I have for my straight Drunken Master.) Qinggong lets you trade out Slow Fall for something good.

Also the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat would be handy to cancel out one of the lost 1d6 SA.

[DedWards]

Also the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat would be handy to cancel out one of the lost 1d6 SA.

I was unaware of this Feat. Probably because it's from a source my group doesn't use.

Getting one more sneak attack dice is cool fo Multiclassing like this, but is it worth a Feat Slot? Or rather, will this build have a Feat slot open for this?

[CharonsHelper]

Getting one more sneak attack dice is cool fo Multiclassing like this, but is it worth a Feat Slot? Or rather, will this build have a Feat slot open for this?

I will answer that with a resounding "maybe".

[Extra Anchovies]

Monk/Ninja isn't worth it. Instead, use Ninja VMC Monk. The Unarmed Strike class feature is pretty much two Ninja tricks rolled together, the two ki pools stack (for a total of level+Cha, which is pretty impressive), and the other benefits (evasion, +3 dodge bonus to AC, improved evasion) are all nice. It does require giving up armor, but for an unarmed Ninja it's a pretty solid option.

[Psyren]

What are UCT and UCM?

1) Unarmed Combat Training and Unarmed Combat Mastery (they are ninja tricks.)
2) This thread is 2 years old.