Template too much?

[unseenmage]

Using the Monstorus Lycanthrope template from Advanced Bestiary
to combine a Phaerlin Giant (MC:MoF50) Effigy (CAr) with an Ibrandlin dragon (MC:MoF62) Effigy
and pricing the resultant Phaerlin Giant Were-Ibrandlin using the PF rules for pricing Constructs based on their CR. Whew!

Gives us a Huge/Gargantuan, 18 HD, CR 8 Construct for the low low price of 50,000gp which requires you to be CL10 to make it.
This is the most HD for the lowest CR that I can make off the lists of creatures I have. I'm worried that it's too cheap.

If we want to use other templates on either side of our Construct lycanthrope the prices look like this:

- Effigy Were-Elder Eidolon CR price;
MP: 79,200gp

- Elder Eidolon Were-Effigy CR price;
MP: 79,200gp

- Elder Eidolon Were-Elder Eidolon CR price;
MP: 107,800gp

- Sacred Guardian Effigy Were-Effigy CR price;
MP: 79,200gp

- Sacred Guardian Effigy Were-Elder Eidolon CR price;
MP: 107,800gp

- Sacred Guardian Elder Eidolon Were-Effigy CR price;
MP: 107,800gp

- Sacred Guardian Elder Eidolon Were-Elder Eidolon CR price;
MP: 140,800gp


(Elder Eidolon is much like Effigy but from Lords of Madness.
Sacred Guardian is from Dragonlance: Bestiary of Krynn.)

Are these prices too low? Too high? Just right?
The character these are for is a 15th level gestalt Cleric/Techsmith//Artificer in Faerun who can only make Effigies etc of creatures he's been able to study and has paid to learn the blueprints of (works just like a Wizard researching a Custom Spell, CL replaces SL).

[unseenmage]

Surprisingly enough it's the Roper that's too strong to be combined with other strong templates/creatures.

I love it's HD boost and that awesome 50 foot natural attack. That 10 foot move speed sucks though.

Mind Flayer is my other pain. Nice HD but that CR keeps it pretty expensive.

Dragonkin (MC:MoF, Dr) is awesome though. large size and 7 HD for only 3 CR?! Very sweet. (remember that for my purposes it's CR that sets the price)
I don't really have much to combine it with though. (for my purposes I'm only combining humanoids on the front end with nonhumanoids on the "wolf"/back end)

[Scow2]

...how does "That Damn Crab" work as a base?

[unseenmage]

...how does "That Damn Crab" work as a base?

I have read of said crab before but do not know where it is. Link?



Additionally, I realized that I got lost in the mathing and have been jumping through a few too many hoops. Ugh.
I've been making the two base creatures into Constructs first when I could have been building the living Were-Creature THEN applying the Construct type changing template. Duh.

Changes prices to CR+CR, then resulting CR * itself * 500 * 1.1.
(before it was minimum CR+1 plus CR+1, then resulting CR * itself *500 * 1.1)

Without said hoops and applying Effigy afterMonstrous Lycanthrope removes the lycanthrope abilities. D'oh!

[Dead_Jester]

I have read of said crab before but do not know where it is. Link?

Everybody's favourite low level party slayer, the monstrous crab, aka That Damn Crab aka The Destroyer of Worlds (ok, that last may have been slightly exaggerated; that title probably goes to the similarly CR'ed Shadow plague) is available here The Lost Coast: Monsters of the Tides (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a).

[Thrair]

Yah, that god damned thing is best described by this quote:


OK, what do we notice?
First of all, it's CR three. And it's a bruiser. But it's also a fast bruiser - land speed of 40 and has a swim speed. It's got real bruiser status - large size and a 13.5 point attack. Two 13.5 point attacks.
Secondly, unlike other CR 3 bruisers, its relatively weak Will save means precisely ****, because it's a Vermin, and immune to anything a 3rd level party can dish out with a Will save.
Finally, we note that it has improved grab and a grapple bonus of 19. Also, it has 66 hit points and an AC of 19.
So how does combat with it work out? Like this, every damn time:
Round One: Giant Crab charges 80 feet and reaches out and touches someone (10' reach) for a +12 attack bonus. Then it does 13.5 damage. Then it Grapples, which it wins, and inflicts another 13.5 damage of constriction.
Round 2: Having just inflicted 27 points of damage on a 3rd level character in one round, it hurls the bloody carcass over its head and repeats the process with some other hapless 3rd level PC who happens to be within its 90 foot charge range.
Round 3: Having dispatched 2 PCs, it takes out the third PC.
Round Four: Assuming that the final character has not gotten a rush of brains to the head and hid, the Crab finishes off the last player character and dances around.
Motherfvckers! What the hell CR mismanagement is that ****!? This isn't one of those "It's a huge ass scorpion, dumbass, don't melee it!" problems - this is CR 3. You don't have any choice.

[unseenmage]

Everybody's favourite low level party slayer, the monstrous crab, aka That Damn Crab aka The Destroyer of Worlds (ok, that last may have been slightly exaggerated; that title probably goes to the similarly CR'ed Shadow plague) is available here The Lost Coast: Monsters of the Tides (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a).

With 7 HD and CR3 it's nearly identical to the Dragonkin in those regards. With much better Str.

I would put the two together for 14 HD, CR8 for (6+1)*(6+1)*500*1.1 MP: 26,950gp Dragonkin Were-Monstrous Crab.
Changes from a dragon-like medium humanoid into a large freaking crab. Oh, and it's lycanthropy is infectious to any humanoid creature.
And my version is an Effigy too. If you want non-robot then just don't add the +1 to the CRs in the above calculation.

Seems to work quite well.

Edit: As a bonus, with a creature that monstrous maybe the players won't even go questing for Belladonna after they're bit. :smalltongue:

[Drachasor]

Well, if you care about the spirit of the rules I'd compare the resulting creature's stats to other CR 8 creatures and see if it look right.

[unseenmage]

Well, if you care about the spirit of the rules I'd compare the resulting creature's stats to other CR 8 creatures and see if it look right.

Not being very good at said comparisons I guess that's kind of what I'm asking for?

In which case sorry for not being more specific I guess. My bad.

[Drachasor]

Is this a 3.5 Construct or PF construct? Their hit dice are slightly different (for instance, 3.5 has 3/4 BAB whereas PF has full BAB).

Could you give a stat-block, because I don't have all those templates available?

[unseenmage]

Is this a 3.5 Construct or PF construct? Their hit dice are slightly different (for instance, 3.5 has 3/4 BAB whereas PF has full BAB).

Could you give a stat-block, because I don't have all those templates available?

3.5 Construct. And sure, Statblock incoming. Might take a few mins though.

[unseenmage]

Phaerlin Giant Were-Ibrandlin Effigy
Phaerlin Giant Were-Ibrandlin Effigy, Normal Form
Huge Construct
HD 18d10+40 (139)
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Init: -2
AC 20 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +14 Natural); touch 6; flat-footed 22)
BAB +13; Grp +28
Attack Claw +18 melee (2d4+7)
Full-Attack 2 Claws +13 melee (2d4+7), Bite +9 melee 1d8+3
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks --
Special Qualities DR 10/silver, Alternate Form (Su), Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex)
Saves Fort +6 Ref +4 Will +5
Abilities Str 25 (+7), Dex 7 (-2), Con -- (--), Int -- (--), Wis 8 (-1), Cha 9 (-1)
Skills --
Feats Blind-Fight, Cleave, Power Attack
Environment Any
Organization None
Challenge Rating 8
Treasure None
Alignment Always Neutral
Advancement None
Level Adjustment --

Phaerlin Giant Were-Ibrandlin Effigy, Hybrid Form
Gargantuan Construct
HD 18d10+40 (139)
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares), Climb 10 ft. (2 squares)
Init: -2
AC 21 (-2 size, -4 Dex, +17 Natural); touch 4; flat-footed 23)
BAB +13; Grp +44
Attack Claw +18 melee (2d4+19)
Full-Attack 2 Claws +13 melee (2d4+19), Bite +9 melee 1d8+15
Space 20 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
Special Attacks Curse of Lycanthropy (Su), Pin (Ex)
Special Qualities DR 10/silver, Alternate Form (Su), Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex)
Saves Fort +6 Ref +4 Will +5
Abilities Str 49 (+19), Dex 7 (-2), Con -- (--), Int -- (--), Wis 8 (-1), Cha 9 (-1)
Skills --
Feats Blind-Fight, Cleave, Power Attack
Environment Any
Organization None
Challenge Rating 8
Treasure None
Alignment Always Neutral
Advancement None
Level Adjustment --

Phaerlin Giant Were-Ibrandlin Effigy, Monster Form
Gargantuan Construct
HD 18d10+40 (139)
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares), Climb 20 ft. (4 squares)
Init: -2
AC 21 (-2 size, -4 Dex, +17 Natural); touch 4; flat-footed 23)
BAB +13; Grp +44
Attack Claw +18 melee (2d4+19)
Full-Attack 2 Claws +13 melee (2d4+19), Bite +9 melee 1d8+15
Space 20 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
Special Attacks Curse of Lycanthropy (Su), Pin (Ex)
Special Qualities DR 10/silver, Alternate Form (Su), Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex)
Saves Fort +6 Ref +4 Will +5
Abilities Str 49 (+19), Dex 7 (-2), Con -- (--), Int -- (--), Wis 8 (-1), Cha 9 (-1)
Skills --
Feats Blind-Fight, Cleave, Power Attack
Environment Any
Organization None
Challenge Rating 9
Treasure None
Alignment Always Neutral
Advancement None
Level Adjustment --

Curse of Lycanthropy (Su): Any humanoid, monstrous
humanoid, giant, or creature with a generally humanoid
form (two arms, two legs, and a head) that is hit by the
bite attack of a natural monstrous lycanthrope in animal
or hybrid form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save
or contract lycanthropy. If the victim is not within one
size category of the monstrous lycanthrope’s monster form
(for example, a hill giant bitten by a weresprite), the victim
cannot contract lycanthropy from that creature. Affl icted
monstrous lycanthropes cannot pass on the curse of
lycanthropy.

Construction: MP: 44,550gp which includes 4,050gp for construction of the body.

The purpose of building this with the PF CR calculation is to retain the Lycanthropy, which wouldn't happen with simple application of the Effigy Template. This potentially changes the pricing to MP: 66,500gp.

My apologies for this making this creature more homebrew. I truly thought when I started that this would be a sinmple application of template(s)

Edit: The pricing is lower this time as I only applied the Effigy Template once to the Lycanthrope creature.
Before I was applying it to both sides so my creation would start as Constructs on both sides, but that ups the CR and so the price, but also ups the Str too...
Even with the redundant template stacking it might make the creature more appropriate just because it hikes the CR/price... I'm just not sure.

Edit again: I've been thinking, and the reason for using the PF 'by CR creation' rules was so an Artificer could build a Monstorus Lycanthrope.

If either side is a living creature before Monstrous Lycanthrope is applied then the Effigy Template has to be applied afterward (barring odd Construct type overriding other type lycanthrope shenanigans). Which would remove the (SU) lycanthrope abilities we're after (as it should in the above creature.)

So, both the base creature and the added creature have to be Constructs befoehand in order for an Artificer to make use of the 'build by CR' rules and construct a Monstrous Lycanthrope from scratch.

[unseenmage]

Moved discussion of this idea over to the Homebrew forum here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328910). Seemed like a better fit there.