A Lich Question

[Loreweaver15]

I'm currently working on a story based loosely around D&D conventions; specifically, I want it to work logically within parameters anybody familiar with 3.5 would find sensible, but without the level of explicit reference that webcomics like OOTS and Goblins make. My dilemma is thus; the "final boss" of the story is an ancient alien god attempting to devour the souls of those living on this set of planes that has been confined to the (relatively) mortal body of a powerful dragon. Meanwhile, one of the characters I am toying around with setting the plot in motion is a lich; I want this character to be powerful enough to be a credible danger to the main party of heroes whenever they run into her (they will be wary of her even when they're ostensibly on the same side of the conflict), but not powerful enough that joining a battle with an ancient dragon makes it a trivial affair.

All of my experience with reading about D&D liches, both in tales like OOTS and the monster manuals I've gotten ahold of over the years, has left me with the impression that they are generally a high-grade power within any setting; my question is this--is this a feasible ally to have in a legitimately rough final battle, or are liches generally a more powerful force than should be applied such?

Please forgive the vagueness of my question. I've spent years enjoying works based on 3.5, but have never run the system as a GM or played more than a few sessions myself, and while I love the system as an idea my experience with it is fairly shallow. Any advice will be much appreciated.

[hamishspence]

A lich needs to be at least an 11th level caster - but no more casting ability than that is required.

If the spell list for the class is fairly weak - we can have a lich who is not really all that powerful, for their CR.

[Loreweaver15]

Wait, so all that's required is a caster class--not something specific like a Sorcerer or a Wizard? Theoretically it could be something ridiculous like a Bard, or something subversive like a Druid?

That opens up a lot of interesting story possibilities across the board.

[Silva Stormrage]

Wait, so all that's required is a caster class--not something specific like a Sorcerer or a Wizard? Theoretically it could be something ridiculous like a Bard, or something subversive like a Druid?

That opens up a lot of interesting story possibilities across the board.

Yep!

You can have a paladin lich if you wanted too.

Wouldn't even be THAT bad as it does give nice DR and a touch attack but still :smalltongue:

Also the look on the PC's face if some villagers note that a lich has started living nearby,
PC's: "DIE LICH!"
Lich: "Wait I am a paladin!"
PC's: "Oh thats the most unbelievable lie!"

:smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

The template does change characters to Evil - but there's an Archlich version of the template that doesn't.

Or one could be one of the Evil Paladin variants.

However, since paladin's caster level is half their class level - they won't be able to craft the phylactery until they reach epic levels.

And there are indeed Druid Liches out there- one of the villains in Champions of Ruin is one.

[Silva Stormrage]

The template does change characters to Evil - but there's an Archlich version of the template that doesn't.

Or one could be one of the Evil Paladin variants.

However, since paladin's caster level is half their class level - they won't be able to craft the phylactery until they reach epic levels.

And there are indeed Druid Liches out there- one of the villains in Champions of Ruin is one.

You can boost CL through feats and items though if need be. You don't lose the phylactery if your CL drops below 11 after the transformation :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

True.

In Libris Mortis, the weakest of the sample liches was an 11th level Adept.

[KillianHawkeye]

Wait, so all that's required is a caster class--not something specific like a Sorcerer or a Wizard? Theoretically it could be something ridiculous like a Bard, or something subversive like a Druid?

Yep. Healer Lich for the lulz. :smallwink::smallamused:

[Zanos]

You can boost CL through feats an items though if need be. You don't lose the phylactery if your CL drops below 11 after the transformation :smalltongue:
Practiced Spellcaster should work just fine for paladins.

[SaintRidley]

The template does change characters to Evil - but there's an Archlich version of the template that doesn't.

Or one could be one of the Evil Paladin variants.

However, since paladin's caster level is half their class level - they won't be able to craft the phylactery until they reach epic levels.

And there are indeed Druid Liches out there- one of the villains in Champions of Ruin is one.

Practiced Spellcaster Paladin at 14th level can do it. Which makes for some hilarity.

Ranger might be even more amusing.

[Starbuck_II]

You can boost CL through feats and items though if need be. You don't lose the phylactery if your CL drops below 11 after the transformation :smalltongue:

The Strands of Prater Beads? +4 caster.

So a 7th level caster able to activate them can be Lich.

[Silva Stormrage]

The Strands of Prater Beads? +4 caster.

So a 7th level caster able to activate them can be Lich.

It really depends on how long it takes to craft the phylactery. It might take more than 10 minutes.

Enough orange ion stones and you could be a level 1 lich though (Paladin would need level 4 but still). It would be hard to get that many stones at level 1 though unless your DM is crazy :smalltongue:

Now I have a villain idea who is using a set of orange ion stones + distilled pain for the XP cost and transforming a bunch of low level people into lichees XD

/scribble /scribble :smalltongue:

[KillianHawkeye]

It really depends on how long it takes to craft the phylactery. It might take more than 10 minutes.

It almost certainly does.

Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

The rules for crafting of Wondrous Items give a duration for crafting any item equal to one day for each 1,000 gp in its market price, giving us a minimum of 120 days. However, since the actual cost to make the item is usually half its market price, the time to create a phylactery could actually be 240 days as 120,000 gp is given as the cost of creation and not the item's actual market value.

Or course, a phylactery of this type is only worth anything at all to the lich who crafts it, so it wouldn't really have value on the open market, meaning that this entire line of reasoning could be completely invalid.

[Silva Stormrage]

It almost certainly does.


The rules for crafting of Wondrous Items give a duration for crafting any item equal to one day for each 1,000 gp in its market price, giving us a minimum of 120 days. However, since the actual cost to make the item is usually half its market price, the time to create a phylactery could actually be 240 days as 120,000 gp is given as the cost of creation and not the item's actual market value.

Or course, a phylactery of this type is only worth anything at all to the lich who crafts it, so it wouldn't really have value on the open market, meaning that this entire line of reasoning could be completely invalid.

Yes but TECHNICALLY (I stress the technically I agree with you in principle) the phylactery is not a wondrous magic item. It just requires craft wondrous item to make.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes but TECHNICALLY (I stress the technically I agree with you in principle) the phylactery is not a wondrous magic item. It just requires craft wondrous item to make.

How is it NOT a wondrous item? Are you arguing that it is a different type of magic item (if so, then what type), or not a magic item at all (it obviously is because it has a caster level)?



As a side note: 120,000 gp is more than the entire expected wealth of any character less than 14th level, and is still nearly half the expected wealth of a 16th level character.

[Silva Stormrage]

How is it NOT a wondrous item? Are you arguing that it is a different type of magic item (if so, then what type), or not a magic item at all (it obviously is because it has a caster level)?



As a side note: 120,000 gp is more than the entire expected wealth of any character less than 14th level, and is still nearly half the expected wealth of a 16th level character.

I am saying that RAW it doesn't specify a particular item type so you can't 100% say it requires 240 days to create.

Personally ya its obvious that it is supposed to be a wondrous item.

And ya getting into lichdom early is going to be expensive. For villains though their wealth is as the DM wants so they can do it somewhat easier :smalltongue:

[Loreweaver15]

This is all getting me very interesting ideas, guys, thank you. As for how CR works--a character or creature's CR is, basically, a sign that says "This party should be this level or higher to ride", yes? Or is it something else entirely? (And I know good storytelling fudges that a LOT but knowing what CR means for relative threat level is very useful for making adjustments from baseline.)

[Zanos]

This is all getting me very interesting ideas, guys, thank you. As for how CR works--a character or creature's CR is, basically, a sign that says "This party should be this level or higher to ride", yes? Or is it something else entirely? (And I know good storytelling fudges that a LOT but knowing what CR means for relative threat level is very useful for making adjustments from baseline.)
An encounter of CR = Average Party ECL should consume 25% of the parties daily resources and is not supposed to be particularly difficult. People should only die in such an encounter as a result of stupidity or poor planning. An encounter the party has a 50/50 chance of winning should be about ECL + 4.

Note that the CR system assumes a party of 4 characters, and may need to be adjusted to account for different party sizes.

Also note that the CR system is notorious for being inaccurate.

[Loreweaver15]

An encounter of CR = Average Party ECL should consume 25% of the parties daily resources and is not supposed to be particularly difficult. People should only die in such an encounter as a result of stupidity or poor planning. An encounter the party has a 50/50 chance of winning should be about ECL + 4.

Note that the CR system assumes a party of 4 characters, and may need to be adjusted to account for different party sizes.

Also note that the CR system is notorious for being inaccurate.

Understood. Like I said, it's mostly just useful to know the intended threat level. The party in its current makeup looks to be a Paladin, a Druid, a Sorcerer, a Barbarian, an ex-fiendish Wizard (long-story), plus help from an Ascended paladin and the aforementioned lich.

Yeah, I'm going to be taking the toughest kind of dragon I can find and scaling it up.

[Fortinbro]

I highly recommend looking into Complete Guide to Liches if you want to see some more options for crafting unique Liches.

[Loreweaver15]

I'll definitely look for that, thank you!

So, to cap: A party of adventurers, a lich, a celestial, and a devil fighting a running battle against an ancient alien god as they all fall inwards towards a collapsing artificial star.

Do I win the Final Boss contest yet? :P

On a more serious note, I'm reading conflicting accounts of the spells that dragons are able to cast. Does it vary as widely as all that--I'm seeing spontaneous casting and prepared casting with lists as narrow as a sorcerer's and as wide as a wizard's plus a druid's.

[KillianHawkeye]

taking the toughest kind of dragon I can find and scaling it up.

Unintentional pun? :smallbiggrin:

[Loreweaver15]

Unintentional pun? :smallbiggrin:

That's--
I--
God damn it

[KillianHawkeye]

You're welcome! :smallamused:

[Loreweaver15]

Another question.

One of the plot points I'm playing with is Outsiders and free will, specifically divine/demonic/etc god-spawned Outsiders and being literally made of their alignment. The ex-fiendish wizard I mentioned fits into this. The idea I'm messing with is that these beings can be corrupted away from their alignment, and since they are literally formed out of it, changing that about them literally changes what they are, shifting them towards a mortal form and altering their abilities. Fully making the transition strips them of most of their original powers and converts them to a mortal of equivalent level and a species dependent on whom or what they changed for; eg an ex-lawful-good celestial who changed alignment for Thog for some reason would end up being a half-orc, and an ex-chaotic-evil devil who changed for Elan or Haley would be a human.

My question is this; one of the ideas I'm messing around with is that, of the few attributes they retain from their original forms, they still ping forever as their original alignment no matter what. I'm wondering if that's something that would interfere with the way alignment physics works in D&D mechanics; would they just ping as Evil like Roy does while wearing Xykon's crown and otherwise function normally, or would the proverbial succubus paladin be rendered nonfunctional and/or cause any paladins she associated to Fall, despite being Lawful Good while pinging as Evil?

[Thurbane]

True.

In Libris Mortis, the weakest of the sample liches was an 11th level Adept.
So, a Kobold Lich Adept 11 would be CR 10. Interesting.

[Loreweaver15]

Still hoping for a response to my latest question, or at least discussion of :P

[holywhippet]

My question is this; one of the ideas I'm messing around with is that, of the few attributes they retain from their original forms, they still ping forever as their original alignment no matter what. I'm wondering if that's something that would interfere with the way alignment physics works in D&D mechanics; would they just ping as Evil like Roy does while wearing Xykon's crown and otherwise function normally, or would the proverbial succubus paladin be rendered nonfunctional and/or cause any paladins she associated to Fall, despite being Lawful Good while pinging as Evil?

Seems too much of a stretch to me. Alignments are based on your current way of dealing with the world. They aren't tied to your physical body.

[GoblinArchmage]

This is for a work of fiction? Why don't you just focus on making an effective story, instead of worrying about whether you are following D&D rules?

[Loreweaver15]

This is for a work of fiction? Why don't you just focus on making an effective story, instead of worrying about whether you are following D&D rules?

Because it's an interesting set of laws-of-physics that I'm interested in playing with, in much the same way that Tarol Hunt or Rich Burlew decided to do?

:P

@holywhippet--I'd agree for somebody who started out as a mortal, but the implication when reading about these outsiders in the material I have access to is that they are, fluffwise, literally formed from the substance of their god's home plane. Is that so?

[Zanos]

Seems too much of a stretch to me. Alignments are based on your current way of dealing with the world. They aren't tied to your physical body.
They are for outsiders. Aligned outsiders can change their alignment, but it is extremely rare. They still maintain their alignment subtypes, though, because a Lawful Good succubus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) is still composed of primal evil.

Having an aura of another alignment shouldn't affect any class features/mechanics adversely that I'm aware of.

[Fouredged Sword]

RAW outsiders can change alignment without changing type. There is a supplement somewhere that talked about a LG paladin Succubus, with an aura of Good, Law, Chaos and Evil all at the same time.

I like your solution though, as it makes a lot of story more interesting.

[Socksy]

I suppose you could refluff (is that the right term?) the Grim Psion PrC into something magic-based rather than psionic-based, for a slightly different flavour of lich. It might be easier to work with actual class levels rather than a template if they encounter this dude at lower levels than 11 and you want to keep things balanced.

[Loreweaver15]

I did use the tale of the succubus paladin as a starting point for considering the implications of an aligned outsider changing alignments (and I confess that there's going to be a centuries-old one hiding amongst the order of paladins that our wizard will eventually encounter :P) but hadn't read anything there about alignment pinging. Many thanks for confirming that it works :D

I'll go look up the Grim Psion, thanks!