About The IFCC's alternative plan

[Kruploy]

Would it have actually worked?

Assuming that Durkon was still with the fleet at the moment, sending has a 10 minute casting time and resurrection also has a 10 minute casting time.

Wouldn't the dragon be done with her business before Aarindarius comes to the rescue?

I don't think it would take more than 20 minutes to kill some kids and bind their souls which would mean the plan was a sham and undercut the point of V choosing to make the deal rather than having to.

[SaintRidley]

It was never a viable plan. It was never supposed to be one. It was only supposed to sound superficially plausible so V would have to make a choice.

[martianmister]

It wouldn't. Qarr is lawful, but he's not lawful enough to carry a suicide mission for someone he barely know.

[Heksefatter]

And even if Qarr would do it, the plan has a gabillion loose ends. To mention a few:

- What if Qarr was killed, without the Order knowing that what he carried was V's head? They could just see a fiend and shoot it.

- What, even if they saw V's head, the head was lost in the ocean?

- What, even if they got the head, Durkon hadn't gotten ressurection prepapared?

- What, even if Durkon had resurrection prepared, V's master wasn't in a state to receive the sending?

- What, even if V's master was in a state to receive the sending, he wasn't in a state to go fight the black dragon? For instance, he could have prepared spells for the day that weren't suited to fight a black dragon or he could not have prepared enough spells.

- What, even if V's master was in a state to go fight the black dragon, he couldn't get there in time, despite what the archfiends said?

- What, even if V's master got there in time, he couldn't defeat the black dragon?


The plan was nonsense to begin with, and the archfiends admitted it to Qarr too.

[Snails]

The goal of the proposed plan is to goad V in to making a "Shut up! Give me power!" decision. So it has to just plausible enough to be annoying to disprove. Once that low bar is achieved, being a stupid plan that is doomed to fail is a positive.

Keep in mind that V saying "I must save my family" is a bad turn of events from the IFCC's eyes. He can do that quite quickly and might relinquish the splice immediately thereafter. The IFCC needs to goad V beyond utter desperation and to complete personal humiliation before giving over the power.

Also keep in mind that it is quite possible the IFCC knew about the blood relationship between the ABD and Clan Draketooth,. If so, Familicide was a foreseen possible "accident".

[Heksefatter]

The goal of the proposed plan is to goad V in to making a "Shut up! Give me power!" decision. So it has to just plausible enough to be annoying to disprove. Once that low bar is achieved, being a stupid plan that is doomed to fail is a positive.

Keep in mind that V saying "I must save my family" is a bad turn of events from the IFCC's eyes. He can do that quite quickly and might relinquish the splice immediately thereafter. The IFCC needs to goad V beyond utter desperation and to complete personal humiliation before giving over the power.

Also keep in mind that it is quite possible the IFCC knew about the blood relationship between the ABD and Clan Draketooth,. If so, Familicide was a foreseen possible "accident".

Just the last part...the archfiends seemed genuinely shocked by V's use of familicide, so I don't really see them as having predicted it, even as a long shot. If they did, they'd be more like toasting each other in glee that an optimum, but unlikely, scenario came to pass.

[Gift Jeraff]

Though even if they didn't know about the Draketooth connection, they still wanted V on a power trip so s/he'd attack Xykon.

[Snails]

Just the last part...the archfiends seemed genuinely shocked by V's use of familicide, so I don't really see them as having predicted it, even as a long shot. If they did, they'd be more like toasting each other in glee that an optimum, but unlikely, scenario came to pass.

A reasonable point, but it depends why they were shocked. It is not every millennium that a Neutral soul racks up more kilonazis in six seconds than Belkar has accomplished in a lifetime, on hir own initiative.

I would note that having so much power as to attack Xykon is not directly a benefit. Xykon being obliterated is a bad thing, because they need Team Evil around to keep the Good Guys thoroughly distracted. They needed to give V enough power to keep V very busy and running the clock, and that is all. Couldn't quite a bit less power have been sufficient here?

[FujinAkari]

I would note that having so much power as to attack Xykon is not directly a benefit. Xykon being obliterated is a bad thing, because they need Team Evil around to keep the Good Guys thoroughly distracted. They needed to give V enough power to keep V very busy and running the clock, and that is all. Couldn't quite a bit less power have been sufficient here?

Actually, the IFCC said that they fully anticipated and wanted V to attack Xykon (They said it was 84% (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) likely). No offense, but you may want to re-read those strips, as you've directly contradicted what was stated twice now :)

[Acrux]

Actually, the IFCC said that they fully anticipated and wanted V to attack Xykon (They said it was 84% (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) likely). No offense, but you may want to re-read those strips, as you've directly contradicted what was stated twice now :)

He's the Snail. I don't think this misdirection is accidental.

[DaggerPen]

And even if Qarr would do it, the plan has a gabillion loose ends. To mention a few:

- What if Qarr was killed, without the Order knowing that what he carried was V's head? They could just see a fiend and shoot it.

- What, even if they saw V's head, the head was lost in the ocean?

- What, even if they got the head, Durkon hadn't gotten ressurection prepapared?

- What, even if Durkon had resurrection prepared, V's master wasn't in a state to receive the sending?

- What, even if V's master was in a state to receive the sending, he wasn't in a state to go fight the black dragon? For instance, he could have prepared spells for the day that weren't suited to fight a black dragon or he could not have prepared enough spells.

- What, even if V's master was in a state to go fight the black dragon, he couldn't get there in time, despite what the archfiends said?

- What, even if V's master got there in time, he couldn't defeat the black dragon?


The plan was nonsense to begin with, and the archfiends admitted it to Qarr too.

Not to mention that Durkon and Elan were not in fact aboard the Azurite fleet at that point in time, so even if all had gone well and V's head ended up delivered nicely to the Azurites, they would have had no ready way to resurrect V.

[marq]

It was never a viable plan. It was never supposed to be one. It was only supposed to sound superficially plausible so V would have to make a choice.

And that explanation they gave in comic still doesn't make any sense.

[thereaper]

They wanted V to take the splice for reasons of ultimate arcane power, not for reasons of family.

If V had done it only for his family, he might have given it up immediately after the threat had passed.

Having taken it for the explicit purpose of power, however, made V not want to give it up once the threat to his family passed. This led directly to him attacking Xykon and kicking him out of his complacency (as the IFCC intended), while increasing the amount of time the fiends have V's soul (also intended).

[Keltest]

And that explanation they gave in comic still doesn't make any sense.

Keep in mind that V had gone several... months I think... without a trance. His brain was running on empty. It had a possibility of success, and was the only other plan with such a possibility, however slim. It did not need to stand up to close examination because it was DESIGNED to make the souls splice look more appealing.

[jidasfire]

Just the last part...the archfiends seemed genuinely shocked by V's use of familicide, so I don't really see them as having predicted it, even as a long shot. If they did, they'd be more like toasting each other in glee that an optimum, but unlikely, scenario came to pass.

I disagree on this. I suspect they considered it a likely outcome. For one thing, they sent Haerta, so they must have known she had the spell. For another, once Qarr sees the Draketooth family portrait, he immediately figures out the connection. This suggests that the Fiends had it in mind from the beginning, hoping that V would use the spell to weaken Girard's Gate, much as they hoped s/he would go after Xykon. They do seem to be intricate enough planners to deduce it or at least strongly suspect it would happen beforehand, especially with such obscene power dangling in front of their mark.

[ChristianSt]

I disagree on this. I suspect they considered it a likely outcome. For one thing, they sent Haerta, so they must have known she had the spell. For another, once Qarr sees the Draketooth family portrait, he immediately figures out the connection. This suggests that the Fiends had it in mind from the beginning, hoping that V would use the spell to weaken Girard's Gate, much as they hoped s/he would go after Xykon. They do seem to be intricate enough planners to deduce it or at least strongly suspect it would happen beforehand, especially with such obscene power dangling in front of their mark.

Disclaimer: I think that "likely" signalizes a probability >50%.

I don't think that Qarr's reaction on that makes it likelier that the IFCC suspected V will use Familicide or not: Qarr saw that V used Familicide and just drawn that conclusion himself. I can't imagine that the IFCC shares all information with their subordinates. Even Sabine admits she only knows half of what is going on in 903 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html), and I can't imagine that they think Qarr can handle (potential secret) information better.
I think it even proves that the IFCC didn't talked about it with Qarr. If Qarr would have known that the Draketooth's died because of Familiced, he wouldn't laughed that hard at the family tree. Or at least he would have said something more on the lines "Yeah, they where right on that part."

And only because they most likely did know that Haerta has Familicide, that doesn't tell us how likely they thought a usage (against a specific target!) of that one spell was.

Speculated: Sure.
Thought it was likely: I don't think so.

[jidasfire]

Disclaimer: I think that "likely" signalizes a probability >50%.

I don't think that Qarr's reaction on that makes it likelier that the IFCC suspected V will use Familicide or not: Qarr saw that V used Familicide and just drawn that conclusion himself. I can't imagine that the IFCC shares all information with their subordinates. Even Sabine admits she only knows half of what is going on in 903 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html), and I can't imagine that they think Qarr can handle (potential secret) information better.
I think it even proves that the IFCC didn't talked about it with Qarr. If Qarr would have known that the Draketooth's died because of Familiced, he wouldn't laughed that hard at the family tree. Or at least he would have said something more on the lines "Yeah, they where right on that part."

And only because they most likely did know that Haerta has Familicide, that doesn't tell us how likely they thought a usage (against a specific target!) of that one spell was.

Speculated: Sure.
Thought it was likely: I don't think so.

No, I agree his reaction strongly suggests they didn't tell him. My point was more that he figured out what they were up to. I will fully admit it could have been a lucky break for them, but considering they'd been vetting V for that deal since s/he and Sabine had their first talk in the Azure City bar, they probably at least suspected. If I had to guess, I'd say they dangled the Familicide in front of V, and figured that in the best case, it would take out the Draketooth clan as well as drive V over to evil. And indeed, from their perspective, the deal was a smashing success. I guess I'm just saying I doubt they were all that surprised, though no doubt they were happy about it.

[Taelas]

I disagree on this. I suspect they considered it a likely outcome. For one thing, they sent Haerta, so they must have known she had the spell. For another, once Qarr sees the Draketooth family portrait, he immediately figures out the connection. This suggests that the Fiends had it in mind from the beginning, hoping that V would use the spell to weaken Girard's Gate, much as they hoped s/he would go after Xykon. They do seem to be intricate enough planners to deduce it or at least strongly suspect it would happen beforehand, especially with such obscene power dangling in front of their mark.

Look, there's no way they considered it a likely outcome. They were clearly speechless for a moment there. They probably knew about the spell, but going from "knowing a spell exists" to "knowing how it's going to be used"... there's a LOT of difference. At most, they considered whether V would use it or not. Judging by their reaction, they probably decided against it being likely.

Qarr observed the casting of familicide, so it's entirely reasonable that he would figure it out just from seeing the family tree, quite as easily as V did. The fact that he did tells us absolutely nothing about what the IFCC knew. It tells us that Qarr is capable of recognizing the effects of a spell he witnessed and was told the effects of by the caster.

They wanted Xykon knocked out of his comfort zone so they could get more "destructive unnecessary conflict", and they wanted to be able to nab V at opportune moments, such as when he tried to prevent Roy from destroying the Gate. That V pulled 'that stunt with the dragons' is just a bonus, from their perspective.

[Kruploy]

If the orange reapers were so interested in rustling Xykon's jimmies, why not just demand V's soul for their price instead of taking dominion over it for a limited amount of time?

V was desperate and probably would have agreed to sell his soul to save his family and without a time meter, he would have gone after Xykon to make the most of his powers since he was damned anyway. Plus the IFCC could have put him out of comission whenever they want.

To be honest, this deal looks extremely unfair for the IFCC at this point. They handed out the power to teleport armies, kill someone's entire bloodline and to do so much more for like an hour of someone's time, even Mephisto wasn't so generous!

Hopefully we will see the orange dooms come out on top of this deal at the end otherwise they are just going to look like morons.

[Kish]

If the orange reapers were so interested in rustling Xykon's jimmies, why not just demand V's soul for their price instead of taking dominion over it for a limited amount of time?
Whatever the IFCC ultimately hopes to get out of this, I feel confident in saying they're aiming higher than the badly tarnished soul of one Racist Neutral elf.

[Tiiba]

I think if V was completely damned, he might drink himself to death and "never do anything important again", and they wouldn't have the exquisite pleasure of providing him company when he least needs it.

[ChristianSt]

To be honest, this deal looks extremely unfair for the IFCC at this point. They handed out the power to teleport armies, kill someone's entire bloodline and to do so much more for like an hour of someone's time, even Mephisto wasn't so generous!

I think they will get something really epic* out of it. But we simple don't know what their goal is. But I except** we will see that - and imo a crucial part is that they need V alive for that (how I'm not exactly sure - maybe in some future 'renting V's body time' they will actually control him/her).

But the problem is we can't really judge the IFCC, because we don't know anything about their agenda

*Or at least they think they get it because of 668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html): "If our plan for the Gates really works, such a slaughter will be trivial". The slaughter in question is to kill five Good dragons for each dragon V killed with Familicide. And if five times Familicide=trivial, I don't want to know what they could really pull off when their plan succeeds.

**Reason for that is 656 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html), IFCC: "If the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time.". So imo it is clear that they need V later down the line or they have just wasted resources.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

**Reason for that is 656 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html), IFCC: "If the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time.". So imo it is clear that they need V later down the line or they have just wasted resources.

My interpretation of that line was that if V died then it would be evidence that the multiple Soul Splices didn't work. Since the stated purpose of the IFCC is to offer services that would be impossible from just one kind of fiend, if the Soul Splice doesn't work then the joining together offers no advantage, compared to the old system, and whoever is in charge down below would shut down the IFCC.

[ChristianSt]

My interpretation of that line was that if V died then it would be evidence that the multiple Soul Splices didn't work. Since the stated purpose of the IFCC is to offer services that would be impossible from just one kind of fiend, if the Soul Splice doesn't work then the joining together offers no advantage, compared to the old system, and whoever is in charge down below would shut down the IFCC.

The Soul Splice clearly did do what it should do: Saving V's family.
V being to dumb to use it clever, doesn't make the product bad. If I sell someone a PC and that person fails to turn it on, that doesn't make it a crappy PC. And V was saved by by pure chance anyway.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I see your point now. I guess that previously I had been seeing the attack on Xykon as the main goal. Thanks for clarifying things for me.

[halfeye]

Or at least they think they get it because of 668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html): "If our plan for the Gates really works, such a slaughter will be trivial". The slaughter in question is to kill five Good dragons for each dragon V killed with Familicide. And if five times Familicide=trivial, I don't want to know what they could really pull off when their plan succeeds.
Some thoughts about that line. The slaughter being trivial I think means their plan is going to kill almost that many good dragons anyway, so there will be no need to do much to bring the number up to that. Yeah, what they are planning is big time bad, and I am sure we will see what it is before it is attempted.

[Rodin]

If the orange reapers were so interested in rustling Xykon's jimmies, why not just demand V's soul for their price instead of taking dominion over it for a limited amount of time?

V was desperate and probably would have agreed to sell his soul to save his family and without a time meter, he would have gone after Xykon to make the most of his powers since he was damned anyway. Plus the IFCC could have put him out of comission whenever they want.



The reason for the time meter was to put V under pressure. If V knew that he was damned for eternity no matter what, then she would have done the business with the dragon (not an objective of the fiends), gone and tidied up the loose ends with the fleet (not an objective of the fiends), then gathered the entirety of the Order together and rested and prepared before using Epic Teleport to perform a proper scry-and-die on Xykon (not an objective of the fiends). Given how tough V was after blowing a number of high-level spells against the dragon, it's hard to imagine Xykon winning with Redcloak getting ganked by the entire Order + O'Chul.

Since the fiends only wanted Xykon "roughed up", placing a timer on V was the best way to make her rush in alone. If the entire Order is there and they pull V from that fight, the Order dies, and the fiends don't want that either (at least, not at that time in that place).

Basically, the fiends used pyschological probabilities to gamble and won big-time.

[Taelas]

Also, selling your soul for all of eternity is a lot less palatable than leasing it for X amount of time. They wanted V to agree to the deal, so they made it as sweet as they possibly could.

"Probably" is not always enough.

[Sir_Leorik]

Would it have actually worked?

No it would not have, and Lee knew it wouldn't have worked. The point of the alternate plan was to wound Vaarsuvius' pride. The IFCC had clearly been scrying on V for quite some time (possibly since the very moment Sabine told them about the Gates) and they witnessed V's failure to save the Azurite soldiers, her failure to locate Haley, and her failure to stop the ABD. Each of these failures took a toll on V's ego, and she was therefore vulnerable to Lee's baiting.

V's ego has always been her downfall, causing her to be arrogant and haughty, and leading her to engaging in meaningless pranks with Belkar. And Lee, Nero and Cedrik took full advantage of V's pride to goad her into agreeing to their deal of her own free will. After all, if there really was no other way for V to save her children, then maybe V could later try to wriggle out of the bargain. But if there's some other zany way to stop the ABD, even if it's a longshot that has maybe a snowball's chance in Avernus of working, then V has no one to blame but herself if she takes the deal.

Then the IFCC Directors start pouring on the smooth talk, trying to convince V to take their deal anyway. After all, there's no one else on the island but them, and if you can't trust three Archfiends not to breach a confidentiality agreement, who can you trust? :smallwink:

[DaveMcW]

I think they will get something really epic* out of it. But we simple don't know what their goal is.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html

1. ???
2. Unify the forces of the lower planes.
3. Lay waste to all that is pure and holy.
4. Gather around great dispensers of angels' blood to discuss the previous evening's televised entertainment.

If the Gates actually work as a weapon to kill or blackmail gods, they have all the pieces they need to pull it off. (OK, we haven't seen their divine caster yet, those seem to be in short supply.)

[Koo Rehtorb]

To be honest, this deal looks extremely unfair for the IFCC at this point. They handed out the power to teleport armies, kill someone's entire bloodline and to do so much more for like an hour of someone's time, even Mephisto wasn't so generous!

It's okay to make an uneven trade if you get something you really want and need out of it.

[mikeejimbo]

Not to mention, a deal that looks like you got the upper hand is a classic part of a con. When fiends offer you a deal you can bet good money that they are going to run wild with it and come off with far more than it looks like they should.

The traditional devil's bargain has them getting your soul after you die. With this deal they can interrupt Vaarsuvius whenever they need to. That should not be underestimated. V is powerful enough that taking her out of commission could swing the tide of battle.

[David Argall]

Not to mention, a deal that looks like you got the upper hand is a classic part of a con. When fiends offer you a deal you can bet good money that they are going to run wild with it and come off with far more than it looks like they should.

The traditional devil's bargain has them getting your soul after you die. With this deal they can interrupt Vaarsuvius whenever they need to. That should not be underestimated. V is powerful enough that taking her out of commission could swing the tide of battle.
The problems include that the deal not only looks one-sided, it looks hugely one-sided. And the fiends, tho well-informed and smart, seem to be neither to the degree needed to make a profit on this deal.
The fiends get to take V out of action? But they do not know if he will even be close to the action. All sorts of ways she might get distracted and never reach the big battle or whatever. Indeed, they have talked of quite possible ways their plans could be/have been ruined. At a casual guess, it was only a 50% chance their plan would still be possible at this point. And the chance it will be ruined, or succeed without V, has got to be high.
Remember, these fiends are not all-knowing super brains. They have already been surprised, and their future knowledge is even more incomplete. So right now, the fiends seem to have paid an absurdly high price for very little.
Now the theme of selling one's soul is normally that when one sees a deal that looks too good to be true, it is. So we have very good reason to assume a hook somewhere, but so far we have little or no sign of what it will be.

[mikeejimbo]

They already got one destroyed Gate out of it though, and we have no idea how much that's worth to them. It might be worth nothing if they can't destroy the others, but it might be useful in and of itself.

Plus, their knowledge of the future may be limited, but it's by no means 0.

[David Argall]

They already got one destroyed Gate out of it though, and we have no idea how much that's worth to them. It might be worth nothing if they can't destroy the others, but it might be useful in and of itself.

Now that does suggest an idea. We have mostly been thinking the fiends want to rule the world. But destroying the world is often deemed a proper evil goal. It would certainly make the killing of lots of good dragons a trivial matter. It isn't clear how this would lead to destroying the Heavens or ending the Blood War, but it's not out of the question.
It's not even clear destroying all the gates would do anything close to destroying the world. In fact the current evidence is against it, at least it happening fast enough to prevent repair work. [Shojo thought the gods would just remake the world, which is bad for those living there, but only a bother for the gods. Of course he is no expert on the subject, but he may be the most informed mortal.] The building of new improved gates seems quite possible. And we are wondering if the Snarl is actually a threat. [It might have died or got over its snit.] So the idea is no sure thing, but it has potential and the fiends might, rightly or not, deem the odds favorable enough that the absurd bargain with V becomes a reasonable cost.
It is still a bad-looking bargain. They are getting very little at a high price. But if that little turns out to be vital to their plan...

[Taelas]

There's no reason why they cannot also be after precisely what they told V they were after: legitimacy as an organization.

It's clear that it is not the only thing they are after, but there's no reason why it can't be part of it.

Oh, and the whole 'storm the Upper Planes' thing. But that's more of a long-term goal.

[Peelee]

The problems include that the deal not only looks one-sided, it looks hugely one-sided. And the fiends, tho well-informed and smart, seem to be neither to the degree needed to make a profit on this deal.
The fiends get to take V out of action? But they do not know if he will even be close to the action. All sorts of ways she might get distracted and never reach the big battle or whatever. Indeed, they have talked of quite possible ways their plans could be/have been ruined. At a casual guess, it was only a 50% chance their plan would still be possible at this point. And the chance it will be ruined, or succeed without V, has got to be high.
Remember, these fiends are not all-knowing super brains. They have already been surprised, and their future knowledge is even more incomplete. So right now, the fiends seem to have paid an absurdly high price for very little.
Now the theme of selling one's soul is normally that when one sees a deal that looks too good to be true, it is. So we have very good reason to assume a hook somewhere, but so far we have little or no sign of what it will be.

The problem with this line of thought is your claim that the fiends paid an "absurdly high price" for "little to no profit," without considering different ideals of value. The fiends have the access and power to grant the soul splice at any time (or at least we can assume until we get evidence to the contrary). The only reason not to do this at will is they understand the value mortals place on it, so why not get something in return? The issue then becomes how badly they want something.

If I live in Diamondia, a planet full of diamonds, and visit earth, I can but anything I want with those worthless stones they value so much. I can find the value and get a fair trade. However, if I really, REALLY want something, and I want it now, I could just grab a handful and say, "trade?" The fact that you would think I got a poor deal has no bearing on the actual deal. I got something I valued more than a cheap, plentiful resource for me, and you got what you value as a pricey commodity. The deal itself was profitable for me regardless of your thoughts on the perceived value.

[BaronOfHell]

I don't see why it's a problem. I find it analogous to the chess player of 3100 rating (the very best human players rarely ever exceed 2800), which centralizes its knight and makes the opponents bishop completely impotent.. only to never get any advantage of it at all, and even ends up losing. http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1339073

The point is not the knight alone, as it's not the deal by itself. There's more on the board than what meets the eye, always.

The problems include that the deal not only looks one-sided, it looks hugely one-sided. And the fiends, tho well-informed and smart, seem to be neither to the degree needed to make a profit on this deal.
The fiends get to take V out of action? But they do not know if he will even be close to the action. All sorts of ways she might get distracted and never reach the big battle or whatever. Indeed, they have talked of quite possible ways their plans could be/have been ruined. At a casual guess, it was only a 50% chance their plan would still be possible at this point. And the chance it will be ruined, or succeed without V, has got to be high.
Remember, these fiends are not all-knowing super brains. They have already been surprised, and their future knowledge is even more incomplete. So right now, the fiends seem to have paid an absurdly high price for very little.
Now the theme of selling one's soul is normally that when one sees a deal that looks too good to be true, it is. So we have very good reason to assume a hook somewhere, but so far we have little or no sign of what it will be.

[Loreweaver15]

The problem with this line of thought is your claim that the fiends paid an "absurdly high price" for "little to no profit," without considering different ideals of value. The fiends have the access and power to grant the soul splice at any time (or at least we can assume until we get evidence to the contrary). The only reason not to do this at will is they understand the value mortals place on it, so why not get something in return? The issue then becomes how badly they want something.

If I live in Diamondia, a planet full of diamonds, and visit earth, I can but anything I want with those worthless stones they value so much. I can find the value and get a fair trade. However, if I really, REALLY want something, and I want it now, I could just grab a handful and say, "trade?" The fact that you would think I got a poor deal has no bearing on the actual deal. I got something I valued more than a cheap, plentiful resource for me, and you got what you value as a pricey commodity. The deal itself was profitable for me regardless of your thoughts on the perceived value.

This, precisely. We know the fiends have something in mind for the gates; therefore, they have a vested interest in screwing with the major players in the conflict for the gates. They shake up Xykon, putting pressure on his enemies the same way they put pressure on Vaarsuvius, and they have a leash on arguably the most powerful member of the primary heroic group involved in the gate struggle. So, David, while you may think the exchange looks like this:

Vaarsuvius acquires immense arcane power, useful in resolving several outstanding situations and potentially capable of reshaping reality on a whim
Fiends acquire forty-three minutes of control over Vaarsuvius

The actual exchange looks like this:

Vaarsuvius acquires immense arcane power, useful in resolving several outstanding situations and potentially capable of reshaping reality on a whim, which the fiends are reasonably competent will be applied haphazardly to those situations and then lost
Fiends shake up a player they want in motion rather than sitting idly by, prove that cooperation between the three fiendish demographics is not only possible, but very workable, and acquire forty-three minutes of control over a potential hindrance to their schemes, while psychologically wearing that hindrance down to the point she contemplates inaction and/or suicide.

The fiends don't care about what Vaarsuvius wants; it's largely irrelevant to their schemes, and the predictable result of giving her that power is that she will almost immediately accomplish one of their short-term goals for them. This is an extremely profitable exchange for them.

[Doug Lampert]

There's no reason why they cannot also be after precisely what they told V they were after: legitimacy as an organization.

It's clear that it is not the only thing they are after, but there's no reason why it can't be part of it.

Oh, and the whole 'storm the Upper Planes' thing. But that's more of a long-term goal.

I'm personally convinced that they want the gates to all be destroyed and the snarl turned loose.

That explains wanting pointless and destructive combat and being happy that the Linear Guild is made of fools (little to no chance that they'll actually take a gate).

And that kills ALL the good dragons, thus fulfilling their promise to Tiamat.

It also explains WHY stopping V from stopping Roy from destroying a gate was worth using almost half their V-time and giving away to V that they could grab him while he was still alive.

Otherwise why was that the time and the place to use their carefully acquired power?

[Keltest]

I'm personally convinced that they want the gates to all be destroyed and the snarl turned loose.

That explains wanting pointless and destructive combat and being happy that the Linear Guild is made of fools (little to no chance that they'll actually take a gate).

And that kills ALL the good dragons, thus fulfilling their promise to Tiamat.

It also explains WHY stopping V from stopping Roy from destroying a gate was worth using almost half their V-time and giving away to V that they could grab him while he was still alive.

Otherwise why was that the time and the place to use their carefully acquired power?

The Snarl is capable of un-making gods, which implies that its capable of traveling or otherwise affecting other planes of existence. It has also been seen as having no motivation or discrimination in targets.

The fiends seem smarter than making the classic villain mistake of unleashing an uncontrollable omnicidal eldritch abomination without regards to the fact that they WILL become collateral damage.

I suppose it is plausible that they want to force the gods to re-make the world in order to contain the snarl, but like the above plan theres nothing that really changes in the status quo, either for them or against the upper planes, if that happens.

[David Argall]

The actual exchange looks like this:

Vaarsuvius acquires immense arcane power, useful in resolving several outstanding situations and potentially capable of reshaping reality on a whim, which the fiends are reasonably competent will be applied haphazardly to those situations and then lost
The very haphazard nature is a major problem. It means plans can be ruin without the least intent to do so.



Fiends shake up a player they want in motion rather than sitting idly by,
But the odds...
There is a base 15% chance by the fiendish analysis that V never goes after X at all, and so it is a total waste.
When the big boys fight, there is a large chance that either X or V dies. Our theory says that X dying is a disaster, and they say that if they lose V, it is also ruin for their plans. V was a lock winner if she used her power at all well, but lost when he wasn't used to using that much power. Either way, the chance of both surviving, as their plan seems to require, is reduced, and by our experience of D&D battles or fights in the strip, could reduce it to single digits.



prove that cooperation between the three fiendish demographics is not only possible, but very workable,
This, they already have from the start, or can't get. Everybody involves knows that they can achieve great things if they work together. The problem is that they can't trust the other guy, and don't want to either. The case of V doesn't change that. Indeed, from their view, the three fiends could entirely be a trap set up by the "other side". "We" still can't trust those !@#$ devils/demons not to be pulling a fast one on "us".
And of course, the definition of "great things" likely differs sharply. The theory of alignments says that the difference between law and chaos is as large as the one between good and evil. While our fiends want to do evil things, they want to do different evil things, and co-operation is difficult, if not outright impossible.



and acquire forty-three minutes of control over a potential hindrance to their schemes, while psychologically wearing that hindrance down to the point she contemplates inaction and/or suicide.
But they don't get 43 minutes of control [assuming they are telling the truth, a risky proposition]. They get 43 minutes of inaction. While that can be handy, having V casting fireballs for your side instead of at has got to be way superior.



The fiends don't care about what Vaarsuvius wants; it's largely irrelevant to their schemes, and the predictable result of giving her that power is that she will almost immediately accomplish one of their short-term goals for them. This is an extremely profitable exchange for them.
As said, the "predictable" result is predicted to have a major, possibly overwhelming, chance of not happening.

[Keltest]

David, you seem to be operating under the assumption that it cost the Fiends something to soul splice V. By all appearances, it has not. An absolute worst case scenario for them would be V or Xykon getting killed in their battle, and even then they still come out with more than they had. if V dies, Xykon is still shaken up. If Xykon dies, they still have possession time of V's soul, and they can find other antagonists for the Order (like Redcloak's successor, whoever that may eventually be).

[Morty]

Looking at a plan which obviously worked and saying that it had a small chance of working strikes me as, let us say, intellectually dishonest.

[David Argall]

David, you seem to be operating under the assumption that it cost the Fiends something to soul splice V. By all appearances, it has not.
We can't trust them, but they claimed this was a once a century offer, which would make the splice quite expensive. Also we have the debt to Tiamut, which is only trivial if they succeed, and of course the beating. And we have one of them saying "“If the elf dies here, the whole thing is a huge waste of time.”-656. Also we have them fleeing from the scene of the crime quickly, as if they were taking a major risk in being there. So while we can't give an exact figure, everything point to a serious cost.



An absolute worst case scenario for them would be V or Xykon getting killed in their battle, and even then they still come out with more than they had. if V dies, Xykon is still shaken up. If Xykon dies, they still have possession time of V's soul, and they can find other antagonists for the Order (like Redcloak's successor, whoever that may eventually be).
Again, that is not their attitude. They are saying that only success will make this operation worth the cost. Possession of V's soul, even permanently, is small scale and not worth it.


Looking at a plan which obviously worked and saying that it had a small chance of working strikes me as, let us say, intellectually dishonest.
It is a simple statement of fact in many cases. If you do something stupid, you routinely still have a chance of getting away with it, but you had a much better chance to succeed by doing something else. Sometimes stupid wins, but the odds are against it and any advisor you ask is apt to tell not to be stupid despite the success.

[SavageWombat]

David, you seem to be operating under the assumption that it cost the Fiends something to soul splice V. By all appearances, it has not. An absolute worst case scenario for them would be V or Xykon getting killed in their battle, and even then they still come out with more than they had. if V dies, Xykon is still shaken up. If Xykon dies, they still have possession time of V's soul, and they can find other antagonists for the Order (like Redcloak's successor, whoever that may eventually be).

It doesn't cost nothing - it costs them three powerful evil souls that were trapped in the Lower Planes and now run free on the Prime. At minimum they have to recover the lost property, costing time and effort.

But that goes back to the "handful of diamonds" argument - if that's trivial to a pack of fiends, who cares?

[Keltest]

It doesn't cost nothing - it costs them three powerful evil souls that were trapped in the Lower Planes and now run free on the Prime. At minimum they have to recover the lost property, costing time and effort.

But that goes back to the "handful of diamonds" argument - if that's trivial to a pack of fiends, who cares?

Well, any and every action has a time/focus investment involved. But for this action, it was fairly trivial even before the handful of diamonds logic.

[Loreweaver15]

David, it would have been a stupid risk if it only had a fifteen percent chance of success--but they didn't. They had an 85% chance of success. It's a risk/reward calculation; when you're engaged in projects as big and potentially rewarding as the Fiends are, you get nothing by always playing it safe. It is absolutely worth the gamble of giving V that power if A) it costs them functionally nothing and B) has a very high chance of furthering several of their goals at once, and a 100% chance of furthering at least one of those goals.

Honestly, I'm surprised the estimated likelihood of V attacking Xykon was as low as 84%; I suspect they were being conservative with that estimate.

[SavageWombat]

Honestly, I'm surprised the estimated likelihood of V attacking Xykon was as low as 84%; I suspect they were being conservative with that estimate.

The remaining 16% is mostly for circumstances when he tries to rejoin the group and ... hijinks ensue.

[Mith]

"If our plan for the Gates really works, such a slaughter will be trivial". The slaughter in question is to kill five Good dragons for each dragon V killed with Familicide.

Quick question: How many Good aligned type dragons are there? I assume the population of any one species is roughly equal to that of the Blacks (They may not be killed as much, but that may reduce breeding rates.). Is it still feasible to kill 1.25 times the number of Black Dragons in existence pre-Familicide?

[SaintRidley]

Quick question: How many Good aligned type dragons are there? I assume the population of any one species is roughly equal to that of the Blacks (They may not be killed as much, but that may reduce breeding rates.). Is it still feasible to kill 1.25 times the number of Black Dragons in existence pre-Familicide?

There are five species of chromatic dragons and five species of metallic dragons.

Assuming that color type correlates to alignment (there is a correlation, but not all chromatic dragons are evil nor or all metallic dragons good).

What Tiamat is aiming to do is essentially kill, populations being equal across each Dragon species, 1/4 of all metallic dragons.

[Peelee]

We can't trust them, but they claimed this was a once a century offer, which would make the splice quite expensive.
That they don't do it regularly does not in any way implicate that they can't. Rare does not equal expensive, especially when we're talking about an action on someone's behalf.

Also we have the debt to Tiamut, which is only trivial if they succeed, and of course the beating.
A cost which was not incurred nor expected at time of bargaining. It did not affect their ability to grant the power in any way.

And we have one of them saying "“If the elf dies here, the whole thing is a huge waste of time.”-656. Also we have them fleeing from the scene of the crime quickly, as if they were taking a major risk in being there. So while we can't give an exact figure, everything point to a serious cost.
The only cost you have been able to confirm is that of time. And since devils, daemons, and demons are ageless, that cost is trivial, not serious.

Again, that is not their attitude. They are saying that only success will make this operation worth the cost.
Source? Specifically, them mentioning anything about the "cost" of the deal in any form of currency other than time.

[ryuplaneswalker]

It doesn't cost nothing - it costs them three powerful evil souls that were trapped in the Lower Planes and now run free on the Prime. At minimum they have to recover the lost property, costing time and effort.

I am not even sure it is effort really, when the first soul escaped the comment was

"I will have to send someone to go gather her up" and was said casually, in the sense of "I will have to send an Intern to get me coffee"

[DeliaP]

I'm personally convinced that they want the gates to all be destroyed and the snarl turned loose.

That explains wanting pointless and destructive combat and being happy that the Linear Guild is made of fools (little to no chance that they'll actually take a gate).

And that kills ALL the good dragons, thus fulfilling their promise to Tiamat.

It also explains WHY stopping V from stopping Roy from destroying a gate was worth using almost half their V-time and giving away to V that they could grab him while he was still alive.

Otherwise why was that the time and the place to use their carefully acquired power?

FWIW: I'm nursing the same theory.

I think it also explains the "technically true" part of #688 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), in that it will destroy the evil gods as well.

Also, I'd suggest that Fiends are not Deities, so it's not clear to me that they would be as vulnerable to it.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html

1. ???
2. Unify the forces of the lower planes.
3. Lay waste to all that is pure and holy.
4. Gather around great dispensers of angels' blood to discuss the previous evening's televised entertainment.

If the Gates actually work as a weapon to kill or blackmail gods, they have all the pieces they need to pull it off. (OK, we haven't seen their divine caster yet, those seem to be in short supply.)

To be honest, that bit sounds like vague "yeah, we're EEEEVIL" flannel they're giving out in front of Vaarsuvius.

I basically wouldn't trust a single word they said in front of anyone but Sabine or Quarr as to what their real plans are. And even what they say in front of Sabine or Quarr is untrustworthy compared to what they say to each other when alone.

[Keltest]

FWIW: I'm nursing the same theory.

I think it also explains the "technically true" part of #688 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), in that it will destroy the evil gods as well.

Also, I'd suggest that Fiends are not Deities, so it's not clear to me that they would be as vulnerable to it.



To be honest, that bit sounds like vague "yeah, we're EEEEVIL" flannel they're giving out in front of Vaarsuvius.

I basically wouldn't trust a single word they said in front of anyone but Sabine or Quarr as to what their real plans are. And even what they say in front of Sabine or Quarr is untrustworthy compared to what they say to each other when alone.

I trust the Lawful one to speak the truth, being Lawful (not that I have their colors memorized). I wont take it at face value, but he isn't lying.

[DeliaP]

I trust the Lawful one to speak the truth, being Lawful (not that I have their colors memorized). I wont take it at face value, but he isn't lying.

Right: it'll be "technically true". :smallwink:

[Loreweaver15]

I trust the Lawful one to speak the truth, being Lawful (not that I have their colors memorized). I wont take it at face value, but he isn't lying.

Lee is yellow, Nero is purple, Cedrik is orange.

[Keltest]

Lee is yellow, Nero is purple, Cedrik is orange.

I will, of course, never remember that. I guarantee you that if I were to write it down on a sticky note, the note would like, spontaneously combust or something.

[DeliaP]

Lee is yellow, Nero is purple, Cedrik is orange.

I believe the Giant has said that he doesn't write their dialogues as specific to any of them.... So Lee is a more-chaotic-than-usual devil and Cedrik is a more-lawful-than-usual demon, and this is part of the what makes the IFCC tick.

[David Argall]

it would have been a stupid risk if it only had a fifteen percent chance of success--but they didn't. They had an 85% chance of success.
No. They had an 85% chance of getting by A Single Problem. They would also have about an 85% chance of surviving one round of Russian Roulette . Their chance of surviving additional rounds goes down with additional rounds [especially if they play the solitaire version.]
Here, we had the chance the dragon would win, that V would not attack X [the 15%], that V would kill X, that X would kill V [stated as ruining the whole plan], that... The net chance of success goes way below 85%, and since at least two of those other ways to fail are quite large percentages, the final chance of success seems to be very low.



It's a risk/reward calculation; when you're engaged in projects as big and potentially rewarding as the Fiends are, you get nothing by always playing it safe. It is absolutely worth the gamble of giving V that power if A) it costs them functionally nothing and B) has a [I]very high chance of furthering several of their goals at once, and a 100% chance of furthering at least one of those goals.[/QUOTE]
IF. But the fiends do not act at all as tho these IFs are true. They obviously deem the likely and actual costs as low enough to make the plan profitable, but they acknowledge there are some real costs.



Honestly, I'm surprised the estimated likelihood of V attacking Xykon was as low as 84%; I suspect they were being conservative with that estimate.
They are the experts, and we can make a case it should not even be that high. Those that took such a deal were likely those that intended to attack the big bad anyway, not like V who was obsessed by other goals. So if family had been friendly [caution because the guy beating up the mugger may be a bigger mugger is not unknown, but assuming hostility? V had good reason to be shocked. And shocked enough to lose 1 splice has a high chance of being shocked enough to lose all three.], and/or re-uniting the party had required efforts by V, V just letting go of the power and never taking on X seems highly reasonable. To which we add the chance V would pause to listen and/or plan and just rolls over X. They were more likely wildly optimistic.


That they don't do it regularly does not in any way implicate that they can't. Rare does not equal expensive, especially when we're talking about an action on someone's behalf.
Try buying or selling where the word "rare" has any meaning. That word adds at least one digit to the price. It is known to add a half-dozen in some cases. & while we may not know why or how, we routinely assume that someone who rarely does something can't do it more often [or it's not worth the doing, which means it is costly in some way or another.]



A cost which was not incurred nor expected at time of bargaining. It did not affect their ability to grant the power in any way.
If you don't expect costs at the time of bargaining, you are going to be very unhappy very often. Our fiends may not know what the unexpected costs will be, but they have budgeted for them anyway. So these unknown costs still inhibit their ability/willingness to grant the power.



The only cost you have been able to confirm is that of time. And since devils, daemons, and demons are ageless, that cost is trivial, not serious.
Ageless does not mean no concern about time. If you say "waste of time", you are saying time is valuable. Otherwise, why the objection to wasting it?



Source? Specifically, them mentioning anything about the "cost" of the deal in any form of currency other than time.
Well, since one got beaten up by Tiamut and they must now do a task that will be quite hard if their plan fails, that has already been done. And their flight back to their base also speaks of fear, and thus cost. But saying "other than" is saying there is a cost, and routinely major. We have the common sort of line... "I've been fired. My wife is divorcing me. I may go to jail for life, and everybody who knows me hates me. But other than that..."


I am not even sure it is effort really, when the first soul escaped the comment was

"I will have to send someone to go gather her up" and was said casually, in the sense of "I will have to send an Intern to get me coffee"
Right, this says the cost is not high, but it does not say there is not a cost. In fact we can imagine a boss getting quite mad because his coffee is not waiting right there. So again, there is a cost.

[Peelee]

Try buying or selling where the word "rare" has any meaning. That word adds at least one digit to the price. It is known to add a half-dozen in some cases. & while we may not know why or how, we routinely assume that someone who rarely does something can't do it more often [or it's not worth the doing, which means it is costly in some way or another.]
The word "Rare" only adds value when the item in question already has intrinsic value. The ability to do something that has no cost can be infinitely rare, and worth just as much despite that rarity. I could draw you a picture of a unicorn impaling the Death Star in watercolor. That I have never made this offer before and will never make it again makes it a rare offer; it does not add any value to it, since there never was value to begin with. I could also charge whatever the hell I wanted, and the effort to make it would still be completely free on my part.

Your entire argument hinges on the assumption that the fiends paid some price to grant the soul splice, and there is absolutely no reason to believe that. That they never gave it out before only means they never wanted something enough to trade for it. That other people would pay a lot for it has no bearing on what the fiends paid for it.



If you don't expect costs at the time of bargaining, you are going to be very unhappy very often. Our fiends may not know what the unexpected costs will be, but they have budgeted for them anyway. So these unknown costs still inhibit their ability/willingness to grant the power.

First and foremost, any "unknown costs after completion of the deal" does not in any way impact their ability to grant the power. Their willingness to grant the power does not in any way add "cost" to their ability to grant the power. And I also take issue with the first sentence, but that'll get off-topic in a hurry.


Ageless does not mean no concern about time. If you say "waste of time", you are saying time is valuable. Otherwise, why the objection to wasting it?
That's a valid point. However, it further validates that time is the only cost you have thus far been able to present, and it's not even necessary for the soul splice; it's their investment in V herself.


[/QUOTE] Well, since one got beaten up by Tiamut and they must now do a task that will be quite hard if their plan fails, that has already been done. And their flight back to their base also speaks of fear, and thus cost. But saying "other than" is saying there is a cost, and routinely major. We have the common sort of line... "I've been fired. My wife is divorcing me. I may go to jail for life, and everybody who knows me hates me. But other than that..."[/QUOTE]
Fear is not a cost. Time is the only cost you have made any form of a valid argument for, and the time investment is in V, not in the soul splice. They did it instantly. It cost them no time. There is no cost on their end



Right, this says the cost is not high, but it does not say there is not a cost. In fact we can imagine a boss getting quite mad because his coffee is not waiting right there. So again, there is a cost.
I am saying there was not a cost. Prove me wrong. Tell me exactly what it cost to do a soul splice. A single, specific, constant price they must pay to slap a soul splice on somebody.

[SavageWombat]

I am saying there was not a cost. Prove me wrong. Tell me exactly what it cost to do a soul splice. A single, specific, constant price they must pay to slap a soul splice on somebody.

In fairness (I otherwise like your points) this is D&D. Any spell effect in almost any incident - there are a few tiny exceptions - costs the caster the same thing it costs Vaarsuvius to cast Power Word Stun. I.E. one of their abilities to use magic that day.

So it's an opportunity cost - they gave up whatever opportunity they had to use their time and magical effort on something else.

But for all we know, this was as trivial an expenditure as Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand.

[Loreweaver15]

David, have you ever taken a risk in your life? Gambled anything on a likely plan that, if successful, will profit you immensely in some area you're very invested in?

Also, I'm thinking you don't actually understand V's character and motivations if you think that, after being handed the reins to ultimate arcane power, she wouldn't immediately go try to Mallory Xykon once more pressing issues were taken care of.

[Peelee]

In fairness (I otherwise like your points) this is D&D. Any spell effect in almost any incident - there are a few tiny exceptions - costs the caster the same thing it costs Vaarsuvius to cast Power Word Stun. I.E. one of their abilities to use magic that day.

So it's an opportunity cost - they gave up whatever opportunity they had to use their time and magical effort on something else.

But for all we know, this was as trivial an expenditure as Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand.

Darn it... good catch. If David Argall concedes this to be the only cost (or makes an equally valid point that I did not consider), I'll concede. Since the crux of his argument is that the cost is incredibly significant, however, I doubt this will be the case.

[Sir_Leorik]

In fairness (I otherwise like your points) this is D&D. Any spell effect in almost any incident - there are a few tiny exceptions - costs the caster the same thing it costs Vaarsuvius to cast Power Word Stun. I.E. one of their abilities to use magic that day.

So it's an opportunity cost - they gave up whatever opportunity they had to use their time and magical effort on something else.

But for all we know, this was as trivial an expenditure as Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand.

There is nothing trivial about Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand! That is one of the more important spells Bugsby authored during his time with the Polyhedron of Seven and a Half!*

*Originally known as the Polyhedron of Eight, until they were betrayed by one of their own members: Rayray the Trader! Mortykraken tried to have Rayray expelled from the Polyhedron, but Rayray brought an injunction against the Polyhedron to have his expulsion stayed, pending binding arbitration. The Polyhedron lost the motion on appeal, and the arbitrator got both sides to agree to have Rayray become a Member Emeritus, with no voting powers. (They are required to invite Rayray and Lord Robliefeldar to all gatherings, invocations, family outings, picnics, barbecues and ice cream socials, which have been known to get awkward when Tennesseer, Mortykraken and Rayray are all in attendance. Even the presence of El Monster and Rustlyn can't prevent a lot of social awkwardness at these events.)

[SavageWombat]

There is nothing trivial about Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand! That is one of the more important spells Bugsby authored during his time with the Polyhedron of Seven and a Half!*

*Originally known as the Polyhedron of Eight, until they were betrayed by one of their own members: Rayray the Trader! Mortykraken tried to have Rayray expelled from the Polyhedron, but Rayray brought an injunction against the Polyhedron to have his expulsion stayed, pending binding arbitration. The Polyhedron lost the motion on appeal, and the arbitrator got both sides to agree to have Rayray become a Member Emeritus, with no voting powers. (They are required to invite Rayray and Lord Robliefeldar to all gatherings, invocations, family outings, picnics, barbecues and ice cream socials, which have been known to get awkward when Tennesseer, Mortykraken and Rayray are all in attendance. Even the presence of El Monster and Rustlyn can't prevent a lot of social awkwardness at these events.)

I keep pushing the "like" button but nothing happens.

[orrion]

I keep pushing the "like" button but nothing happens.

The only time nonexistent buttons work is when Goku does it in DBZ abridged. Otherwise, I'd have endless cake.

[David Argall]

Offline for a few days, but a closing? comment.

There is virtually nothing that is costless, and our fiends do not consider this to be an exception. They expect a huge profit if successful, but there are real costs now and probably more later. We may not be able to say what they are, to say nothing about size, in most cases, but they are well aware of at least some of them and are not viewing this project as anything like cost-free.

[Shale]

The only time nonexistent buttons work is when Goku does it in DBZ abridged. Otherwise, I'd have endless cake.

So you're saying the "Like" button will allow me to read minds?

[Keltest]

Offline for a few days, but a closing? comment.

There is virtually nothing that is costless, and our fiends do not consider this to be an exception. They expect a huge profit if successful, but there are real costs now and probably more later. We may not be able to say what they are, to say nothing about size, in most cases, but they are well aware of at least some of them and are not viewing this project as anything like cost-free.

got a source for that? Obviously they are not viewing it as literally cost free, but cost-negligible seems likely.

[orrion]

Offline for a few days, but a closing? comment.

There is virtually nothing that is costless, and our fiends do not consider this to be an exception. They expect a huge profit if successful, but there are real costs now and probably more later. We may not be able to say what they are, to say nothing about size, in most cases, but they are well aware of at least some of them and are not viewing this project as anything like cost-free.

I'm curious as to why that even matters.

There's not enough data to come to any sort of conclusion other than the most general, which is "it had a cost" and "the fiends thought whatever cost it did have was worth it."

[Shale]

The most significant cost is that they have to abandon any other schemes they might have thought up for directly controlling the Order, since none of V's allies is going to get involved with the IFCC for any reason now that they've tipped their hand. If the Gates are as important to them as they seem, that's a spare-no-expense situation.

[Keltest]

The most significant cost is that they have to abandon any other schemes they might have thought up for directly controlling the Order, since none of V's allies is going to get involved with the IFCC for any reason now that they've tipped their hand. If the Gates are as important to them as they seem, that's a spare-no-expense situation.

with the exception of Belkar, none of them were going to get involved in the first place. Durkon is (was) a lawful good cleric, Roy is both lawful good and smarter than that, Elan knows that deals with the devil/demon/daemon never go well, and Haley can spot a con from a mile away.

[Loreweaver15]

That it wasn't literally cost-free isn't the issue; that it was functionally cost-free is the more relevant point to the deal.

[orrion]

The most significant cost is that they have to abandon any other schemes they might have thought up for directly controlling the Order, since none of V's allies is going to get involved with the IFCC for any reason now that they've tipped their hand. If the Gates are as important to them as they seem, that's a spare-no-expense situation.

Honestly, who else in the party did you think would ever get involved with fiends, excepting maybe Belkar?

Plus, even though the fiends were aware of things for a little while through Nale and Sabine, there's no evidence that they set up any of the events that led to V making his deal. All they did was take advantage when V himself asked for the deal when under extreme distress.

They probably were working on other schemes since Sabine told them about the Gates. They haven't necessarily abandoned all of them, and I'm not sure that's even a cost. If you set up several different plans in the hope that one of them works then when one works you don't go "Damnit, I wish I hadn't set up the others." You go "Excellent, one worked."

[Shale]

They definitely are running other gambits - Sabine herself and installing Qarr on the Linear Guild, that we know of. They can only fool the OOTS once, though, so if this play offers them the best chance of success there (as opposed to offering some other deal to Vaarsuvius, or maybe waiting for Roy to get desperate enough to accept aid in an "enemy of my enemy" setup) then any cost would be worth it. That's all I'm saying.

[Keltest]

They definitely are running other gambits - Sabine herself and installing Qarr on the Linear Guild, that we know of. They can only fool the OOTS once, though, so if this play offers them the best chance of success there (as opposed to offering some other deal to Vaarsuvius, or maybe waiting for Roy to get desperate enough to accept aid in an "enemy of my enemy" setup) then any cost would be worth it. That's all I'm saying.

By all appearances, its part of the same gambit. They've specifically mentioned that their plan involves making sure that no one side gains control of the gate, which means that they need somebody there to oppose the OOTS. having possession of V's soul is OK, but the strategic value lies in disrupting the order rather than the soul itself.