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Lord Sidereal
2007-01-26, 12:27 PM
Okay besides using Dweomerkeeper/Incantrix/Arcane Thesis/Easy Metamgaic, are there other ways of lowering the cost of metamagics?

silvermesh
2007-01-26, 12:33 PM
metamagic rods - instantly applicable, don't raise the level, and don't even require the feat in question to use ;)

it's always good to have a metamagic rod of quicken spell lying around.

clericwithnogod
2007-01-26, 12:33 PM
The granddaddy of them all... Divine Metamagic.

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-26, 12:40 PM
Earth Spell works for Heighten Spell..

Meat Shield
2007-01-26, 01:12 PM
Use the Sudden Metamagic feats?

Douglas
2007-01-26, 01:26 PM
Practical Metamagic from Races of the Dragon is essentially equivalent to Easy Metamagic except it's harder to qualify for. Improved Metamagic is available for epic characters of level 27 or higher.

Ramza00
2007-01-26, 01:27 PM
Halruan Elder or something like that in Forgotten Realms. You choose one feat like quicken that is reduced by one level. You get to do this multiple times but to different feats.
Practical Metamagic in Races of the Dragon like easy metamagic but harder pre-reqs.
There is also a doll or something in libris mortis, a creature, that reduces the cost of necromancy spells metamagic by 1.

Person_Man
2007-01-26, 01:41 PM
Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon lets a spontanous caster sacrifice two lower level spells to cast a spell one level higher (ie, two 2nd level spells can be lost to cast a 3rd level spell).

Arcane Thesis from PHBII allows you to pick one spell, and lower the level adjustment of all metamagic applied to that spell by one step. Very potent with shadow magic.

Rods tend to be the simplest and easiest way of accomplishing metamagic abuse, though they can be expensive at high levels.

Ramza00
2007-01-26, 02:16 PM
Its halruaan elder from shining south, you can get some nice combos with him combine with incantatrix such as this build.

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Halruaan Elder 5

1 Iron Will
1 Haluran Adept
3 Piercing Cold (Cold Immunes take 1/2 damage)
6 Spell Thematics (Orbs) +1 Caster Level
9 Arcane Thesis +2 Caster Level
12 Elven Spell Lore (Fire Orb, will change the orb damage to Sonic)
15 Easy Metamagic Quicken
18 Easy Metamagic Twin

Wizard
5 Energy Substitution Cold

Incantatrix
6 Empower Spell
9 Energy Admixture Cold
12 Quicken
15 Twin

Halruan Adept
Androit Casting 1 at HE lvl 1 Quicken
Androit Casting 2 at HE lvl 4Twin

Signature Spell 1 at HE lvl 2 Fire Orb
Signature Spell 2 at HE lvl 5 Free

At lvl 20 normal quicken costs only +1 (Incantatrix 10= -1, Androit casting = -1, Easy Metamagic =-1). For Fire Orb its free due to Arcane Thesis
At lvl 20 normal twin costs only +1 (Incantatrix 10= -1, Androit casting = -1, Easy Metamagic =-1) For Fire Orb its free due to Arcane Thesis

You can spontaneous cast fire orb due to Signature Spell (Halruan Elder 2,5,8). Elven Spell Lore allows him to change this damage to any energy damage at the time of preparation and use something like force instead of fire. Remember you also now have signature spell so you can also spontaneous convert spells to signature spells, though due to the fact it takes a full round action to apply metamagic to spells you will not be doing this that often.

Damage calculations, assuming you have a spare rod of maximize. Fire Orb damage has been converted to sonic damage due to Elven Spell Lore

15d6 Base which becomes 90 Maximize, Empower adds another 26.25 average damage, total so far 116.25 damage.
Twin Spell doubles that to 232.5 average damage.
Energy Admixture doubles that again to a total of 465 average damage (232.5 sonic, 232.5 cold which cold immunes still receive half of)
Due to the huge amount of metamagic reduction it is still a 4th lvl spell

Note quicken is "free" so you will cast two spells in that round, probably of the same thing. That will be 930 Damage per round.
Note this build is not using any flaws, you can sneak some more damage in by moving down spell thematics to a 1st lvl flaw, and putting another feat sixth level. Might want to put Heighten Spell there.

Note depends on how ever your DM reads chain spell, and if it works with the orb spells, then you will want to use Chain Spell instead of twin or something.

While this is a great build, it gets even better in epic due to how good Epic Incantatrix is, and how you can use Enhance Spell and Improved Metamagic together. Switch Maximize though for Empower with your feat list and get a rod of empower instead, you can also do this for the non-epic build, its just that empower is usually better than maximize.

Halruaan Elder also allows you to be a participant (but not the leader) of circle magic.

"Anything you can do spellcasters can do better
Spellcasters can do anything better than you
...
Anything you can be Spellcasters can be greater
Sooner or later Spellcasters are greater than you :smallfrown:"

codexgigas
2007-01-26, 02:32 PM
Complete Mage has a feat that allows you to lower the metamagic cost of all spells in a specific school by one level. You can take it multiple times, applying it to a different school each time.

Douglas
2007-01-26, 03:06 PM
Yes, but Metamagic School Focus has the severe limitation of being usable only 3 times per day and only one metamagic feat can be affected per use.

Ramza00, for a truly insane high level metamagic blaster build, look in The Town forum on this site for the arena matches involving me. 930 damage per round is nothing compared to what I'm doing, though my character is 5 levels higher than the build you posted.

Ramza00
2007-01-26, 04:11 PM
Mind posting a link? I would be interested in reading it, even though once you get to this amount of damage its mostly an academic exercise, Titan 370 hps, Pit Fiend 225, Balor 290, dragons of 18-20 cr are in the 300-500 hp range, etc.

Thomas
2007-01-26, 04:15 PM
If a 25th-level wizard is even bothering to deal damage, you've not abused Epic Spellcasting enough.

Ramza00
2007-01-26, 04:24 PM
If a 25th-level wizard is even bothering to deal damage, you've not abused Epic Spellcasting enough.

And every epic game I have played has either not allowed epic spellcasting or seriously limited the amount of Mitigating Factors you can use(with good reason). Yes these are houserules, but when you get to epic and thus an almost rule-less enviroment you break out the houserules.

Seriously you have how many days to cast your epic spell and how many followers will gladly contribute there spell slots?

Douglas
2007-01-26, 07:05 PM
Mind posting a link?
Round 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28794): I went a little overboard with the immediate massacre spell-dumping here.
Round 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29655): Mirror Image fails to stop my Polar Rays.
Round 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30840): Disjunction makes a barbarian realize he has no chance and give up before I cast a single blast.
First of final matches (3 players remaining, round robin) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32146): Psychic Theurge gives me enough trouble I stop playing around.
Current match (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32653): rematch with opponent of round 2, who has changed her equipment and tactics quite a bit. Her 22 contingent Heals (crafted contingent spells from Complete Arcane allow up to one per HD) may make such absurdly high damage actually necessary since I have decided to avoid dispelling them as a handicap due to having an absurdly great advantage if I do use large-scale dispelling.

Ikkitosen
2007-01-27, 12:38 PM
On a side note, looking at those Arena fight reports makes me sad for D&D.

Lord Sidereal
2007-01-27, 01:02 PM
douglas' build is awesome. if he doesnt mind, what (or at least in my opinion) it centres round is incredibly free metamagic using dweomerkeeper and incantrix abilities, coupled with (and i may be mistaken here) arcane thesis and easy metamagic to essentially apply multiple metamagics to the (already pretty insane) polar ray.

((if im wrong there douglas, feel free to whack me with a couple of polar rays myself))

PinkysBrain
2007-01-27, 01:13 PM
Vestige Metamagic from the Anima Mage from ToM.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-27, 01:14 PM
On a side note, looking at those Arena fight reports makes me sad for D&D.

As the player of his latest opponent, I agree. Nothing against douglas himself, but :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:!

:smallsigh: I'm better now. :smallbiggrin:

Lord Sidereal
2007-01-27, 01:18 PM
Aye, talk about unstoppable builds. Having faced him with my barbarian of reasonable ineptitude, I think that just *maybe* a little more magical defense might've helped me somewhat.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-27, 01:20 PM
It's not absolutely unstoppable, but it is to our builds... CURSE YOU DOUGLAS! I would've had you with that last flurry!

Edit: the most frustrating part is that I know I could've won, if I'd done just one thing different.

Douglas
2007-01-27, 03:21 PM
I'm curious, what might that one thing be?


douglas' build is awesome. if he doesnt mind, what (or at least in my opinion) it centres round is incredibly free metamagic using dweomerkeeper and incantrix abilities, coupled with (and i may be mistaken here) arcane thesis and easy metamagic to essentially apply multiple metamagics to the (already pretty insane) polar ray.

((if im wrong there douglas, feel free to whack me with a couple of polar rays myself))
No, that's exactly right, at least as far as offense goes. 10 levels in each of dweomerkeeper and Incantatrix primarily for their capstone Improved Metamagic abilities, Arcane Thesis for one or two damage spells, and Easy Metamagic for the metamagic feats that still aren't down to 0 cost.

Here's what it looks like for my standard Polar Ray without metamagic cost reduction:
Base level 8, 25d6 cold damage
Energy Substitution +0 = 8, 25d6 fire damage
Energy Admixture +4 = 12, 50d6 fire damage
Empower Spell +2 = 14, 50d6*1.5 fire damage
Maximize Spell +3 = 17, 50d6/2 + 300 fire damage
Split Ray +3 = 20, two rays for 50d6/2 + 300 fire damage each
Twin Spell +4 = 24, four rays for 50d6/2 + 300 fire damage each
Searing Spell +1 = 25, as above, but fire resistance is ignored and fire immunity only takes off half

Through the combination of Dweomerkeeper, Incantatrix, Easy Metamagic, and Arcane Thesis, every single one of those metamagic feats has a cost of 0 additional spell levels - except Energy Substitution, it has a cost of -1 :smallbiggrin:. So, I'm casting this spell that would normally take a 25th level spell slot with my 7th level spell slots, and I can do it as many times as I have spell slots available. Average damage per ray is 387.5, I get four rays per cast, and Quicken for a second casting per round is only +1 spell level. That's 3100 damage per round if all rays hit.

For defense, I just relied on a good spell and equipment selection, insanely good saves combined with evasion and mettle, and a single Epic spell to stop those pesky Disjunctions. Metamagic, Dweomerkeeper, and Incantatrix had nothing to do with that part of the build.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-27, 03:43 PM
I'm curious, what might that one thing be?

It was here.


Aerin grimaces and pulls a charm from her sash. Her movements speed up, and a shimmering emerald field pops into existence around Douglas. She unleashes a furious series of sword blows.

Round 12: charm of bend reality to mimic temporal acceleration
Temporal Acceleration Round 1: miracle to duplicate dimension lock centered on Douglas. Move to NO11-12 +150'.
Temporal Acceleration Round 2: Shrink rod of maximize, grip longsword in 2 hands, and readies an action.

The temporal acceleration ends, triggering Aerin's readied action. She springs forward 5 feet, attacks, then moves 5 feet to the side, ending up in MN10-11 +150'.

The attack (1d20+48=58) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=845958), miss chance (1-20 misses) (1d100=94) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=845959), hits.

Douglas takes damage (5d6+43=63) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=845960).

Aerin takes another round of actions, flurrying. flurry (1d20+48=58, 1d20+48=65, 1d20+48=55, 1d20+43=47, 1d20+38=42, 1d20+33=45) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=845962) 3 hits, miss chance (1-20) (1d100=75, 1d100=92, 1d100=32) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=845966) all hit.

roll to confirm (1d20+48=68) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=845968) confirmed.

damage (5d6+40=61, 5d6+40=56) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=845974) and crit damage (5d6+80=96) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=845977).

What I should have done is this:


Round 12: charm of bend reality to mimic temporal acceleration
Temporal Acceleration Round 1: cure serious wounds SLA on self. Move to NO10-11 +150'.
Temporal Acceleration Round 2: Shrink rod of maximize, grip longsword in 2 hands, and readies an action.

The temporal acceleration ends, triggering Aerin's readied action. She activates miracle to duplicate an antimagic field.

Aerin takes another round of actions, flurrying against Douglas.

Inside the AMF, your magical protections would've been stripped away, and you would have been unable to escape my flurry via celerity. If that was insufficient to finish you off, I would then have gone into freefall with you, to prevent you from regaining your flight, etc., and pulled up at the last moment.

Douglas
2007-01-27, 03:50 PM
Read my epic spell again. AMF wouldn't have affected me at all.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-27, 04:14 PM
GAH! :furious: Ok, fine. I give up. Clearly, there was no possible way I could've beaten you. I don't know why I even bothered beyond the opening rounds.

Ramza00
2007-01-27, 05:12 PM
Wouldn't Ray Deflection put a cramp with those spell choices?

Douglas
2007-01-27, 05:47 PM
Possibly, but no one else in that competition had it. If I had gone up against someone with both Ray Deflection, high enough saves and evasion that DBF wouldn't work, and good protection against Disjunction and dispelling, I would have used one of my three power stones of Bend Reality to duplicate Psychic Reformation to change my spell selection and get something that would work against that particular opponent's defenses.

endersdouble
2007-01-28, 01:04 AM
Douglas, I have to ask--I'd not heard of those Arena fights you were in. Is this an ongoing thing/is there a new tournament starting anytime soon? Sounds like fun to me. :)

Darkshade
2007-01-28, 01:12 AM
I'm curious, what might that one thing be?


No, that's exactly right, at least as far as offense goes. 10 levels in each of dweomerkeeper and Incantatrix primarily for their capstone Improved Metamagic abilities, Arcane Thesis for one or two damage spells, and Easy Metamagic for the metamagic feats that still aren't down to 0 cost.

Here's what it looks like for my standard Polar Ray without metamagic cost reduction:
Base level 8, 25d6 cold damage
Energy Substitution +0 = 8, 25d6 fire damage
Energy Admixture +4 = 12, 50d6 fire damage
Empower Spell +2 = 14, 50d6*1.5 fire damage
Maximize Spell +3 = 17, 50d6/2 + 300 fire damage
Split Ray +3 = 20, two rays for 50d6/2 + 300 fire damage each
Twin Spell +4 = 24, four rays for 50d6/2 + 300 fire damage each
Searing Spell +1 = 25, as above, but fire resistance is ignored and fire immunity only takes off half

Through the combination of Dweomerkeeper, Incantatrix, Easy Metamagic, and Arcane Thesis, every single one of those metamagic feats has a cost of 0 additional spell levels - except Energy Substitution, it has a cost of -1 :smallbiggrin:. So, I'm casting this spell that would normally take a 25th level spell slot with my 7th level spell slots, and I can do it as many times as I have spell slots available. Average damage per ray is 387.5, I get four rays per cast, and Quicken for a second casting per round is only +1 spell level. That's 3100 damage per round if all rays hit.

For defense, I just relied on a good spell and equipment selection, insanely good saves combined with evasion and mettle, and a single Epic spell to stop those pesky Disjunctions. Metamagic, Dweomerkeeper, and Incantatrix had nothing to do with that part of the build.
i have a 30th level rogue build that would make you cry by reflecting every single one of those rays right back at you.

endersdouble
2007-01-28, 01:15 AM
Also, Douglas, I need to do a little more checking of your build, but I'm about 90% sure Incantatrix (I'd have to check Dweomerkeeper, but definitely Incantatrix) has been nerfed to -1 overall (not per spell). So, well, you might want to...revise...those totals.

Darkshade
2007-01-28, 01:17 AM
btw if arcane thesis doesnt get errataed to minimum one level when the PHB II errata comes out then they have given up on the concept of balance

Douglas
2007-01-28, 01:35 AM
Douglas, I have to ask--I'd not heard of those Arena fights you were in. Is this an ongoing thing/is there a new tournament starting anytime soon? Sounds like fun to me. :)
There was a recruiting thread in the OOC forums, but it didn't stay on the first page for very long. The one I fought in is over now. A new one is starting, but much lower level, not PvP, and not open to people who are not active members of the Town community (the forum at the very bottom of the list here). The thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33002).


i have a 30th level rogue build that would make you cry by reflecting every single one of those rays right back at you.
Infinite Deflection, Exceptional Deflection, and Reflect Arrows, right? That's what non ray spells are for, and I can change pretty close to my entire spell and feat selection with a standard action that consumes one fairly cheap magic item.


Also, Douglas, I need to do a little more checking of your build, but I'm about 90% sure Incantatrix (I'd have to check Dweomerkeeper, but definitely Incantatrix) has been nerfed to -1 overall (not per spell). So, well, you might want to...revise...those totals.
I just checked the actual text and it's per metamagic feat used (minimum 1). The errata does include a change for Incantatrix, but it's to the Instant Metamagic class feature, not the capstone Improved Metamagic.


btw if arcane thesis doesnt get errataed to minimum one level when the PHB II errata comes out then they have given up on the concept of balance
That would put a bit of a damper on this, yes, but I'd still be able to get a fair bit of mileage out of it.

Darkshade
2007-01-28, 01:51 AM
True reducing it to +1 level per thing would still get you plenty of mileage but you still couldnt touch my rogue, you'd never know it was coming, course she ended up at 42nd level with stowaway spell (timestop) and several levels of Void Incarnate. hence I win.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-28, 01:55 AM
Yes, but your build is 17 levels higher than his. The fact that a 20th level character of any class can wipe the floor with a 3rd level character of any class proves nothing.

Darkshade
2007-01-28, 01:58 AM
oh i know, i just love talking about how the character ended up at 42nd level, i have an old character sheet somewhere for the character at like 28th level though. still crazy.
i mostly was hoping to draw attention to the void incarnate, if you havent seen it you should its totally brokentastic and great

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-28, 01:59 AM
Douglas - let me see if I'm understanding this correctly - you got to apply all those metamagic feats to your spells at no increase in spell slot level whatsoever?

Darkshade
2007-01-28, 02:06 AM
in PHB II Arcane Thesis states that it reduces metamagic level cost by 1, it does not stat the usual caveat that it cannot decrease a metamagic feat below +1 level.
I think it's an errata issue
or just plain not allowed based on the fact that all the other things he has enhancing it specify that they cannot decrease the level to 0, which implies that if you are using them, regardless of whether or not its in conjunction with another feat to reduce it, that it will not allow it to be reduced to +0.
when the metamagic gets reduced to +0 by Arcane Thesis one of the other feats/class powers should kick in and turn itself off.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-28, 02:12 AM
So, in other words, yes.

That is disgusting. That is disgusting on the level of putting butter on your cheese before dipping it in lard as a light snack. That's how disgusting that is. No wonder none of the other competitors could beat your build. That's just... :furious:

Now that I have discovered this, I no longer feel frustrated by my losses against you. However, I am outraged that this travesty was permitted in the tournament, and I am very happy that I will never again have to fight your incredibly broken character.

Darkshade
2007-01-28, 02:18 AM
I have a 21st level wizard sitting around somewhere who is a Disjoiner by trade and design, do you wanna fight him?
god its great to have the final BBEG be a disjunction specialist, any earlier and everyone will whine that they dont have magic items anymore waah waaah but if its the final guy they just wine that they're dead. :)
it was 3.0 but i do believe his Mordenkainen's Disjunction DC was around 42

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-28, 02:24 AM
Do I look stupid? A disjunction specialist would leave me with even less chance. Heck, I only lasted as long as I did in my second bout with Douglas because he decided to toy with me and not disjoin all my buffs and items.

Darkshade
2007-01-28, 02:29 AM
the trick when fighting a disjunction specialist is to carry around a few lesser artifacts that way if they inadvertently disjoin them they get a god after their arse.
the great thing about the guy was that i wasn't even the one running the campaign the DM asked me to build him to take on the rest of the party while my character went on a mission. unfortunately they never even got a chance to fight him as his dragon mount powned them at their campsite when they were trying to use some really cheap buff tricks ahead of time.
the Cleric had thought that he could buff everyone like crazy with persistent spells, then everyone could sleep and he could rememorize in the morning and they could go get the bad guy with full spells and full buffs, but the bad guy sent his dragon after them and interrupted their rest, not to mention damn near killed them all.

Darkshade
2007-01-28, 02:31 AM
Do I look stupid? A disjunction specialist would leave me with even less chance. Heck, I only lasted as long as I did in my second bout with Douglas because he decided to toy with me and not disjoin all my buffs and items.

you were a monk right?
you wouldnt be as bad off as the fighters, the disjoiner had a spell from i believe magice of faerun (it was 3.0) that made you immune to any metal or stone weapon of less than +3 enhancement. he was planning on walking up to the groups melee tanks and just toying around smacking them in their faces.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-28, 02:37 AM
Monk/cleric, heavy on the buffs and wielding a longsword. Disjunction wouldn't leave me totally helpless, but it'd be close.

Oh, and the problem with equipping a character with artifacts is that you can't buy those, and even if you could, I doubt I'd be allowed to purchase one.

Douglas
2007-01-28, 03:14 AM
There are many things considerably more broken than insanely high damage for relatively low level spell slots that I'm fairly sure would have been allowed in that arena. Heck, Vael, the primary judge of that tournament and a competitor himself, ruled that Mind Blank prevents True Seeing and similar spells from seeing through Invisibility, making for almost total undetectability. His attempt to abuse this fell on its head when I noticed Psionic Mind Blank specifically restricts itself to Mind-affecting and Scrying spells, but I imagine fighting an opponent you can't even find without an extremely specialized build would be even harder than surviving my blasts. Then there's Reaving Dispel with a Greater Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell... Or maybe an epic area dispel - those even suppress supernatural abilities, and act like a targeted dispel on everything in the area - followed by whatever fight-ending attack I chose. I could go on. Quite simply, there are many many many many ways to build an insanely broken character at that level, and free metamagic isn't anywhere near the top of the list.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-28, 03:18 AM
Oh, I'm well aware of the mind blank-invisibility cheese, and it's almost as bad. Of course, not having faced an opponent who employed that trick, it's entirely possible that I'm not judging the comparison ebjectively.

AmberVael
2007-01-28, 03:32 AM
Heck, Vael, the primary judge of that tournament and a competitor himself, ruled that Mind Blank prevents True Seeing and similar spells from seeing through Invisibility, making for almost total undetectability. His attempt to abuse this fell on its head when I noticed Psionic Mind Blank specifically restricts itself to Mind-affecting and Scrying spells...
Excuse me... but that was not my ruling. That is a question (by me) you can find in the Questions and Answers by RAW thread in this forum answered by Lord Silvanos.

Douglas
2007-01-28, 03:47 AM
Your opponent is a ghost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm) sorcerer who casts Mind Blank and Superior Invisibility during preparation. At some point before the minute/level duration of the Spell Compendium version runs out, he spends 10 minutes casting the Complete Arcane version that lasts an hour/level. What do you do? I would guess either surrender or take pot shots at random squares to absolutely no effect while the ghost hurls something at you every 1d4 rounds until you give up or die. The only idea I've got that could actually hurt such a character without advance preparation designed specifically to foil this tactic would be to exploit an infinite loop to literally blanket the entire arena in an arbitrarily large number of fireballs or other potentially lethal spells that don't require being able to target the opponent.

Edit: As I recall, the answer was that it was open to interpretation.

AmberVael
2007-01-28, 03:51 AM
It was, but I agreed with the interpretation of trueseeing being covered, as did Lord Silvanos. He said it could be debated, but he agreed with the trueseeing being negated.


A. 335

I believe that you would remain unseen, but it depends on the interpretation of the term "information gathering".

Mind Blank protects against "information gathering" by divination spells and True Seeing is a divination spell.

Douglas
2007-01-28, 03:55 AM
Then you have a very different idea of what the guiding principle for interpretation should be than I do. To me, it was extremely obvious that this interpretation of this particular interaction was both cheesy and not intended, more than enough reason to interpret the other way.

Darkshade
2007-01-28, 04:26 AM
Monk/cleric, heavy on the buffs and wielding a longsword. Disjunction wouldn't leave me totally helpless, but it'd be close.

Oh, and the problem with equipping a character with artifacts is that you can't buy those, and even if you could, I doubt I'd be allowed to purchase one.

ahh you might have gotten a lucky hit in after he disjoined you then flew up to you to gloat, your sword would pass through him like hes not even there but then you could at least punch him.

spells not so helpful against the spell turning though

and i gotta agree, there is no way that that is the intent of Mind Blank, it prevents spells from gathering information on you, not from seeing through ANOTHER spell that has also been cast opn you like invisiblity, True Seeing doesn't gather information on you it just sees right through that other spell there.

Ramza00
2007-01-28, 01:02 PM
Game rules wise there is no longer a complete arcane version of "superior invisibility," for the spell compendium version has the same name and thus changes the spells powers and abilities. If one was called Superior and the other Ultimate Invisibility the Complete Arcane version wouldn't be retroconned, but because they have the same name, the CArcane version no longer exists.