[3.5] (Practically) Optimizing Sneak Attack

[gorilla-turtle]

I have been invited to join a dead gestalt game to be reanimated. The game was to be an undead/outsider heavy dungeon-crawl. I am not fully sure of the composition of the party, but I was convinced to create a front line character, and given a particularly interesting strategy to try out for said character.

The feat Clarion Commander has an ability, Perpetual Flank, that allows it to treat a target as being flanked for a full minute after its initiation. Whether or not this allows me to sneak attack those otherwise immune to it is a point of contention, but this looks like it could form the base of my attack pattern. I call out a target, then proceed to full attack it my next available moment, getting full sneak attack dice to each hit.

I was going to go Warblade//Rogue, but I'm somewhat interested in later taking a brief dip in Swordsage, to obtain the Assassin's Stance for extra Sneak Attack, and the ability to take Shadow Blade alongside Weapon Finesse, letting me drop Strength entirely. I am not sure of other classes that could be taken in the future to provide more Sneak Attack than the basic Rogue progression, beyond maybe a dip in the fighter variant that also obtains Sneak Attack.

We are going to begin at level 6; I do know that much. Most of my expenses will be in procuring a pair of +1 Daggers and decent fitting armor. At later levels, I am sure I could procure most of what would be suggested item wise. There are crystals that allow for the sneak attacking of certain types of enemies, and wands for spells that do likewise, correct? I also hearsay of Bracers of Murder, though I forget from where.

I believe we had a decent point buy to pick from for our stats. I believed in going for Int>Dex>Con>Str=Wis=Cha, given the uselessness of Str for my damage, and the lack of need for Cha beyond Social Skills. Wisdom is a borderline example, but the saving throw enhancing maneuvers of the Warblade could reasonably negate the need for it. Racially, I was considering the Air Goblin, or some variant of Gnome or Halfling.

I an open to and appreciative of further suggestions on the subject matter.

[Devronq]

I'm not family with this perpetual flank ability bit why would it cause you to be able to SA creatures normally immune?

[gorilla-turtle]

I'm not family with this perpetual flank ability bit why would it cause you to be able to SA creatures normally immune?

A possible interpretation of "treating" the target as being flanked, rather than "making" the target flanked; the latter requiring the target to be able to be flanked, the former possibly not.

It is a feat from Tome of Battle if you are interested in scrutinizing it further.

[lsfreak]

The feat Clarion Commander has an ability, Perpetual Flank, that allows it to treat a target as being flanked for a full minute after its initiation. Whether or not this allows me to sneak attack those otherwise immune to it is a point of contention, but this looks like it could form the base of my attack pattern. I call out a target, then proceed to full attack it my next available moment, getting full sneak attack dice to each hit.
You're flanking them, but flanking isn't the problem, it's that they're just immune to sneak attack. Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape works, but at half damage, only works on flanking (not denied Dex) and doesn't strictly deal sneak attack damage, so no bonuses from Craven or any other sneak-attack-only bonuses.


I was going to go Warblade//Rogue, but I'm somewhat interested in later taking a brief dip in Swordsage, to obtain the Assassin's Stance for extra Sneak Attack, and the ability to take Shadow Blade alongside Weapon Finesse, letting me drop Strength entirely.
Shadow Blade adds your Dex to your Str for damage, so you probably don't want to completely trash your Str.


I am not sure of other classes that could be taken in the future to provide more Sneak Attack than the basic Rogue progression, beyond maybe a dip in the fighter variant that also obtains Sneak Attack.
Given that warblade is providing you with all the BAB you need, you could potentially dip as many single levels as you can for more sneak attack. Personally, I'd prefer to either stick with rogue until level 10-12 to grab some of the special abilities, or more likely, PrC into assassin for grabbing (good) Hide in Plain Sight.


There are crystals that allow for the sneak attacking of certain types of enemies, and wands for spells that do likewise, correct? I also hearsay of Bracers of Murder, though I forget from where.
If you don't go Penetrating Strike, yea, there's crystals in the MIC for overcoming sneak attack immunity for undead and constructs, but they require you to have a +3 weapon, so it's not going to be available for a while (that's actual +3, not +1 with +2 worth of other bonuses). There's spells for those two and plants. But no spells or crystals to help versus elementals, nor anyone with Fortification armor... yea, I like Penetrating Strike best, even if it's half damage.
Bracers of Murder are in Drow of the Underdark (note that the +2atk/dmg is while flanking, not on denied Dex or just any time you sneak attack).

[gorilla-turtle]

@ Isfreak

I was referring to those that are immune to flanking, not those that are immune to sneak attack. The crystals and wands were to attempt to cover that angle, though as you note, Penetrating Strike is probably a better alternative.

I realize now that my previous post and not exactly specifying what I meant there probably confused a few onlookers...

I try to avoid having negatives to stats at all, so I will not completely tank my Strength or other dump stats, Especially if I choose to use a smaller race and have carrying capacity issues.

Rogue/Swordsage1-2/Assassin... I wonder how many sneak attack dice one could theoretically obtain by as much multiclassing as possible. Is it possible to have as many sneak attack dice as one has hit dice?

It seems like everything you suggested works well together so long as I keep flanking the target. Not a very sneaky sneak attacker, but an affective frontline fighter.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get at least three Rogue levels with the Death's Ruin ACF in CC, so you still get half your sneak attack dice vs undead targets.

Go something like Warblade 2/ Unarmed Swordsage 2/ Warblade 16// Rogue 3/ Spellthief 1/ Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) 1/ Assassin 1/ Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 5/ (one level each in nine more classes that grant +1d6 sneak attack at the 1st level) 9. You'll need Practiced Manifester by 6th level to get Psychic Assassin, which is only five levels for the Mind Cripple special ability. You'll want TWF, and you can use Gloves of the Balanced Hand to get Improved TWF. Greater TWF isn't really worth it since the attack will seldom hit, but you can still get it without spending a feat on ITWF with the gloves.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I actually suggest you get the Lightbringer Rogue (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) ACF, it trades trap-sense for the ability to deal half sneak attack to flanked targets even if they are normally immune to. The best part is that it explicitly calls it sneak attack so anything that triggers on SA like say Craven, is applied, couple that with Clarion Commander and you can sneak attack everything that isn't an ooze, since they are immune to flanking. Add in Darkstalker (which is a must have for rogue-type characters anyway) and you can now flank creatures with the all-around vision quality (which to the best of my knowledge are only Beholderkin, but who knows? It might be handy).

[Techwarrior]

Warblade/Rogue is a great gestalt, synergizing well with each other and making Two Weapon Fighting really viable. As you noted, Perpetual Flank is spectacular for this type of character. Take Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape) with your Rogue levels and make sure to sub out Uncanny Dodge for your favorite ACF.

If you're going to take a Swordsage dip, make sure to put it on your Rogue side. Rogues really benefit from a dip in something cool, whereas Warblade would prefer to not get delayed. Doing this also keeps your base attack at full, which is really important for a TWF. Try to take it at around 5 or 6 to grab second level maneuvers, which are [I]much[I] more viable at later levels than first level maneuvers. On the subject of maneuvers and stances, you should really be trying to grab as many ways to enable sneak attack as you can. I'm of the opinion that as a dip for Shadow Blade, Island of Blades is much more useful than Assassin's Stance. The stance even puts more synergy into Clarion Commander, making it easier to use Pile On.

Stat-wise, For what you're asking for I'd go with Dex>Int>Con=Wis>Str>Cha if you're going with 2 levels of Swordsage, and drop Wis to behind Cha if you're only taking 1. Don't dump Str beyond 10, as even with Shadow Blade you still get to add your Strength bonus. It's good that you're going to get a really good point buy, as you'll need it. Int is going to fuel your skill-monkey needs and your Warblade abilities, eventually gaining it to attack and damage while Sneak Attacking. If you want Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse (I wouldn't recommend it) you'll need to pump Dex to make it worthwhile. If you want though, you can swap Dex and Str and still be a viable TWF, especially with a 2 (or 3) level dip into Bloodclaw Master.

Feat-wise, I'd go with something like this for what you're asking. 2 flaws assumed.
Warblade 6//Rogue 4/Swordsage 1/Rogue +1
1 Two Weapon Fighting
F Weapon Finesse
F White Raven Defense (take Leading the Charge)
3 Darkstalker
W5 Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw, or Improved Initiative
6 Clarion Commander
(9) Shadow Blade
(W9) Combat Reflexes, Blind Fight, or Improved Initiative

If your going to use Strength, make it something like this.
1 Two Weapon Fighting
F Craven
F Dodge
3 Darkstalker
W5 White Raven Defense
6 Clarion Commander

(W9) Combat Reflexes
(9) Karmic Strike

[Grod_The_Giant]

Why are you going for Int as your highest stat? I'd think Dex > Con > Str/Int > Wis/Cha.

[Techwarrior]

Why are you going for Int as your highest stat? I'd think Dex > Con > Str/Int > Wis/Cha.

Skill monkey. A human rogue with an Int of 16 or 18 actually can take enough skills to be really good at all the skill monkey roles.

[Callin]

If you are able to use generic classes a 1 lvl dip in warrior and expert will net you 4d6. You can nab those at lvl 1 and 2. Then later on at lvl 11 or so you can take another level of warrior for 2 more d6

[TuggyNE]

Add in Darkstalker (which is a must have for rogue-type characters anyway) and you can now flank creatures with the all-around vision quality (which to the best of my knowledge are only Beholderkin, but who knows? It might be handy).

Also xorns and probably some other critters.

[lsfreak]

Also xorns and probably some other critters.

Wasn't there either a vestige or a soulmeld that gives all-around vision (or both)? Or maybe I'm getting confused by the ones that are fluffed like that, but then just making you immune to flanking.

[TuggyNE]

Wasn't there either a vestige or a soulmeld that gives all-around vision (or both)? Or maybe I'm getting confused by the ones that are fluffed like that, but then just making you immune to flanking.

Could be, I don't know as much about ToM and MoI.