Bozzok - Reference or Villain

[Copperdragon]

Is the leader of the Greysky City Thieves Guild a recurring villain who'll involve himself and his guild in a Hunt for Haley in some way. Either by going or teleporting himself or by sending some henchmen (or hench-crystals, in case he gets her back)?

At first it seems not likely he'll spend ressources (including his time) to chase her across a continent. He is in Greysky City, Haley is... elsewhere. It seems not to be worth the effort but when thinking about it, Bozzok does have good reasons for attempting to get hold of Haley.

He rules through fear and dominance and Haley made quite a spectacle at a) ignoring his orders not to come back and b) slaughtering his powerbase and c) defeating himself. There are good reasons to make an example of Haley if he does not want to risk his power in the future or even wants her to be a symbol others could take as example you can stand up to Bozzok.
Also, he cannot risk Haley coming back *again*, at worst accompanied with Ian. He'd suddenly have to fight for the leadership of the guild and based on how many enemies he must have there that is something he should not take lightly.
Plus, he might want to get vengeance on Haley for overcoming him and his authority. How much of a role that plays depends on his character, to which we have no insight, but it is possible this is a factor or even a big factor as well.

Given how much resources he already invested in getting his guild back up, throwing a few more teleports on top of that to make sure Haley & Family cannot cause more problems seems to put the required resources in perspective.

He is a level 18+ character who rules a local, yet still large organisation and he has a personal and business problem with Haley. People have gotten chased for much less in D&D.

So, what is Bozzok going to do? And if he does, what is the expected action - and what the worse that could happen?

[Socksy]

Hmmmm...
This is all really valid, may I contribute an opinion?

I reckon they'll face him before Tarquin, possibly even choosing to face him instead of Tarquin in order to irritate Tarquin further.

Perhaps when Tarquin finds out, he'll kill him personally. Or try to, and get defeated quietly off-panel via flanking sneak attacks.

[Mike Havran]

There is another possibility: That Bozzok took the latest Greysky lesson to heart.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Bozzok.pngHis daughter? ...No. No, I don't care about Ian anymore. Where is Haley? Is she with you?

His tone and facial expression could mean he wants to make truce with Starshines. This time, without the back door.

[snowblizz]

He is a level 18+ character who rules a local, yet still large organisation and he has a personal and business problem with Haley. People have gotten chased for much less in D&D.

So, what is Bozzok going to do? And if he does, what is the expected action - and what the worse that could happen?

But this is a story. What happened the *last* time he decided to try going against Haley? Belkar and Haley tore through the Guild like knife through hot butter. Bring in the Wizard, actual melee fighter and the Vampire Cleric and they could depopulate Greysky city, Guild, MOBs or not if they wanted. The best thing going for them would be Elan rediscovering his streak of uselessness again. Bozzok was actually lucky to escape with his life the last time and the dumbest move he did was try and go back and "fix" his situation.

The main difference between Bozzok and Crystal is that the former may actually be smart enough to realise this. If not he's a goner. At some point he would stop bothering to raise Crystal and those other assassins. He can already save 825gp a month, he should probably be satisfied with that and work his hold on the guild, live like a king of thieves for as long as he can.

Edit: As I see it Bozzok is simply a reference, tying up loose ends on the family stuff so the heroes can concentrate on the story that matters.

[zql]

I don't think Bozzok is the kind of guy that lets go, even when outclassed. But Hank? I totally see the halfling backstabbing (well, not literally, he sure is a fair amount of levels on the downside) the half-orc now that he knows that he's no boss material. Maybe he's planning a smooth move to stablish a controlled transition, even with some kind of puppet to be the face of the Guild while he takes control from the shadows.
And I don't see the Starshines having much of a problem with a guy like Hank ruling the city.

[AgentofHellfire]

He is a level 18+ character who rules a local, yet still large organisation and he has a personal and business problem with Haley. People have gotten chased for much less in D&D.

So, what is Bozzok going to do? And if he does, what is the expected action - and what the worse that could happen?

...wait, how do we know he's level 18+?

[Rakoa]

...wait, how do we know he's level 18+?

Because he was able to sneak attack Haley when she was around level...14 or 15, I think it was? Something like that. You need a four level lead to be able to sneak attack another Rogue after a certain point in advancement.

[Copperdragon]

But this is a story.

Not for the characters (at least most of them, and those who think it is a story have a lot wrong in regard to what that means). Bozzok does not belong to those who base his actions on this thought, so it does not matter here.


Edit: As I see it Bozzok is simply a reference, tying up loose ends on the family stuff so the heroes can concentrate on the story that matters.

I agree it looks like this, yes. The smart thing would be to let it drop, but Bozzok really does not strike me as this kind.
Also, when Ian is free Bozzok must be aware that it is only a matter of time until Ian shows up, and be it for vengeance only.
The guy who wants to enact vengeance, get the guild back and who was the former leader of the guild gets accompanied by his daughter, who last time slaughtered the entire guild and overcame Bozzok as well... as I see it, Bozzok should not only be concerned, he should be outright scared.

He might want to let it slide but as I think more about it he cannot afford to do nothing.

[snowblizz]

Not for the characters (at least most of them, and those who think it is a story have a lot wrong in regard to what that means). Bozzok does not belong to those who base his actions on this thought, so it does not matter here.
It's a little meta but there are numerous, most characters I think, that know they are literally in a story. Or several stories. Some of the jokes are of course based on the idea that there's not only one story going on in the world. Of course it's not always consistent but that's how it seems to me.
Crystal and Jenny discuss meta with the Nemesis/I got to pick a fight with a PC sometime (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) so they are clearly aware of this, I'd say Bozzok must be to.


I agree it looks like this, yes. The smart thing would be to let it drop, but Bozzok really does not strike me as this kind.
Also, when Ian is free Bozzok must be aware that it is only a matter of time until Ian shows up, and be it for vengeance only.
The guy who wants to enact vengeance, get the guild back and who was the former leader of the guild gets accompanied by his daughter, who last time slaughtered the entire guild and overcame Bozzok as well... as I see it, Bozzok should not only be concerned, he should be outright scared.

He might want to let it slide but as I think more about it he cannot afford to do nothing.
One flaw there is that Ian has never been the guild leader. Bozzok was the one who took control after the former leader, there was just a sizeable minority (majority?) who didn't like the new more violent direction/leadership. Not strong enough to challenge Bozzok and Crystal though.

To some degree I agree, the problem being that Bozzok doesn't have a snowballs chance against the Order. He's smarter then Crystal so at least he has a chance to realise the futility. How big a chance to see the "light" that's the question.

[Kish]

All the characters know that they're in a story; remember when Durkon got entry papers for the Empire of Blood based on the number of strips he was going to appear in in the current plotline?

That said, I don't really see how it relates to the thread's question; Bozzok is no longer interested in Ian, is interested in Haley, and now knows she's going to he North Pole, which doesn't lead me to think "he'll just leave her alone."

[Copperdragon]

Because he was able to sneak attack Haley when she was around level...14 or 15, I think it was? Something like that. You need a four level lead to be able to sneak attack another Rogue after a certain point in advancement.

Yes, something like this. You need to be four levels higher to sneak attack someone. Haley was level 14 or 15 and thought of herself as being safe (she said so in-comic) but could get sneak attack. Bozzok must at least be level 18 for that.

It is also in line for highlevel campaign worlds that the leader of a large, dominating organisation on the local scale can be near or a bit above level 20.
OotS is such a world where level 10s are not common but also far from rare and so it's no real surprise that side characters can be quite powerful (it's actually the same as Tarquin & company).

[Keltest]

All the characters know that they're in a story; remember when Durkon got entry papers for the Empire of Blood based on the number of strips he was going to appear in in the current plotline?

That said, I don't really see how it relates to the thread's question; Bozzok is no longer interested in Ian, is interested in Haley, and now knows she's going to he North Pole, which doesn't lead me to think "he'll just leave her alone."

Even if they wanted to, the guild lacks the manpower to actually pose a threat to the OOTS. And their influence outside of their home town appears quite limited, as leaving the city was enough for Haley to effectively disappear off their radar. Granted, shes a rogue, but still. Its not like shes been attempting to hide her identity at all.

[Pokonic]

It is also in line for highlevel campaign worlds that the leader of a large, dominating organisation on the local scale can be near or a bit above level 20.
OotS is such a world where level 10s are not common but also far from rare and so it's no real surprise that side characters can be quite powerful (it's actually the same as Tarquin & company).

Also, Greysky is all but a literal city of thieves, so unlike most places, it wouldn't be farfetched to say that you really need one or two levels in a PC class to survive on your own for a brisk walk down the street.

[Copperdragon]

All the characters know that they're in a story; remember when Durkon got entry papers for the Empire of Blood based on the number of strips he was going to appear in in the current plotline?

I would be careful with this. Yes, characters break the fourth wall once in a while and claim to be aware they are a story, but when it comes down to the basics, they are very aware they are not a story but their own life.
Yes, the comic is full of fourth-wall breaks, but I think you're overestimating the impact of those mere jokes on what actually happens in the story if you leave the jokes aside.
We just had an entire arc that told us: Yes, some characters think this is a story and view it as such, but it's actually not (and yes, I know it is one, but we're looking at the in-comic perspective here).


That said, I don't really see how it relates to the thread's question; Bozzok is no longer interested in Ian, is interested in Haley, and now knows she's going to he North Pole, which doesn't lead me to think "he'll just leave her alone."

Yes, very much this. I fully agree we're going to see Bozzok again in a more active role than Haley would like.

[Sylian]

Even if they wanted to, the guild lacks the manpower to actually pose a threat to the OOTS. And their influence outside of their home town appears quite limited, as leaving the city was enough for Haley to effectively disappear off their radar. Granted, shes a rogue, but still. Its not like shes been attempting to hide her identity at all.In a straight up fight? Yeah, they probably lack the power needed to threaten them. Attacking them while they're in a battle with someone else? They could do some damage that way, especially if Haley is their only target. Also, it's a Thieves Guild, chances are they're willing to use ambushes and hit 'n run tactics rather than upfront assaults.

[Ramza00]

Any chance Bozzok and Tarquin team up?

[Kish]

We just had an entire arc that told us: Yes, some characters think this is a story and view it as such, but it's actually not (and yes, I know it is one, but we're looking at the in-comic perspective here).
That is one interpretation of the past arc, albeit one I find incomprehensible with its contradiction sitting there in parentheses.

I would say, rather, that the point if the arc is that the story involves people whose lives and feelings matter, in the storyworld. And, "It's only a story, so nothing I do has any moral significance" is an evil attitude.

[Sarin]

Any chance Bozzok and Tarquin team up?

Could be, if he convinces Bozzok to take out Roy. Tarquin's first goal is to earn Elan a Klingon promotion.

But he'd off Bozzok once that is done, because he doesn't want Haley hurt...yet. That, I believe, is he saving to taunt Elan into final confrontation.

[Copperdragon]

That is one interpretation of the past arc, albeit one I find incomprehensible with its contradiction sitting there in parentheses.

I think the breaking of the fourth wall is a very complex thing. What is in paranthesis is no contradiction.

On one hand it's very obvious the characters know it's a story. But when it really comes down to what matters, all those jokes are left aside. They play no role.
It's just jokes and sillyness and for the sake of the in-universe perspective no one is truly aware it is a story. You have several layers:
Layer 1 is the OOC story, which it simply is and and such follows certain dramatical requirements. If it was not that, we had not story and it probably would not be entertaining. The characters are not aware of Layer 1, they reference it in Layer 3 but that is just purely a joke for us, the readers.
Layer 2 is what happens in-universe and how the characters work, on a fundamental level. Xykon might consider himself as the Villain or Elan might ramble about story and narration, but for them everything is serious to the bone and bad things happen - and not only because some sort of "story" demands it. What is happening in the plot is no joke to them, no story, no nothing. It is serious and not predictable. Everyone can die. Everything can go bad.
Layer 3 is the characters being funny about the story they are in or Rich using the characters to make a joke or reference but everything happening on Layer 3 has no meaning for 2 and 1, beyond being mentioned.
For what is happening in the comic "for serious" you can cut off everything happening on Layer 3.

You can disagree but I think you should at least attempt to follow what I want to outline here. Yes, OotS IS a story, yes, the characters reference it, but no, for them it is far from a story and as such, all those conventions are not driving what a character feels about all this.

It gets even more complicated as we just saw a character who tried to see what's happening on Layer 2 as story and thought he could game the system by using story conventions here. He failed, horribly and was wrong nearly about everything.

[Kish]

I do not believe I don't follow you; I just think your argument draws an arbitrary distinction between half of the fourth-wall breaking references and the other half of the fourth-wall breaking references in the name of throwing some of them out. Does your "Layer 3" have a definition other than "fourth-wall breaking references that you don't wish to acknowledge as part of the comic's story"? Zz'dtri was hauled off by lawyers in a clear fourth-wall breaking joke which actually, genuinely kept him out of the story for hundreds of strips.

Tarquin did not fail because he mistakenly thought he was in a story; he failed because he mistakenly thought he was the villain of a grim heroic epic, rather than a side villain in a comedic story.

[Copperdragon]

I do not believe I don't follow you; I just think your argument draws an arbitrary distinction between half of the fourth-wall breaking references and the other half of the fourth-wall breaking references in the name of throwing some of them out. Does your "Layer 3" have a definition other than "fourth-wall breaking references that you don't wish to acknowledge as part of the comic's story"? Zz'dtri was hauled off by lawyers in a clear fourth-wall breaking joke which actually, genuinely kept him out of the story for hundreds of strips.

That's a case where it has consequence, but it's also from the early strips and all the other cases where the characters break the fourth wall have no impact.
95% of all mentionings of the fourth wall are plain for jokes, the comic jumps back and forth in how serious it wants to be - and I do not see a problem. The problems come when someone tries to apply the meta-knowledge to the actual happenings in the story, which are wrong in 95% of the cases. Therefore I argue we should not do that.
We have different layers (it's a model, not the truth) and, what makes this complex to argue for, the layers are not always cleanly separated.


Tarquin did not fail because he mistakenly thought he was in a story; he failed because he mistakenly thought he was the villain of a grim heroic epic, rather than a side villain in a comedic story.

Yes, he tried to apply his belief in a story and it was wrong because it does not work as he thought. But I do not want to argue with Tarquin because he's the "complicating element", getting him involved makes it even more complex because he is a meta-concept that was created by Rich as cool villain by intentionally mixing all three layers I mentioned (as in: Layer 3 and 2 get mixed up and below this is the fact that Rich is telling a story).
What I do like about Tarquin is how he's created as meta-joke about the story he is in while still being a credible villain/character from the in-universe-perspective and therefore you can apply the model I mentioned here as "advanced usecase", but he is very bad to use him to explain the model.

I'm fairly certain you now might say "You cannot create a model and then exclude on big piece of the story because it does not fit that", but I do think it still applies. It just adds a Fourth layer: "The author is intentionally mixing all meta-considerations in this character because he thinks that is fun".

But the point here is not if the model I proposed is valid in all cases or not, or even if it is a good model. I just want to point out I do not think the regular statements by the characters about them being in a story and the breaking of the fourth wall (like... they are actors following a script) can be taken serious. Yes, those scenes are there and they are funny but when we look at the story the OotS tells we have to exlude these scenes (do not get confused by that not applying in all cases) or the entire narrative breaks down.
OotS tells a often grim story about the future of the universe, horrible things happening in the characters lives and and a lot of character development families which is ruined if you consider the characters just being played by actors or do guest appearances in some RPG magazine.
What we consider "OotS" is actually three or four entirely different concepts of OotS that intermingle once in a while for fun and entertainment of the reader (as that, in the end, is what all this is about (well, apart from Rich wanting to be able to make a living off it)).

tl;dr
No, we should not take the fourth-wall statements too serious in regard to the "in comic" story we are getting told.

[Kish]

95% of all mentionings of the fourth wall are plain for jokes, the comic jumps back and forth in how serious it wants to be - and I do not see a problem. The problems come when someone tries to apply the meta-knowledge to the actual happenings in the story, which are wrong in 95% of the cases.

An easy claim to make. A hard one to support. But, since I actually gave you a counterexample to your claim and you handwaved it away and reasserted your claim without any effort to support it, continuing to argue the case looks unrewarding.

[Copperdragon]

If anyone bothered you can find countless examples where the fourth wall is broken passingly by various characters without that being any proof for anything or having any significance for the plot.
And I am also very certain you remember at least a dozen cases. RL references are also often given when "it does not matter!" where something comes from. Or do you really think Xykon buys magical rings off ebay? Or that it matters that Xykon wants certain things to be restricted to the "fanfiction sites":
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html

It's played as a joke for us. No character is going to change his or her view on the threat Xykon is because "they are just in a narrative".

And no, I am not doing a many-hours-long RL literary analysis of all fourth wall occurances and categorise them and write a thesis for a clueful and smart longtime-reader as you are. I say what I have to say, you know many of the occurances I reference in the comic. If you cannot be bothered to think about it and base a verdict on the outcome of that, I am fine to drop it.

What I do want to say (and already did): do not overestimate the impact the supposed knowlegde of the characters of them being in a story (in my model usually happening on layer 3) has on the story (happening first on layer 1 and then 2). You are of course free to do that, but for myself I dismiss such estimates as "unappropiate and only correct by chance or in rare exceptions".

Xykon's actor and Haley's actor are not going to meet in the cantina of a long day. Xykon know's he's a cliche villain, but this "life" he's in is not a story. It is all real for him and anything contradicting it is just the author playing meta jokes because the are funny and entertaining. But Xykon is not going to take himself any less serious or different because of it and neither is anyone else.

[Ridureyu]

The breaking of the fourth wall in this strip is for whenever it is most funny. Even that time they snagged the diamond from the cast page was there to resolve a joke/roadblock set up in the same comic. No more, no less. Any other discussion is just meaningless arguing, empty prattle, and a foolish waste of time.

[Targ Collective]

Agreed. That said, I am impressed with the intelligence and thought copperdragon has put in (His? Her?) post and do not see a handwave anywhere, merely a clarification of meaning. But it is probably unfair to expect everyone to comfortably think in 'levels' and comprehend what is being said.

[Kish]

Agreed. That said, I am impressed with the intelligence and thought copperdragon has put in (His? Her?) post and do not see a handwave anywhere, merely a clarification of meaning.
Oh?

Would you like to explain how to tell the difference between the claimed majority of fourth-wall breakages, that should be treated as "this didn't actually happen" as far as the story is concerned, and the ones that are actually part of the story, then? Without resorting to either "the only way to tell is to look back after the story is done" or "it's obvious."

Or--just to make sure I'm being clear--to say what you believe the evidence to be that there is such a distinction? (For that question, "Because fourth wall breakages are too silly for the idea that, e.g., Xykon actually bought a ring on eBay to be borne" is an inadequate answer.)

[Targ Collective]

What? That's not what he (or she) is saying. He (or she) is saying that a lot of the jokes breaking the fourth wall are there as *jokes*, not to be taken seriously, and that there is a level operating in the story that is real to our protagonists as our world is to us. What's the problem with that statement?

EDIT: Oh, I see your confusion. I agree that there can be a grey area where the layers mingle. But then again, copperdragon never said there wasn't - and the only person who can ultimately define what is on what layer is Rich. This does not make the layer example any less valid.

[Kish]

What? That's not what he (or she) is saying. He (or she) is saying that a lot of the jokes breaking the fourth wall are there as *jokes*, not to be taken seriously, and that there is a level operating in the story that is real to our protagonists as our world is to us. What's the problem with that statement?

The lack of evidence for the "a lot of the jokes breaking the fourth wall (didn't happen in terms of the story)" part.


EDIT: Oh, I see your confusion.

Look, would you cut that out? Disagreeing with you and Copperdragon does not make me confused. I consider it just possible that it is the advocates of "there is a level of the comic on which some fourth-wall breakages should be arbitrarily declared to be things that didn't actually happen" who are confused.

[Targ Collective]

No, they happened, and copperdragon never said that they didn't happen - what he's saying is they have no *plot relevance*. And except for exceptions he is correct.

[Rakoa]

And except for exceptions he is correct.

I would just like to drop by for a second to mention that anything anyone every says ever is correct except for exceptions.

[Targ Collective]

I was wondering if some cleverdick would make that point. Very well. Except for *rare* exceptions he is correct.

[Carl]

villan, there's just no reason to bring him up the way he was if he wasn't about to become impirtant. Why have him take a drop everything else interest in Haley.

As for the threat level. Remember that rouges rely pretty heavily on their sneak attack damage to boost their combat power to useful level's. Belkar was able to keep them from hitting him at all through several means and Haley had protection from all but bozzok himself. That's not necessarily going to apply to the rest of the OotS. They also clearly have some wizard's, bards, and that fighter outreach program, plus a lot of the local clerics in their pockets.

In the end though i more or less expect them to become kingmakers in the whole deal. Not powerful enough to get any one side alone, but a big enough threat to tip the scales. The question is going to be where they come down. Haley may be a major threat to him in some way's, but some of the other sides could be worse since they'd likely wish to annihilate the guild if they won. He probably still won't end up siding with the OotS IMO, but i'd be surprised if he comes down on the archdevils or Xykon's sides.

[Copperdragon]

I would just like to drop by for a second to mention that anything anyone every says ever is correct except for exceptions.

There's a reason the word "rare" was there. The world is not binary and neither is this here. At one point you have to decide what you do with the "grey" and if it's big enough to be left in or small enough to cut out. I decided to cut it out, as there are only few occurances and some of them also occured early in the comic.