Using a Wish spell to build a city

[Clistenes]

I have a few questions about the viability of it.

If you have a deal with a Djinn or Solar or just are willing to spend the XP...would creating a huge castle or a curtain wall or a block of houses count as "creating a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value"?

And if you were willing to do so...how many houses do you think would a single casting of Wish create?

How about a Lyre of Building? Has anybody calculated how many houses would it build per hour? How much time to raise a castle?

Thank you very much in advance.

[Phyxion]

Lyre of Building says for each 30 minutes of playing, you get the effect of 100 humans laboring for 3 days, so 300 person-days.

According to http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/4731, 350 people can build a house in 2h45m, which is 962.5 person-hours of building.

We know that a laboring human will not be actually laboring 24 hours; being generous (or considering peasant labor forces who have no choice in the matter) we can estimate 12 hours of actual work per worker per day, giving us 3600 person-hours of labor for each 30 minutes of playing the Lyre.

We also know there was a large amount of pre-fab components used to make the "world speed record" house, I'll make an off-the-cuff estimate of 4 hours making the prefab for each hour of assembly (I don't know construction work, this is a SWAG), indicating one house takes 4812.5 hours of labor. 4 hours of manufacture plus 1 hour of assembly = 5 hours total, multiplied by 962.5 person-hours per house. For simplicity, let's round that to 4800.

Dividing both of those numbers by 1200 (keeps the ratio the same, but easier to comprehend and work with smaller numbers), we get 3 "labor units" (each 1200 person-hours of labor) per 30 minutes of playing the Lyre, and building a single house takes 4 labor units. So, in 2 hours (4 * 30 minutes), you get 3 houses. Typical D&D/PF assumptions are that you get 8 hours of "work" (adventuring, crafting, etc) per day, so if you succeed in all the DC 18 Perform checks, you'd get 12 houses per day. If you had 3 people capable of using the Lyre, then a single Lyre (being used 24 hours/day) would max out at 36 houses per day.

Now, according to How Castles Work (http://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-figures/castle5.htm), building a castle takes 3000 workers anywhere from 2-10 years to complete. A year is 365 days, but we're not slave drivers, so we'll give the workers 1 day off per week, leaving us with 313 days of labor per year. Multiply that by 3000 workers to get 939,000 person-days of labor per year, multiply that by 12 to get 11,268,000 person-hours of labor per year, and finally multiply by (we'll take an average value) 6 years to get 67,608,000 person-hours of labor required to build a castle. Now, we divide that by 3600 person-hours per 30 minute Lyre use to get 18,780 uses to build a castle. With one person using the Lyre, you get 16 uses per day, which means building the average castle would take 1173.75 days, but with 3 people using the Lyre continuously, it would only take 391.25 days to build the average castle. Still over a year, though.

I would imagine most GMs would probably not want to do all the math, so you may be able to get away with simply wishing for a castle. If he wants numbers or otherwise needs convincing, let's go a little further and see what the labor cost of building a castle would be in PF.

According to the hireling cost table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/hirelings-servants-services), trained laborers cost 3sp/day. With 3000 workers laboring for 6 years, that's 16,902,000 sp, or 1,690,200 gp. Dividing by 25000 gp (the generally accepted value of what can be done by a single wish) we get 67.6, and the default in PF is to round down, so 67 wishes would do the job.

It all comes down to "how valuable is your adventuring time" and "does the GM/group want to play medieval economy simulator or a fantasy RPG". Assuming you make a deal with a wish-casting creature, you could probably convince your GM to handwave it, so about 2 months later (or less if the creature gets multiple wishes per day) you have a castle; meanwhile your group goes off to do fun things instead of math, and the GM has a ready-made adventure hook in the form of whatever you end up offering the wish-casting creature for that service.

Hope this helps... :)

[XmonkTad]

Looking at this from an RP perspective, having a deal with the Solar/Djinn could be interpreted as "performs you a single service" rather than "uses Wish SLA once and only once ". By that interpretation, you could wish for the castle and 67 days later the Solar/Djinn would finish building it by the fastest means available to them (their Wish SLA).

Although since the SRD for wish says you can wish for a magic item, but puts no cost limit on the item the same way it does for a mundane item, you could just wish for a magical castle/city and be done with it.

[Fax Celestis]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#urbanAdventures

Buildings are priced.

A wish can make five grand houses or half of a tower or moat. You need four wishes to make a mansion, and 40 to make a castle.

[Clistenes]

Lyre of Building says for each 30 minutes of playing, you get the effect of 100 humans laboring for 3 days, so 300 person-days.

According to http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/4731, 350 people can build a house in 2h45m, which is 962.5 person-hours of building.

We know that a laboring human will not be actually laboring 24 hours; being generous (or considering peasant labor forces who have no choice in the matter) we can estimate 12 hours of actual work per worker per day, giving us 3600 person-hours of labor for each 30 minutes of playing the Lyre.

We also know there was a large amount of pre-fab components used to make the "world speed record" house, I'll make an off-the-cuff estimate of 4 hours making the prefab for each hour of assembly (I don't know construction work, this is a SWAG), indicating one house takes 4812.5 hours of labor. 4 hours of manufacture plus 1 hour of assembly = 5 hours total, multiplied by 962.5 person-hours per house. For simplicity, let's round that to 4800.

Dividing both of those numbers by 1200 (keeps the ratio the same, but easier to comprehend and work with smaller numbers), we get 3 "labor units" (each 1200 person-hours of labor) per 30 minutes of playing the Lyre, and building a single house takes 4 labor units. So, in 2 hours (4 * 30 minutes), you get 3 houses. Typical D&D/PF assumptions are that you get 8 hours of "work" (adventuring, crafting, etc) per day, so if you succeed in all the DC 18 Perform checks, you'd get 12 houses per day. If you had 3 people capable of using the Lyre, then a single Lyre (being used 24 hours/day) would max out at 36 houses per day.

Now, according to How Castles Work (http://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-figures/castle5.htm), building a castle takes 3000 workers anywhere from 2-10 years to complete. A year is 365 days, but we're not slave drivers, so we'll give the workers 1 day off per week, leaving us with 313 days of labor per year. Multiply that by 3000 workers to get 939,000 person-days of labor per year, multiply that by 12 to get 11,268,000 person-hours of labor per year, and finally multiply by (we'll take an average value) 6 years to get 67,608,000 person-hours of labor required to build a castle. Now, we divide that by 3600 person-hours per 30 minute Lyre use to get 18,780 uses to build a castle. With one person using the Lyre, you get 16 uses per day, which means building the average castle would take 1173.75 days, but with 3 people using the Lyre continuously, it would only take 391.25 days to build the average castle. Still over a year, though.

I would imagine most GMs would probably not want to do all the math, so you may be able to get away with simply wishing for a castle. If he wants numbers or otherwise needs convincing, let's go a little further and see what the labor cost of building a castle would be in PF.

According to the hireling cost table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/hirelings-servants-services), trained laborers cost 3sp/day. With 3000 workers laboring for 6 years, that's 16,902,000 sp, or 1,690,200 gp. Dividing by 25000 gp (the generally accepted value of what can be done by a single wish) we get 67.6, and the default in PF is to round down, so 67 wishes would do the job.

It all comes down to "how valuable is your adventuring time" and "does the GM/group want to play medieval economy simulator or a fantasy RPG". Assuming you make a deal with a wish-casting creature, you could probably convince your GM to handwave it, so about 2 months later (or less if the creature gets multiple wishes per day) you have a castle; meanwhile your group goes off to do fun things instead of math, and the GM has a ready-made adventure hook in the form of whatever you end up offering the wish-casting creature for that service.

Hope this helps... :)

Thank you very much, that can help me as a start.

I have been reading the Stronghold Builder's Guide, but it doesn't make sense that even a skilled worker with the highest pay (4 sp/day) would have to work for 74 years to pay a diminutive "house" with a kitchen and a bedroom (2,700 gp).

The Lyre can be used only 1/day, so it would build 12 houses/day at best. and the castle would take more than three years to complete.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#urbanAdventures

Buildings are priced.

A wish can make five grand houses or half of a tower or moat. You need four wishes to make a mansion, and 40 to make a castle.

The problem is, those prices are zany. A very well-paid skilled worker "only" needs to work for 13-14 years to buy a tiny three-rooms house...assuming he doesn't need to spend a copper for food, clothing or firewood, doesn't pay taxes and that he's freeloading in somebody else's house all that time.

As for less skilled workers, they would have to work for 27 years to pay one of those tiny houses that could probably be built by one of them in quite less than a single year.


Although since the SRD for wish says you can wish for a magic item, but puts no cost limit on the item the same way it does for a mundane item, you could just wish for a magical castle/city and be done with it.

I don't think that would be allowed. I think somewhere is written that a building isn't considered an item, and that wondrous architecture are considered a cluster of wondrous items, not a single magical item.

[unseenmage]

A single given piece of Wondrous Architecture is a single Magic Item that is either immobile or exceedingly difficult to move. Wish could make it.

A Stronghold as per the SBG is not a cottage or a house. Just be careful where you draw this distinction. Poking holes in the ruleset by applying it where it doesn't belong isn't exactly fair to the folk who use it and enjoy it or the folk who worked hard to bring it to us. :smallfrown:

Also be careful applying real world construction times to old world construction. Back in the day buildings were extra super time consuming to build. Without motorized transportation, plywood, and nailguns everything had to be hand crafted and hand carried (or horse carried but that barely saves you time, horses are jerks :smalltongue:). Every. Single. Piece.

Not surprisingly, construction is unlikely to happen right on top of resources so transportation time for stone, lumber, etc is tough and very time consuming. As said transportation often predates road construction it often only got harder the farthur into the project you got. (Think logging roads without great big tires to offset all that mud.)


I have little to no problem with the build times in the SBG. There were a lot of difficulties in constructing in ancient times that we barely even consider in our modern world. Convenience is king for us, but to them it would have been lifesaving.

[Phyxion]

The Lyre can be used only 1/day, so it would build 12 houses/day at best. and the castle would take more than three years to complete.
Not exactly, at least by the the PF rules for Lyre of Building (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/lyre-of-building). It can be used pretty much forever for building, as long as you keep making the Perform checks. Only the negating attacks against architecture use is limited to once per day.

Also, the SBG is 3.X, so it won't necessarily be exactly the same as the PF rules, especially since Wish was changed in PF (no XP cost, for one thing).

[Phyxion]

A Stronghold as per the SBG is not a cottage or a house. Just be careful where you draw this distinction. Poking holes in the ruleset by applying it where it doesn't belong isn't exactly fair to the folk who use it and enjoy it or the folk who worked hard to bring it to us. :smallfrown:

Also be careful applying real world construction times to old world construction. Back in the day buildings were extra super time consuming to build. Without motorized transportation, plywood, and nailguns everything had to be hand crafted and hand carried (or horse carried but that barely saves you time, horses are jerks :smalltongue:). Every. Single. Piece.

Not surprisingly, construction is unlikely to happen right on top of resources so transportation time for stone, lumber, etc is tough and very time consuming. As said transportation often predates road construction it often only got harder the farthur into the project you got. (Think logging roads without great big tires to offset all that mud.)

I have little to no problem with the build times in the SBG. There were a lot of difficulties in constructing in ancient times that we barely even consider in our modern world. Convenience is king for us, but to them it would have been lifesaving.
Yep. I tried to account for the difference between pre-fab and simply having the materials nearby. I figure, since my number is within an order of magnitude of the SBG number, it's probably close enough :) The numbers are just there in case the GM wants to be a hard case about what's "reasonable" and needs some convincing, not to be a dissertation. If everyone is having fun, that's what matters.:smallcool:

[Clistenes]

A single given piece of Wondrous Architecture is a single Magic Item that is either immobile or exceedingly difficult to move. Wish could make it.

But how do you define a single piece of Wondrous Architecture? A whole building? Or is every space under a different effect considered a different piede of Wondrous Architecture?.


A Stronghold as per the SBG is not a cottage or a house. Just be careful where you draw this distinction. Poking holes in the ruleset by applying it where it doesn't belong isn't exactly fair to the folk who use it and enjoy it or the folk who worked hard to bring it to us.

Those basic units are used for inns and taverns and things like that, not just castles. Anyway, a 1-3 rooms house costs 1,000 gp. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#urbanAdventures), which is too much if a worker earns 1-4 sp/day.


Also be careful applying real world construction times to old world construction. Back in the day buildings were extra super time consuming to build. Without motorized transportation, plywood, and nailguns everything had to be hand crafted and hand carried (or horse carried but that barely saves you time, horses are jerks :smalltongue:). Every. Single. Piece.

Not surprisingly, construction is unlikely to happen right on top of resources so transportation time for stone, lumber, etc is tough and very time consuming. As said transportation often predates road construction it often only got harder the farthur into the project you got. (Think logging roads without great big tires to offset all that mud.)

Well, players would be able to create their own nails with Wall of Iron+Fabricate+Magecraft, their wood with Wall of Iron+Transmutate Metal to Wood, their own stone with Wall of Stone or Transmutate Mud to Stone...etc. Or they could use a Portable Hole to teleport at least some of the building materials.

As for mundane people, I know a few old men who used to build houses without electric tools, just mortar, bricks, basic tools and wooden scaffolding that they made themselves using planks and poles. And I'm quite sure that any of them could have built a three-rooms house in less than a year.
As for the building materials, they would be transported by people who would get paid about 1-3 sp/day, and the wagon itself only costs 35 gp.

As for real, life Middle Ages, a peasant's house would cost 1-3 pounds to build, and a laborer could be paid up to 2 pounds for year of work. A skilled worker like a master carpenter or mason could be paid 3-4 pence a day, 4.56-6.08 pounds per year. An armorer could get as much as 18 pence a day, 27.37 pounds per year.


I have little to no problem with the build times in the SBG. There were a lot of difficulties in constructing in ancient times that we barely even consider in our modern world. Convenience is king for us, but to them it would have been lifesaving.

I have not mentioned the building times in the SBG, only the prices.

[unseenmage]

But how do you define a single piece of Wondrous Architecture? A whole building? Or is every space under a different effect considered a different piede of Wondrous Architecture?.

You define it the same as with any other magic item. If many effects are tied to the same physical item (be it the room or an altar or whatever) then that single item is more expensive (*1.5 per additional effect).


Those basic units are used for inns and taverns and things like that, not just castles. Anyway, a 1-3 rooms house costs 1,000 gp. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#urbanAdventures), which is too much if a worker earns 1-4 sp/day.

It's my understanding that in the society being emulated in basic D&D workers don't own anything, let alone homes and taverns.


Well, players would be able to create their own nails with Wall of Iron+Fabricate+Magecraft, their wood with Wall of Iron+Transmutate Metal to Wood, their own stone with Wall of Stone or Transmutate Mud to Stone...etc. Or they could use a Portable Hole to teleport at least some of the building materials.

And there are listed price breaks for using PC abilities to build Strongholds. They're not perfect of course, but the explanation given is that Stronghold creation is a complex process meant to be accomplished over a long term.

Sure PCs can cheese out a Stronghold analogue faster via magic, but the rules in the book aren't meant for that level of less abstraction. They're meant to be an automated Stronghold that builds itself while adventurers, you know, adventure.


As for mundane people, I know a few old men who used to build houses without electric tools, just mortar, bricks, basic tools and wooden scaffolding that they made themselves using planks and poles. And I'm quite sure that any of them could have built a three-rooms house in less than a year.
As for the building materials, they would be transported by people who would get paid about 1-3 sp/day, and the wagon itself only costs 35 gp.

As for real, life Middle Ages, a peasant's house would cost 1-3 pounds to build, and a laborer could be paid up to 2 pounds for year of work. A skilled worker like a master carpenter or mason could be paid 3-4 pence a day, 4.56-6.08 pounds per year. An armorer could get as much as 18 pence a day, 27.37 pounds per year.

Here you're waffling some between accepting that this is a game whose rules govern itself and wanting it to be a simulationist experience where the rules mimic life. If you want simulation then just take your superior factfinding skills and do your own math for your resultant Stronghold. There is nothing wrong with preferring a higher simulation level than the rules supply.

If however your goal is to just build a Stronghold then either use the book or don't. Just do whichever is more fun for you. Using real world analogues to poke holes in D&D isn't fun for me personally, I just like when my character gets to have a castle. So I use the book and choose to ignore its lack of real-ness just as much as I choose to ignore the lack of real-ness in dragons flying or moving faster diagonally across a grid in combat.


I have not mentioned the building times in the SBG, only the prices.

My apologies, I know time was mentioned (or has been mentioned in previous SBG bashing threads) and the price of a Stronghold outputs its build time so the two are intrinsically linked. Again, my apologies if I misspoke.

[Fax Celestis]

The problem is, those prices are zany. A very well-paid skilled worker "only" needs to work for 13-14 years to buy a tiny three-rooms house...assuming he doesn't need to spend a copper for food, clothing or firewood, doesn't pay taxes and that he's freeloading in somebody else's house all that time.

As for less skilled workers, they would have to work for 27 years to pay one of those tiny houses that could probably be built by one of them in quite less than a single year.
No they're not. Ask yourself: how many people do you know are capable of going out and buying a house, right now, with cash? Very few. Most people have to buy a house over a course of time, via a mortgage. Most mortgage terms are, incidentally, 40 years. They're very reasonable and realistic prices.

[INoKnowNames]

No they're not. Ask yourself: how many people do you know are capable of going out and buying a house, right now, with cash? Very few. Most people have to buy a house over a course of time, via a mortgage. Most mortgage terms are, incidentally, 40 years. They're very reasonable and realistic prices.

While I can agree with this entirely, I'd still like to note that a +1 Dagger is worth a little over double the value of a basic level house. Which does seem strange, at least to me.

[Coidzor]

You can't use the Lyre once a day to build. The once a day function is the protection of inanimate objects from damage for half an hour. Which can still be useful, if, say, you've got a [dragon or something] trying to crack open your gates, you throw that up and then deal with the [dragon] rather than having to actually worry about them taking out the gate while you take them out.


The lyre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#lyreofBuilding)is also useful with respect to building. Once a week its strings can be strummed so as to produce chords that magically construct buildings, mines, tunnels, ditches, or whatever. The effect produced in but 30 minutes of playing is equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for three days. Each hour after the first, a character playing the lyre must make a DC 18 Perform (string instruments) check. If it fails, she must stop and cannot play the lyre again for this purpose until a week has passed.

[Edit: IIRC, you can just take 10 on these Perform Checks, and while presumably the Lyre is Masterwork(or will be if you have it made instead of just finding it), disregarding that bonus, it just takes the equivalent of 5 levels of invested skillpoints with a Cha mod of +0 to have the skillpoints for that(and with the ability to shuffle around feats such as skill focus or reallocate one's skillpoints that comes online around mid to mid-high level...).]

We don't know if that's 100 humans laboring for 3 days of 8 hour shifts or 100 humans laboring for a hypothetical full 24 hours or something in between, so that's a DM judgment call. I'd tend to lean towards something more generous than 8 hour shifts though, such as literally a full day's worth of non-stop laboring because magic.

Also, if you're not having an undead or warforged playing the Lyre of Building, you're sort of wasting its potential though, given the once a week interpretation. Or at least having someone play it and having lesser restorations cast on them every so often. Especially if you're restricting it to the idea of condensing three 8-hour shifts of labor into half an hour. It seems to me that in order to get full use of it, you'd want to be able to get everything done that you want done that week in one session, which might entail playing for between several days straight and the full week.


No they're not. Ask yourself: how many people do you know are capable of going out and buying a house, right now, with cash? Very few. Most people have to buy a house over a course of time, via a mortgage. Most mortgage terms are, incidentally, 40 years. They're very reasonable and realistic prices.

The prices are kind of zany WRT to the Wish spell, since, as you showed, it takes 40 9th level spells to translate into one (fairly basic IIRC) castle.

[Ruethgar]

With a Solar, see about Wishing for a Circle Magic War Ice Castle and making it permanent. That is 1000 castles with perimeters of 800 feet each.

If you don't want to confront the DM about applying permanency to a spell that doesn't have it listed as applicable, Circle Magic War Wall of Stone gives you 1000 walls of stone 20ft long, 10in thick and 10ft tall. You should be able to make plenty of buildings with that.(of course using Stronghold Builder's Guide it just makes it where you don't have to pay for walls for 200 stronghold sections leaving a lot of the cost still present)

[Fax Celestis]

While I can agree with this entirely, I'd still like to note that a +1 Dagger is worth a little over double the value of a basic level house. Which does seem strange, at least to me.

Which is still something that most people won't have or need in their daily life. Consider thus: my father in law is a machine shop foreman. He makes $45k a year. However he works with machines daily that were purchased for more than $1m. Several of them, incidentally. Similarly, while an average peasant won't need a +1 dagger in day to day life, the ones that need one for those profession will likely have their cost subsidized by the company they work for.

D&D's economy and infrastructure doesn't work if you treat it like medieval Europe: the existstence of magic has supplanted technology and has made the game more consistent with our modern society. Even doctors work with a variety of tools daily that are well out of their ability or personally afford.

Tl;dr: subsidization

[Fax Celestis]

The prices are kind of zany WRT to the Wish spell, since, as you showed, it takes 40 9th level spells to translate into one (fairly basic IIRC) castle.

Not really. Consider that creating a temporary mansion is a 7th level spell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

When you notice it would take a laborer 30 years of savings to buy a house it -seems- unreasonable but, when you stop and think about it, it's really not.

Look at how much houses in a modern market cost. If you want to -buy- a house, already built, you're going to be paying for it for a decade or two.

Outside of a city, you don't -buy- a house, you don't even buy the 333.33gp worth of raw materials to build a house. You go out and gather the raw materials from the surrounding terrain; wood in or near a forest, adobe in a savannah or desert, etc; and you build it over the course of a few days with the aid of your neighbors; paying them in favors either down the line or previously given, typically.

This is not a modern society. Common folk in smaller communities rarely trade in cash for anything larger than some kitchen supplies; like cutlery or a few bags of flour.

[Coidzor]

With a Solar, see about Wishing for a Circle Magic War Ice Castle and making it permanent. That is 1000 castles with perimeters of 800 feet each.

If you don't want to confront the DM about applying permanency to a spell that doesn't have it listed as applicable, Circle Magic War Wall of Stone gives you 1000 walls of stone 20ft long, 10in thick and 10ft tall. You should be able to make plenty of buildings with that.(of course using Stronghold Builder's Guide it just makes it where you don't have to pay for walls for 200 stronghold sections leaving a lot of the cost still present)

At the very least, the central tower is blue ice, so that should-maybe stick around without permanency? Not sure about the other towers though, they may or may not be blue ice from the wording of the spell. Was that clarified? :smallconfused:

[Ruethgar]

At the very least, the central tower is blue ice, so that should-maybe stick around without permanency? Not sure about the other towers though, they may or may not be blue ice from the wording of the spell. Was that clarified? :smallconfused:

The second to last paragraph of the spell(just before arcane focus) brings some clarity in only saying that the central tower is blue ice, but still, you have 1000 of them, surely that could work for something, especially depending on how you modeled the towers.

[Qwertystop]

Wait, there's a spell called Circle Magic War Ice Castle?
:smallbiggrin: :smallconfused: :smalleek:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wait, there's a spell called Circle Magic War Ice Castle?
:smallbiggrin: :smallconfused: :smalleek:

No. It's a spell called Ice castle under the effect of the war spell or war magic metamagic feat and being cast by a caster capable of using circle magic. There are a couple sources for circle magic and ice castle is in frostburn. I'm not sure where to find the war <whatever> feat though.

[unseenmage]

No. It's a spell called Ice castle under the effect of the war spell or war magic metamagic feat and being cast by a caster capable of using circle magic. There are a couple sources for circle magic and ice castle is in frostburn. I'm not sure where to find the war <whatever> feat though.

War Spells feat source is in my sig if that helps. It is (rightly) considered overpowered though. Making them is like making Custom Magic Items, some interpretation required.

For example one interpretation is that the War spell version of Ice Castle would make 25 per CL Ice Castles. And it wouldn't exactly be a wrong interpretation either.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ah, a corroboration between dragon magazine and homebrew. Small wonder I didn't recognize it.

[Erik Vale]

Ah, a corroboration between dragon magazine and homebrew. Small wonder I didn't recognize it.

No, War Spells information can also be found in his sig, it's Dragon Material. So Dragon Material + Frostburn.

And yes, Dragon War spells can be pretty dangerous, however they can also be not-as useful given the whole minimum 1 minute casting time [Unless you use cheese to negate that, such as somehow gaining it as a spell like ability].

[Phelix-Mu]

I think there is probably a better way to build a city than wish. Seems like a really powerful effect for a pretty mundane endeavor, much of which can probably be accomplished by sufficient planar binding and/or Diplomancy and/or repeating magical traps of x or y.

Also, energy transformation field. I explored this in a recent campaign as a way to turn just random sources of magic into specific spell effects ad infinitum, and it's actually not a bad tool. Really poorly written, though; there were like a dozen places where I was desperate for better examples or more explicit language.

Anyway, lots of stuff that is probably a lot cheaper than finding a way to spam wish.

[SinsI]

Using a Djinni of the Lamp to build a Palace overnight is a standard fantasy trope. Djinni of the Ring is not enough for that.
So 1 Wish can't build you a palace, but 3 Wishes should be enough for that.

Same with a City - you need 3 Wishes to build a minimum-sized city.

[Emperor Tippy]

There are a number of ways to use Wish to build a city.

The easiest is to make the city one magic item and then just Wish that up while using one of the methods to remove XP costs from Wish.

For a non magical city you need to boost the CL to an absurd level and then replicate Fabricate while also negating material components. Otherwise you are limited to a city with a total value of 25,000 GP or less (and 25,000 GP buys you very little).

[Sarison]

But a city is a lot more than a bunch of houses (unless you are just interested in a bunch of empty houses, in which case illusion magic might help you more). Cities pop up where people congregate. They are easily accessible to traffic, and need to be, since they don't have the agrarian resources to sustain themselves. They require food to be brought to them, and something to give the people who bring that food. Maybe you just need some basics and then time. Wish for a coastline near a popular trading route and a bit of dock. Worth is the value people put on it, a parcel land might not be that much.

My skilled laborer calculation was by the book: a commoner has 4 ranks in profession (or craft, decide which you think you need, but lets not debate it) and a +1 stat bonus, takes 10 for a total of 15 on the check. Multiply that by the DC of the job (again 15 for maximum productivity) and you get the total 225 copper pieces per day, or 22 silver. Note, this is just value added in a days work, not how much you pay them. I calculated a 4 to 1 ratio of support staff to workers (supervisors, porters, cooks, laundry, etc) for large projects, but that's just me, no rules call for it. I also assumed 8 hour shifts and 5 day work week, but I'm humane like that, you can go up or down at your choice.

Thirdly, I took the prices in the DMG as gospel, but assumed some things about what they meant. A simple house, for example, came fully furnished in a decent part of a city with a decent job market, good schools, church within walking distance... You get the picture. 1000 gold wasn't for a farmer's hut in the bush. It's a supply and demand thing.

[Drachasor]

Well, I read up a little bit indicating a castle seems to require several thousands tons of stone. A wall of stone at CL 12 makes about 5.3 tons of stone (assuming a density of 2.5 tons per cubic meter, which is about average for stone). You get 14.7 tons at CL 20 and about 37.8 tons at CL 32.

So that's 159 castings at CL 32, 406 castings at CL 20, and 1130 castings at CL 12 -- assuming you get 6000 tons of stone to make a castle.

Now Transmute Mud to Rock makes a lot more generally, about 141 tons per casting level. But this is "soft stone" like sand stone, so I don't think it would be as good. Hmm, a search indicates at least one d20 source has Sandstone as having a hardness of 6, so that's not great. Incidentally Wall of Stone starts making more stone at CL 121 by my calculations (it's quadratic).

Though, I guess you could halve these castings if you wanted a structure just about as tough but made of iron. That starts costing money rather than just time though, and Walls of Iron need more work to get done.

I thought this might help put in perspective the magnitude of wishing for a city.

[Clistenes]

No they're not. Ask yourself: how many people do you know are capable of going out and buying a house, right now, with cash? Very few. Most people have to buy a house over a course of time, via a mortgage. Most mortgage terms are, incidentally, 40 years. They're very reasonable and realistic prices.

Yes, but:

1.-When I speak of people who earn 4 sp/day having to work for about ten years to pay a 1-3 room house (seven years if he doesn't have to pay for even his food), we are speaking of a very well paid professional and the s*hittiest kind of house.

I'm not rich at all, but if I didn't have to pay for food, gas, electricity, clothes..etc. and didn't have to pay taxes I could afford a one-room place in relatively short time.

2.-Those houses are mostly in villages with very low population and lots of open country in every direction, usually in worlds with very low population density. Land should be dirt cheap, literally.

3.-Those houses are built by people who get paid very little, and mostly with materials that can be found around.

4.-In real life housing never became so expensive until recently (just watch the real-life reference I posted). In our modern world housing is outpriced due to especulation, taxes, mortage business and the like. Houses shouldn't be so expensive. But in a medieval world you don't buy a house from a big company and ask for a mortage to a big bank. You buy a corner of your neighbour Bob's turnip field and hire Dikc the carpenter to raise the house.

[SinsI]

Don't forget that modern house prices are far greater than anything you've seen in middle ages due to far greater population. A brigade of 4-6 men could easily build a nice wooden house in half a year - so that's 2-3 years worth of salary for a house for your average commoner, not a "very well paid professional". That's about 1000 SP = 100 Gold/house.
With 25000 gold/Wish, you can afford to build a town of 250.

[Schizek]

Not exactly, at least by the the PF rules for Lyre of Building (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/lyre-of-building). It can be used pretty much forever for building, as long as you keep making the Perform checks. Only the negating attacks against architecture use is limited to once per day.

Also, the SBG is 3.X, so it won't necessarily be exactly the same as the PF rules, especially since Wish was changed in PF (no XP cost, for one thing).

Just use Simulacrum:

Simulacrum of 10x 10HD Bard = 10000 XP and 10000 gp
To Craft 10 x Lyre of Building 65,000 gp and 5,200 Xp
Total 75,000 gp and 15,200 XP

They perform 24h in 7 days this give you:
(48x10X100x3x7)/356= 2761 years of work by single worker
then you have 2.7 year of work by 1000 workers in a week!!
In one year 52 x 2.7= 140 years of work by 1000 workers.


For high level character cost is not so big.

[SinsI]

Wow. That means that one Bard 10 Simulacrum in 3 months can build a small Pyramid at a cost of just 7500 gp and 1520 XP.
Becoming a Pharaoh has never been cheaper!

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, I read up a little bit indicating a castle seems to require several thousands tons of stone. A wall of stone at CL 12 makes about 5.3 tons of stone (assuming a density of 2.5 tons per cubic meter, which is about average for stone). You get 14.7 tons at CL 20 and about 37.8 tons at CL 32.

So that's 159 castings at CL 32, 406 castings at CL 20, and 1130 castings at CL 12 -- assuming you get 6000 tons of stone to make a castle.

Now Transmute Mud to Rock makes a lot more generally, about 141 tons per casting level. But this is "soft stone" like sand stone, so I don't think it would be as good. Hmm, a search indicates at least one d20 source has Sandstone as having a hardness of 6, so that's not great. Incidentally Wall of Stone starts making more stone at CL 121 by my calculations (it's quadratic).

Though, I guess you could halve these castings if you wanted a structure just about as tough but made of iron. That starts costing money rather than just time though, and Walls of Iron need more work to get done.

I thought this might help put in perspective the magnitude of wishing for a city.

You can use stone metamorphosis spell to turn the sandstone into granite or whatever building-grade stone you are looking for. Will admittedly be slow, even with the greater version, but it's an available option.

[Fax Celestis]

Don't forget that modern house prices are far greater than anything you've seen in middle ages due to far greater population. A brigade of 4-6 men could easily build a nice wooden house in half a year - so that's 2-3 years worth of salary for a house for your average commoner, not a "very well paid professional". That's about 1000 SP = 100 Gold/house.
With 25000 gold/Wish, you can afford to build a town of 250.

The comprison of the D&D universe to the Middle Ages is faulty: a better approximation is to the modern age.

[SinsI]

The comprison of the D&D universe to the Middle Ages is faulty: a better approximation is to the modern age.

Actually, the existence of things like instant teleportation magic and gates makes it closer to futuristic world - you put an extremely tiny door inside city center, and connect it through a two-way teleporter to some remote location, eliminating the need to overpay for land due to location. If we remove medieval weapons and flavor, you can easily play it as a post-Apocalyptic world.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually, the existence of things like instant teleportation magic and gates makes it closer to futuristic world - you put an extremely tiny door inside city center, and connect it through a two-way teleporter to some remote location, eliminating the need to overpay for land due to location. If we remove medieval weapons and flavor, you can easily play it as a post-Apocalyptic world.

So why are you trying to compare it to medieval Europe?

[Clistenes]

The comprison of the D&D universe to the Middle Ages is faulty: a better approximation is to the modern age.


Actually, the existence of things like instant teleportation magic and gates makes it closer to futuristic world - you put an extremely tiny door inside city center, and connect it through a two-way teleporter to some remote location, eliminating the need to overpay for location.

Yes, but in the D&D world only a minority can use mid and high level spells, and that minority has no incentive to put their skills to help their community unless they are very altruistic, since they can create everything they need, earn all the money they could need with ease, and usually have wealth far above that of kingdoms.

Why would a wizard able to cast Teleportation Circle (a 9th level spell) bother to use it to help merchants? At that level he has raised himself a tower with Wall of Stone and Wall of Iron in his own Demiplane, furnished it with Fabricate, has a few magic items that produce the finest foods and wines at will, has a harem of Succubus and Nymph Simulacrums, and spend his holidays traveling to other Planes and Crystal Spheres.

[Drachasor]

So why are you trying to compare it to medieval Europe?

By RAW the wealth disparity is pretty clearly closer to medieval Europe than the modern era. So there's that.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes, but in the D&D world only a minority can use mid and high level spells, and that minority has no incentive to put their skills to help their community unless they are very altruistic, since they can create everything they need, earn all the money they could need with ease, and usually have wealth far above that of kingdoms.

...according to what exactly? Because this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a) states pretty clearly otherwise--a major metropolis has at least one 13th level or higher caster-class NPC.

[SinsI]

So why are you trying to compare it to medieval Europe?
Population and city sizes. 25,000 drow (Menzoberranzan) is quite a big city in D&D, which is much closer to the city sizes of medieval Europe.

[Clistenes]

...according to what exactly? Because this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a) states pretty clearly otherwise--a major metropolis has at least one 13th level or higher caster-class NPC.

In a big country with a big capital there is one person able to cast 7th level spells. That's a minority, if I have ever seen one.

[gadren]

...or horse carried but that barely saves you time, horses are jerks :smalltongue:). Every. Single. Piece.

As the owner of a horse, I think you are underestimating a good work horse.

They obviously aren't nearly as helpful as a modern motorized vehicle, and a badly trained and/or bred horse can be more of a liability than a help, but claiming a good work horse (or even a pony) would "barely save you time" is just silly.

[unseenmage]

As the owner of a horse, I think you are underestimating a good work horse.

They obviously aren't nearly as helpful as a modern motorized vehicle, and a badly trained and/or bred horse can be more of a liability than a help, but claiming a good work horse (or even a pony) would "barely save you time" is just silly.

But not all horses are "good work horse"(es). As a once farmkid myself I know that a good work horse is invaluable to persons dependent on it. But it's still a living thing. It eats, excretes, and gets tired and ill. Takes a lot of space and energy to care for/feed.

And I was just picking on horses in general for fun with that sentence too. Any work beast will take a whole crapton of time and effort and care to keep healthy and working. Be it horses, oxen, or humanoid slaves.

In fact, as any veterinarian will tell you, it's often harder to keep the animal workers healthy as they cannot interpret commands (that water is poisoned don't drink it) or tell you where it hurts when they're injured or ill (the old, the horses ankle is twisted, gotta put it down Western trope).

Edit: Oh, and more precisely, there are guidelines in the SBG for mindless laborers. Not RAI for animal labor possibly but the minor time/cost break from that is what I was considering when I typed that bit IIRC.

[Fax Celestis]

In a big country with a big capital there is one person able to cast 7th level spells. That's a minority, if I have ever seen one.

In a metropolis. There's way more than one of those per country.

[Lightlawbliss]

In a metropolis. There's way more than one of those per country.

1 in thousands is still a steep minority. You might, in some worlds, get as high as 1/100 for total population when you include the ones that don't live on the material plane and/or don't stay in one place long. (still a minority in more then one meaning)

[gadren]

But not all horses are "good work horse"(es). As a once farmkid myself I know that a good work horse is invaluable to persons dependent on it. But it's still a living thing. It eats, excretes, and gets tired and ill. Takes a lot of space and energy to care for/feed.

I'm not arguing against any of that, I'm just saying the cost of caring for a pony to pull your supply cart is going to be more economical (both in terms of money and time) than paying enough humans to carry the same amount the same distance.

[unseenmage]

I'm not arguing against any of that, I'm just saying the cost of caring for a pony to pull your supply cart is going to be more economical (both in terms of money and time) than paying enough humans to carry the same amount the same distance.

Except that we're also not discussing "a pony" or an equivalent number of humans.

Stronghold constructsion, and by extension Castle and City construction attempted with the SBG rules, is a long big process that takes years, even decades, even generations to complete. All depending on an abstraction of real-world inspired aspects.

If work equines are to be considered within the structure of the rules I was discussing then they would
a) be discussed with your DM (in which case have bandying various equine based knowledge with them) and
b) have some rules based aspect from the book applied to their use in regards to building the Stronghold/Castle/City.

I claim no expertise on the use of draybeasts in real world architecture and engineering or city planning.
If you have such expertise, and believe that applying it to the experience of Stronghold/Castle/City construction will enrich your gaming experience then by all means please do so.

What is imprecise and fun for one isn't necessarily precise enough to be fun for another. And that's okay.

[Osiris]

I have an idea two ideas that does not involve wish

1 Polymorph Any Object a mountain or something into your grand castle

2 Spam Walls of Stone and gradually build your castle up.

[Ruethgar]

I have an idea two ideas that does not involve wish

1 Polymorph Any Object a mountain or something into your grand castle

2 Spam Walls of Stone and gradually build your castle up.

Polymorph may work, if a mountain were to be considered one object. I would rule that the loose rocks on the mountain are each objects as with each plant and the mountain itself would probably be part of a tectonic plate. Cut the mountain off the earth then polymorph it.

Walls of Stone do very little if using stronghold builders guide for making a castle(great logic I know). If you ban or ignore the book then you should be fine for the structure but still lack things like furniture and probably any sort of basement/sewer/dungeon, plus it would look crude and you would have no doors, gates, drawbridges, stairs(will have ramps) etc.

Plus Wish is a faster way to replicate a spell like a War Wall of Stone enhanced by Circle Magic to CL 40.

[Drachasor]

Walls of Stone do very little if using stronghold builders guide for making a castle(great logic I know). If you ban or ignore the book then you should be fine for the structure but still lack things like furniture and probably any sort of basement/sewer/dungeon, plus it would look crude and you would have no doors, gates, drawbridges, stairs(will have ramps) etc.

Plus Wish is a faster way to replicate a spell like a War Wall of Stone enhanced by Circle Magic to CL 40.

I did the math above. You'd still need hundreds of castings of Wall of Stone. A Castle really requires a ridiculous amount of stone (several thousand tons) and Wall of Stone only makes a few tons per casting (more or less).

[Clistenes]

In a metropolis. There's way more than one of those per country.

It depends on your campaign. In Flanaess there are quite few metropolis, and some important countries don't even have one. Furyondy's biggest city, Chedl, is only 15,600; Veluna's biggest city, Mitrik, is only 16,200; Sterich's biggest city, Istivin, is only 7,000; Perrenland has only one metropolis, Schwartzenbruin...etc.

[Fax Celestis]

It depends on your campaign. In Flanaess there are quite few metropolis, and some important countries don't even have one. Furyondy's biggest city, Chedl, is only 15,600; Veluna's biggest city, Mitrik, is only 16,200; Sterich's biggest city, Istivin, is only 7,000; Perrenland has only one metropolis, Schwartzenbruin...etc.

And the number I quoted is for Eberron specifically, which is deliberately skewed downwards in comparison to the DMG. There's a section in chapter 5 you should read.

[Drachasor]

And the number I quoted is for Eberron specifically, which is deliberately skewed downwards in comparison to the DMG. There's a section in chapter 5 you should read.

And how does any of that show that spellcasters aren't a minority? They are in fact a very, very tiny percentage of the population.

Let's take a city of 25k. And let's assume all dice rolled are maxed for level.
Wizard and Sorcerers (each has the following)
4 - 16th level
8 - 8th level
16 - 4th level
32 - 2nd level
64 - 1st level

Adept/Bard/Druid/Cleric (each has the following)
4 - 18th level
8 - 9th level
16 - 5th level
32 - 3nd level
64 - 1st level

(They say to halve the level, so that's what you get based on their example of 5->3->1...bit odd).

So each casting class has a total of 124 NPCs. That's 744 total casters or just under 3% of the population. Actually that goes to about 3.5% of the population since 0.5% of whatever remaining NPCs there are will be 1st level Adepts.

So I think the statement that magic users are a minority is entirely accurate. In fact, in a RAW D&D universe the only characters that can create a permanent Teleportation Circle are most likely going to be specially created NPCs since random creation will not generate them.

[Fax Celestis]

And how does any of that show that spellcasters aren't a minority? They are in fact a very, very tiny percentage of the population.

Let's take a city of 25k. And let's assume all dice rolled are maxed for level.
Wizard and Sorcerers (each has the following)
4 - 16th level
8 - 8th level
16 - 4th level
32 - 2nd level
64 - 1st level

Adept/Bard/Druid/Cleric (each has the following)
4 - 18th level
8 - 9th level
16 - 5th level
32 - 3nd level
64 - 1st level

(They say to halve the level, so that's what you get based on their example of 5->3->1...bit odd).

So each casting class has a total of 124 NPCs. That's 744 total casters or just under 3% of the population. Actually that goes to about 3.5% of the population since 0.5% of whatever remaining NPCs there are will be 1st level Adepts.

So I think the statement that magic users are a minority is entirely accurate. In fact, in a RAW D&D universe the only characters that can create a permanent Teleportation Circle are most likely going to be specially created NPCs since random creation will not generate them.

Because a city won't purchase a teleportation circle scroll or five out of the city coffers to promote infrastructure and trade?

As I stated before in this thread: subsidization.

[Doug Lampert]

No they're not. Ask yourself: how many people do you know are capable of going out and buying a house, right now, with cash? Very few. Most people have to buy a house over a course of time, via a mortgage. Most mortgage terms are, incidentally, 40 years. They're very reasonable and realistic prices.

And a character with 3 int and no ranks but a regular job working as a craftsman (explicitely and clearly usable untrained) and taking 10 earns 3 GP a week.

A level 1 human commoner with 12 int (NPC array) or 12 Wis (still NPC array) who puts 4 of his 12 skill points and one of his two feats into what he actually does gets a +8 to craft, and earns 9 GP a week, if he saves a tiny fraction of that he can buy masterwork tools in a fairly short time and up it to 10 GP a week.

Less than 2 years pay at work for hire for an ordinary craftsman to buy a house by the DMG prices.


Yes, but:

1.-When I speak of people who earn 4 sp/day having to work for about ten years to pay a 1-3 room house (seven years if he doesn't have to pay for even his food), we are speaking of a very well paid professional and the s*hittiest kind of house.

Well paid professionals make over 1 GP per day. It's cleverly hidden in the PHB under the Profession skill.

The craft skill contains the same rules.

If you IGNORE the explicit and clear rules for pay rates, and substitute something at 10% or so of what it should be, then the prices are unreasonable. But that's not the game rule's problem. If you actually used the game rules you'd find that a single rank and attribute of THREE beats the HIGHEST pay you think a high paid professional makes!

[Lightlawbliss]

Because a city won't purchase a teleportation circle scroll or five out of the city coffers to promote infrastructure and trade?

As I stated before in this thread: subsidization.

what promotes it more? one circle for that could put a city in debt and is a defensive nightmare or 10 animated boats with defenses placed on the major waterways.

[Suddo]

2.-Those houses are mostly in villages with very low population and lots of open country in every direction, usually in worlds with very low population density. Land should be dirt cheap, literally.

4.-In real life housing never became so expensive until recently (just watch the real-life reference I posted). In our modern world housing is outpriced due to especulation, taxes, mortage business and the like. Houses shouldn't be so expensive. But in a medieval world you don't buy a house from a big company and ask for a mortage to a big bank. You buy a corner of your neighbour Bob's turnip field and hire Dikc the carpenter to raise the house.

These two are actually very interconnected another reason housing costs so much is because in order to be closer to somewhere (in the city) there is very little room. I bet most people could afford some 3 room shack out in the middle of New Mexico or Arizona.

Then again the annoying thing about D&D is the economics doesn't exist. If you are a million miles away, in a non-tippyverse, from the nearest coffee source and really want it you still only pay Xg per Y pounds.

[SinsI]

(They say to halve the level, so that's what you get based on their example of 5->3->1...bit odd).


You're wrong. If you have 1 lvl 17 wizard, you have 2 lvl15, 4 lvl13, 8 lvl 11, 16 lvl 9, 32 lvl 7, 64 lvl 5, 128 lvl 3, 256 lvl 2 and 512 lvl 1 wizards.

Hell, if you just look at commoner stat distribution (3d6), you'd notice that one out of 72 commoners has a 18 in a caster stat. If everyone with 16-18 in a caster stat does what his stats dictate, you are going to get about 13.3% casters (a bit less since some are going to get more than one such high stat).

[PraxisVetli]

Polymorph may work, if a mountain were to be considered one object. I would rule that the loose rocks on the mountain are each objects as with each plant and the mountain itself would probably be part of a tectonic plate. Cut the mountain off the earth then polymorph it.

There's a spell for that.
Proctiv's Move Mountain would give you a Floating castle.

[Fax Celestis]

what promotes it more? one circle for that could put a city in debt and is a defensive nightmare or 10 animated boats with defenses placed on the major waterways.

Because no one has the bright idea of having an item of continuous antimagic field appropriately near to the teleportation circle in case of emergencies?

Or perhaps a remotely-triggerable greater dispel magic or disjunction?

Not only would they stop access, they would also have the benefit of debuffing intruders.

I'm not going to get into arguing Tippyverse theory with you: there's plenty of that already on these forums. However, the long and short of it is that (a) you don't have to be able to cast the spell to be able to use a scroll: a 1st level wizard with a 19 INT can use a scroll of teleportation circle by taking 20 on his Spellcraft check to decipher the scroll (which he can do since there's no downside for failing a decipher); (b) you don't have to be able to cast the spell to craft a scroll of that spell (cf: artificers); (c) even if you don't have artificers, you can purchase a scroll of teleportation circle for 4825 gp: it's right there in the DMG, which is well within the magic item budget for any city interested in financing a teleportation circle infrastructure: small cities (5000+ people) have a GP limit for item availability of 15,000gp, three times the cost of a scroll of teleportation circle, which means even if someone is basically extorting money from the local government by holding their economy ransom, the city can afford it.

[Drachasor]

You're wrong. If you have 1 lvl 17 wizard, you have 2 lvl15, 4 lvl13, 8 lvl 11, 16 lvl 9, 32 lvl 7, 64 lvl 5, 128 lvl 3, 256 lvl 2 and 512 lvl 1 wizards.

Hell, if you just look at commoner stat distribution (3d6), you'd notice that one out of 72 commoners has a 18 in a caster stat. If everyone with 16-18 in a caster stat does what his stats dictate, you are going to get about 13.3% casters (a bit less since some are going to get more than one such high stat).

That's not what the text says. It says you HALVE the level. "if the highest level character indicated is 2nd level or higher, assume the community has twice that number of characters of half that level." Rinse and repeat if that's still 2nd or higher. It's page 138 and the errata doesn't change it.

The Eberron game has some different rules that add more NPCs of a given class in some cases.

Commoners don't pick the best class for their stats for a lot of reasons. If they did then there'd definitely be no Commoners, now would there?

[SinsI]

The actual text, says the same thing it has been saying in all other books:


The community will have twice as many characters of that class who are two levels below this level (11, 9, 7...), and twice as many 1st-level characters as 2nd-level characters.

Meaning each level down from 20 to 2 you get an increase by sqrt(2) in the number of characters, and from level 2 to level 1 you get twice number of higher level.

that rule (one character of level x is equivalent to two characters of level x-2) has been in the DMG since forever, and is basis for all level distribution in D&D.

[Lightlawbliss]

Because no one has the bright idea of having an item of continuous antimagic field appropriately near to the teleportation circle in case of emergencies?

Or perhaps a remotely-triggerable greater dispel magic or disjunction?

Not only would they stop access, they would also have the benefit of debuffing intruders.

I'm not going to get into arguing Tippyverse theory with you: there's plenty of that already on these forums. However, the long and short of it is that (a) you don't have to be able to cast the spell to be able to use a scroll: a 1st level wizard with a 19 INT can use a scroll of teleportation circle by taking 20 on his Spellcraft check to decipher the scroll (which he can do since there's no downside for failing a decipher); (b) you don't have to be able to cast the spell to craft a scroll of that spell (cf: artificers); (c) even if you don't have artificers, you can purchase a scroll of teleportation circle for 4825 gp: it's right there in the DMG, which is well within the magic item budget for any city interested in financing a teleportation circle infrastructure: small cities (5000+ people) have a GP limit for item availability of 15,000gp, three times the cost of a scroll of teleportation circle, which means even if someone is basically extorting money from the local government by holding their economy ransom, the city can afford it.

That scroll makes one 10ft diameter circle, going one way, that lasts 170 minutes (just under 3 hours). Making one direction permanent costs an additional 24625 gp (2125 for 5th lvl scroll at 17th caster level + 22500 for 4500 xp at 5gp per xp). And you have to double that for letting people get back.

edit: I also don't want to argue tippyverse theory. I just want to make sure people don't think this is as cheap as you seem to think.

[Fax Celestis]

That scroll makes one 10ft diameter circle, going one way, that lasts 170 minutes (just under 3 hours). Making one direction permanent costs an additional 24625 gp (2125 for 5th lvl scroll at 17th caster level + 22500 for 4500 xp at 5gp per xp). And you have to double that for letting people get back.

edit: I also don't want to argue tippyverse theory. I just want to make sure people don't think this is as cheap as you seem to think.

Point granted, but that amount is still within budget for a large city (7500+ people).

[Drachasor]

The actual text, says the same thing it has been saying in all other books:


Meaning each level down from 20 to 2 you get an increase by sqrt(2) in the number of characters, and from level 2 to level 1 you get twice number of higher level.

that rule (one character of level x is equivalent to two characters of level x-2) has been in the DMG since forever, and is basis for all level distribution in D&D.

I'm reading page 138 and 139. Care to give the page number for your reference? Because the text I have above that was in quotation marks was an exact quote.

[Lightlawbliss]

Point granted, but that amount is still within budget for a large city (7500+ people).

Point granted. I would still say that it isn't the best cost/benefit for most cities that could afford it, especially when you start dealing with how expensive defending the thing is and how hard it is to keep people from bypassing your other defenses with it.

[Drachasor]

Point granted, but that amount is still within budget for a large city (7500+ people).

It costs twice as much to make two-way transit. It costs even more than that, most likely, to secure both ends -- because without security any enemy caster can cast Greater Dispel and undo all that work (depending on the caster level, a caster with just Dispel Magic could do it given time and there are plenty of ways to hide magic). It's an absolutely major undertaking, and diverts a lot of resources away from protective magics against things like Shadows, teleportation attacks, and so forth.

[Fax Celestis]

It costs twice as much to make two-way transit.Correct, but each city can fund their half.


It costs even more than that, most likely, to secure both ends -- because without security any enemy caster can cast Greater Dispel and undo all that work (depending on the caster level, a caster with just Dispel Magic could do it given time and there are plenty of ways to hide magic). Nope.


Teleportation circle can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent teleportation circle that is disabled becomes inactive for 10 minutes, then can be triggered again as normal.
The only thing that can take out a permanent teleportation circle is a disjunction or wish, and if you're worried about that happening, you can set up a defensive mechanism (like a ring of counterspells) that will counter the spell in question.

[SinsI]

I'm reading page 138 and 139. Care to give the page number for your reference? Because the text I have above that was in quotation marks was an exact quote.
The quote is from the article Fax Celesis had above:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a

[Lightlawbliss]

The quote is from the article Fax Celesis had above:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a

the part at the end of that that you seem to be referencing only applies to "communities that are centers of commerce and craft" in the Eberron setting.

[JaronK]

For what it's worth, I played a character who used his powers during downtime for urban redevelopment. Here's some of the spells and resources he used... all lower level than Wish.

1) Unseen Crafter. Second level spell, creates a craftsman for caster level days that has your casting stat as a bonus to craft. Extended at CL 10 that's 20 days of labor per casting, and he doesn't work only 8 hours like a normal human. So that's more like 60 days of work in 20 days per casting. Note that such craftsmen can only work on one project and then disappear, so you need to manage resources well.

2) Wall of Stone + Stone Metamorphosis. Creates any form of stone you want, and lots of it. I prefer Elukian Clay, as it's strong as steel and never degrades from water damage. There's also a type of rock in Underdark Handbook that glows continually as bright as daylight, which makes for very effective street lights and lanterns.

3) Lyre of Building. Discussed earlier in the thread, but I like to combine it with a Dread Warrior (created via Animate Dread Warrior) who just continually works on your city all day long. Note there are a few undead critters with Perform (like the Spectral Lyracist) who can do this as well if you rebuke them, or you can use Awaken Undead on a zombie or skeleton Bard.

4) Guidance of the Avatar. Used with Knowledge Architecture and Engineering for city planning purposes.

Between these spells, you can easily create an amazing city.

JaronK

[SinsI]

the part at the end of that that you seem to be referencing only applies to "communities that are centers of commerce and craft" in the Eberron setting.
It also says that for them "normal rules apply". So those are the normal rules.

[Drachasor]

Nope.

....

The only thing that can take out a permanent teleportation circle is a disjunction or wish, and if you're worried about that happening, you can set up a defensive mechanism (like a ring of counterspells) that will counter the spell in question.

"Disabled" is not "dispelled." Dispel Magic removes the Permanancy, making TC non-permanent. "Disabled" would only refer to things that would somehow stop the TC from working -- though what precisely that means is unclear. You see similar text with a lot of other spells that can be made permanent, but they aren't referring to getting dispelled.

And you can't put a Ring of Counterspells on an enchantment.


It also says that for them "normal rules apply". So those are the normal rules.

Read the DMG, the normal rules halve the level each step. Clearly they got confused in that article. Or are you really claiming a Web Article is a more primary source than the DMG?


2) Wall of Stone + Stone Metamorphosis. Creates any form of stone you want, and lots of it. I prefer Elukian Clay, as it's strong as steel and never degrades from water damage. There's also a type of rock in Underdark Handbook that glows continually as bright as daylight, which makes for very effective street lights and lanterns.

Just be aware that making a whole city would be at least as involved as making a Castle. So we're talking about casting Wall of Stone hundreds of times.

Speaking of which Stone Metamorphosis only works on 10 cubic ft + 1 cubic foot per CL. So that's going to require even more castings to change all the stone -- easily in the thousands. It's probably only really practical if you can make a Simulacrum of a 14th+ Druid or Cleric or multiple ones. Then they can devote their time to just converting the stone. A similar story is true with the Wall of Stone, though if you are Metamorphizing the stone then what you start with doesn't matter, so Mud To Rock to get sandstone works just as well and is quicker for the material for the basic structures.

[Lightlawbliss]

It also says that for them "normal rules apply". So those are the normal rules.

I don't see the phrase "normal rules apply" on that page at all. Would you please help me find it.

[SinsI]

Read the DMG, the normal rules halve the level each step. Clearly they got confused in that article. Or are you really claiming a Web Article is a more primary source than the DMG?
The latter source always overrides previous sources.

[JaronK]

The latter source always overrides previous sources.

That's not actually a rule. In fact it's backwards... the primary source trumps, which is usually the first book in introduce the rule.

There's also Specific Overrides General, of course.


ust be aware that making a whole city would be at least as involved as making a Castle. So we're talking about casting Wall of Stone hundreds of times.

Speaking of which Stone Metamorphosis only works on 10 cubic ft + 1 cubic foot per CL. So that's going to require even more castings to change all the stone -- easily in the thousands. It's probably only really practical if you can make a Simulacrum of a 14th+ Druid or Cleric or multiple ones. Then they can devote their time to just converting the stone. A similar story is true with the Wall of Stone, though if you are Metamorphizing the stone then what you start with doesn't matter, so Mud To Rock to get sandstone works just as well and is quicker for the material for the basic structures.

To be clear, the Elukian Clay is for major defensive structures and the nicest houses. Regular stone can be used for normal houses. Wood from a nearby forest or even packed earth can handle the peasant houses. The Lyre of Building is used to turn nearby trees into materials.

JaronK

[Lightlawbliss]

The latter source always overrides previous sources.

First off, wizards archives are not a source unless the DM of a campaign says they are.

second: I think you are making at least part of your argument up out of thin air.

[Drachasor]

The latter source always overrides previous sources.

No. The primary source overrides all other sources.

"When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules
sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
primary source is correct."

Edit: Swordsaged

I'm not saying it wouldn't make more sense in a way if it was a -2 per step rather than halving. I'm just saying that's not what the rules say.

[SinsI]

Actually, it says that Eberron generation differs from DMG. So those rules are Eberron-only.

[Clistenes]

Point granted, but that amount is still within budget for a large city (7500+ people).

You still depend on finding a 17th level wizard (which isn't guaranteed to exist even in a metropolis), who knows Teleportation Circle (no way he or she's going to spend nine weeks of research just to cast the spell for you once or twice) and who is willing to spend four days and 153 XP days scribing a scroll for 3825 gp, when he could make hundreds of thousands or even millons of gp casting Wall of Iron + Magecraft + Fabricate a few times, or buying wool or cotton and casting Magecraft + Fabricate.

Also, if that wizard knows Teleportation Circle he probably uses it to transport the wares he creates with those spells across the world, and won't help cities create their own Teleportation Circles so they can compete with him.

As I said earlier, you depend on finding a 17th or higher level (who aren't guaranteed to even exist) who has learnt or researched Teleportation Circle for his own purposes, who isn't involved in a planar war or something similar that keeps him too busy or untraceable, and is very altruistic and generous.


And a character with 3 int and no ranks but a regular job working as a craftsman (explicitely and clearly usable untrained) and taking 10 earns 3 GP a week.

A level 1 human commoner with 12 int (NPC array) or 12 Wis (still NPC array) who puts 4 of his 12 skill points and one of his two feats into what he actually does gets a +8 to craft, and earns 9 GP a week, if he saves a tiny fraction of that he can buy masterwork tools in a fairly short time and up it to 10 GP a week.

Less than 2 years pay at work for hire for an ordinary craftsman to buy a house by the DMG prices.



Well paid professionals make over 1 GP per day. It's cleverly hidden in the PHB under the Profession skill.

The craft skill contains the same rules.

If you IGNORE the explicit and clear rules for pay rates, and substitute something at 10% or so of what it should be, then the prices are unreasonable. But that's not the game rule's problem. If you actually used the game rules you'd find that a single rank and attribute of THREE beats the HIGHEST pay you think a high paid professional makes!

I was using the wage rates from page 105 of the DMG and page 62 of the Arms & Equipment Guide.

It becomes kind of confusing that they use an entirely different system to calculate how much get paid a NPC and a PC.

I think the difference is that the wages in the NPC tables are explicitly for long-term employment (what they usually earn/get paid) while short-term jobs (like those a PC would take during a campaign) explicitly are up to three times those.

[Drachasor]

You still depend on finding a 17th level wizard (which isn't guaranteed to exist even in a metropolis), who knows Teleportation Circle (no way he or she's going to spend nine weeks of research just to cast the spell for you once or twice) and who is willing to spend four days and 153 XP days scribing a scroll for 3825 gp, when he could make hundreds of thousands or even millons of gp casting Wall of Iron + Magecraft + Fabricate a few times, or buying wool or cotton and casting Magecraft + Fabricate.

It's an oddity of the rules, but in city with 5000 or more people any item 15k or less is "most likely available" including scrolls of 9th level spells. Even if, by the rules, the only NPCs capable of making these arcane scrolls are ones the DM creates (since no city is randomly generated with such casters). So the city could buy such scrolls and have a lower level caster use them who then uses permanency.

Though, it is pretty clearly up to the DM to determine if that makes sense.

[Clistenes]

It's an oddity of the rules, but in city with 5000 or more people any item 15k or less is "most likely available" including scrolls of 9th level spells. Even if, by the rules, the only NPCs capable of making these arcane scrolls are ones the DM creates (since no city is randomly generated with such casters). So the city could buy such scrolls and have a lower level caster use them who then uses permanency.

Though, it is pretty clearly up to the DM to determine if that makes sense.

Yeah, that's why I hate Magic Marts that have tons of magic items coming from nowhere.

My favourite explanation are planar travellers (Janni, Mercanes, Witchwyrds) who buy those magic items from Genies (who can't use their Wish ability on their own, only for others) and sell those items in the Prime in exchange for luxury wares (gems, gold, platinum, silks, spices, works of art...etc.).

Still, that doesn't explain why there are people keeping stocks of incredible expensive magic items that almost nobody can buy, so I think there are magic brokers who take orders from customers, contact the Janni/Mercanes/Witchwyrds/whatever, who write it down and buy them from the Efreets or Noble Djinns next time they visit them.

That theory still has a problem, though: The magic broker and the planar merchants are businessmen themselves, and are more likely to retain control of the Teleportation Circles for their own, exclusive benefit rather than sell them to the cities.

[TuggyNE]

It's an oddity of the rules, but in city with 5000 or more people any item 15k or less is "most likely available" including scrolls of 9th level spells. Even if, by the rules, the only NPCs capable of making these arcane scrolls are ones the DM creates (since no city is randomly generated with such casters). So the city could buy such scrolls and have a lower level caster use them who then uses permanency.

The lower-level caster would need CL 17, however, since permanency has CL requirements that differ by spell. Still practical, if a bit difficult; a Wizard 15/Archmage 1, for example, can use Spell Power to get that, or a Wizard 16 can get an orange prism ioun stone, or whatever. Outside of Core there's various other ways to do that too.

[Ruethgar]

I did the math above. You'd still need hundreds of castings of Wall of Stone. A Castle really requires a ridiculous amount of stone (several thousand tons) and Wall of Stone only makes a few tons per casting (more or less).

This is why I suggested using Wish to replicate a 4th level spell enhanced by circle and meta magic. Circle Magic(CL40) Twin War Wall of Stone gets you 2000 walls each twice as long as the normal maximum.

[Clistenes]

This is why I suggested using Wish to replicate a 4th level spell enhanced by circle and meta magic. Circle Magic(CL40) Twin War Wall of Stone gets you 2000 walls each twice as long as the normal maximum.

Which are the mechanics of duplicating War Spells and Circle Magic with a Wish spell?

Twin Spell uses a slot four level higher than normal. You can use Wish to duplicate an 8th-level wizard or sorcerer spell from a non-prohibited school, but I'm not sure a War Spell would be allowed if you don't have the War Magic Study feat.

I guess that, if the War Spell were allowed, you could add Circle Magic to push the Caster Level up to 40, but that requires a feat too.

[Ruethgar]

Spell Slot =! Spell Level, a Twin, Repeat, Maximize, Empower, Chain Magic Missile is still a level 1 spell, just in an epic spell slot. Heighten, Sanctum and War are the only ones I know to alter the level(makes Deep Imaskari a little better). Limited Wish can "duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower." A Circle Magic Enhanced Twin War Wall of Stone is a 4th level spell. It doesn't say anything about you normally having any sort of ability to cast the spell you Wish or Limited Wish for, it just duplicates it. You are not modifying the Wish you are casting, only the spell wished for.

[Qwertystop]

Spell Slot =! Spell Level, a Twin, Repeat, Maximize, Empower, Chain Magic Missile is still a level 1 spell, just in an epic spell slot. Heighten, Sanctum and War are the only ones I know to alter the level(makes Deep Imaskari a little better). Limited Wish can "duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower." A Circle Magic Enhanced Twin War Wall of Stone is a 4th level spell. It doesn't say anything about you normally having any sort of ability to cast the spell you Wish or Limited Wish for, it just duplicates it. You are not modifying the Wish you are casting, only the spell wished for.

While the bit about spell levels not changing is generally true, Wall of Stone is a 5th level spell (6th for Druids), and according to the description in unseen's sig, it's effectively a template applied to a new spell that you have to take a feat to learn, and the new spell is one level higher, so a War Wall of Stone would be a 6th level spell (7th for Druids). Limited Wish can't copy it.

[Ruethgar]

That is why you are replicating the Trap Smith Wall of Stone, a 3rd level spell.

[Clistenes]

Spell Slot =! Spell Level, a Twin, Repeat, Maximize, Empower, Chain Magic Missile is still a level 1 spell, just in an epic spell slot. Heighten, Sanctum and War are the only ones I know to alter the level(makes Deep Imaskari a little better). Limited Wish can "duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower." A Circle Magic Enhanced Twin War Wall of Stone is a 4th level spell. It doesn't say anything about you normally having any sort of ability to cast the spell you Wish or Limited Wish for, it just duplicates it. You are not modifying the Wish you are casting, only the spell wished for.

That sounds cheesy. Would your DM really allow their players to add all metamagic effects and Circle Magic to spell you duplicate with a Wish? Even if the modified spell would require like a 15th spell slot?

[Drachasor]

That sounds cheesy. Would your DM really allow their players to add all metamagic effects and Circle Magic to spell you duplicate with a Wish? Even if the modified spell would require like a 15th spell slot?

Yeah, I don't really see any DM allowing that either.

[Ruethgar]

Meta and Circle are a little iffy, but War Wall is an entirely different spell(requiring research or spell known slot) and even at CL 20 would do wonders for building at 500 walls.

My current DM loves for us to find overpowered technicalities... and then use them against us.