creating deities

[questionmark693]

So I'm recreating the D&D pantheon, mostly for fun. But I'm curious, as I do so, should the 20 outsider HD come from a creature already statted out in a MM or something, or should I create my own? For the racial gods, I'll likely be using the race that they are a god of, but otherwise, I'm sort of at a loss. For Boccob, I used Illurien, from MMV. But what are your opinions on the matter?

[Arcane_Secrets]

So I'm recreating the D&D pantheon, mostly for fun. But I'm curious, as I do so, should the 20 outsider HD come from a creature already statted out in a MM or something, or should I create my own? For the racial gods, I'll likely be using the race that they are a god of, but otherwise, I'm sort of at a loss. For Boccob, I used Illurien, from MMV. But what are your opinions on the matter?

I've seen several ways you could do this:

1) Unless I'm working with an outsider-that-became-a god (which does happen as I see it) I usually don't use outsider HD in a build. However, when working with a god or goddess of (X people), I typically use the base creature, recalculate the ability adjustment for the base from the average stats, and then add this in to the final ability scores while compensating so you don't get numbers that are outrageously higher than the norm unless you can justify it (ie, a pantheon head, a god well known for strength having very high strength, a Colossal god having much larger str/con than the normal, so on).

Otherwise, I use all class level builds for standard, human, gods unless there's a reason in the flavor that would justify differing from this. I also do a bit of gestalting already in this in order to make sure that caster deities have a chance of penetrating the SR/PR of equivalent foes.

2) Another option you could go is an all outsider HD build, and then gestalt in whatever class levels you want. This is harder to calculate the CR for, but it also has some advantages in terms of simplicity. If you're also dealing with a race that is known for high-HD and doesn't really conform to normal character advancement (dragons in particular) this works well in my estimation.

Did this help at all?

[questionmark693]

Sort of. I'm using the deific array from Dragon that the designers of deities and demigods used for those gods. And I like having the outside HD personally, because it makes them less relatable to the PC's, something i appreciate personally.

EDIT: Not that I don't like your approach, or see value in it, but it's not the one I'm taking this time around.

[Clistenes]

How do you people deal with the fact that Alter Reality allows a deity to cast Simulacrum without any xP or gp cost or material components? I mean, as a standard action.

Lolth, for example, could create 6 Simulacra of herself per minute, 360 per hour, 8,640 s a day, 3,153,600 per year. Even if she only spent 4 hours per day doing that, she would still end with more than half a millions of beings, each of them able to kill almost any non-deity with ease, even if they didn't get any divine power, just class levels.

To make things worse, Lolth does send her armies to invade Prime Material worlds...how come her Simulacrum army aren't swarming all the Crystal Spheres? How can her enemies Zuggmoty and Graz'zt withstand her might? How can a player enter the Demonweb Pit and survive more than half a second?

[Pilo]

The Greater God of Dispelling and Disjuction prevent any god to have a simulacrum.

[Brookshw]

How do you people deal with the fact that Alter Reality allows a deity to cast Simulacrum without any xP or gp cost or material components? I mean, as a standard action.?

Mostly by noting that the gods have a pact against entering the prime and that one trying these shenanighans would quickly get dog piled by the rest. Besides, Nerull would just need to blink to kill them all (other gods likewise could wipe the army without too much effort.

[Clistenes]

Mostly by noting that the gods have a pact against entering the prime and that one trying these shenanighans would quickly get dog piled by the rest. Besides, Nerull would just need to blink to kill them all (other gods likewise could wipe the army without too much effort.

I'm not so sure other gods could wipe so easily an army made of many millions of 30 HD Simulacra; not even gods can be everywhere at the same time, not even with the help of their Avatars. I guess they could directly threaten Lolth's life to avoid that kind of stuff.

But Lotlh does send drows and demons to conquer worlds for her. Do you think that there is a rule preventing deities from sending to the Prime armies of beings created with their own magic? Or the rule would be about souless creatures? Or beings without a will of their own?

[sideswipe]

easiest way to do it, gods beyond the power of the d&d gods appear. they slay all the gods as there deity powers do not work on them. all the old d&d gods are now dead. they convert or kill all clerics.

the new gods are so powerful that they are not stated. and cannot be killed even by epic level adventurers.

the new gods have specified roles in the existence of the world. each taking on an aspect.

then unless its a story where you design one of your gods to be killed they are as powerful as you need them to be.

[Pan151]

I'm not so sure other gods could wipe so easily an army made of many millions of 30 HD Simulacra; not even gods can be everywhere at the same time, not even with the help of their Avatars. I guess they could directly threaten Lolth's life to avoid that kind of stuff.

But Lotlh does send drows and demons to conquer worlds for her. Do you think that there is a rule preventing deities from sending to the Prime armies of beings created with their own magic? Or the rule would be about souless creatures? Or beings without a will of their own?

I know that, in Forgotten Realms at least, deities are explicitely forbidden by Ao to directly intervene into the mortal world (can't remember if that was established before or after 4e though). That would mostly work for this case - just have an Overgod policing the rest of the gods and you should be fine.

Alternatively, you could go for a more "realistic" approach to the issue. That is, there are physical limits to how much magic you can use before magic starts getting drained/misbehaving/warping reality itself, and/or there's a limit as to how many spells you can mentaly keep track of, even as a god. Even in a fantasy setting, there's a limit to how much the laws of physics can bend before the whole thing starts spiraling from fantasy all the way over to fever dream territory.

In short, mostly the same arguements you'd have to make as to why Tippyverse is not a thing in DnD settings.

[Urpriest]

The 20 Outsider HD are for being a deity, not for being some other outsider. They're supposed to be similar to the base stats for Titans, but in general you should just give them the HD with whichever class skills you think make sense.

[Clistenes]

I know that, in Forgotten Realms at least, deities are explicitely forbidden by Ao to directly intervene into the mortal world (can't remember if that was established before or after 4e though). That would mostly work for this case - just have an Overgod policing the rest of the gods and you should be fine.

Alternatively, you could go for a more "realistic" approach to the issue. That is, there are physical limits to how much magic you can use before magic starts getting drained/misbehaving/warping reality itself, and/or there's a limit as to how many spells you can mentaly keep track of, even as a god. Even in a fantasy setting, there's a limit to how much the laws of physics can bend before the whole thing starts spiraling from fantasy all the way over to fever dream territory.

In short, mostly the same arguements you'd have to make as to why Tippyverse is not a thing in DnD settings.

Does the rules of Alter Reality about the deity being unable to create permanent beings or magic items using this salient divine ability apply to Simulacra? That could be the reason we don't see massive armies of divine Simulacra.

[Brookshw]

Sorry for the delayed response, work and such. I see this as having problems via both crunch and fluff, I'll respond to each as able though I'm AFB at the moment so crunch is coming mainly from SRD, and frankly when it comes to the fluff you're probably better off asking Afro.


I'm not so sure other gods could wipe so easily an army made of many millions of 30 HD Simulacra; not even gods can be everywhere at the same time, not even with the help of their Avatars. I guess they could directly threaten Lolth's life to avoid that kind of stuff.

So there's an interesting thing on the SRD regarding Alter Reality, and that is that it references longer rest times between uses but doesn't list what it is. I'm not sure if this is bad editing in the SRD or D&DG, if you have a copy of the book handy could you check the original wording on the rest? The reason I mention this is that the life and death or death SDA do not require rest for a god with death in their portfolio, which there are both good and evil gods with, so in an arms race they have a bit of an edge.

But it's kinda silly to begin with because if Lolth is brewing up an army of simulacrums, so too can other gods. Portfolio sense would also give gods advance warning before she could begin her plans.

And yeah, they could kill her, assault her realm in the Abyss, and so on.

Also time loops, pop into one and squelch the life out of all of them, not impossible.

Gods are also finicky prideful arrogant sobs, why would they stand by when this army descends on their faithful?




But Lotlh does send drows and demons to conquer worlds for her. Do you think that there is a rule preventing deities from sending to the Prime armies of beings created with their own magic? Or the rule would be about souless creatures? Or beings without a will of their own?

Armies and followers sure, infact Graz'zt is quite proud of one of his son's, or possibly grandsons (I forget which) pending domination of one of the prime worlds, but you're going a bit beyond the normal step for this sort of direct intervention from Lolth. Think of the gods as more in an eternal cold war.


Does the rules of Alter Reality about the deity being unable to create permanent beings or magic items using this salient divine ability apply to Simulacra? That could be the reason we don't see massive armies of divine Simulacra.

I think you're overestimating the power of the Simulacra somewhat. Per the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) they get half hit die, hp, skills, feats, and special abilities. Special abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) is a defined term encompassing extraordinary, supernatural, and spell like abilities. Divine rank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm) is none of the above (presumably why god's use proxies/avatars). So we're left with a bunch of 30 hit die outsiders, powerful to be sure, but not "divine" as I think you mean? :smallconfused:

But even assume that Lolth does focus all her power on one area, the rest of the gods sit back and,....nod approvingly? Nah, evil gods will use the invasion as an opportunity to conduct their own power grab and good probably to reclaim what it can from her. It's a big old god war our there, invest too strongly in one place and you're vulnerable in another. Evil gods especially that try to take over a prime directly tend to get ganged up on (Tiamat comes to mind).

Edit: realized I didn't actually address the Alter Reality question. No, I don't think it would be the limiting factor, it can duplicate the Simulacrum spell, the other creation bits are different categories.

I can gladly dig further into this if you like but probably not today. Happy to discuss :smallbiggrin:

[Clistenes]

So there's an interesting thing on the SRD regarding Alter Reality, and that is that it references longer rest times between uses but doesn't list what it is. I'm not sure if this is bad editing in the SRD or D&DG, if you have a copy of the book handy could you check the original wording on the rest? The reason I mention this is that the life and death or death SDA do not require rest for a god with death in their portfolio, which there are both good and evil gods with, so in an arms race they have a bit of an edge.


Alter Reality
The deity can change reality to suit itself.
Prerequisite: Cha 29.

Benefit: This ability is similar to the wish spell. The deity merely
thinks of something and then makes it so. Doing this requires at
least a standard action.

Notes: The deity can duplicate any spell of 9th level or lower as
a standard action. The duplicated spell has no material or XP
component, and the DC of its saving throw (if one is allowed) is
20 + the deity’s rank + the deity’s Charisma modifier.

The deity also can duplicate a spell with any metamagic feat (so
long as the metamagic feat is available to characters of 20th level or
lower). This use of the ability requires the deity to rest for 1 round
for each level that the feat would normally add to the spell. It still
takes a standard action to use this ability, so there is no point in
using the ability to duplicate a quickened spell.

The deity can render a magical or supernatural effect permanent.
The rest requirement varies with the effect: 10 minutes per
level of the effect times the number of subjects affected, 10 minutes
per total Hit Dice of creatures affected, or 10 minutes per 10-
foot cube affected. Use the highest applicable value.

The deity can create temporary, nonmagical objects. This works
like the Create Object ability (including the required rest period),
except that the items last one day per rank. The deity also can create
permanent nonmagical objects as if using the Create Object ability
except that all rest requirements are doubled and there is no reduction
in rest time for being on an Outer Plane or in the deity’s own realm.

The deity can create temporary magic items or creatures. This
works like the Divine Creation ability (including the required rest
period), except that the items or creatures created last 1 hour per
rank. This ability cannot create permanent magic items or creatures.
The deity can reshape a landscape, creating any type of terrain
the deity can imagine. Each 10-foot cube of material to be reshaped
requires 1 round of effort, and the deity must rest for one day per
10-foot cube shaped after the work is completed.

Suggested Portfolio Elements: Any.


You have to rest if you add metamagic, make an effect permanent or create something, but you don't have to rest if you just duplicate a spell without adding metamagic or Permanency.


I think you're overestimating the power of the Simulacra somewhat. Per the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) they get half hit die, hp, skills, feats, and special abilities. Special abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) is a defined term encompassing extraordinary, supernatural, and spell like abilities. Divine rank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm) is none of the above (presumably why god's use proxies/avatars). So we're left with a bunch of 30 hit die outsiders, powerful to be sure, but not "divine" as I think you mean? :smallconfused:

I didn't say that they would have divine ranks or the associated powers and abilities, but they would be millions, and individually more powerful than almost anything in the Monster Manuals. I mentioned Lolth because, why bother creating armies of demons, drows and spider-monsters when you can have an utterly loyal overwhelming army like that?.


But even assume that Lolth does focus all her power on one area, the rest of the gods sit back and,....nod approvingly? Nah, evil gods will use the invasion as an opportunity to conduct their own power grab and good probably to reclaim what it can from her. It's a big old god war our there, invest too strongly in one place and you're vulnerable in another. Evil gods especially that try to take over a prime directly tend to get ganged up on (Tiamat comes to mind).

Even if divine retribution prevents her from actually attacking that way, she (and the other gods with Alter Reality) should have their Divine Realms (and in Lolth's case, Abyssal Layer) full of Simulacra created that way. Gods sometimes (very rarely, but it happens) have their divine realms attacked by other gods or archfiends (Lolth herself and Orcus come to mind) so it would be only natural to have the biggest and most powerful army you can create around.

But, in the adventures were you visit the Demonweb Pits, you only find regular drow, demons and spider monster in there. I find that weird.

Note: Iuz, another obvious candidate for that kind of shenanigan, doesn't have Alter Reality, so that explains why he doesn't use it to try take over Flanaess.

[Brookshw]

ROFL, teach me to trust my memory on something I read a few hours ago. Derp:smalltongue:

[Clistenes]

Edited my last post:



So there's an interesting thing on the SRD regarding Alter Reality, and that is that it references longer rest times between uses but doesn't list what it is. I'm not sure if this is bad editing in the SRD or D&DG, if you have a copy of the book handy could you check the original wording on the rest? The reason I mention this is that the life and death or death SDA do not require rest for a god with death in their portfolio, which there are both good and evil gods with, so in an arms race they have a bit of an edge.


Alter Reality
The deity can change reality to suit itself.
Prerequisite: Cha 29.

Benefit: This ability is similar to the wish spell. The deity merely
thinks of something and then makes it so. Doing this requires at
least a standard action.

Notes: The deity can duplicate any spell of 9th level or lower as
a standard action. The duplicated spell has no material or XP
component, and the DC of its saving throw (if one is allowed) is
20 + the deity’s rank + the deity’s Charisma modifier.

The deity also can duplicate a spell with any metamagic feat (so
long as the metamagic feat is available to characters of 20th level or
lower). This use of the ability requires the deity to rest for 1 round
for each level that the feat would normally add to the spell. It still
takes a standard action to use this ability, so there is no point in
using the ability to duplicate a quickened spell.

The deity can render a magical or supernatural effect permanent.
The rest requirement varies with the effect: 10 minutes per
level of the effect times the number of subjects affected, 10 minutes
per total Hit Dice of creatures affected, or 10 minutes per 10-
foot cube affected. Use the highest applicable value.

The deity can create temporary, nonmagical objects. This works
like the Create Object ability (including the required rest period),
except that the items last one day per rank. The deity also can create
permanent nonmagical objects as if using the Create Object ability
except that all rest requirements are doubled and there is no reduction
in rest time for being on an Outer Plane or in the deity’s own realm.

The deity can create temporary magic items or creatures. This
works like the Divine Creation ability (including the required rest
period), except that the items or creatures created last 1 hour per
rank. This ability cannot create permanent magic items or creatures.
The deity can reshape a landscape, creating any type of terrain
the deity can imagine. Each 10-foot cube of material to be reshaped
requires 1 round of effort, and the deity must rest for one day per
10-foot cube shaped after the work is completed.

Suggested Portfolio Elements: Any.


You have to rest if you add metamagic, make an effect permanent or create something, but you don't have to rest if you just duplicate a spell without adding metamagic or Permanency.


I think you're overestimating the power of the Simulacra somewhat. Per the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) they get half hit die, hp, skills, feats, and special abilities. Special abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) is a defined term encompassing extraordinary, supernatural, and spell like abilities. Divine rank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm) is none of the above (presumably why god's use proxies/avatars). So we're left with a bunch of 30 hit die outsiders, powerful to be sure, but not "divine" as I think you mean? :smallconfused:

I didn't say that they would have divine ranks or the associated powers and abilities, but they would be millions, and individually more powerful than almost anything in the Monster Manuals. I mentioned Lolth because, why bother creating armies of demons, drows and spider-monsters when you can have an utterly loyal overwhelming army like that?.


But even assume that Lolth does focus all her power on one area, the rest of the gods sit back and,....nod approvingly? Nah, evil gods will use the invasion as an opportunity to conduct their own power grab and good probably to reclaim what it can from her. It's a big old god war our there, invest too strongly in one place and you're vulnerable in another. Evil gods especially that try to take over a prime directly tend to get ganged up on (Tiamat comes to mind).

Even if divine retribution prevents her from actually attacking that way, she (and the other gods with Alter Reality) should have their Divine Realms (and in Lolth's case, Abyssal Layer) full of Simulacra created that way. Gods sometimes (very rarely, but it happens) have their divine realms attacked by other gods or archfiends (Lolth herself and Orcus come to mind) so it would be only natural to have the biggest and most powerful army you can create around.

But, in the adventures were you visit the Demonweb Pits, you only find regular drow, demons and spider monster in there. I find that weird.

Note: Iuz, another obvious candidate for that kind of shenanigan, doesn't have Alter Reality, so that explains why he doesn't use it to try take over Flanaess.

[Brookshw]

It's going to get kinda spoilery here isn't it. It is, isn't it.



I didn't say that they would have divine ranks or the associated powers and abilities, but they would be millions, and individually more powerful than almost anything in the Monster Manuals. I mentioned Lolth because, why bother creating armies of demons, drows and spider-monsters when you can have an utterly loyal overwhelming army like that?.

No, you didn't, just wasn't sure where you were going with this, especially when you referred to them as divine. Thanks for clarifying. To some extent I'd speculate that Lolth likely doesn't gain any divine power from a simulalcrum army as opposed to an army of actual followers to there's something to be said for that. Of course there's a lot to be said for a loyal overwhelming army.




Even if divine retribution prevents her from actually attacking that way, she (and the other gods with Alter Reality) should have their Divine Realms (and in Lolth's case, Abyssal Layer) full of Simulacra created that way. Gods sometimes (very rarely, but it happens) have their divine realms attacked by other gods or archfiends (Lolth herself and Orcus come to mind) so it would be only natural to have the biggest and most powerful army you can create around.

As to my above, I concur that there's value in having the army but when I consider the planar chess board that the gods are playing on and the time it would take to invest in the army creation as opposed to spending that same time working on expanding her influence in the primes and gaining more believers/followers, well, seems like it's a question of priorities. Not many gods get attacked on their home turf as far as I know so not much need to worry about this when there are gains to be made in other areas.

Another thing I'd consider is that gods kind of have a "thing", Lolth likes, well, I don't have the D&Dg with me but if memory serves, betrayal, evil, chaos, none of these things would really be part of the loyal overwhelming army so home wouldn't have that certain "homey" feel most gods go with.


But, in the adventures were you visit the Demonweb Pits, you only find regular drow, demons and spider monster in there. I find that weird. You find it weird that the devs didn't create an adventure that only TO characters or close to it could tackle?


Note: Iuz, another obvious candidate for that kind of shenanigan, doesn't have Alter Reality, so that explains why he doesn't use it to try take over Flanaess.


I don't disagree that this is a smart idea for a god to do on their home turf, possibly a prudent step if they can pull it off. I could definitely see Hextor or Vecna being especially inclined depending on the ROI vs. the ROI working on expanding their influence.