PDA

View Full Version : Putting ranks in skills



Esryth
2007-01-26, 03:32 PM
I'm playing a monk(sorta) right now in a party of mostly casters.

I have often been appointed on the basis of decent observational skill and overall liveability to be scout/trap set-offer.

In this I have found myself with the opportunity to roughly sketch a sigil or creature or some particular sight that I have observed that others in my party or NPCs encountered may know.

That being said, I have, on at least 6 occassions been in a position where I need to make a Craft(drawing) check. I have no ranks, but since Craft(drawing) is a skill that can be used untrained, I have made the rolls. It has escalated from funny to just a little scary that every Craft(drawing) check I have made I have rolled a natural 20.

It has long been my standing that placing skill ranks in a particular skill mark a player's experiences and what they have been working on. In a normal position, I would start putting ranks in Craft(drawing). I know you could also say Profession(artist), but we've debated among our group that this can go either way.

My DM is perfectly content with, the young, overly energetic monk, somehow finds it within himself to sit calmly and sketch out a sigil, although never being trained and it being just some innate talent. I feel very odd about not putting ranks in it, but at the same time, I know my luck and the first rank going in, I am going to roll a 1. This skill has been used for little more than aiding the other characters in their ability to identify a holy symbol of a deity I don't know or an organization, or to identify the Illithid as such.

So the question is, from a rules/mechanical/DM perspective, should I place ranks in Craft(drawing), Profession(artist), whatever, or should we go with the amusement of fate?

That being said, I'm probably still going to roll a 1 tonight.

DaMullet
2007-01-26, 04:04 PM
Hell no. If you got the touch, roll with it. Don't waste skills until your second low roll, if not later.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-26, 04:05 PM
Hell, if I was your DM, I'd have given you a free rank.

Darrin
2007-01-26, 04:12 PM
So the question is, from a rules/mechanical/DM perspective, should I place ranks in Craft(drawing), Profession(artist), whatever, or should we go with the amusement of fate?


Craft(Drawing) or Craft(Sketching) would probably be the way to go, although the distinction between Craft and Profession is fairly obtuse by RAW. Profession is supposedly reserved for service trades, or jobs that don't necessarily produce a finished product. Since you are creating a drawing, odds are you're dealing with Craft, which is generally preferrable because it's a class skill for *all* base classes, while Profession isn't.

One of my previous characters, a halfling barbarian, put a couple ranks into Craft(Brewing) partly because what barbarian doesn't like beer but mostly because the campaign was so low-gold that he couldn't afford to buy any. Although brewing is mentioned somewhere under Profession, it just seemed like a crime against nature that barbarians couldn't brew beer without cross-classing. My character didn't get to use it much after the "fish beer" incident.

I've also occasionally considered a few other unusual skills:

Craft(Macaroni Art) for a half-orc barbarian/blademaster.

Perform(War-Yodel) for a half-orc bard/battle howler (inspired by HOL).

Speak Language(Mumble) - actually a homage to an old WFRP campaign where none of us had Secret Language: Mumble. Could also be reworked as Speak Language(Boomhauer).

Thomas
2007-01-26, 04:13 PM
Since "luck" is just a description of a series of events where random chance has worked out, you're obviously better off putting ranks in a skill you want to use. Statistically, each rank is +5% to your odds of making those rolls. Superstition is silly.

Golthur
2007-01-26, 04:17 PM
I'll add that it can be fun to have no ranks and yet still roll amazingly well.

I had this with a gnome character who never rolled less than a 16 on any Handle Animal check with no ranks. He was convinced he had "the gift", and always offered to drive any oxcart, or do any other similar task.

It was a great deal of fun.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-26, 04:19 PM
I'm gonna fully agree with Darrin's point.

Though I'd consider room for a Profession Artist as representing someone whose actual artistic ability sucks but knows how to market those sucky drawings. The actual drawings would be represented by a (potentially untrained) Craft check, but use of the Profession skill would allow the "Artist" to obtain a greater price than the drawing is actually worth.

Golthur
2007-01-26, 04:22 PM
I'm gonna fully agree with Darrin's point.

Though I'd consider room for a Profession Artist as representing someone whose actual artistic ability sucks but knows how to market those sucky drawings. The actual drawings would be represented by a (potentially untrained) Craft check, but use of the Profession skill would allow the "Artist" to obtain a greater price than the drawing is actually worth.
I'd third that opinion. Profession (Artist) might also include being able to buy materials at a discount, and other sundry related tasks, but not the actual drawing itself.

Telonius
2007-01-26, 04:27 PM
If you go by blue collar/white collar, I'd say that sketching or drawing a piece of artwork would be a Craft skill.

But...


In this I have found myself with the opportunity to roughly sketch a sigil or creature or some particular sight that I have observed that others in my party or NPCs encountered may know.


... in the particular situation you're describing, I probably would have called for a Forgery check rather than a Craft check, to reproduce some piece of writing you've seen once.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-26, 04:31 PM
... in the particular situation you're describing, I probably would have called for a Forgery check rather than a Craft check, to reproduce some piece of writing you've seen once.
Either would be applicable. Remember, a skilled artist should be able to exactly replicate what he or she sees on the paper. Especially something as simple (relatively speaking) as a sigil.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-26, 04:31 PM
No, a Forgery check would be necessary if he wanted to duplicate a signature and show it to the party. A Craft check is sufficient for simply sketching something that he doesn't intend to fool anyone with.

EDIT: Note that I say "sufficient." You could make a case for using Forgery if you had more ranks in it. Craft (drawing) would mainly be used if Forgery was cross-class or if you wanted to draw something that wasn't a reproduction of writing (such as the Illithid; I doubt Forgery would work very well there). I could definately see synergy bonuses between the two.

clarkvalentine
2007-01-26, 04:33 PM
Craft(Drawing) or Craft(Sketching) would probably be the way to go, although the distinction between Craft and Profession is fairly obtuse by RAW...


My read of the RAW is that Profession is used to make money and only to make money. Craft is used to build stuff. Going purely by that, I'd say that a Craft check is in order here, as you're actually creating something.

Going off-menu, Profession is a woefully underutilized skill in the RAW. There's so much potential there that is going to waste.

Person_Man
2007-01-26, 04:40 PM
In my opinion, the situation you describe is silly.

First, why not just Take 20 on your drawing check? Are you that rushed for time?

Having said that, it's nifty fluff when a PC wants to take Craft (cooking) or something similar. But it doesn't make sense for a DM to make the least powerful PC who is stuck in the often dangerous and thankless task of Scout and forcing him to roll for it every time he wants to sketch out a map or something similar, making him feel like he should waste valuable Skill points on an otherwise useless Skill.

By DM fiat, I would rule that your high Wis and ranks in Spot grant you the basic ability to describe what you've seen, and that you could sketch it out with reasonable accuracy for your fellow party members in a few minutes time, as long as you are not being threatened while you do so. I would only require a Craft check if you tried to sell one of your drawings, or a Forgery check if you tried to perfectly copy a picture of some type.

Caelestion
2007-01-26, 06:22 PM
Crafts produce items to sell or use, whilst Professions run businesses, serve customers or do day-to-day careers. Craft is based on Intelligence, which deals with ingenuity, creativity and inspiration to create things afresh each time. Profession is based on Wisdom, which deals with handling the unexpected, reasoning things out with previous experience and handling matters in insight, intuition and accepted practice.

This is definitely a Craft skill - Craft: artist/painter, allowing you to paint, draw and sketch.

Esryth
2007-01-29, 09:35 AM
As far as the Craft vs. Profession, I would have to agree that this would be, at least in this case, since I'm not trying to sell the drawings.

I appreciate the feedback. I'll talk to my DM. Another thing to note is that the drawings are not always on paper or parchment. The first time scouting, I sketched a group's insignia in the dirt with a stick. I could see where that would warrant some sort of roll just because it's a primitive material.

Also, drawing something is necessary because I'm not always able to speak or be present at the time they are presented. If I go scouting and find a group wearing a particular symbol, and no one in the group can identify it, we can send it by messenger/magic to someone who can. So I do agree that I could just make the description, but it can also be beneficial to at least sketch it out, and rolling to confirm how well that information is conveyed is beneficial since there's a chance it could be misinterpretted.

Even still, we just leveled, and I will probably be putting several ranks in just in case, because as I agree with Thomas that each rank would ensure success, and as I said before, this situation is a bit contrary to my general nature. Saturday morning, after I level and put ranks in and draw something while scouting, I'll let you guys know how it turned out.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-29, 04:06 PM
I don't think that you can use a set DC for these checks, although I DO think you can take 10 or even 20 on it unless (as has been said) you're really pressed for time. Different types of situations are going to be harder or easier, depending.

For instance, "I saw a weird creature, it looks something like thiss:" (shooting for illithid) is going to be dead easy. Even a stick figure with head-tentacles would tip off anyone who could identify an illithid, probably. I'd say dc 10. On the other end of the spectrum, "This is the assassin's guild leader:" (wow, he looks just like the High Chancellor!) is going to take some serious skills. Ad hoc 25 or 30. Duplicating fairly complex runes (asian ideogram level) will be somewhere in between, unless you can copy them on-site, in which case it'd be easier. 15-20, maybe.

Esryth
2007-01-30, 03:21 PM
For instance, "I saw a weird creature, it looks something like thiss:" (shooting for illithid) is going to be dead easy. Even a stick figure with head-tentacles would tip off anyone who could identify an illithid, probably. I'd say dc 10. On the other end of the spectrum, "This is the assassin's guild leader:" (wow, he looks just like the High Chancellor!) is going to take some serious skills. Ad hoc 25 or 30. Duplicating fairly complex runes (asian ideogram level) will be somewhere in between, unless you can copy them on-site, in which case it'd be easier. 15-20, maybe.

And that's pretty much been the case. From what we've gone on thus far, my DM has just said it's pretty much as if the entire party had seen most of it, since I've rolled a 22(d20+Int mod of +2). And typically it isn't so much the person identified, as the emblem or the sigil, in cases as you point out with "High Chancellor".

I met a Harper and couldn't so much identify him, although my gruff description was enough for one of the party members to know him, but I sketched a symbol on his armor that I noticed and it was identified. And after making the distinction that this was a Harper and describing his generic traits, he was easily identified later on by the party.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-30, 03:27 PM
I think it seems like your DM is letting you use this in a helpful way, but isn't really putting you in situations where you have to succeed on a difficult check, or be screwed. More like "make a check, I'll tell you what you can convey based on how good it is." Is that accurate? In that case, I'd say putting ranks in would be mostly for flavor purposes, to represent your growing skill as an artist.

Esryth
2007-02-06, 11:35 AM
I think it seems like your DM is letting you use this in a helpful way, but isn't really putting you in situations where you have to succeed on a difficult check, or be screwed. More like "make a check, I'll tell you what you can convey based on how good it is." Is that accurate? In that case, I'd say putting ranks in would be mostly for flavor purposes, to represent your growing skill as an artist.

That's pretty accurate Spider. At some point eventually if somebody's gonna figure something out, then they're gonna. Ie. there are 2 illithids over there. I mean eventually it'll happen. It's just to our advantage.

I wound up putting in some points just because that's my nature. I feel like skill points should reflect what you do in game. It was just in this situation it was amusing b/c I was never trained or even that it would come up, just asked to draw something out once and i did well, and from then on it became apparent that I may have some talent in it after all.

I decided I'm going to start practicing.

Saph
2007-02-06, 11:55 AM
Yay, another user of the skill! One of my characters has Craft (drawing). Her skill's up to a +17 by now - uses I've made of it include sketching the other party members whenever they're spending too long arguing, sketching portraits for a gold piece each while I've got some time to kill in a city, and making a line-perfect copy of a map we found in a dungeon. :) (That last one actually turned out to be useful.)

Why not buy some masterwork drawing tools? They only cost 55 gp, and give you a +2 circumstance bonus. If you've really got money to burn, you could commission a wizard to make you some Gloves of Artistic Drawing or something. :)

- Saph

Esryth
2007-02-06, 12:35 PM
Next time I can walk into a town without getting shot at or captured I'll look into that purchase. Not a bad idea with the wizards too. We have time and the money, and a good bit of the materials, just we don't get around to much shopping, again, what with our outlawed nature.

Too many groups want to kill us and/or use us for some reason and we're pretty infamous, so we like to lay low for the most part, unless an ally or favorable situation presents itself.

Melrob
2007-02-06, 12:47 PM
I would say that unless you're going to use painting etc as a character hook then no, don't spend points on it. Your sigils etc could just be very simplistic designs that are merely functional and show no grasp of colour, perspective and many of the elements that go into 'art' proper.

Though I do agree with your idea of putting the ranks into the skills you're using often, I tend to leave that to things like 'riding'...after I've been riding a horse for 10 hours a day for a week and a level. That makes sense to me. Just jumping onto the horse, riding a few feet and jumping off again, continously, isn't really riding and wouldn't 'in my mind' be a good example of the learning process.

...though Im sure some will argue that :@P

Esryth
2007-02-07, 08:34 AM
Just jumping onto the horse, riding a few feet and jumping off again, continously, isn't really riding and wouldn't 'in my mind' be a good example of the learning process.

...though Im sure some will argue that :@P

But would that amount of a skill be enough for, say, Jump? My original purpose for starting this thread was not only to get some feedback on my situation but also to question when other people feel their characters to put ranks in skills.

I agree with Ride. I wouldn't put ranks in ride for just a brief exposure, even if on a semi-regular basis, or at least not near as many as when I am actually riding a horse for a prolonged period.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-02-07, 09:22 AM
I once had a rogue that had ranks in Profession(chef) and I made sandwich bags with ten "charges."
One of my co-players wanted me to take Perform(iron chef). I thought about it.
Of course, for realism, whenever I rolled to make us lunch, I never served anything that wasn't higher than a ten on the roll.
The worst part is I specialized in SANDWICHES, and I STILL botched checks.

Esryth
2007-02-07, 12:50 PM
We had a guy who put points in Craft(sandwich) once...it was funny. He got over like a 40 once I think, enough to attract extraplanar creatures...but it was Ravenloft, so.....

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-07, 02:18 PM
So it was a V&witch?

clarkvalentine
2007-02-07, 08:41 PM
We had a guy who put points in Craft(sandwich) once...it was funny. He got over like a 40 once I think, enough to attract extraplanar creatures...

"That is because I roll twenties."

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/12/10